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Those of you who suffer from banner blindness may not have noticed the announcement:

Stack Overflow is changing the reputation scoring system to make the reputation earned from upvotes on questions equal to the reputation earned from upvotes on answers. Previously, upvotes on questions netted you only +5 reputation, whereas upvotes on answers netted you +10 reputation. Now, upvotes on posts will always be worth +10 reputation, regardless of whether that post is a question or an answer.

This change will not only take effect for contributions from here forward, but it will also be applied retroactively. A global reputation recalculation is pending and will be completed soon. Note that this recalculation will take the daily reputation cap into account. (The Mortarboard, Epic, Legendary, and Yearling badges will also be awarded, as they would have been earned under the new logic, but they are awarded nightly by a separate, background process, and thus may not show up at the same time as your recalculated reputation.)

The net effect will be to reward the contributions of users who have asked well-received questions, in recognition of the fact that useful, high-quality questions are just as valuable as high-quality answers. Asking a good question is difficult, takes practice, and is a meaningful contribution to the community at large, critical to our mission of building a high-quality library of questions and answers to practical programming problems.

No other changes are being made to the reputation system. Receiving downvotes on one of your questions will still reduce your reputation by the same amount as before. Casting downvotes on questions is still "free", in the sense that it does not reduce the reputation of the voter.

Why? You can find more detailed background information in my answer here, including a review of the history and an assessment of the facts that justify this change.

The biggest immediate change will be a substantial increase in user reputation scores, and thus an increase in the number of users having certain privileges.

As with far too many events of late, this change has been accompanied by a fair amount of drama. The proposed policy modifications were privately announced to community moderators by staff members some time back. Unfortunately, a less-than-ethical member of the larger Stack Exchange moderator community leaked this private communication to the public, and did so in a rather sensationalist way. I want to commend the Stack Exchange employees both for soliciting feedback from moderators and for listening to that feedback. I would ask that the community focus on the facts of the announcement and the policy as it has actually been implemented.

To that end, if you have questions, concerns, comments, or other feedback about this change, please post it as an answer here. You can also express your sentiments silently by voting. As always, we ask that you keep your feedback constructive and respectful. Feedback from those who cannot comply with this requirement is subject to removal.

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    We already have newbies complaining about these simple questions with hundreds of upvotes. Not very welcoming to double the score of these, forcing the poor new stackoverflowers to work even harder to catch up!
    – Patrice
    Commented Nov 13, 2019 at 19:33
  • 279
    At this point I'm more and more surprised that we still come to SO. This might not last long, though. I feel so betrayed... Commented Nov 13, 2019 at 19:38
  • 158
    I actually agree with this. Perhaps not the retroactive. But then again why should they not be same values as new upvotes. I find it way harder to write a question than a answer. And usually answers get far more upvotes than questions that can take up to hours to write good. A simple 5 min answer can get more points than it actually should in just a few minutes.
    – Andreas
    Commented Nov 13, 2019 at 19:44
  • 335
    So valuing "lack of knowledge" the same as "actual knowledge" seemed like a good idea? I don't really care about the changes, but seems more like the goal is to get more questions, and so more content, not necessarily more good content in the form of good answers? This surely will benefit some of the top users, that early on have asked and answered their own questions on basic issues, with thousands of upvotes over the years.
    – adeneo
    Commented Nov 13, 2019 at 19:55
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    @adeneo A knowledge base cannot exist without high-quality questions to solicit good answers. The reputation system isn't valuing knowledge at all. Rather, it is valuing your contributions to the Stack Overflow knowledge base (and thus serves as an indirect proxy for your familiarity and experience with this platform). The fundamental thought behind this policy is that good questions are a net positive contribution to the Stack Overflow knowledge base. Content that is not good can and should continue to be signaled by downvotes, whether questions or answers.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Nov 13, 2019 at 20:03
  • 251
    @CodyGray - A fool can ask more questions than a wise man can answer, and at the end of the day SE still needs people that actually knows the answers to the questions, more than they do fools. My opinion is that answers should be valued higher than questions, and downvotes should count the same as upvotes, but what do I know, I've never really asked a single question?
    – adeneo
    Commented Nov 13, 2019 at 20:09
  • 110
    Most of my reputation has come from question asking so far. But honestly I think the 5/10 split was fair: it's harder and less gratifying to write an answer, and the question-asker usually has some real-world benefit to getting their question answered as well. Questions definitely have a lot of value, but I think answers have even more value. This is not a horrible change, but I'm a little unsure whether it's the right one. Have there not been enough high-quality questions?
    – Stephen
    Commented Nov 13, 2019 at 20:56
  • 87
    "The net effect will be to reward the contributions of everyone, including users who have bad questions that still exist on the site". Fixed that for you.
    – Herohtar
    Commented Nov 13, 2019 at 21:33
  • 78
    Please don't blame users for not downvoting when downvoting is a privilege that you have to unlock and costs more rep than upvoting.
    – Unihedron
    Commented Nov 13, 2019 at 21:40
  • 109
    @CodyGray The problem is, people don't downvote -- or even vote to close -- in cases where they should, and it seems to happen even less with all the recent push to be "nice". And people hand out upvotes just to "counter" a negative score on a question, which with this rep change rewards the poster even more than it previously did.
    – Herohtar
    Commented Nov 13, 2019 at 21:43
  • 41
    But some of us only post answers and didn't just have our rep doubled, so we don't yet have close vote privileges, and now the relative weight of our downvotes just got cut in half...
    – manveti
    Commented Nov 13, 2019 at 21:45
  • 212
    I just cannot figure out how can anyone that has spent more than five minutes moderating this site come to the conclusion that increasing reputation for the questions will actually result with more quality questions being asked. I am genuinely baffled.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Nov 13, 2019 at 22:33
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    More questions = more page views. More important now than curating good answers. I fear stackexchange is swirling the bowl thanks to a radically different vision being forced down by the CORP. If you still care about your ranking, and you concentrate on giving good answers, consider this the same as cutting the value of all your answers in half. Commented Nov 13, 2019 at 22:34
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    @CodyGray I'm sure you're caught in the middle of things here, but I couldn't help but notice who authored the blog introducing this change. It seems like SO in general is trying to continue on like it's business as usual with a blitz of blog posts and podcasts. There are much more important topics that need to be addressed and not swept under the rug, most importantly the breach of trust recent events have created.
    – jmoerdyk
    Commented Nov 13, 2019 at 23:32
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    "OK, we succeeded in getting the more annoying mods and users to resign, but what about the remaining high-rep users who insist on downvoting and closing, so hitting ad stats? They're mostly highly skilled and experienced developers who are,politically aware'' ... "Hey! I know how we can really piss them off while looking good - we can't take their rep, but we can devalue it!" Commented Nov 14, 2019 at 10:23

