98

That people will ask questions that are super easily Googled (with the #1 result often being… a Stack Overflow question) is a fact of life.

Our history shows that there’s no way to tell people to Google first (although they damn well should) that isn’t borderline rude, or has other unintended consequences.

Other people have Googled, but the solutions they found didn’t work for them because of some detail specific to their situation. Mysteriously, they often don’t mention that previous research and their specific situation when asking their question (possibly out of a sense that it’s inappropriate to be too specific), and end up getting berated by people like me for not Googling first.

There might be a way to help at least some of the non-Googlers find what they need without asking another unneeded question—by doing the Googling for them.

At the same time, we can remind those who have done their research that they might want to mention that.

After clicking the “ask” button, Stack Overflow could show askers below a certain reputation level an interstitial page with a list of Google results for the question title and/or the appropriate tags, and the option to edit their question, postpone posting it, or going ahead.

This would be much like the “Questions that may already have an answer” list, but on a new page. (The other list would stay where it is.)

enter image description here

(The wording would still need work.)

Now, as far as I know, Google doesn’t currently offer a public API for its search results. But I’m sure Stack Overflow could figure something out or get a custom solution for this.

27
  • 4
    There is, or at least used to be, a way to add a custom Google search for your own site, but after a certain number of searches, you have to pay for continued access.
    – user247702
    Oct 12, 2016 at 9:06
  • 26
    While I'm 100% in favor of this, I'm not sure how realistic the request is...
    – Cerbrus
    Oct 12, 2016 at 9:12
  • 13
    I would like for the entries in the Questions that may already have your answer list to contain 'No, it doesn't' checkboxes that all have to be filled before the actual question field is enabled (maybe for users below a certain reputation threshold). And for the question to be auto-populated with links to the suggestions and 'doesn't answer my question because:' prompts. The user could remove the auto-text, or ignore it, but doing so would be a good indicator that the question is VLQ. Oct 12, 2016 at 11:35
  • 13
    @yellowantphil: You and 3 other users ;-) I'm pretty sure a massive majority of SO's userbase doesn't block embedded google results.
    – Cerbrus
    Oct 12, 2016 at 12:41
  • 2
    @yellowantphil the ideal solution (as pictured above) would be SO talking to a Google API on server side, and serving the search results as part of the SO Ask Question page. In that scenario, your client would never be in contact with Google’s servers. Iframes would be a workaround if that is not doable at all.
    – Pekka
    Oct 12, 2016 at 12:43
  • 11
    Why would this solve the problem if the existing question prompt does not?
    – Casey
    Oct 12, 2016 at 18:27
  • 32
    I doubt this would have much effect. Stack Overflow already provides strong hints that there may already be an answer to the question. Users unwilling to avail themselves of that aren't going to go off-site to Google for the same. A bigger problem are users who insist on up-voting bad questions. In the C# tag, it's gotten to the point where I can tell what the worst questions are just by looking at the vote count; they are the ones that got between one and three up-votes shortly after being posted. For a self-moderated site, we sure suck at it. Oct 12, 2016 at 18:28
  • 11
    Does lmgtfy have an API? ;)
    – Rob Porter
    Oct 12, 2016 at 18:57
  • 5
    IMHO this would not change much, because vampires want a solution that uses their variable names and input prompts, copy-paste-able with no change. The problem is not that they don't know google.
    – alain
    Oct 12, 2016 at 19:06
  • 6
    @alain no, it won't detract the hard-core vampires, but it might serve as a reminder to careless and forgetful askers. I've over time found out that those really exist.
    – Pekka
    Oct 12, 2016 at 19:57
  • 9
    Can we retitle this question to lsogtfy?
    – canon
    Oct 13, 2016 at 18:46
  • 13
    From a business standpoint it makes little sense to divert users away from your website. And why should SO promote Google? What about Yahoo, Bing, etc...
    – 2501
    Oct 13, 2016 at 18:47
  • 12
    @2501 well, we’re frequently told that Stack Overflow, while it has money to make, holds itself to a higher ethical bar than other web companies. Making the Internet a better place, and such. Plus it’s arguably not it its best long-term interests to generate millions of low-quality search engine results. Re Google - fair point, but I frequently give other search engines a chance, but in my experience, Google simply delivers the best search results. They have the best algorithms finding your keywords in texts that are actually related what you want, are best at guessing what you mean, etc. etc.
    – Pekka
    Oct 13, 2016 at 19:38
  • 2
    Google does have a search API, but it costs money. Oct 14, 2016 at 3:14
  • 2
    this feature is risky: it can make so that there will be less questions asked than now. This may make Spolsky unhappy I'm afraid Oct 14, 2016 at 6:29

5 Answers 5

28

In the interests of keeping the debate from being a repetition of extremes (as valid as those extremes are!), here's a proposal that attempts to chart the middle course:

  1. Don't ever do this for a user with 100 rep or more without explicit permission.

    I have sold my info out as part of SO's career system, which I believe to be equitable trade for my long participation on the site, but my relationship is and should be with SO alone, not whichever search engine sees an angle in getting a search stream from every autodidact with the sense to skip Quora.

