251

One example from the revised Code of Conduct of a comment that will now be considered "rude" is "You could google this in 5 seconds."

Indeed, my usual comment for cases like this is the relatively neutral [I downvoted because research must be done to ask a good question](http://idownvotedbecau.se/noresearch/)

This raises an interesting question, though: what if they could have found the answer in 5 seconds on Google Search? In cases like this, is it wrong to point out the obvious? I've seen plenty of questions where literally copying and pasting their question title into Google Search gives dozens - or even hundreds - of high-quality results. Granted, this comment kind of implies that the OP is being lazy, but really, aren't they?

Put differently: couldn't you argue that implying that someone is being lazy isn't as bad as actually being lazy?

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  • 193
    But if you imply that they're being lazy, they might be upset that you pointed it out and stop asking lazy questions that could have been easily googled in 5 seconds.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 20, 2018 at 21:05
  • 48
    It's not laziness, just time management. If there is an army of naive drones who can be conned into doing your searching/collating for you, why do it yourself? There is plenty of other stuff, real stuff that nobody else can be persuaded to do for free, that beeds to be done instead, (and, if not, the bars are open). Commented Jul 20, 2018 at 21:17
  • 28
    @MartinJames That's true in some number of cases, but when typing your question into google and looking at the first result gives you a great answer, typing up your question on SO, posting it, and then waiting just 3 minutes for someone to answer is still way more work and takes much longer. Those are even more infuriating then when someone is posting their homework question that would take them 15 minutes and that someone answers in 5, in which it's at least in their own best interest, even if it's bad for the site.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 20, 2018 at 21:32
  • 10
    This question seems to miss the point of what the CoC says by virtue of not seeing the forest for the trees. The important thing is not what you are saying but how you say it. There are ways to indicate that you can search for and find the answer to a simple question on Google without being unfriendly or rude.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 20, 2018 at 23:57
  • 104
    That comment is now "rude"? Jesus. Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 0:50
  • 15
    @DanBeaulieu I saw a question today asking what .net reflection is. If they knew the term, why couldn't they look it up themself? Honestly, I suspect that they usually just want someone to spoon feed them the information. Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 2:44
  • 4
    @EJoshuaS I’m 100% not talking about that one single post. Rather, I’m speaking in regards to the broad generalization that folks who come here with seemingly trivial questions are lazy. I certainly wasn’t, I just didn’t know what I was after. I’m not trying to be difficult, it just resonates with me. Made me want to quit trying to be a part StackOverflow, when I started. Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 2:49
  • 30
    "What if they COULD google their question in 5 seconds?" - Then google it yourself, and if there is a Stack Overflow answer, close it as a duplicate. Personally, I get more satisfaction from dupe hammering than I do from trying to teach people (to google) who don't want to be taught. Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 6:40
  • 15
    @TylerH "There are ways to indicate that you can search for and find the answer to a simple question on Google without being unfriendly or rude." - but are there? (Without actually providing an answer, at least, which people who post these comments seem to want to avoid doing.) I don't see what those ways would look like.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 7:55
  • 6
    Maybe has been mentioned but many questions where "google in 5 secs" would have sorted for many SO users, in fact hasn't worked for the OP as they simply lack the required knowledge to implement the solution (however basic it may seem to others). They come to SO looking for someone to write the solution for them and then there is a long draw out set of "explain this" to me questions. P.s. I am feeling moany today.
    – QHarr
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 9:08
  • 14
    @DanBeaulieu: If you have internet access (which we assume is true for people getting questions onto SO), then you have access to a wide variety of free tutorials, which are the electronic equivalent of books.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 18:48
  • 4
    Yup, that’s true. But again, tutorials don’t cover even a fraction of the problems a new programmer can run into. Having said that, I’m 100% tapping out of this conversation. I can’t believe how much flack I’m receiving for just stating that we shouldn’t label people as lazy so easily. Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 18:52
  • 9
    Why should any user ever need to go to ANY third-party site outside of SO? Should we start flagging "this question already has an answer at quora.com"? If not, why is a random set of google results any different.
    – Alex R
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 23:39
  • 8
    It's funny how many times I google a problem and the first result is a stackoverflow question where the first comment is something like "google it".
    – ChrisD
    Commented Jul 22, 2018 at 16:45
  • 6
    Not everyone gets the same results from a Google search due to bubbling (discussion). I suspect (without having done the experiment, admittedly) that long-time SO users with lots of coding questions in their search histories are likely to get more productive results from a Google search than new programmers without that history. Even if there's not a bubble, my personal experience is that I can tell from the Google-result snippets whether a result is likely to be helpful, and I doubt newbies can do so as quickly.
    – cxw
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 14:48

18 Answers 18

152

We need to stop pontificating.

Without full buy-in to what the scope of the site is, the obvious answer (yeah we don't really want to support those questions) isn't going to be the obvious answer.

We need to be clear on the scope of the site.

Are we catering to the Googleable answered questions? Are we catering to the hard and/or unanswered questions? Are we catering to the questions which somehow fit in the middle?

No one's officially clarified this yet, so...for now, if you point out the obvious, we're going to get called out for being "impolite".

Then again, there is a way to tell someone that they could just Google this without coming across as a jerk, which may be the finer point being missed.

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  • 7
    When you say "Googable answered questions" do you mean ones with answers already on SO? If they aren't answered here, they are definitely in scope. Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 18:00
  • 12
    Re scope and how to word this: My technique has been "Can you please show us the code you have so far?" because 1) these questions almost never have an MVCE, 2) adding an MVCE tends to make them look a lot more like real questions, and 3) if they don't show their code, then this is a nice unambiguous close reason that doesn't involve arguments over how much research is "enough research."
    – Kevin
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 23:15
  • 5
    How dare we ask people to not put us to search their questions for them!?
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 22, 2018 at 12:20
  • 8
    "Then again, there is a way to tell someone that they could just Google this without coming across as a jerk, which may be the finer point being missed." Please provide a Minimal, Complete, Verifiable Example of this ;)
    – Hack-R
    Commented Jul 22, 2018 at 18:33
  • 8
    @Hack-R: I lack the prerequisite credentials on public speaking and interpersonal communications to illustrate this succinctly in a simple Meta post, but what I like to do is pretend I'm talking with a respected family member or a colleague at work. If I wouldn't say to them what I'm saying to you online, it's not worth typing. That barometer varies since there are people who routinely hurl abuse between colleagues and family members, so I can't say it applies for everyone.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 22, 2018 at 19:19
  • 2
    @Makoto even with family members and colleagues you adopt a level of security where you can say things more to the point, sometimes going as far as to provide a stern reality check. You don't ever need to go there on Stack Overflow. I've made the comparison in the recent past to just act as if you're doing the introduction round on your first day of work. No matter who you are, you know to be painfully neutral, put up a smile and stay far away from overbearing language and controversial topics as to make the first impression at the very least not a bad one, but hopefully a good one.
    – Gimby
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 13:35
  • 3
    Sorrry to say this but hard questions are nearly all subjective or too broad and will get closed or downvoted. Stack overflow is just not a good fit to ask those kind of questions.
    – Gudradain
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 14:45
  • 2
    @Gudradain: I use a definition of "hard" that is the opposite of "easy". How to manipulate arrays in Java? Easy. The difference between bean and XML injection in Spring? Hard. Performing a self-join on a table? Easy. Configuring and instrumenting an industry-based application with scant documentation? Hard.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 14:50
  • 2
    @Gudradain: If you're saying then that Stack Overflow's scope should be to cater to the easier questions - or the questions that are within reach of anyone to actually answer - then you have tragically missed the point of the site.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 14:50
  • 5
    I'm saying that Stack Overflow's is not the place for hard questions because you can't ask many of the hard questions in programming. Technical problems are generally easy. The hard parts of programming in how to structure your code, how to structure your data, how to to structure the different system interacting with one another but as far as I have seen those questions are not welcomed here.
    – Gudradain
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 14:58
  • 2
    @Gudradain: Hard problems are not subjective. Subjective questions include things in which there is at least one ambiguous position or opinion on the subject, which includes how one should structure or slice their code. Hard questions are simply that - they're hard. The amount of information on the Internet about them is virtually nonexistent or the situation is unlike one you've ever encountered before for any environment. I've asked two hard questions before and both were welcomed here.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 15:08
  • 3
    "concrete and unambiguous" : That's the problem right there. You are attracting only "fix my code" easy technical question as that's the only thing that fit the criteria. Things are not all black and white in programming.
    – Gudradain
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 15:18
  • 1
    @Gudradain 'The hard parts of programming in how to structure your code, how to structure your data, how to to structure the different system interacting with one another' yes indeed but 99.9% of all such questions are too broad for an SO Q&A, or are grossly underspecified, or both. It's not possible to help with most system-level issues on SO. Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 18:00
  • 2
    @Gudradain Software Engineering is the site for whiteboard style design questions, rather than programming questions. Note that I'm not a regular, so check out their tour and FAQ to see what types of design level questions are and aren't appropriate.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 18:44
  • 1
    I would like to add that I have also asked on the topic: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/366247/… - the upvoted answer at least seems to imply we should answer if the content does not exist on SO.
    – kabanus
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 19:29
94

The problem you are putting your attention on is one of the reasons why I almost stopped answering questions on Stack Overflow.

I would love to have an online community of professional programmers. Where professional programmers ask questions and where professional programmers give answers. Stack Overflow is not such a place. For example, I just looked at the first 10 questions under the "PHP" tag, and I found no answerable questions at all. Other tags are not that much better. It was clear to me, that most of the question askers there are certainly not "professional programmers".

So, by catering to the needs of non-programmers who just want to ask questions, you (SO) are losing at least one professional programmer (me), and I am certainly not the only one. I'm waiting for the moment when someone creates a site for software developers that is just like Stack Overflow, but without all the noobs. As soon as that site becomes available, I will leave Stack Overflow and never look back. The only reason I'm still here, is because there is no alternative.

IMHO, we shouldn't be rude to newbies. We should just not allow them on the site and eject them from the site. This could be done in a polite way. But this is not my decision, because I have no authority here. But when I see a comment like "how are we even supposed to help you?" under a question that is totally unanswerable, I will continue to upvote it.

End of rant.

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  • 32
    But... just close those questions. Done.
    – user202729
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 15:25
  • 34
    @user202729: i could. the problem is.. I would like to answer questions. I cannot answer questions because there are almost no good, answerable questions. And this is frustrating, so I leave.
    – Michael
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 15:27
  • 4
    @user202729: What do you mean by "there are no way to know if a question is "unanswerable" without looking at them" - that's obvious. Do you think I decided that a question is unanswerable, just by looking at it's question ID??
    – Michael
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 15:28
  • 22
    if just 60% of the questions are bad, I wouldn't care much. But if 99,99% of the questions are bad, that's another story.
    – Michael
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 15:30
  • 10
    I'm not sure about that. If you're saying that "there is no answerable question", that will probably not change if the unanswerable questions are cleared. If you're saying that "the answerable ones are hidden under the unanswerable mess", then... ... yes it's a problem, and the solution is to close/delete the questions faster.
    – user202729
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 15:30
  • 6
    @Michael - The proportion of good questions seems to be heavily weighted towards certain tags. For example, I spend my SO time almost exclusively on the f# tag right now, where there are rather few questions (1-2 per day) but 75-80% of them are good, answerable questions. On the php or javascript tags, OTOH... it seems like 2% of the questions are good.
    – rmunn
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 17:07
  • 5
    @rmunn: i think this question is very interesting. The title is "Meaning of \ in Haskell identifier", and it has been marked as a duplicate of "Getting started with Haskell". We should close more questions this way ;) Can we have foreach programmingLanguage a "Getting started with $programmingLanguage" question? ;)
    – Michael
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 18:08
  • 8
    @Max: I like to use "duck typing" here. if it looks, acts and talks like a professional programmer, it is a professional programmer ;) . One could argue that this is a superficial way of looking at things, but I think it is reasonable to see it this way. But I agree with your point: there are definitively excellent coders who didn't work professionally yet. and there are definitively professional coders who don't know how to program. including the first group but excluding the second group would be a good second approximation. (the first approx. was "only allow professional coders")
    – Michael
    Commented Jul 22, 2018 at 12:30
  • 17
    I (140k rep) have essentially stopped answering because there are no answerable C# questions anymore. Many questions are possible but frustrating to answer. Too many noobs is a good point. They don't cooperate in being helped.
    – usr
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 14:14
  • 6
    A professional programmer can still be brand new to a particular language, and ask questions for that language that sound pretty "noob".
    – Chad
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 16:48
  • 5
    So folks who have never been to college and are trying to better themselves by learning how to program are not allowed here? Harsh. (the efforts around making sure new users learn how to ask good questions are the right direction IMHO) Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 19:01
  • 11
    @AndrewGrothe: no. I said I would appreciate a site for professional programmers. do you know that there are forums for medical doctors? these forums would be totally useless if everyone were allowed and you got 10000 questions about migraine every day. do you think it is harsh that these forums exclude non-MDs like us?
    – Michael
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 19:09
  • 7
    @ouflak It is exactly that "elitist" attitude that led to SO becoming popular, so yeah... good luck with your strawman.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Jul 26, 2018 at 8:40
  • 7
    @IanKemp: exactly. I had become tired of arguing. Furthermore, this kind of "elitist" attitude is exactly how offline communities work by default. Universities are not overrun by people who failed at high school. When I meet former co-workers, they don't bring noob programmers to the meeting who repeatedly ask questions about NullPointerExceptions. - An online community on the other hand is non-elitist by default. And letting everyone in is much easier than doing some kind of filtering. Most online communities are non-elitist. Still noobs prefer stack overflow over quora.
    – Michael
    Commented Jul 26, 2018 at 9:04
  • 11
    @ouflak Sadly the staff of Stack Exchange have been tasked with making money from the site, which is orthogonal to keeping it high quality. The people like me who care about quality have a problem with that, and we're fighting against it because it's the right thing to do, not necessarily because we believe we'll win.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Jul 26, 2018 at 9:23
78

Great question... (and thanks to @Makoto for clarifying which clarification we need!)


...is it wrong to point out the obvious?
...if they could have found the answer in 5 seconds on Google?

IMO it's not wrong as long as it's done politely, and in fact is an important part of the learning process.

What if your high school teachers were never allowed to tell you to put some effort into finding a solution on your own. I'm not suggesting that anyone be as rude as my high school teachers were, but a key part of learning is learning how to learn... (Think "Give a man a fish...")

What's obvious to you is not obvious to everyone.

I think that in most cases, the OP did not post a Google-able question on SO simply because they wanted to create extra work for others. I think that most would much prefer to have the 5-second answer that Google (or SO Search) often can provide... if they knew how to ask for it.

'Effective Searching' is a learned skill.

I'd like to see a wiki like a "Programmers Guide to Google Searches" to which we could (politely) direct users, not unlike how we currently use [ask] or [help/on-topic]. The fact is, Google does have answers to almost anything, but some tips and tricks aren't obvious. There's even an Advanced Googling Course straight from the source!


Bigger fish.

I don't consider it any more "rude" to provide an example Google search than the "Duplicate Question" notice:

This question already has an answer here: (duh!)
. . .
This has been marked as duplicate by these 5 people. (what's wrong with you?!)


Edit:

This question got me reflecting on times I've recommended Google.

Written communication doesn't always carry the intended sentiment, and when combined with our states of 'HALT' (Hungry/Angry/Lonely/Tired), we can make mistakes.