53 Answers 53

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I do not really mind the change per se, but it comes with problems attached.

  1. This has never been debated with the community, and it seems like yet another attack against the community, this time without even the pretense of debate (unless you count some meta post from 2010). Look. I get it, everybody is complaining nowadays, things are tense, SE is a company and they can do what they want, etc. etc. But why are they pushing so much to alienate their user base, and is there any purpose to this change other than panem et circenses to celebrate the new CEO?
  2. What about horrible "historical" questions that can't be nuked out of existence because the answers are still great? Those gathered quite a lot of upvotes. Do the askers really deserve a reputation bump? I keep hearing "vote content not people" and duh-uh, I get it. But that content is still bad and does not deserve a double reputation for upvotes. That is one example of problems I can think of.

The question I asked in meta was not well received overall, and I might have had better luck on meta SO, but TL;DR, I think this is damaging in terms of relationships between SE and the user base, and may also have some potential damage on how the sites work (especially SO) - seemingly nobody cared to investigate before hand.

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  • What are some examples of horrible "historical" questions? Commented Nov 14, 2019 at 10:33
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    @PeterMortensen here's one, top of my head.
    – Mena
    Commented Nov 14, 2019 at 10:36
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    @PeterMortensen to be excruciatingly clear: the answers are great. The Q&A does have value (at the very least because it's a dupe magnet for similar, crappy questions). But is the reputation bonus deserved for the original asker? No way.
    – Mena
    Commented Nov 14, 2019 at 10:38
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This could be a good opportunity to increase the reputation "weight" of downvotes from 2 to a larger number, which some people want.

Since you probably want to do all changes to reputation retroactively (presumably for technical reasons of database query performance), many people would be dissatisfied with such a change. But together with a massive increase in "free" reputation points on questions, such a change would be much less painful, to the point where you could actually implement it, and ignore the 0.1% of users who would lose some reputation points.

However, now any hope for such a change is lost. Did anyone think about the downvote-change opportunity when doing the upvote-change? I found no mention of this consideration, so probably not. Was it possible? Certainly, if only such a change were announced for the community to discuss.

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    I don't know if it was considered by the team, but I agree with you that it probably was not. However, there are some compelling reasons not to increase the weight of downvotes.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Nov 17, 2019 at 22:20
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    I'm trying not to comment on this because I'm just nitpicking. What's shocking isn't the decision, but what wasn't even considered. This is portrayed as something that they thought through carefully over a period of time. How would something like this not even come up for consideration? How did no one even think about testing it first to see what the impact would be before making a large announcement and practically irreversible change? It gives the impression that the goal was just to dump lots of points and nothing else was even worth thinking about. Commented Nov 18, 2019 at 13:57
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The answer I gave on Robert's post on the network-wide meta still stands: If a question has more than X times the number of downvotes than upvotes (where X is 2; possibly less) and a minimum of Y downvotes (probably 2), it is a bad question. The user should not be able to net positive rep through pity upvotes.

If anything, this is going to make experienced users throw around more downvotes to "balance things out," which will make new posters feel worse when their questions have a net negative score.

SE should consider lowering the amount of upvote points given if a post is closed as off topic, or is a "bad question" (as defined above). This is coming from someone whose only question upvotes are on an offtopic question.

The other fear I have is that the edit privilege (both suggest and full) is now given out more easily. There are so many asinine edits that get approved that really should be rejected. By making it overall easier to get rep, we're going to have way more crap bumping to the front page.

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    I wanted to suggest similar idea for scaling, maybe questions that get 5 votes (in proportion to down votes) get scaled up and are worth 10 instead of 5. I'm not really sure how a system like that would work, or if it's even a good idea but could alleviate the concerns while rewarding good questions and not rewarding bad ones. But maybe the answer isn't a clear cut static value for a vote? Commented Nov 14, 2019 at 17:46
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I believe that this change is a bad idea, at least according to my understanding of reputation points on Stack Overflow.

I personally gained some rep in this change, but since I usually mostly post answers, the overall feeling I got is that the relevance of my reputation points decreased. This is a pity because I always thought of my rep. points as something that would be relevant when looking for a job (through Stack Overflow jobs or elsewhere).

But it seems that the underlying issue is basically the disagreement on the actual answer to this question:

What do reputation points represent on Stack Exchange?

1. Metric of trustworthiness and expertise

If reputation points are a metric of user trustworthiness and expertise, then I would argue that the weight of question upvotes could be reduced to even more, without affecting the correlation between user reputation and expertise.

Objectively, "experts" are people who have lots of answer upvotes. That's why sites like Experts-Exchange will require their customers to pay to get answers, and don't consider paying these same customers for asking a "great and useful question".

-- or --

2. Metric of contribution to the site/community/world knowledge

This is an entirely different thing, but one that is far harder to define IMHO.

Yes, a question like "how do I commit something using Git" will get tons of traffic to Stack Overflow. Yes, answers to this question will help millions of people. Yes, these answers wouldn't have existed if this question was never asked.

However, in this case, I would still argue that contribution through these questions is rather "accidental".

  • If a person wanted to learn about "committing to Git" in 2009, this person will be considered a great contributor 10 years later. Even if the wording in this question was initially crap, but got salvaged by other users into something reasonable, the asker will be considered a great contributor.

  • If a person wanted to know about "committing to Git" in 2019, this person will be heavily downvoted for not taking 5 minutes of their time and googling for a result.

  • At the same time, a person with a really hard problem, who might have spent hours in preparing the question, will get fewer upvotes and probably drive less traffic into the site.

So the contribution of asking a question (and I have personally asked a couple of questions which got a bunch of upvotes) is to essentially serve as a bunch of SEO-friendly keywords for driving traffic into Stack Overflow.


It's obvious that driving traffic is a good thing. People have daily jobs maintaining this site. It's running reliably 24/7 and both the hardware and the software need maintenance.

But I strongly believe that rewarding users for bringing more people to the site does not have a positive effect of the quality of this site.

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I think generally it's a neutral change - I don't see a huge benefit but I'm not sure it's a huge problem. I have two small concerns:

  • The low end reputation thresholds. Given that a lot of people will be reaching these quicker the impact should at least be considered. I'm mostly concerned about the ability to upvote, which will both make voting rings a bit easier to set up, and (less nefariously) lead to people who don't yet understand the community standards being upvoted more.

  • Bounties will become quite unbalanced. My experience is that voting voting on bounty questions is pretty indiscriminate with little regard for the quality (or on-topicness) of the question. I've also often found that bounty questions are more upvoted than the answers on them (probably mostly because the answers don't exist for the whole life of the bounty.

    Under the 5-rep system, my (anecdotal) impression was that a bounty question typically recovered 2/3 of the reputation in upvotes. Under the 10-rep system I suspect bounties will provide free rep and mostly serve to reward the asker. Given the idea of a bounty is "sacrifice some rep for exposure" this seems counterintuitive if there's no sacrifice. Maybe now would be a good time to kill off bounties?


A secondary point: in the justifications for this change you make the point that various changes to the system (beyond "amount of rep") help limit bad questions. Perhaps now would be a good time to bring forward the "3-votes to close" change that was trialled. A lot of the issues people have with this are about overall rewarding bad questions with (say) 3 downvotes and 1 sympathy upvote. If such questions could be reliably and quickly disposed of then that issue would go away.


A final quick edited in tertiary point: there was a comment from @shoq that I can't find right now on the initial 10->5 vote change ages ago that said something like: it's quite common to have a bad question, edited into something more acceptable, and the upvotes are rewarding the asker for the editors' work. I think that still applies (and would tend to apply less to answers, where the answerer has at least contributed a solution even if it's badly written).

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    "Perhaps now would be a good time to bring forward the "3-votes to close" change that was trialled." Absolutely! I am hugely in favor of this; always have been. My sources tell me that there is a good chance that may be introduced as a permanent feature. Along the same lines, another thing I desperately want is to expand the franchise to gold badge holders, and possibly even silver-badge holders. Gold badge holders in a tag should be able to instantly close a question for any of the off-topic, too broad, or unclear reasons. Same for a single silver-badge holder plus one other user.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Nov 14, 2019 at 23:27
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How will this affect old, historic questions that no longer meet current SO standards? It seems unfair that a historic question that doesn't meet today's standard with 100+ upvotes gets such a huge rep boost vs. new users asking similar questions that gets closed/downvoted?

At first this seemed a good change, but, the more I think about those old questions, the less I'm convinced...

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  • Someone else might correct me on this, but the rep recalculation still takes into account the 200 rep cap daily. So if someone earned 30 upvotes on questions in a day, instead of 150 rep they get 200 (hitting cap). Most old questions with votes coming at a rate that never approached cap would likely be near a flat double.
    – Unihedron
    Commented Nov 14, 2019 at 12:43
  • @Unihedron ahh that is slightly better than! Still .. scary if the latter applies more so than not
    – treyBake
    Commented Nov 14, 2019 at 12:45
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    Historic questions that don't meet today's standards can and should have historical locks applied to them. This will prevent any future voting. Unfortunately, there is another policy that was introduced (and largely celebrated by the community) that complicates this: you get to keep the reputation you earned for historical posts, even if those posts are deleted or locked. This sidesteps a lot of whining about content curation, but is clearly a double-edged sword. On the other hand, rep was never a perfect metric in the first place, and even with +5 rep, users were still making bank off these.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Nov 14, 2019 at 23:33
  • @CodyGray ah that makes sense, hopefully one day I'll get the rep priv. and start locking :)
    – treyBake
    Commented Nov 15, 2019 at 9:11
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    Historical locks are a moderator-only feature. If you come across a closed question that you think should be locked, you can raise a flag or talk to a moderator. Note that locks are only used on historical Q&A that add significant value, such that deleting them would be making the Internet a worse place. For all other old posts that do not meet our current standards, we just delete (which is a privilege granted by rep).
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Nov 15, 2019 at 20:37
  • @CodyGray That makes more sense :p haha Ok will do - ty
    – treyBake
    Commented Nov 16, 2019 at 3:24
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Answers are the only reward that matters to questions asked in good faith. An issue that hasn't been addressed is that of those that do not bother to accept and upvote answers to questions they've asked.

As with far too many events of late, this change has been accompanied by a fair amount of drama.

This drama is caused by inept community management by SO. Arbitrary decrees imposed upon communities are rarely well received. Tone deaf engagement and haughty insouciance compounds matters.

Feedback from those who cannot comply with this requirement is subject to removal.

Q.E.D.

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    The final quoted statement doesn't demonstrate anything of the sort you're trying to make it. We've always had a policy that feedback must be constructive and respectful. It used to be very clearly stated in the Code of Conduct as "be nice"; I still stand by that expectation, and interpret the CoC accordingly. Those who know me well know I am a firm believer in light moderation on Meta. I do not believe in censoring opinions, and I will only remove answers on the basis of either complete irrelevance or irredeemable offensiveness. The statement is really just a reminder, and fair warning.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Nov 14, 2019 at 21:59
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    @CodyGray Perhaps I should have expanded the quote: the requirements were constructive and respectful. This is a flag that people cannot air their true feelings if they don't like a change becuase the company is unwilling to listen to criticism and in fact wants to censor it.
    – James
    Commented Nov 15, 2019 at 9:41
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    @CodyGray I should add that I'm not making a judgement about you. I've not had any interactions with you other than this to do so. The statement is about the corporate actions, which I'm aware individuals are under pressure to comply with, often against their will.
    – James
    Commented Nov 15, 2019 at 9:44
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    Yeah, I get that you’re frustrated with the way the company has handled things lately, including both ignoring and even actively suppressing criticism. Me too. So I’m sensitive to suggestions that I might be doing that. I was sensitive before, but now I’m extra careful. So I just want to clarify that “constructive and respectful” as it appears in the announcement above is not a dog-whistle for “toe the company line”. I think the comments and answers here stand testament to that. It literally just means don’t attack individuals or be a jerk. Everyone’s done well following it; much appreciated
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Nov 15, 2019 at 20:43
  • @CodyGray I don't think they are so much following it as it just being their normal mode of operation. People who contribute to SO are much nicer than the corporate statements and policies paint them out to be. There is danger that these policies are generating the issues they are purported to solve. For instance, the bar for a question upvote is much higher for me now given the increased score it confers.
    – James
    Commented Nov 26, 2019 at 15:34
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As the changes were rolled out for reputation increase, my opinion on this is instead of giving +10 on upvote we might've given +5 on answer accept.

This way the question asker, if it is a new user, won't cross the initial privileges too early and also the question will fulfill its role that it was the post which can be answerable and acceptable as well.

The above is just my opinion on it.

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  • This will only result with accepting poor answers or answers that are not proper solutions. I have already seen plenty of cases where OP to counteract downvotes would accept just about anything to get two extra points. I can only imagine this behavior getting worse if your proposal would be implemented.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Nov 20, 2019 at 12:37
  • @DalijaPrasnikar if op has to counteract the downvote they will delete their post it is much more sensible than just to earn 2 rep on -10 rep even if op accept the poor answer the community member can still downvote that post and I don't think any sensible user will write a poor answer or answer an poor question and can get locked to delete the post which is now an acceptable answer and attract the wrath of community. that would be self destruct. Commented Nov 20, 2019 at 12:48
  • If question has upvoted answer or multiple answers it cannot be deleted by the OP. So accepting any answer is better than nothing. With your proposal instead of +2 rep such question can gain much more reputation just by accepting the answer. Poor questions with accepted answers are harder to remove - they need much more actions from people that have moderating powers. So, again, your proposal is not a good one.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Nov 20, 2019 at 13:02
  • Accepted answer also cannot be deleted by the answerer so answerer is sticking their neck, no questioner will not gain more than 5rep by accepting in any circumstance if it is poor post it will only gain downvotes and close votes but nonetheless it is better than some random upvote of some user who had half read the post than to acceptance of an answerer who had taken time by considering all the risk. Commented Nov 20, 2019 at 13:13
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I think the real problem of the scoring system is that it has failed to adjust itself to the shifting nature of the questions asked on Stack Overflow.

Take the What and where are the stack and heap question for example. It was asked more than 10 years ago, was upvoted 7841 times, starred 4664 times and awarded 58K to the person who offered the best answer. Impressive. And logical, too. It was a question about a subject in computer programming that every single programmer is aware of and is interested in.

Nevertheless, such questions (i.e. about core computer programming concepts such as the basic algorithmic structures, conditionals, loops etc) have all been asked and answered long ago; And for every programming language known to man, too!

On the contrary, try to answer one of the questions asked on SO nowadays. Most of the time, you are required to have knowledge of a very specific combination of programming language, code library, component framework and middleware just to come up with the easiest of answers. Good luck with that. Many of these questions are nearly impossible to answer if you're not a member of the team working with the exact set of tools and configuration as the OP (Welcome SO Teams!).

What does it mean as far as the scoring system is concerned?

It means that while questions are getting considerably harder to answer, accepted answers are quite unlikely to earn a good number of upvotes because the questions themselves are of interest to very few people: the OP and his team members, if any. It is a lose-lose situation for both the questions and the answers.

Bottom line is SO needs to dig deeper and take ground-breaking decisions so as to become attractive to its new (and old) members once again.

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Validation vs. Gamification

Points on Stack Overflow have two distinct uses. The first is the gamification experience. Points give us motivation to ask or answer questions, and reward us for that. The second aspect is validation. Points should be a mean for validation, and high reputation should be a measure of reliability. A user with a high reputation should be someone who is more likely to be reliable in communicating code solutions, and therefor could be trusted by the community in this aspect.

The problem with this decision is that it reduces the value of good answers. While a highly voted answer to a question is one that stands out and competes with other answers, questions are voted on a "me too" basis.

I think validation/reliability aspect of points has got a hit by this decision.

Changing rules retroactively

Perhaps Stack Overflow would like votes for questions to be based on their quality, and not a "me too" basis, which can justify this change. The main problem is that votes up to know were made on the basis of a different virtual contract, in which votes for questions are worth 5 points, and such a consideration was not presented. This retroactive change is kind of a violation of trust and contract.

However, there is another problematic aspect. The basic rules of Stack Overflow as a platform dictate that questions compete by their topic, not by their quality. Once someone posts a poorly written question on a relevant topic, another person can't write a better quality question on the same topic. This would be considered a duplication. As often done, the only solution is to edit the low quality question of the OP. Now users who posted a poor quality question can gain lots of reputation. Validation/reliability of points/reputation has decreased.

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    Yes, I think it's part of the goal (and straightforward in Management's post) that they indeed are devaluing answering in relation to asking. It's a decision they made, they value both as much. Commented Dec 5, 2019 at 22:17
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"When you're hungry, eat!" --Monkey D. Luffy

If I want to ask, I would; it doesn't matter whether you reward me or not. People have jobs/hobbies/etc and they amount (as per me) to them more than rep. points on SO. If they gotta ask they will.

Will increasing reputation reward have any effect on the frequency of "ORGANIC" questions?

NO - people will ask when they want to ask, when they have a problem that they think could be solved on SO

Of course you will increase the overall frequency of questions on SO once you bring in this new change but those "extra" questions will be nothing more than fabrications/googled/self-invented questions from people with a lots of free time on their hands. Most of these questions, no matter how good, will have a very minor real-world use because those having any real-world implications must already have been asked.

All along I have assumed your main motive behind this new change was to make people post more questions on the site, so this answer applies to that part only.

Regarding the real value of a question vs an answer - an answer is definitely more valuable as it keeps evolving over time, a question on the other hand is somewhat static.

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Is the real reason behind this change to increase the number of people able to moderate the sites (network wide)?

You say in your post:

The biggest immediate change will be a substantial increase in user reputation scores, and thus an increase in the number of users having certain privileges. (emphasis added)

Seems like this isn't a happy accident and more like the true intention. It is no secret that there has been a decrease in moderator activity.

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    There hasn't been a decrease in moderator activity, I still regularly see mods doing their work. Theres a decrease in moderators and I find it unlikely that there will be many candidates at the next election
    – Sayse
    Commented Nov 14, 2019 at 16:02
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    No, this is not the real reason. I say what you quoted b/c that is my practical assessment of the most significant effect that the recalculation will have. But that was not the motivation behind the change. The motivation was to address the disproportionality between askers and answerers, recognizing that the original tactic of reducing question rep gain didn't solve the problem of low-quality questions. These changes have been in the works for a very long time and genuinely have nothing to do with recent events motivating an exodus of trusted users.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Nov 14, 2019 at 19:06
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    Furthermore, as I say in a comment to a similar answer, this just wouldn't work, even if it were the intention. Giving a bunch of folks more reputation isn't going to do bupkis for the moderation gap. The tools don't do any good if people aren't actually using them.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Nov 14, 2019 at 19:07
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I don’t think this is a bad change. It was cheap to implement, and the reasoning for the rewards being set the way they were are not particularly convincing, either.

My only misgivings are:

  • While not inherently bad, it is also unclear to me what we gain by making this change, or what were we losing before.

  • Side effects:

    • Many users will achieve the upvote privilege sooner. It follows that there will be more upvotes around. Upvotes are nice, but they can make deleting poor content harder, which is key to curation efforts.
    • Recouping the cost for a bounty will be much easier. Bounties work because they are scare. If they are too easily recovered, these will be much more abundant (not only diluting their importance, but further strengthening the reputation-inflation feedback).
    • This could impact the question-ban process. While the algorithm is secret, reputation itself may play a role. I haven't seen question get tripped by the q-ban after they reach certain reputation thresholds, no matter how many poor (and poorly received) questions they post.
    • Etc.
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    The bottom portion of this answer goes into detail about what we were losing before, under the old question scoring system. A hopeful solution was introduced in 2010 to the already-recognized problem of the proliferation of low-quality questions. However, it failed to solve the problem, and actually compounded it in other ways. Since then, we've found better ways to address (although, unfortunately, not yet solve) the problem, so there's really no reason to keep the failed attempt around as policy.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Nov 13, 2019 at 22:27
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    Side effects are a very real concern. It's hard to run the numbers ahead of time because the rep system on this site is rather complicated (daily caps, etc.), but there will be lots of people gaining substantial amounts of rep, enough to, as you said, cause them to earn new privileges. I'm not sure that this will have noticeable effects, though. Upvotes already vastly exceeded downvotes, and DVs are still free. The bigger issue is that the recent mass exodus of quality-minded users has led to a sharp decline in DVs over the past month. That consequences of that will get blamed on this...
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Nov 13, 2019 at 22:29
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    @CodyGray - so the effects are unpredictable, SO had the option to try it and see what happens, but instead decided to start with a huge, irreversible change. From that perspective this looks 10,000x worse. Commented Nov 13, 2019 at 22:38
  • @CodyGray Sorry, but why isn't that answer part of the blog post? Or at least why isn't there a link to that answer? You shouldn't need to comment with this link. IMHO the biggest problem in the recent events is/was that (most of) the staff of SE Inc. does insufficient communication. [I know, you are not SE Inc. staff so please don't feel offended by this comment] Commented Nov 14, 2019 at 7:55
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    @CodyGray The "mass exodus of quality-minded users" is literally because SE keeps making decisions like this, with very little consideration for the community. So yes, we can blame the sharp decline of downvotes on this (and all the other recent changes)
    – Jesse
    Commented Nov 14, 2019 at 12:16
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    @Ocaso I'm a community-elected moderator, not a staff member. They don't let me write blog posts on the official blog. I agree the rationale should have been in there, and the company should be doing a better job of explaining themselves to veteran users. I'm doing what I can to bridge that gap.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Nov 14, 2019 at 17:38
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    @CodyGray I know that and I know that you are doing great work. Thanks a lot for your work! Commented Nov 14, 2019 at 19:02
  • @Jesse, the "mass exodus of quality-minded users" is the desired effect. The pronoun "we" has been banned from SE and these people are not welcome anymore.
    – brasofilo
    Commented Nov 15, 2019 at 15:34
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I've upvoted a number of the other answers already. I'm in agreement with the criticisms they level.

Further, the aspect of this that makes the least sense to me is retrospective recalculation — I made my upvote/downvote decisions based on one set of weights. Now those decisions will be represented as if I had evaluated them differently.

This is akin to recalculating the score of a sporting event as if the players had taken the same actions but been playing a completely different game. That might be an interesting exercise. But it probably doesn't appeal to fans of the actual game.

I don't care about this change nearly as much as I care about having Stack Overflow as a useful resource.

And because that's what I care about this change only adds to the late unpleasantness.

SO, fix your stuff.

Please.

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    You should not make voting decisions based upon weight or the presence of existing votes. Instead, you should be voting based on your assessment of the usefulness and/or correctness of the post. If you thought the question was valuable, then you upvoted it; if you thought it was not (because it showed no research effort, didn't make sense, or was otherwise not useful), then you downvoted it. Because we later change the weight of those votes does not have any effect on the core judgement there, the value of the post. For more on why it's retroactive, see Mark's excellent answer.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Nov 16, 2019 at 1:49
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    Actually, I should make voting decisions according to my own criteria and not yours. This has a good deal to do with what it actually means to vote—in any context. If a vote has a consequence then I think it ought to be considered. One of the consequences of this silly vote are these silly numbers which this change makes even sillier. Yes, changing the weight has an effect on the core judgement. You’re calling for the core judgment to be a series of simplistic bijections when in fact they will be reported with a (apparently capricious) weight. I prefer my votes not contradict reality. Commented Nov 16, 2019 at 16:16
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    OP solicited feedback and mine has been given. I rarely comment on meta. As I said above I care very little about this change per se. As one of the vast sea of eyeballs whose attention SE sells for a living I can only tell the company this — keep doing things the way you’re doing them and you’ll have less of my attention to sell. I doubt I’m alone. But I hope it works out. Best. Commented Nov 16, 2019 at 16:24
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    A relevant MSE post: Today's change has retroactively changed the meaning of our past votes. Should we be able to change them? (I make the case for "no", similar to what Cody says, in my answer there.)
    – V2Blast
    Commented Nov 19, 2019 at 0:08
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I'll run the risk of getting hammered, and share my opinion. I think it's both great and also unimportant, or at least, less significant than everyone is making it out to be.

I read above that the reward for asking a question is getting an answer, and I agree with that. But, questions are what bring people to the site and without questions, there'd be no answers. That's not to say I think answers are less valuable, or second class citizens though. Exceptional questions deserve exceptional rewards, as do answers.

Should basic homework questions should be rewarded? No, of course not and that is why we have the power to vote on the quality of the questions. Increasing rep points won't change this, we have always had homework type questions and will continue to do so in the future.

I believe I have contributed fairly to SO over the years but rewarded unfairly in some cases. A few of my questions have allowed users to gain hundreds, if not thousands of rep points and so if we put value into reputation, then at some point the reward system becomes disproportional in favor of answers. An exceptional answer to a basic question won't get the reward it deserves either.

I've also worked hard on an answer, only to be overshadowed by a more significant user who receives up-votes just because of who he is.

Both questions and answers require hard work, but may not be rewarded equally/fairly.

Let's focus for a minute on other SO network sites though, like Movies & TV. I've been a contributor since it was a proposal on Area 51, when questions were super critical to the survival of the site. I worked hard asking good questions with a focus on quality as well as relevance to a broader audience working to get the site a spot in the list, to prove it was worth promoting. Shouldn't that mean something? Maybe it does, maybe my reward for that effort is a site that I can enjoy and ask my questions and share my knowledge.

I also spent a good effort finding unanswered questions and doing my best to provide answers because a site with a lot of unanswered questions isn't any better than a site with no questions at all.

My point is, questions and answers are equally important in their own ways. Maybe this is a skewed point of view towards newer/smaller SO sites, but I have seen the system working on SO as bad questions get down voted and closed, duplicates are found and edits are made to improve the quality of questions, and increasing the value of a vote won't change that.

Edit: I forgot to address the retro update, but thinking about it, I don't have an opinion for or against; I'm still on the fence.

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    Hi @dustin-davis, I will probably be hammered for that but I think good questions are part of the deal for any site. With good questions, can you only have good answers.
    – Andy K
    Commented Nov 16, 2019 at 15:57
-2

Has anyone considered increasing to +7 or +8, not all the way to +10? There's no obvious reason why a question upvote should be equal to an answer vote, especially given the different reasons questions get upvoted which aren't dependent on quality.

Is increasing question rep going to encourage people to spend more time formulating their questions better? Maybe for some people.


A separate problem is that most question upvotes are based on the subject matter of the question, not whether it's well-crafted or not. And old questions with useful answers are often edited into shape by other people, with the original asker getting the benefit of the rep.

In the overall scheme of things, a good and highly upvoted question with canonical answers is what we want, but the system doesn't reward everyone who contributes to that.

Well-written questions are valuable as duplicate targets and as clear explanations of a problem (making it possible for people to quickly tell if their problem is the same problem). Possibly this rep change will help with that, even if it has a side-effect of rewarding a lot of users who don't deserve it.

Bad questions will get asked regardless of rep, so we'll always have to filter that out. The end goal of SO is to have good Q&As, and the gamification helps but doesn't always match perfectly with effort / contribution toward making that happen. It's not necessary for that to be the case, but closer is better for rep to have any "meaning" to people as a measure of their contribution or their knowledge in various tags.

I don't think +10 makes sense but +7 or +8 would be ok. Still an acknowledgement that answers require more knowledge of the subject matter, while writing good questions requires some, and basic knowledge of MCVE / debugging procedures and writing skill.

-4

Huh...? Yeah... Maybe it's a bad nightmare coming true. First finding the right track and morale in 2010 and then suddenly losing all of it about a decade later to just bring in more Internet traffic and a lot more garbage to the platform.

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    Perhaps you could expand on how you think this change is going to either "bring in more internet traffic" and/or "a lot more garbage to the platform"? There's a fundamental assumption being made here, namely that the reputation system attracts traffic, but I'm not sure that is the case.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Nov 18, 2019 at 19:47
-6

Almost all the responses here are from experienced question answerers rather than askers. As one of the latter, here is my perspective.

I am far from a professional programmer, but I do put a lot of thought into my questions. Nothing is more disheartening than a downvote. There have been times when I avoided asking a question for fear it would drain my reputation. Now, I can ask my questions with more confidence thanks to the change.

For those of you who say this will reward garbage questions, you have forgotten one thing. It used to be that you would lose reputation for every downvote you cast, but now you can downvote to your heart's content without any penalty!

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    I think this is a very valid argument, and as mentioned by the poster, the only one that is apparently from a heavy asker, which is actually the target of the change. I fail to understand why it attracted any downvotes at all. On the bright side, with 3 upvotes and 6 downvotes, it would have gained 18 rep points under the new system, even if it was a question :p Commented Nov 18, 2019 at 2:17
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    We didn't lose reputation for downvoting questions before, it was only answers. It is still only answers.
    – S.S. Anne
    Commented Nov 25, 2019 at 19:36
-11

Upvoting questions should just not be allowed. The creator of a question should only get reputation from the upvotes of the answers to his/her question. So let's say, for example: each upvote in an answer earns the person who wrote the answer some points and the person who wrote the question earns some other points for each upvote on any answer. This way the experts get rewarded for sharing their knowledge and the ones seeking for knowledge get rewarded for bringing to light problems common to many people.

-12

This is stupid.

Why do this? And also retroactively?? Plus, people spam the ups but rarely the down votes.
Also, why are downvotes on questions free? Um, wake up! If answer downvotes reduce reputation, questions should too. Some questions deserve to lose dozens of reputation — sometimes more. So why is that free??

Plus, downvotes are already too low. -2 rep?? Are you serious? If anything, upvotes should be -4 and downvotes should be +10. Why? People SPAm the upvotes so that it really doesn't matter if it's just +4.

Why wasn't the community consulted? I thought this was a community site!

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    Where did you get the -4 from? Isn't it -2? Commented Dec 2, 2019 at 9:05
  • 3
    Some questions deserve to lose dozens of reputation — sometimes more. Yes, asking a terrible question deserves to lose significant reputation. Casting question downvotes is free so more people will be willing to cast them at all, allowing us to penalize bad questions. I agree with your conclusion (that this change is not good), but your first paragraph doesn't support this conclusion at all and is arguing against itself. Commented Dec 2, 2019 at 11:53
-22

The ultimate goal is that reputation precisely represents contribution, but contribution is very subjective which can never be valued precisely. So discussing what is a better reputation system doesn't have much sense.

The better route is to define some goals that can be measured, like some site statistics, and based on the fixed measurable goals, do experiments and find out which system gauge is better. You can never predict the result before the experiments, like the economy system.

Anyway, Stack Overflow should limit the reputation gain for a single question/answer since that gain is mainly coming from popularity. You can upvote a Q&A for any times, but the reputation gain is only for some limited time.

Stack Overflow can also provide the feature to hide the reputation value. Instead only show some levels like L1/L2.../L9.../L999, like in RPG games, or tags like moderator/new contributor, and then we can focus more on Q&As instead of the annoying +1/-1s. At least give us a personal option to hide reputation and get free.

Updated:

Another way to get rid of the noise is that when a user turn on the "no-reputation" feature option, the user can't see the user's own reputation any more and the votes in the user's Q&As is hidden to itself too, but not to other users. Messages about votes/reputations are gone too.

And the name "reputation" is not appropriate either. "Experience points" like in RPG is better.

And base privilege on reputation is not right either. Each privilege should based on its own gauge. All gauges of different privileges are based on a common user activity history database. Then you can change reputation system independent from the privilege system.

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    Re "for any times": Do you mean "many times"? Commented Nov 14, 2019 at 10:48
  • @ Peter Mortensen No it's any natural number. The meaning is any user can vote a question for 1 time, and the question can be voted up for any times. The votes decide the search result. But the author of the Q/A can't get votes*10 reputation, it's limited to like 5*10 reputation. It's crazy that a simple pupular question get 1000+ votes, the 999 votes come from pupularity, not contribution. I'v seen user with 10K+ reputation only have 3 asked questions. That's the most needed modification since the contribution is just noise in front of pupularity.
    – jw_
    Commented Nov 15, 2019 at 7:20
-27

Clearly all the promotions this will generate isn't related to the drama with the community? We're having a hard time getting moderation and clearing queues? I mean SE could just hope some more people take on responsibilities for the internet points.

I'd like to think there's some deeper meaning to all of this but I can't imagine that's SE's intent any longer.

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    Stack Overflow has always had trouble clearing review queues. The close vote review queue has hovered around 10k questions since it was introduced. It's also worth pointing out that these changes have been planned for months, and it's something that some of the CMs and moderators have been thinking about doing for years. This isn't a cynical ploy to increase the number of users with moderation privileges. Even if it were, it wouldn't work. Moderating this site is a lot of effort, and it requires dedicated users, not just scores on a scoreboard.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Nov 13, 2019 at 20:06
-32

Such a giant wall of negativity.

I for one just want to thank the SO team for this change. Good questions are just as valuable as good answers. It was high time that they were valued as such.

Many of the concerns raised are mostly non-issues. You only get access to review queues at 500 rep. That is 50 upvotes without any downvotes. Many people seem to invent doom scenarios over this, but honestly, higher rep only seem to correspond to how jaded people have become (case in point with many of the replies above). The rep gate only exists so people are at least a little bit familiar with the site. People may reach the threshold a little bit earlier, but overall I doubt people that only want to post their homework on Stack Overflow are going to ruin Stack Overflow by doing queues that reward no reputation.

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    I'd agree with you... if there weren't people who upvote "everything" rather than only upvoting good questions. Commented Nov 14, 2019 at 11:28
  • 2
    Do you expect 50 of such people driving by on one question? One such person casting 50 votes on 50 questions? Trash questions rarely get a score above 0 and on average should still get a negative score, which means someone needs to post at least 63 questions to get 500 rep with 0-score on all of their questions. I hope that the system would severely limit that person at that point. If it doesn't, the 167 questions someone needed to ask before is not going to change anything either. Both amounts are huge, even if you just put your homework here.
    – Sumurai8
    Commented Nov 14, 2019 at 13:08
  • 8
    The problem I see is not people getting access to tools they're not ready for (that might also be a problem, but I'd consider it secondary at best), but that the number of help vampires and the amount of homework questions wil increase even more. This is a downward spiral that (at least in my experience) leads to knowledgeable people losing interest and leaving, which in turn leads to overall decreased quality of the content, which in turn leads to less people coming to the site. I've seen this happen in other communities before. Commented Nov 14, 2019 at 13:09
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    Yes, indeed. Who would complain about more reputation points? But then there is rep envy. Commented Nov 14, 2019 at 15:33
  • 1
    The negativity is not for increasing the rep on questions, it is for not increasing the penalty for down votes. In fact, more stringent policies are required to stop bad quality questions and make SO a great place again. How many times would you like to read and answer to someone asking about the best library to solve X, for example?
    – Fr0zenFyr
    Commented Nov 18, 2019 at 18:52
  • Thanks, I totally agree with you. Commented Dec 6, 2019 at 13:48
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