  2. Explore collaborative outfits like DuckDuckGo, which operates a whole OSS community site for plugins and services built on top of their stuff, or perhaps business-savvy ixQuick, which has somehow managed to work out a deal with Google to supposedly strip search requests of, shall we say, "excessively actionable information" before batching them to and from Google and the user.

    Such features are much more salient to the infrastructure and business considerations, I think, than some nebulous asymptote of search relevance. Frankly, "How do I jQuery the thingy" is not a question that needs a bunch of machine learning-obsessed devops engineers to spend their dwindling "20% time" on refining.

  3. Accompany the purely technological solution with UI/UX that persuades the user that the search results are, from an efficiency perspective, the path of least resistance.

    We all win when this happens, including a possibly unhelpful new SO user--they get the easily obtained information they're looking for, and they also know that SO helped them out before they even started. In the meantime, SO is marginally unburdened, and who knows, in the intervening period, that prospective user may mature and come back later with something more substantive.

tl;dr: It's a neat idea that serves a need. But don't just chuck Google at it. That reflects badly on us both as users and providers. An approach that has a little more subtlety may pay off in exciting ways down the road.

9
  • 2
    Re point 1, you are assuming that the queries are not routed through SO meaning the search provider will not have your details. I'm also not sure why you think that "chucking Google at it" reflects badly on anyone?
    – DavidG
    Oct 14, 2016 at 10:01
  • 2
    The queries also count as part of "my" information, insofar as I'm the originator. By the same token as my being a user who has proven that I can be responsible for the proper dissemination of question/answer information, my wishes about where that information should be forwarded should be respected. It's got nothing particular to do with personal privacy. It's basic respect. Oct 14, 2016 at 14:52
  • 1
    "chucking Google at it" is intellectual abnegation, if it wasn't already clear. Oct 14, 2016 at 14:52
  • @TrevorAlexander given that it would be impossible to connect the query with you personally because the request would be made through an API, I don’t see how „respect“ comes into play here at all. If we started demanding respect this way, a web site couldn’t make external backups any more, or use a hosting service like Amazon, or an image provider like imgur - after all, all those actions forward your data to a 3rd party. Using DuckDuckGo and such is cool if they come close to Google in search quality, which is not my experience so far
    – Pekka
    Oct 14, 2016 at 19:35
  • Additionally, why are you so concerned about information being sent to google just before you post that information publicly, where everyone in the world can see it (including google, by the way). Yes, there is information SE has that is private to you and that they need to be very careful how they use, but the contents of a question you're attempting to post publicly isn't among it.
    – Servy
    Oct 14, 2016 at 21:00
  • If I were an intel agency, I'd spend some hundred thousand bucks to a few millions to operate DuckDuckGo. This is not even a peanut shell.
    – Arc
    Oct 15, 2016 at 4:32
  • I repeat, "It's got nothing particular to do with personal privacy." Is anyone actually reading what I write? Abandon the groupthink, please, for just a second. Oct 15, 2016 at 19:14
  • @Pekka웃 I think we don't disagree as much as it sounds. The notion of "third party" is kind of inaccurate when it comes to Internet communication; there was a terrible USA law about email introduced once that fell into that tarpit. I think that clear ToS and informed consent bridge your statement and mine; furthermore, I would assume that SO makes encrypted backups of their content on cloud services for obvious reasons. If the security model is sound, I don't consider those to be truly "external". Oct 15, 2016 at 19:37
  • 1
    I still don't get your point (although I'm open to be persuaded). Remember, the information we are talking about you just have consented to publish on a public web site, possibly even with an account that allows identifying you personally, and which Google is going to crawl in about two minutes. I honestly do not understand how sending an anonymized query containing the title could be problematic
    – Pekka
    Oct 15, 2016 at 19:45
7

Architecturally, it makes much more sense for StackExchange to implement this internally.

  1. Google has some of the best bot detection in the world and is nigh impossible to spider.

  2. Something is not a duplicate here if it exists on some other Q&A site but not on a StackExchange site.

  3. StackExchange is the system of record for this data, not Google, it does not make sense to go outside for the data when you have full access to it.

I do think this is a good feature but I don't think it needs to rely on Google or any third-party search engine.