So I'll give point the finger at myself and share three varying times, I've recommended a Google - at least one of which is pretty ugly in retrospect. (Query yours here.)


good GOOD

Q: Scan attached files in a new e-mail

I am currently trying to learn VBA for Outlook ... Could you please show me the path to do the following ...

good example

Several relevant links shared by multiple users in a polite manner, with an OP inviting different solutions - even without an answer, this to me, is the "gold" that can make SO such a valuable resource... I learned something even while in the process of helping another. "Win-win!"


bad BAD

Q: RDLC Indian Currency to Words Conversion

I used above code to get the result, the one that I'm looking for is like ... Is there any way to get the required result, help me out of this?

bad example

...ouch - looking back, not only was I an absolutely condescending ass, but while lecturing about grammar and Google, I didn't both to check my own spelling or grammar. Terrible.


ugly UGLY

Q: How to hide connection string in app config from user

All my grids and combo boxes bound to dataset/adapter which the connection string ... I tried ... but my app returned an exception.

ugly example

..."ugly" in that it was a back-and-forth involving multiple users, although thankfully it turned out well everyone involved managed to see each other's points of view by the end, the post eventually resulted in thanks-all-around and the OP self-answering.

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  • 14
    You allude to this at the beginning, and I think it is key: finding what you don't know you don't know is harder than just finding the thing that you don't know. There's no debate that the volume of lazy and bad questions is too high, but this is also a global site with people of all tounges trying to solve problems, and trying to translate their native 'technicalese' into English 'technicalese.' I recall having to work through German Active Directory manuals ~20 years ago, when I was just learning German; ugh. The short is that "just Google it" is not a magic pill that weeds out the lazy. Commented Jul 22, 2018 at 18:45
  • 2
    Plus one for The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly reference. I love Tuco. Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 5:42
  • 10
    Every day I'm on the site I come across questions where I can (and do) copy paste the title of the question into google, and the first result is the answer to their question. Yes, there are cases where someone clearly couldn't have found the answer to their question on their own, even when it's out there. Those questions are manageable. It's all the ones that very demonstrably didn't even try that aren't.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 13:06
  • 14
    @Servy - agreed. Wouldn't it be handy if the new SO Question Wizard included exactly that feature for the OP -- especially new OP's: a list of the first 2 or 3 Google Search results (easily obtained with the Google Search API), in the same way that the interface already shows similar existing SO questions? That would make a big dent in this issue, wouldn't you agree?
    – ashleedawg
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 13:20
  • 2
    @ashleedawg I find it unlikely. People that can't be bothered to even search for their question on Google aren't even going to look at the results in a situation like that. Often enough the top recommended question answers their question well. Clearly people don't let that stop them.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 13:30
  • 3
    “as long as its done politely” — politeness is a relative concept that I don’t think should be a focus of the user community. Sure, our interactions may be more affective when applying some manners and respect, but shouldn’t that be up to the end user on how they choose to communicate? Before you know it some admin is going to start banning people for being impolite and I don’t think we should argue that an abuse of power does occur from time to time. Let’s permit humanity to endure and allow people to address others how they feel is fitting.
    – vol7ron
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 17:12
  • 4
    Why is someone who's self-proclaimed to never even have used vb.net allowed to attempt answering a vb.net question? I'm annoyed when users unfamiliar with a topic claim the question "is too vague" or "trivial to answer by Googling". These commenters lack the context that comes from having attempted to use that particular technology.
    – Alex R
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 18:37
  • 1
    @vol7ron - "as long as its done politely" - meaning: every user should self-moderate, being aware that it's civility/politeness matters... I didn't imply that it's up to any one person to judge others. If a particular post or set of posts is cause for concern and potentially requires deletion, only a majority-vote of an appropriate sample size can be fairly used to make a final decision.
    – ashleedawg
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 23:07
  • 1
    I think the "sample size" needs to be considered carefully because, for example, IMO, the number of votes required to close a post should vary depending on how many users there are overall, and how many are active in that tag/topic/area. In the early days of SO, any one person with 3000 rep could close a question. When SO reached 25k users, Atwood hesitantly implemented 3-vote close/re-open vote minimum. When SO hit 65k rep it was deemed necessary to increase to 5 votes. Now, SO has about 145 times that many users - maybe time to increase number of req'd votes to close...
    – ashleedawg
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 23:07
  • Perhaps. I’m just worried that the sensitivities to speech and word choice has been causing harm when it comes to freedom of expression. The message sent is people don’t have the freedom to be who they want to be. To my knowledge it’s much easier for a select few admins to revoke something than the other way around. It’s easier to close a question than re-open it, even after corrections are made. So I’m sensitive when people start arguing for social order in a community run forum. As I understand it, you’re advocating for standard social rules, which I don’t disagree with.
    – vol7ron
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 23:15
  • @AlexR - That's likely a common POV from any user who gets a "Too Vague" VTC. Obviously, nobody intentionally posts "too little information." All we can hope is that those users are at least willing to take suggestions where offered. Coding knowledge is not a linear object, contrary to some attitudes (like "if you don't know X, you definitely don't know Y", lol) Not everyone in a community of 10 million will have the knowledge/behaviour that others "expect" but with the right attitude plus a willingness to learn & take suggestions, benefit can be maximized for everyone.
    – ashleedawg
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 23:23
  • 1
    It's amazing what both an "asker and answerer" can learn from a properly structured Google Search - even if one or both has little existing knowledge of the platform. (Everyone starts somewhere.) For example, my experience has been in varying forms of VB since long before the "V" was attached to it, but have hardly even seen C#, yet some of my highest-scoring answers are in C#. Yet another way that one can benefit from answering, as much or more than by asking. Pretty amazing how that works, and how like-minded, generally good people the vast majority of this site's members are..
    – ashleedawg
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 23:31
  • 'Obviously, nobody intentionally posts "too little information' - they do, every Sunday, to try and obscure their low/no effort homework questions. Commented Jul 29, 2018 at 10:29
  • @MartinJames - You've got me there.... Interesting that you mention Sundays... it was only a theory of mine until you just confirmed.
    – ashleedawg
    Commented Jul 29, 2018 at 18:37
  • 1
    AND is correct in numbers like that outside the US, and it is also used in the US.
    – philipxy
    Commented Nov 8, 2018 at 5:40
28

I certainly defer to the others here who are active participants -- but our general philosophy is to heavily favor answerers.

We feel that the world is awash in questions, but not answers. Answers are the real unit of work in any Q&A system. Therefore, the only logical thing to do is to maximize the happiness and enjoyment of answerers.

If this means aggressively closing unworthy or uninteresting questions, so be it. Without a community of people willing to answer questions, it really doesn't matter if there are questions at all, does it?

https://unix.meta.stackexchange.com/a/595/41104

9
  • 3
    OP should have googled better their question :P
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 22, 2018 at 12:27
  • 19
    This has been proven a lie again and again. At best, this is obsolete. The current management at SO heavily favors askers (because askers make the most noise), then searchers (because they make the most traffic), then answerers. When they talk about "unwelcoming" comments, they do not mean "unwelcoming to answerers", do they?
    – user3458
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 16:06
  • 1
    @Arkadiy funny that you say that, because askers is the thing I less see on meta. Now twitter...
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 16:07
  • 1
    Yep - this just confirms my "most noise" hypothesis. Twitter is a more public forum, is it not?
    – user3458
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 16:10
  • @Arkadiy Just to be clear, you're asserting that it's no longer the case that SO as a company believes this quote to be true, not that the statement itself isn't actually true, right? Or are you asserting both things?
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 27, 2018 at 15:27
  • @Servy, You are correct. I am asserting that at some point the company acted according to the statement in question, but it has not been the case for a very long time. I also personally think that the statement is correct, whether SO currently supports it or not. But I am an answerer myself, so I am biased. All I ask is that people should stop bringing this quote up. It's no longer relevant to how SO does things.
    – user3458
    Commented Jul 27, 2018 at 16:57
  • @Arkadiy well, if the company doesn't favor answerers... what are we doing here?
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 27, 2018 at 17:38
  • 1
    @Braiam Trying to do a good deed in an increasingly unwelcoming environment.
    – user3458
    Commented Jul 27, 2018 at 17:42
  • @Arkadiy ha! I see what you did there.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 27, 2018 at 17:48
25

Put differently: couldn't you argue that implying that someone is being lazy isn't as bad as actually being lazy?

Debatable, but not relevant. It is not up to us to point out other people's personal flaws.

My advice:

  • If you think a Question is lazy, skip it. Move on. Spend your time on Questions that you think are worth your time.

  • If you think a Question is egregiously lazy, downvote it. No comment. Then move on.

A comment on another answer:

In that case, there's an obvious solution: CV as dupe. Why even bother to comment?

Or ... don't even bother. Frankly if a question is egregiously lazy, then the OP doesn't even deserve the help of a dup closure ... which entails me making an effort to find an appropriate dup question for them. (IMO)


What if they could have found the answer in 5 seconds on Google Search?

Maybe they couldn't ... due to poor language skills, or not knowing the correct (IT) terms, or not understanding how to get Google to give relevant search results.

And maybe they did find it, but they did not understand it.

We cannot tell. Best approach is to leave the topic of laziness out of any comms with the OP.


We can't solve the problem of the flood of poor quality questions. Leave it to SE management to come up with something that is practical.

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    Sorry but as someone who cares about the quality of content on Stack Overflow, I just cannot agree with the “move on and spend your time on better questions” mentality. If I don’t do something about the question the moment I find it, chances are pretty high that someone will come around and just answer it, feeding the lazy behavior of the asker. – So yes, I am kind of required to spend a bit of time to find a duplicate and get the question closed quickly…
    – poke
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 12:38
  • 5
    Being lazy is a personal flaw, but I don't agree that is shouldn't be pointed out when it becomes a problem for other people. When you see someone leaving garbage on a street, do you skip it and move on, do you pick it up, or do you tell them to pick it up?
    – artem
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 16:21
  • 2
    Maybe they couldn't ... due to (...) - or maybe they're in China?
    – hanshenrik
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 16:58
  • 13
    "If you think a Question is lazy, skip it. Move on. Spend your time on Questions that you think are worth your time" And then stop answering questions on SO at all, because its just not worth the effort to find decent questions. I'm sure that will really help with the quality here.
    – Andy
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 17:00
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    High-probability homework questions from low-rep users (Fibonacci sequence, Sieve of Eratosthenes, any SQL query against tables name Employee, Customer, or Student, etc) should IMO be CV'd with "Off Topic > Questions seeking debugging help...". Or you can just refer them to geeksprogramming who apparently are selling programming-for-cheaters services over the Web. Free enterprise at work. I wonder how much they charge..? (Of course, at a company-wide level it's not "cheating" - it's "out-sourcing"! Big difference! BIG difference!!!) Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 18:16
  • 10
    If "we cannot tell", then we cannot help them. Requiring questions to state what has already been tried, what resources they found, what errors they got, is not just rules for the sake of rules. Those things actually are the bare minimum to get answers which the OP can understand, otherwise they're right back in the situation of "they found the answer but do not understand", meaning they are no better off for asking and the time of everyone involved has been wasted.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 18:51
  • 5
    Of course we can help them. Given enough time and patience you could help them understand with a new answer to a new question. Whether you will actually help them cannot be predicted. Whether >>you<< should try is up to you.
    – Stephen C
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 23:39
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    But really the point about not being able to tell if people are genuine ... or lazy ... is not about whether we should help them. This is about whether or not we should tell them they are lazy!
    – Stephen C
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 23:45
  • 3
    "And then stop answering questions on SO at all, because its just not worth the effort to find decent questions. I'm sure that will really help with the quality here." - 1) I am starting to come to that conclusion myself. 2) I some back to the point that I made on another answer: it is not our responsibility to fix the quality issue ... and we can't.
    – Stephen C
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 23:48
  • 2
    @BobJarvis sigh... that reason only applies to questions asking for debugging help. How-to style questions are not inherently off-topic, and do not explicitly require code. They just need to be on-topic, reasonably scoped, and well defined. They may or may not be made clearer or more reasonably scoped by the presence of code or prior research, but such is not explicitly required of such questions. The important message to get across to users asking overly broad how-to questions is that they need to break their problem up into it's component parts, then attempt to solve each individually. ...
    – user4639281
    Commented Jul 22, 2018 at 5:36
  • 3
    A question asking how to implement one of the component parts of a task may be reasonably scoped whereas a solution to the entire problem may not. Or, the solution to the entire problem may be reasonably scoped if the problem itself is not too complex. It's really subjective and not nearly as clear cut as these blanket statement comments with such content as 'High-probability homework questions from low-rep users ... should IMO be CV'd with "Off Topic > Questions seeking debugging help..." make it out to be.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jul 22, 2018 at 5:38
  • 4
    @BenVoigt Stating what was tried or what research has been done has never been a requirement. It's a nice thing to see, but it is not and has never been a requirement. Some users falsely tout it as such and help confuse matters further, but there is no such requirement. In fact, there is a ban on comments whose only content is "What have you tried?" as well as comments that start with that are immediately destroyed on the first flag.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jul 22, 2018 at 5:40
  • 1
    @BenVoigt questions must be closed to be deleted. The rest of your argument completely falls apart after that. "What have you tried?" Is banned because it is irrelevant and useless, just as most often the irrelevant or useless "attempt" that the OP might include after relentless pestering from users who don't understand the scope of Stack Overflow
    – user4639281
    Commented Jul 22, 2018 at 16:41
  • 2
    @TinyGiant: Questions count toward bans based on votes, not based on closure or being deleted. And it isn't true that questions have to be closed before deletion -- you can't cast a delete vote on an open question but the roomba doesn't care.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jul 22, 2018 at 17:37
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    @TinyGiant: I don't know about you, but I find the best questions come from people who have already tried helping themselves, and are asking about how the bigger picture that the reference documentation doesn't cover -- how to combine functions, interactions between function preconditions and language rules, and so forth. For these things, good answers go beyond stating a simple fact and explain why, alternate designs, tradeoffs, and so forth. These are useful and interesting. Regurgitating official documentation is no more fun than pointing out typos.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jul 22, 2018 at 20:05
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There is a simple course of action to take when a question can easily be googled.

Does googling bring up a good response On Stack Overflow?

Yes:

Close as duplicate. If it was really easy to find the dup, and you are in a teaching mood, you can politely show them how they could have found their answer faster by using a search engine.

No:

Upvote1. As per the faq, these questions are allowed and are helpful. We don't have a "duplicate of offical documentation" close option for a reason.


What isn't needed is rudeness designed at highlighting their inability to use search as a tool effectively. That is a waste of your time, hurts their feelings, and slanders the reputation of everyone on SO.

Just because you resent incompetent users does not give you the right to ruin our good name by bullying them.

1. Except when other factors fail (i.e. clarity of writing).

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    "What isn't needed is rudeness" but isn't it arguably rude to ask a lazy question that wastes everyone's time as it was easy to search for the answer? "and slanders the reputation of everyone on SO" and poor questions that help no-one else that are googleable and duped many times also slanders the reputation of the site by filling it with low quality content.
    – James
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 22:36
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    @James Two wrongs don't make a right. And I think half the problem is you mistake a lack of knowledge and ability for laziness, hence the resentment. Everyone on this post thinks they are mocking people who are lazy and want others to do the work, when they are actually often mocking users who are confused and unable. It really is saddening. And I'm not saying bad content shouldn't be closed and downvoted. All I'm saying is that everyone would do better if people did so while controlling their attitudes. Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 22:38
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    Hmm, I know the difference between lack of knowledge and someone who has no care to even try to search. This is confirmed when I suggest things like viewing their error log file (teach a man to fish etc) and they either reply with nothing at all for hours until someone answers and suddenly they burst into life, or they respond with a less harsh "STFU if you don't want to answer". I'm not talking about those who are not lazy, I'm talking about those who are, so I think you're defending a ghost here.
    – James
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 22:42
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    @James You are now talking about people who are rude, abusive, and unwilling to be helped. That is a different discussion. Even then, being rude back achieves nothing. Downvote, flag, why waste time writing a response back that will only inflame them even further. Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 22:48
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    No I'm talking about "lazy" as per my first comment. They are lazy because they don't want to engage in comments to figure it out themselves, they are lazy because they don't go look at their error logs. Lack of knowledge would be they did not know about the existence of PHP error logs so say "hey thanks for the advice, where do I find those amazing-sounding error logs".
    – James
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 22:49
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    Assuming you can identify this kind of user before even commenting, why bother commenting? I still don't see how this justifies rudeness. If you know they are bad, you aren't going to teach them anything by leaving a rude remark. Just leave a downvote for the bad question and move on. Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 22:53
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    There are two paths here: One: They lack knowladge/ability to find an effective solution in an existing post. In this case politely teaching them how to help themselves will work. Two: They are a lazy rude unteachable user like you talk about. Pretty much nothing can be gained by commenting. Why bother? --- Bottom line is that anyone who deserves rudeness doesn't deserve a response at all. Responding will only help to make you (and the rest of the power users) look more like them. Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 22:55
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    I'm not sure what your point is here. you keep changing what you are discussing and putting words in my mouth. I merely commented on something you said in your answer and your first response was "two wrongs don't make a right". That's like not sending people to prison for the same logic
    – James
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 22:57
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    @James I made the erroneous assumption your original comment had purpose beyond stating the obvious. Obviously users who are genuinely low effort posters are rude and destructive to this site. So what? We have lots of ways to get rid of them. Auto bans, downvotes, close votes. Nobody is asking to take those away. Nobody every doubted that. The point of my comments and my posts was that responding to these users rudely is not a good idea. The point of the "be welcoming" initiative is to attack the kind of rudeness we don't have a mechanism for fighting. The rudeness that comes from curators. Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 23:03
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    In your answer you put "What isn't needed is rudeness" then your last comment to me was "I made the erroneous assumption your original comment had purpose beyond stating the obvious". Irony? Kinda breaks down any legibility in your answer when you state people shouldn't be rude then are rude to them when they discuss your answer. Also, I don't post cryptic messages that I expect other people to figure out to know what I meant, so sure if you want to label "to the point and understandable" as "obvious".
    – James
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 23:11
  • 1
    @James Sorry - no rudeness intended - that came out a lot blunter than I would have liked. What I meant by my remark is that you pointed out something that my answer did not call into question, and is generally not doubted (or put shortly: obvious). Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 23:15
  • No worries man, I think we're all on edge at the moment with some of the changes, and what they mean etc
    – James
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 23:17
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    You appear to have the upvote tooltips reversed if you think that poorly researched questions are supposed to be upvoted. The description is very explicit about it being the exact opposite.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 13:18
  • The incorrect premise of the question, and many of the answers here, is that easy to Google answers are off topic on SE. This is wrong; I beleive it has never been the case. As you say, in the case of a duplicate, vote to close as a duplicate. And, I would add, downvote if the duplicate us not a useful duplicate. If there is an answer elsewhere, that does not preclude an answer here.
    – Raedwald
    Commented Jul 24, 2018 at 12:07
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    @James "but isn't it arguably rude to ask a lazy question that wastes everyone's time as it was easy to search for the answer?" If the question meets the site mandate and is not a duplicate, then adding it to the site is inherently not a waste of time. Many of the site's most important and valuable questions concern topics that an experiences programmer would find trivial. Neophytes will always outnumber experts, in every field, by huge margins. Commented Feb 10, 2023 at 22:00
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What if they did google their question in 5 seconds? Or, more to the point, what if Stack Overflow googled it for them and presented the top n (n in (2..5)) Google results along with the SO results? Maybe something like

Stack Overflow result 1              +-----------------+
SO result 2                          | Google result 1 |
SO result 3                          | Google result 2 |
etc                                  | Google result 3 |
                                     +-----------------+

or

SO result 1
          2
          3
          4
          5

Google result 1
              2
              3
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    As noted, this already happens with the automatic search that happens when asking a question - it doesn't seem to deter this sort of user. Those capable of looking at search results aren't the ones that are causing this problem. Generally, these sort of questions aren't really googleable to start with, because the title is "i dont know why this doesn't work" and the body is an unformatted dump of their code.
    – Knetic
    Commented Jul 22, 2018 at 6:35
  • 3
    @Knetic: WELL! CLEARLY Google has some work to do in the critical areas of homework identification and garbage code detection! HUMPH!! :-) On a more serious note - I read a post lately which pointed out that SO has become The Place on the internet to crowdsource debugging. And I must admit that I'm at least partly to blame for this. <sigh> What to do, what to do..? Commented Jul 22, 2018 at 16:21
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    SO cannot automatically use google without paying huge fees. Automatic research is limited to 400 per day as I heard. Commented Jul 22, 2018 at 18:13
13

My advice: put up or shut up. If the question really is googleable "in 5 seconds", then demonstrate that fact by linking to an easily-googled page where the result can be found. Ideally, quote the answer inline in your comment. Under your own premises, it'll only take you 5 seconds to find such a quote, after all.

If you're not willing to take the extra 5 seconds to do that, then I'd suggest not commenting at all - if only because, in my experience as a question asker and a reader, commenters who complain that something is trivially googled without citing specifically where the answer can be found are wrong more often that they are right. If the complaint comes with a link and a quote, that either definitively proves that the answer was already easily findable, or allows the question asker to argue (by pointing out how the quote doesn't actually answer the question, if it doesn't). Vaguely indicating that Google could provide an answer without pointing to anywhere in particular does neither of these things; it's an unsubstantiated criticism, just as easy to state when it's true as when it's completely false. That's pretty much never constructive, and I would generally flag such comments on sight.

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    This. Often I see "this can be googled" or the like, only to find that it is not as easily googled as the commenter suggests. If it is so easily googleable, you should be able to link to the relevant result and the Google query you used to find the result.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 17:33
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    It is not up to me to google stuff for people. I am not an human English parser. On top of it, I am here to teach, not to do help desk. Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 19:12
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    @RuiFRibeiro If you're not going to even Google the problem before commenting, how can you possibly know that it's trivial to Google?
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jul 22, 2018 at 0:31
  • 6
    @pnuts A good point. No need to even look at other tags than mine to make the comparison, either; T.J.'s got 11000 answers to my 44. I don't think it changes my conclusion - I still think unsubstantiated claims that an answer is trivially Googleable are frequently wrong and rarely serve a purpose, and that the site would be better off if such comments were just never made - but I do see how asking for a greater investment of effort per question is far more of a burden for someone who touches 100x more questions than I do.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jul 22, 2018 at 0:34
  • 3
    @MarkAmery There are good questions, there are bad questions, and there are very trivial questions. On top of the very trivial questions anyone that hang outs frequently sees quickly that a good percentage of the bad questions appears over and over. It is a question of common sense. Actually, many bad questions are a question of a lack of common sense. If you see my top points, they are of a technical group, anyone experienced on the field knows very well what is trivial to know and find. But that is even besides the point. Many questions are not worthy an investment on time. Commented Jul 22, 2018 at 7:50
13

There are a number of possible scenarios where someone is asking a question where finding a solution elsewhere is trivial, and in my opinion a suitable response depends on which scenario it is.

  1. The answer is already on SO.

    Obviously, mark as a dupe, and link to the other question

  2. The question can be pasted as-is into Google, and return a high quality result from a reputable source.

    How about a comment saying something along the lines of "the documentation for {whatever it is} answers this quite well see here {link}", or whatever the best source is.

  3. The question can be Googled, but needs re-phrasing.

    Give the user polite tips on how to find what they are looking for in google, such as keywords which are not included in their question.

  4. The question can be Googled, but does not yield any sources which stand out above the rest.

    e.g. There are some blogs and tutorials that answer it, but none by an obviously reputable source, or there is an answer in the documentation, but it is written in a way that is not accessible, or it can be answered by drawing together points from several sources.

    If this is the case, and the question is in scope and well written, I would say that it is a perfectly good question, where an answer would be helpful. Leave it be, or answer, as pleases you.

You know it is one of these, but don't think it is worth your time to work out which, because you think it's a lazy question

Doing nothing, or just down voting, wastes the least amount of your time.

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    #2 is a wordy way to say RTFM / "RTFM" is a nerdy way to say "the documentation for {whatever it is} answers this quite well see here {link}". #3 - SO is not a "how to use Google" site (or is there now, or should there be, a googletips.stackexchange.com site?). Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 15:08
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    #2 Is a perfectly valid question, as per the faq. Upvote and answer. The fact that a high quality source exists is irrelevant. We don't have a "duplicate of official documentation" close option for a reason. Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 18:07
  • 1
    @GiantCowFilms You appear to be under the impression that upvote are for "poorly researched questions", and that downvotes are for...what, exactly? Anyway, that's very demonstrably wrong. Downvotes exist to indicate that a question is poorly researched. Upvotes exist to indicate that a question is well researched. The fact that a high quality, accessible answer exists for the question is not only not irrelevant, it's extremely relevant. The site doesn't exist to plagiarize documentation. It exists to actually improve the information available to programmers, not to duplicate it.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 13:12
  • @Servy That post that is part of the official FAQ seems to disagree with you. Also, just because a good source answers a question, does not mean that there are not other (possibly better) ways to answer that question. SE allows all the answers from a wide ranger of people, as well as a method to rank them. Pretty much all other sources don't. I agree we don't exists to plagiarize documentation, however I have seem it helpfully summarized and quoted in many instances - which is the beauty of SO. Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 17:30
  • 1
    @GiantCowFilms The FAQ doesn't say that research isn't important, or that you're supposed to upvote poorly researched questions. It says that you shouldn't be posting answers or comments that just link to LMGTFY. That doesn't mean that poorly researched questions should be upvoted. It also doesn't claim, as you are, that the purpose of the site is to duplicate, without any added value whatsoever (which, for the record, is called plagiarism, so you are advocating it) all official documentation.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 17:46
  • @Servy Whilte it is specifically talking about lgmtfy - but the rest of the post goes on to indirectly encourage easily googled questions (like "What is a variable?"). The justification being that they will be best answered on SO, no matter how many excellent easily found via google sources also answer them. Stack overflow is for all questions, even if other sites already answer them. Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 17:49
  • 1
    @GiantCowFilms Yes, one person advocated that in the question, and isn't even given as the answer. That's of course contrary to the help center, stating that questions are expected to be well researched, and number of other meta questions stating the same. SO is not for all questions. It's for clear, reasonably scoped, objective, well researched, questions about specific types of programming related topics. It's a site designed to have quality questions with quality answers. Not a place for people to regurgitate documentation because people didn't bother to do their research.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 17:52
7

“You could Google this in 5 seconds.”

Maybe you could google it in 5 seconds, but perhaps they lack the expertise to discern the most relevant search results in that short period of time. Therefore the whole "5 seconds" part is extraneous and, while not necessarily rude, it does reveal a little frustration and (perhaps) condescension. If you want to convey the fact that it would be quick, then just say exactly that: "a quick search".

Here's the official Friendly version:

"This is called Invariance and Covariance. If you Google it, you’ll find tutorials that can explain it much better than we can in a comment here."

The official Friendly version is not great either. Here we are still promoting a specific search engine, which may not even be accessible in that user's country. And does StackOverflow really need to be in the business of promoting one search engine over another?

Another problem is that this is far wordier than the original. If we want to help everyone use their time efficiently, then how does that make sense? Wordier does not equal friendly / better; A programmer should value some degree of precision rather than beating around the bush.

So, here's my proposed Friendly version:

"FYI, an internet search for (Insert Keyword here) turns up a lot of good tutorials"

Here the formulation is less aggressive, but equally concise: you are just providing additional information. What they choose to do with that information-- and whether or not they feel foolish in retrospect-- is of course, up to them.

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    I'm not sure if this answers the question, but it does raise two points that also bugged me: advertising a specific search engine, and being overly wordy. I feel this would be useful on the Meta Stack Exchange request for feedback on the new CoC. Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 13:14
  • 1
    Sure, you can try to use google in a generic sense, lots of people do, but it is still a clear reference to the Google search engine. Likewise if I say to bing something, then I am promoting through my language the use of Miscrosoft's product. @pnuts Commented Jul 24, 2018 at 4:31
6

I think the MAIN problem with this question is the false dichotomy.

Sometimes it is appropriate to redirect to google. Sometimes it isn't. Sometimes it's both at the same time. Sometimes the user wouldn't exactly know how to search for this productively on google, hence their search isn't as good as a knowledgeable user's search. Sometimes they're not looking for 'examples', they're looking for understanding by someone who can explain it. And sometimes they're just lazy (which I find an odd conclusion, since posting a question takes more effort).

Just to be cheeky, what do people think about the OP's question here as an example that should have been googled? If you agree that my snarky comment below his question about "google gives the answer in 5 seconds" is inappropriate, then I would agree with you. However, you would also agree that they didn't demonstrate they 'googled' effectively in their question. Was such 'google evidence' necessary? Probably not.

Also, to compound the issue, I freely admit I haven't even read their question; it was just a knee-jerk have you googled it response because there didn't seem much evidence of "I googled this" in it at a glance. I think this is also something that happens, which when you re-read the question it is quite reasonable that a question was asked rather than 'googled'.

UPDATE: my comment on that post has now been deleted. This is either an automated script by SO, or OP felt it was unfair and unwelcoming. I well let people draw their own conclusions from this.

1
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    PS. Also, I hope someone will answer your question now given the fresh exposure, OP. It sounds interesting :p Commented Jul 22, 2018 at 12:33
5

I want to know what research the SO/SE owners/admins are doing (or considering) on creating an AI (well maybe not a real AI, mayber only a programming Eliza bolted on to the resources of SE and the Web)) that will essentially automate the Googling operation and offer an immediate answer? Why restrict the search space for dupes to just a particular forum on SE? Why not develop a programming lexicon of potential synonyms for terms like "merge", "join" and, "append", perhaps with a dialog to get user-clarification on potentially ambiguous terms and then deploy a programming-specific search on the collective resource of SE and the Web. It's essentially an SE-Watson approach with the added feature of clarification steps.

This "AI" might scan the posting for the words "I searched" and ask for the search strategy. If there were no words there might be a Programming-Psychiatric dialog about what the "right" search strategy could be.

5
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    But this is exactly what Google does, why reinvent the wheel? And you can already add the qualifier site: to a search to get results from a specific site.
    – Aryaman
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 23:57
  • 2
    SO already has a mechanism to display a set of potential duplicates. I speculating that this search space could be expanded to a programming-specific, spider-gathered resource (maybe not Google?) and then questioners could be asked to interact with the results to explain in natural language why the offered answers were not satisfactory. That dialog with a automated system would be of value in the subsequent assessment by the "experts". (I did agree with the post that said "stop pontification" and ended with a call for clarity on the nature of the target user.)
    – IRTFM
    Commented Jul 22, 2018 at 0:04
  • 5
    I think the answer is "A code of conduct is a lot easier to change than actual code which won't make them money anyway". There is already a bot with 99.97% recall for flagging useless comments, but SO hasn't tried to incorporate anything like that officially, despite it constituting ~15% of accepted flags in 2016. If they can't even do that for "me too!" comments then there's no way they'll have interest in doing anything similar for quality-checking question content.
    – Knetic
    Commented Jul 22, 2018 at 6:41
  • Actually, this might be a good suggestion - as long as the AI has HAL-like personality issues, and access to SkyNet-like "resources". "HALnet - I've got a homework assignment, How do I implement the Fibonacci sequence in C?" "I'm sorry, Dave - I can't code that for you. But I can park a 5000 degree mushroom cloud over your home, in 5 seconds...4...3...2...1...". :-) Commented Jul 22, 2018 at 18:57
  • Show Google results before user can post a question
    – Pekka
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 10:33
2

The thing about telling people to Just Google it is that there's sometimes a very fine line between "teaching a man to fish", and being a jerk.

Yes, many of our visitors are obnoxious freeloaders, and this gets frustrating after a while, and they really out to lift at least one finger to help themselves before running here asking us to tie their shoelaces for them.

But, there are plenty other of our visitors who come here because they actually, honestly need some help, and they heard this was a place they could ask a question and maybe get an answer on something they needed some help with.

There's no bright line between a question that's worth asking here and a question that's so basic someone should have known the answer themselves. There's no bright line between a question that's worth asking here and a question that's trivially Googleable, either. If you see one of those questions and know the answer, you probably also know the search terms that would have found that answer in 5 seconds on Google -- but remember, the answer wasn't obvious to the OP. That's why they've come here asking. And if the answer to their question wasn't obvious, it's far more likely than you might think that they couldn't think of the right search terms to use, either. Or maybe they wouldn't know how to interpret the answers they found. Or maybe they're getting tired and frustrated, finding themselves on unfamiliar ground, five levels deep in a yak-shaving exercise, and they just want some actual, human help.

The reason that "Just Google it" is likely to come off as rude (rather than as nobly teaching someone to fish) is that in 2018, the likelihood that someone (a) does have an Internet connection and (b) has figured out how to post to Stackoverflow but (c) has not heard of or does not know how to search Google, is just about exactly zero. So when you say "Just google it", you are not teaching them to fish, you're basically always scolding them for having been, in your mind, lazy. So they're going to think you're rude, because no one likes being scolded. They either don't think they're being lazy, or don't care. But you're not going to teach them to be un-lazy by scolding them. So if you think they're being rude or lazy, if you think they don't deserve your help, maybe just ignore them instead. Answering rudeness with rudeness just raises the overall rudeness level.

(And remember, if you had absolutely no intention of rudeness when you wrote "Just google it" -- well, so what? It doesn't matter how you intended the words; what matters -- if the question is how to make the site less rude and more welcoming -- is how those words are perceived.)

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    If I copy your title, paste it in Google, and get a relevant official tutorial whose sample code matches your problem exactly, hasn’t that crossed the line into clearly trivially Googleable? That happens all the time. And it means the OP did know the search terms, they just didn’t bother. And, while nobody is perfect, experienced SO users get pretty good at judging the difference between “novice who doesn’t know what to search” and “lazy vampire who doesn’t bother to search”. And advise to treat both groups the same way because we can’t distinguish between them 100% perfectly is…
    – abarnert
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 8:39
  • 1
    … going to hurt all those novices that we’re currently treating better than the help vampires, for the small benefit of the tiny number who we’re accidentally miscategorizing. Is that really a win?
    – abarnert
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 8:41
  • How is going around Googling questions for people that couldn't bother to helpful to the people that did their research, did their best to try to solve their problem, and wrote a good question that clearly indicated not just what they needed to do, but what they did to try to solve it and why it didn't work (in other words, asked a good question). The people that ask those good questions are unaffected by what happens to the people that couldn't be bothered to search for their question before asking it. This question isn't about "easy" questions, it's about poorly researched questions.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 13:22
1

[I downvoted because research must be done to ask a good question](http://idownvotedbecau.se/noresearch/)

Sure, asking people to show more evidence of their investment into a question in a general sense seems fine to me.

What if they could have found the answer in 5 seconds on Google Search? In cases like this, is it wrong to point out the obvious?

...but that is both wrong and non-obvious.

Wrong because saying "you should have searched on Google" is advertising spam, and should be flagged as such. Unless Stack Overflow decides in its new Code of Conduct to include a Pledge of Allegiance to Google. But I think it better to have a tolerant attitude of those who might choose to not use certain outside services. E.g., if someone wants to, they should be able to use SO despite boycotting Google to get them to stop being involved with the military (sidenote: I see they eventually did).

Non-obvious because Google is blocked in several parts of the world, including China.

Beyond that, there's how much Google's results vary on their whims: per location, per device, per person, per time, etc.

Maybe they searched on mobile and didn't get the result you think should have been on the top. Maybe they searched from a different part of the world and it was influenced by their IP address.

Or maybe they can compose a question in English well enough, but have a harder time working inside an entire search surface that is in English. The search engine they are comfortable with may not be Google, and may not index information the same way.

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    So "You could DuckDuckGo this in 5 seconds" is fine, right?
    – abarnert
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 3:02
  • 2
    Fun-Fact: DDG actually includes results from stackoverflow in the result pages.
    – allo
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 8:55
  • 2
    I cautiously agree with everything after the second quote, but disagree with your very first paragraph about "evidence of investment". I'm of the view that deliberate displays of effort generally make a question worse, not better, and that they are not the yardstick by which a question's quality should be measured.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 9:02
  • Note that the site's spam rules are not "you are not allowed to even mention any other company on this site". It's entirely appropriate and allowed to mention the use of a company or product that is able to help someone solve their problem. If they mention why the use of said product is not suitable for them, then alternatives can certainly be mentioned. If Google is blocked for someone, other search tools can be mentioned as they become necessary. Likewise, you're free to recommend the use of any alternative products you feel would help someone answer a question.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 13:26
  • 2
    It only becomes spam if you fail to disclose an affiliation, are suggesting it where it's clearly not applicable for the sole purpose of advertising, it's clearly the only reason your account exists, etc. Telling someone that a Google search will answer your question is none of those things.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 13:27
  • This appears to be nothing more than a rant against google
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 22, 2023 at 17:06
0

You don't tell someone to consult the documentation; that's not an answer.
You don't tell someone to Google it; that's not an answer.

In fact:

  • even if they have consulted the documentation
  • even if they already know the answer
  • it is still a valid question to ask, and correct to ask it

Stack Overflow was created as a sort of combination between Wikipedia and Reddit. Which means if a piece of knowledge hasn't yet been asked to Stack Overflow, then it needs to be added to Stack Overflow.

Telling someone to go consult the documentation is not an answer, it's the incorrect response.

The correct response is to either:

  • answer the question, simply and directly
  • link to the existing answer on the duplicate question; and vote to close

Stack Overflow is not a magical font where you ask a question get an answer. Stack Overflow is the collected knowledge of everything about everything related to programming. And if the question doesn't exist yet: it needs to be asked and answered.

But this also means that Stack Overflow is not a magical font where you ask a question and get an answer. If your question is in fact a duplicate of an existing question, then it should be closed (calmly, plainly, with a link to the existing answer)


  • I've asked questions that I can find the answer to on the internet
  • I've asked questions when I know the answer
  • I've asked questions when I know the answer, and will give someone else the opportunity to answer it for the rep
  • I've asked questions, already knowing the answer, and tell people the answer in the question, and tell people copy and paste the answer into an answer and I will accept it and give you reputation
  • I'll answer my own question myself just to make Stack Overflow better - because it now contains more knowledge

From Stack Overflow Launches by Joel Splosky, 9/15/2008:

Every question in Stack Overflow is like the Wikipedia article for some extremely narrow, specific programming question. How do I enlarge a fizzbar without overwriting the user’s snibbit? This question should only appear once in the site. Duplicates should be cleaned up quickly and redirected to the original question.

In addition to voting on answers, you can vote on questions. Vote up a question if you think it’s interesting, if you’d like to know the answer, or if you think it’s important. The hot tab on the home page will show some of the highest-ranked recent questions using an algorithm similar to digg or Reddit. If you’re generally interested in programming and want to learn something new every day, visit the hot tab frequently.

  • I joined SO the day after launch: 2008-09-16 14:53:25.
  • ten years, and 112k reputation, later i still hold to that altruistic goal

Which is why it's so upsetting to see how mean-spirited and grumpy SO has become.

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    Almost upvoted because on paper you're absolutely right. But speaking socially you're absolutely wrong, and the pressure to not put pressure on people has resulted in this total mess of garbage the site now is. Speaks for itself really! Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 0:51
  • 12
    I basically agree with you. But SO should not be a learner's primary reference for well-defined subjects with their own documentation. The question or answers or both (and the tag wiki, too) should link to the primary reference. The Q&A format of SO can increase accessibility and visibility of small topics in large subjects. Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 1:06
  • 2
    Sorry, but I think it is time we stopped thinking it is our responsibility to make StackOverflow better. That's SE management's job.
    – Stephen C
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 1:32
  • 5
    @StephenC What is the point of contributing at all, if not to make StackOverflow better? (points are, in themselves pretty meaningless after all). I think Ian is overstepping the mark far less than those people who think it is their responsibility to get rid of all poor quality questions, since it sounds like he does what he enjoys doing, while aiming to improve the site. In other words it is his pleasure rather than his responsibility to do so.
    – Ben
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 7:25
  • 1
    @Ben - simple. Helping people. But my point is that it is not our responsibility to make SO better. Which is a good thing because the real problems are deeper than we (the community) can solve.
    – Stephen C
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 7:33
  • @StephenC I agree that helping people is the main point, more than improving the site, also that improving the site is not our responsibility. What I don't understand is how this applies to this answer. To me it sounds like Ian just enjoys contributing to the site, because it helps people. I think other users are trying to take responsibility for getting rid of poor questions from the site, and that your point is more relevant to them.
    – Ben
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 7:47
  • 6
    This site shouldn't attempt to be a replacement for documentation which already exists. Copying and pasting documentation into this site doesn't help anyone.
    – Andy
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 17:13
  • 11
    The valid question, the one that gets asked after consulting the documentation, is different in important ways from the lazy question. The valid question links the documentation, quotes the part that OP thinks might be relevant but is confusing, and focuses on the portion of the problem that isn't clearly addressed in the documentation. The lazy question "lacks research effort" and is subject to deletion for that reason.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jul 21, 2018 at 18:58
  • 4
    Why should stack overflow duplicate clear documentation that already exists? I thought we shut that failed project down a while ago.
    – Alex
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 15:36
  • 5
    @IanBoyd After re-reading Joel's post again I'm still not seeing the part where Joel says that questions are not expected to be well researched, and that it's perfectly fine to duplicate content that's already readily accessible elsewhere. It doesn't look like the post addresses the issue at all really, other than saying that the main problem that they're trying to solve is that web searches for many different practical problems don't yield any useful results, which implies that the site exists to provide answers for those search that don't yield useful results.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 20:31
  • 3
    @Alex Well, technically "SO Documentation" wasn't supposed to duplicate all official documentation, it was supposed to pick up where they left off and be a useful supplementary. Everyone told SO that that wouldn't work because it'd just end up doing nothing but duplicating official documentation. They went through with it anyway. It ended up doing very little besides plagiarizing official documentation, hence it was (eventually) shut down.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 20:33
  • 3
    "I've asked questions, already knowing the answer, and tell people the answer in the question, and tell people copy and paste the answer into an answer and I will accept it and give you reputation" Sorry, I am with you except for this point. That's not allowed. Solutions belong in answers, not in the question. It's fine to ask a question you know the answer to but, questions need to ask questions. This sounds like reputation fraud, similar to paying bounties purely to increase someone else's rep.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 21, 2023 at 17:30
  • 3
    @IanBoyd Stack Overflow (not "StackOverflow") is not "a combination of Wikipedia and Reddit." What Joel's blog post actually said is that every question is like a Wikipedia page about a very specific programming question. He also said the site uses algorithms like digg or Reddit to rank questions. That's it. Site employees have discussed what Stack Overflow is/isn't, though: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/92107/…
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 21, 2023 at 20:03
  • 1
    @IanBoyd And though the author isn't an employee, my favorite is this answer. The Venn diagram there aptly covers how Stack Overflow is at the nexus between not just Wikipedia and Reddit but also traditional discussion forums and weblogs.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 21, 2023 at 20:05
  • 2
    @IanBoyd It's important to note that no one has issues with you asking a question and providing an answer. What is at issue here is doing it the way the site works. Blog posts that don't leave a question open are not actually questions, and thus are not acceptable on Stack Overflow. If you want to post an answer to a question, do so in an answer, not as part of the question.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 21, 2023 at 20:06
-10

Whether or not the answer can be found with a quick google search is irrelevant to whether or not the question is a good fit. Because it's irrelevant, there's no reason to bring it up in a comment.

So if you do a quick google search and the question already has an answer on Stack Overflow then do the normal thing and close as a duplicate. Most simple questions will fall into this category.

If the question fails to meet the minimum standard for some other reason (off-topic, unclear, too broad, opinion-based) then do the normal thing and downvote/vote to close for the appropriate reason. Feel free to leave a comment explaining why.

As pointed out here (among other places), one of the goals of Stack Overflow is to be the "ultimate source for all programming related questions". So if it's a good question that hasn't already been asked (rare), it belongs on the site. There are advantages to having Stack Overflow as a canonical source such as community vetting and the ability to update/evolve over time.

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    Why should people willing to sacrifice their time to help improve the site do the lazy asker's Googling for them? I can tell you that is a curating activity that gets old very quickly.
    – Pekka
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 19:03
  • @Pekka웃 I fail to see how that's relevant to this question or my answer. Are you suggesting the solution to the problem of lazy questions is to comment telling people to google instead? That seems ridiculous.
    – aw04
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 19:09
  • @pnuts That's not a close reason and it seems to be at odds with what I've linked and what I've read elsewhere. Do you have a source for why that makes a good fit?
    – aw04
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 19:14
  • @pnuts Oh interesting. It seems they have a bit of mixed messaging going on... here's another example of where my answer is coming from, which is completely at odds with the up/down messaging: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/299411/2124351
    – aw04
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 19:21
  • 1
    Are you suggesting the solution to the problem of lazy questions is to comment telling people to google instead? It's ultimately not a constructive solution to the problem, no. Neither is requiring every one of those questions to be closed as a duplicate, though. It's a waste of volunteer time. One thing that could help this that I'd love to see implemented is here meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/336128/…
    – Pekka
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 19:37
  • 1
    @Pekka웃 Ah yes I like that idea. I don't really disagree with any of your points, but closing as a duplicate seems to be the way to handle it at the moment.
    – aw04
    Commented Jul 23, 2018 at 19:42
  • @Pekka Why should I sacrifice my time to help improve the site when the a lazy asker couldn't be bothered to do a simple search? Easy: to make Stackoverflow better. We make do these things because we are good people who want to make Stackoverflow better. And closing questions you be bothered to answer is very must not making Stackoverflow better. It is our responsiblity to make Stackoverflow better.
    – Ian Boyd
    Commented Feb 22, 2023 at 15:07
-24

A simple solution is charge just enough money to ask a question that it becomes less expensive to find the answers on Google.

Nothing can be given away for free which isn’t free. The spam that is impacting these free sites is an example of that aphorism. The time of those who use a Q & A seriously in their work is not free.

Those who use a site seriously will find it is much cheaper overall to pay an insignificant amount (relative to significant earnings of a professional programmer) so that spammers are disincentivized, than to wade through all the spam. And there’s no solution that is better than economics directed one.

All the downvotes are of course irrelevant. Meta is for being frank.

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    The problem is that this is too strong of a disincentive. You'll push away all of the good questions along with all of the bad ones.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 25, 2018 at 17:41
  • 4
    I really think you're making assumptions about who is downvoting and why. I myself downvoted for the same reason that Servy gave - requiring money would be too big a disincentive. Still, disencentivizing the act of asking a question, itself, is something to consider. Commented Jul 27, 2018 at 13:42
  • 2
    You are not disincentivizing anything. Anyone who is worth anything and earns anything from being a professional programmer will gain many multiples of the cost to disincentivize spammers by having their important question answered. Commented Jul 27, 2018 at 13:44
  • 2
    One of the reasons for Stack Overflow's creation was that a certain other site was charging for access to its answers, and the founders did not like that. Commented Dec 14, 2018 at 16:35
  • 1
    @HereticMonkey I didn’t propose to charge for viewing answers. I proposed to charge for asking a question, so as to minimize spamming with questions and increase the quality and care put into formulating questions. When readers don’t even read what I write, then downvote what kind of veracity and integrity does that voting system represent? All downvotes should be required to be public information and every downvoter should provide a reason. All this obfuscation is not in the spirit of transparency and veracity. All because of politics and egos. Commented Dec 24, 2018 at 6:01
-43

This is social behaviour (reality).

For big data (like the Stack Exchange community), dealing with data quality need to be anyhow, but fixing or teaching its source (people).

Can't you consider such a problem as data? What questions are repeated? What field? When? Why? Seasonality? ... etc.

I understand that you (and many like you) desire to have nice looking community, but me not .. and maybe some others too.

Ciao!

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