11
  • 3
    And, indeed, the internal feature described--an automatic search of SO for similar questions based on the title of a question being drafted--already exists and actually works quite well (arguably better than the SO search bar). Oct 14, 2016 at 19:06
  • I was thinking that it sounded familiar as I was writing this. :) Oct 14, 2016 at 19:18
  • 5
    But Googling should be your first step before asking a question on SO, so that’s what we need to „simulate“. I don’t think it would be as beneficial if we just somehow augmented the site-internal search feature that is already there. Re 1.) - this feature would definitely require access to a Google API, which they know about, not spidering Google.com. Re 2.) - disagree. If a Google query for How to do <thing> in X leads to the programming language’s own official manual which answers the question perfectly then there is no need for the question to exist on SO. 3.) Seems to depend on 2).
    – Pekka
    Oct 14, 2016 at 19:31
  • 1
    @Pekka - Regarding 2: Even if googling leads to internal documentation for something, I don't see it as a particularly bad thing for StackOverflow to also have a canonical explanation for that thing, so long as there are not duplicate StackOverflow explanations of the same thing. If this were not the case, there would be little need for SO documentation. Disclaimer: I do not know what SO's official stance is on this topic, this is just my opinion. Oct 14, 2016 at 19:39
  • @cchamberlain SO specifically stated when the created documentation that it exists for languages that have very poor formal documentation, and/or for information not traditionally found in formal documentation, not to pirate the official documentation of every language out there.
    – Servy
    Oct 14, 2016 at 21:03
  • 1
    @Servy - I'm not advocating pirating documentation. Often documentation writers do not see the holes of their own designs in the way users do and SO fills in those gaps. Oct 14, 2016 at 21:40
  • 1
    @cchamberlain If there's a hole in the official documentation then it won't answer the question, so sure, it makes sense as an SO question. If it doesn't have a hole, there's no reason to copy the information to SO.
    – Servy
    Oct 14, 2016 at 21:59
  • @Kyle - it does not, try searching one of your own questions with the exact same title when flagging something as a duplicate, it will not show up the majority of the time, when it does it is at the exact bottom of the list the majority of the time.
    – user177800
    Oct 15, 2016 at 5:41
  • @JarrodRoberson I believe the duplicate-search utility works differently. Oct 15, 2016 at 6:04
  • @Pekka웃 did you consider limiting Google search to SO site? like site:stackoverflow.com How to do <thing> in X Oct 17, 2016 at 9:48
  • 1
    @gnat not sure that would be productive. The point is to encourage people to do research first, no matter where the result. I don't think we need to have a Stack Overflow question for everything under the sun (and many how to do <thing> questions get closed on SO)
    – Pekka
    Oct 17, 2016 at 9:59
6

I'd like to respond to the "objection" that this is basically replacing the "Questions that may already have your answer" block with a Google search. Other concerns are valid and have been discussed, so I won't address them here.

In terms of replacing "Questions that may already have your answer," I wholeheartedly concur that this is needed. This search rarely finds the most relevant results. A simple Google search has a vastly superior track record for finding the most relevant information.

I think this is the real problem Pekka is trying to solve: that box doesn't work. It doesn't do it's job very well. Replacing it with a proven search engine would likely represent a real improvement. I don't think it has to be Google, but the existing search feature is deficient.

2

What does this accomplish when the majority of the time if you google the exact title of the question the first half of the page are links back to StackOverflow?

Is it to get around the universally terrible search incapabilities of the internal site search?

Do you really think the powers that be will promote external links to sites that drive traffic away instead of keeping it on site? If you do, you need to learn a thing or two about how websites make money solely from advertising.

And how is this any different than an inline lmgtfy?

1
  • 1
    I think your questions are actually two big benefits (1) the links back to SO help avoid duplicates and (2) it preempts the inline LMGTFY saving time for the answer/moderator and annoyance for the users.
    – claytond
    Mar 1, 2017 at 4:13
2

I moved a duplicate from MSE where two objections were contributed and worth mentioning since this same suggestion was aggressively down-voted there:

  1. "Why send folks elsewhere?"
  2. "Cost of Google Search API."

Some responses:

  • Answers/respondents are doing this anyway
  • This would only affect people who reached the "ask" stage and not the general (e.g. search) user. How many "asks" are actually started in a year?
  • At some point, the community resources to moderate/close are more precious than a few eyeballs. How valuable are community resources?
  • Could the google search appear (i.e. the API call made) only after "passing" on the existing SO question list?

In fact, the links in the page for "these google links didn't help" could be added to the question body with text like "I reviewed these links and none addressed my question". The user is allowed to delete the text, but it reinforce the best practice of researching -- and explaining what you've researched.

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .