116

Taking a look upon the last years moderator elections data, I have noticed the following to decrease:

  • how many users visiting the site are actually interested in the election
  • the ratio of candidates to moderator open positions
Year Visited site Visited election Visited election ratio Votes Voter turnout Candidates Positions Ratio
2016 194203 88587 0.46 30277 0.34 12 3 4.0
2017 202091 89793 0.44 30584 0.34 11 2 5.5
2018 226336 89492 0.40 30016 0.34 13 3 4.3
2019 236387 92007 0.39 30520 0.33 11 2 5.5
2020 324343 84747 0.26 32225 0.38 6 2 3.0
2021 328410 83182 0.25 28754 0.35 6 2 3.0

The Visited election ratio and the candidate count have decreased quite a bit. I am wondering about how the community perceives this decline.

I do not know about the possible consequences of having such a low number of candidates, but higher voter turnout is typically desirable.

48
  • 12
    I perceive it as increasing the odds that an individual nominee will be elected. Oh... were you hoping for musings of a more philosophical nature?
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 30, 2021 at 7:54
  • 73
    users don't know the nominees and don't care about who is a moderator or not
    – nbk
    Commented Oct 30, 2021 at 7:56
  • 8
    What I can see is that the voting is roughly consistent. It's around 30k give or take. So, the voter count is more or less stable. The group that is eligible to vote increases. Which is the natural sate of things - the cases of users losing the ability to vote is exceptionally low. Most users tend to only gain reputation and thus the tendency is for the eligible voter pool to increase. I don't think that necessarily correlates with higher amount of votes being cast.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Oct 30, 2021 at 8:02
  • 66
    Well, let's see... someone who cares about the long-term curated content of this site can volunteer to be a moderator, which is not only a thankless job, but most of the actions one takes result in "You're a big meanie and you're being mean to me!!!" responses from left, right, and sideways, taken together with the fact that -- with all of the cruft that this site attracts -- moderator-level curation is very much like trying to fight a buzz-saw with a pair of chopsticks. Gee, why doesn't everyone want to be a moderator? Commented Oct 30, 2021 at 10:15
  • 153
    Considering it started declining drastically after 2019, I think you know the reason.
    – Andrew T.
    Commented Oct 30, 2021 at 13:06
  • 8
    @AndrewT., was that the Monica incident or Covid? Both could have affected things significantly on their own. Commented Oct 30, 2021 at 17:18
  • 13
    @computercarguy - I'd have thought with covid increasing the amount of remote work there would have been more oppotunities for people to moderate.
    – Sayse
    Commented Oct 30, 2021 at 18:14
  • 76
    Personally, I have no interest in moderating because it appears as though SO Corp has very little interest in supporting the moderators, choosing instead to shill whatever new product they can append onto the StackOverflow name
    – Sayse
    Commented Oct 30, 2021 at 18:16
  • 27
    This is a billions dollars company. Nothing wrong with that, but they should hire moderators and people to filter content and questions and apply its policies. The company does not need any free and, in many cases, unprofessional help. They can pay it. Commented Oct 30, 2021 at 20:44
  • 18
    Back in 2010, I were moderator on a very big forum, with a lot of traffic. This was not a company, even less a billion dollar company, but anyway, parts of the adds revenue were given to the active mods. It is maybe unfortunate, but this is it, this is the premises of the WEB 3.0. A job deserves a revenue, content providers, peoples bringing traffic, should all get a revenue as well. That's it, it is unavoidable.
    – NVRM
    Commented Oct 30, 2021 at 20:54
  • 8
    @Sayse, as someone who has recently been unemployed, I spent most of my time trying to find a job as well as working on projects trying to replace a day job with my own side business. I didn't have more time to moderate because I was "not busy with work". Commented Oct 31, 2021 at 0:25
  • 33
    Very minor quibble, but why was Shree's nomination not counted? He was absolutely interested in the position, and since "interest" is what you're attempting to quantify, omitting his nomination seems inappropriate.
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented Nov 1, 2021 at 0:00
  • 11
    Your "Visited election ratio" is being skewed by something you didn't even consider. The upvote rep change on questions (which occurred between the 2019 and 2020 elections) massively increased the reputation of a large amount of users which are either less active, or simply use SO as a tool, they have never cared about the election. More users with rep to vote which don't care about election = lower visited election ratio. Commented Nov 1, 2021 at 5:57
  • 12
    @FreelanceConsultant: "People should be allowed to do whatever they want." No, this only leads to anarchy. Rep-moderation is helpful but someone needs to be the arbitrator/judge in cases where the community is divided, or in the case of egregious rule violations. Moderation is necessary and despite some of SE's more questionable decisions in recent years I feel the mods here do not swing their hammers as forcefully as in other communities. Elected mods also give the community a voice to choose, or else be given the opportunity to be the change they wish to see in this world.
    – codewario
    Commented Nov 1, 2021 at 17:54
  • 8
    "...an obscure... website is no exception..." Stack Overflow is far from an obscure website. I'm not sure what you meant by this.
    – codewario
    Commented Nov 1, 2021 at 17:54

7 Answers 7

163

This is one of the very few situations when a single word answer will suffice:

Monica

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  • 49
    The Stack Overflow executives responsible continue to show zero penitence for acting in a manner many regarded as significantly unjust (not to mention petty, careless, and then increasingly calculated and spiteful). They shouldn't think that simply because many of us gave up our "protest usernames" we've forgotten what they did. I genuinely don't think they care - I can't tell if their assumption of nonchalance hides arrogance or cowardice. [1/2]
    – Rounin
    Commented Oct 31, 2021 at 16:16
  • 37
    Ultimately, it doesn't matter that they don't care. We will continue to remember what they did and the appalling stain their actions left on the Stack Overflow brand. I'm happy (more than happy) to come to this platform to help aspirant coders seeking help. But I hold my nose to avoid the stench emanating from this organisation (as currently constituted) given its support for the executives in question. [2/2]
    – Rounin
    Commented Oct 31, 2021 at 16:16
  • 22
    This whole s*-show has scared off or highly demotivated a lot of people, including a lot of people who were interested in moderation in general. This is probably the primary driver of the decline right now. It'll probably even out over time as new users join who weren't around for it, but it'll be felt for some years yet.
    – Magisch
    Commented Nov 1, 2021 at 8:52
  • 18
    Except it wasn't an isolated event, but several. There were numerous strange features rolled out during summer 2019 including highly questionable adverts. And then after the whole "pronoun-gate" debacle in autumn 2019, there was also the firing of CMs and lots of other SO staff in early 2020.
    – Lundin
    Commented Nov 1, 2021 at 15:11
  • 4
    @EricDuminil That makes no difference until the corporate person is suitably penitent. The company can only be redeemed by unequivocally admitting fault and unconditionally offering to reinstate Monica, regardless of whether she's even interested. Commented Nov 1, 2021 at 17:57
  • 9
    Some people's ego I swear - I just don't get it. Even if she isn't interested (she most likely is NOT interested at all as she moved on) I would at least ... even if I was CEO ... I would at least reach out to her, tell her I was sorry, ask her to come back (even if she doesn't) and buy her a frigging box of cookies or some sh**. This way I can at least become less of a scum bag? I mean its all said and done, but by at least doing this everyone else can say "Well at least the CEO came along late and apologized..." and we can all live happily ever after without that scarlet letter on us.
    – JonH
    Commented Nov 1, 2021 at 19:02
  • 5
    @Lundin Fair enough, but the Monica incident was the point at which it become more than abundantly clear that things had gone completely off the rails. The weird features and attitudes didn't mark the company and staff as completely uninterested in the well being of our community the way Monica's firing did (at least for a majority of users, though the collectivist rhetoric set off some alarm bells for some of us). While the further firings certainly solidified that perspective, Monica was the starting point that made it impossible to assume good faith any longer.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Nov 2, 2021 at 1:51
  • 3
    @Lundin I suppose you might call it the "Pearl Harbor" of Stack Overflow, the moment we were forced to acknowledge that neutrality was no longer an option.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Nov 2, 2021 at 2:22
  • 5
    @Lundin - Yeah, I feel that. "the firing of CMs and lots of other SO staff".... I know you are well aware, but for me, from a kind of personal place, I took this very personally. I have great respect for the wave of people who were removed during that time period, and the exchange as a whole suffered a great loss with their departure.
    – Travis J
    Commented Nov 2, 2021 at 6:20
  • 4
    This was the catalyst; the last large crack in the dam before it finally gave way. The reality is that this pressure had been building for damn near close to a decade before this.
    – Makoto
    Commented Nov 2, 2021 at 17:49
  • 1
    I find it unfortunate that one event seems to often overshadow the far larger long-term issues that came to light around the same time.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Nov 2, 2021 at 17:52
  • 6
    @KevinB You would find my comments above interesting, I think. I don't totally disagree with you, but sometimes it's helpful to see a long string of smaller events in light of the most drastic result that comes from them or that shares the same underlying cause. It can be helpful in that it very quickly provides some much needed context and an indisputable indication of the severity. It can be a lot harder to convince people that there even is a problem if it's death by a thousand paper cuts or a slow boiling frog.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Nov 3, 2021 at 4:55
  • 2
    @jpmc26 eh, i disagree. Zeroing in on a single event means it's easy to just handwave the rest away and forget about it... Particularly when that single event is as "resolved" as it's ever going to get. A lot of the people involved in it aren't even here anymore.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Nov 3, 2021 at 14:54
  • 4
    @KevinB No one expects SO to do anything specifically about Monica or is trying to get them to. People are continuing to talk about it because it reflects on the nature of the problems. No, they can't go back and undo the damage, but they could admit it was wrong and there are things they could change right now to fully reverse course on the harmful policies and ideology.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Nov 4, 2021 at 1:56
  • 10
    To put it in other words: the firing of Monica Cellio and the subsequent fallout were a symptom of a much larger underlying problem, and while the symptom has been handled, the underlying problem still persists despite all attempts to handwave it away. Commented Nov 4, 2021 at 8:11
64

No answer will entirely answer this question, but one thing I notice is that there were minor fluctuations all along, but a big drop from 2019 to 2020:

Year Candidates that nominated themselves
2016 12
2017 11
2018 13
2019 11
2020 6
2021 6

Many Stack Exchange mods resigned in 2019 and early 2020. Some were struck-off-strength later in 2020, due to not signing the new version of the moderation agreement. See here for a list of these. The reasons those Stack Exchange mods resigned or refused to sign the new moderator agreement were probably similar to the reasons for the drop in candidates from 11 to 6 between 2019 and 2020. What 2021 has shown might simply be that we have not recovered from those issues.

The opening sentence to this answer was meant to indicate that this answer is by no means meant to be a comprehensive account of all the possible things that happened, but it's one possible contribution.

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  • 5
    The new moderator agreement didn't become mandatory until 2020. It was, however, an issue by the 2020 election. Moderators elected in the 2020 election were aware they needed to be willing to sign the new moderator agreement, but moderators on SO/SE were not removed for not signing it until well after the 2020 SO election. I don't recall any SO moderators being removed because of a refusal to sign the new agreement, but it's possible I'm not remembering that correctly.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Oct 30, 2021 at 23:34
  • Yea but as the link in my answer shows, mods like Loong refused to sign the new mod agreement because they didn't agree with it, and likewise, some SO members might not have nominated themselves for election due to the same reason. It's not a complete answer though.
    – Nike
    Commented Oct 30, 2021 at 23:48
  • 2
    The issue I was trying to point out is that you said "...or were struck-off-strength due to not signing the new version of the moderation agreement in that year" where "that year" is referring to 2019. There were a lot of SE mod resignations in 2019, but, as far as I know, no mods were "struck-off-strength due to not signing the new version of the moderation agreement" in 2019. The new moderator agreement wasn't final until July 2020. OTOH, it did affect willingness to be a candidate in 2020. I've edited to try to make it clearer.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Oct 31, 2021 at 0:06
  • 14
    I agonized over signing the new moderator agreement when it was going into effect. I ultimately concluded that there were no salient differences compared to the old moderator agreement, which I had already signed (twice). I'm curious where you think the issues are with the current moderator agreement, @Joshua, and which ones you think are new. The company has always had a wide degree of latitude in how it chose to treat moderators and enforce policies. That the moderator agreement reflects that is not a sign of something new.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 31, 2021 at 5:31
  • 5
    @CodyGray Section 4 and 5 are the problem. 4 essentially allows SE to amend the mod agreement arbitrarily. And 5 is pretty much "I will follow orders from SE", just with weak enough language to be meaningless. In practice this only spells out the reality that always existed, which in the end is why I signed it. But I liked it better when this part was implicit, as that meant that if SE actually exercised their power this way they would not have any agreement to hide behind. To me personally this agreement is only valid until SE misuses sections 4 or 5, which is pretty much the same as before. Commented Oct 31, 2021 at 12:26
  • 5
    @Mari-LouA And what's your point? Commented Oct 31, 2021 at 13:10
  • 10
    I think most people want the Mod Agreement to be some sort of bulwark against moderators being ramrodded into doing something by SE. But... that position has never been a realistic one. FWIW, the current CM team has been very open and fair with the moderators since that time. It's to the point that if another Monica incident were to occur, I would not only be truly shocked, I'd probably resign and never look back. And I doubt I would be alone...
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Oct 31, 2021 at 18:22
  • 6
    @Joshua The is damage done (I knew there would be and even predicted it). It will not easily be undone. The point here is that, at least for now, most (if not all) the actions are in the "undo" column.
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Oct 31, 2021 at 20:32
  • 10
    @Joshua I suspect the agreement is not the problem as much as the extremity of the abuses by the people with authority. The fact is the underlying issue was used to effect an ideological purge against those with more traditional worldviews and those who support the rights of others to act according to those sincerely held beliefs. SO has the legal right to run the company as they see fit, but they chose to run it in a grossly immoral, divisive, and discriminatory manner. That's not so much a problem with the agreement as much as it is one with the moral fortitude of those enforcing it.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Nov 1, 2021 at 10:13
  • 2
    @Machavity Perhaps this is not what you mean, but it sounds like you're saying that it's unreasonable to expect that SO respects people's right to act according to their conscience, or maybe more pertinently, to refrain from acting and allowing others to act in their stead. Do you think a moderator agreement that encodes some sort of mutual respect in this regard is unreasonable?
    – jpmc26
    Commented Nov 1, 2021 at 10:16
  • 6
    @Trilarion Walking away from a community you spent years contributing to because the people in authority abandoned its original values and instituted a certain kind of sociopolitical radicalism in their place is most certainly painful.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Nov 1, 2021 at 10:25
  • 1
    @Machavity That's a perfectly fair and reasonable position to take. But for a lot of us, one of those was enough to cut our losses. Especially after it was never properly redressed.
    – Magisch
    Commented Nov 1, 2021 at 11:53
  • 6
    @jpmc26 The key there is "Does SO have a right to dictate what goes on in its network?" and the answer is "Yes". They pay for it, after all. Should moderators have the right of conscience? Also yes, but that means that if you disagree with what SO wants, ultimately SO wins. That having been said, the CM team that exists now has never suggested that they would merely foist such things upon us. The communication between CMs and mods is really good (due in no small part to SO investing in expanding the CM team), and, so far, they all seem cognizant of what failure to communicate breeds.
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Nov 1, 2021 at 12:51
  • 4
    SO might "pay" with money, but it's the users that volunteer their time and knowledge.
    – Nike
    Commented Nov 1, 2021 at 15:44
  • 4
    @Machavity The problem with talking about the new CM team is that most of the people with objections of conscience about this particular issue left or were removed already, so the people who needed that accommodation are gone. And I am damn sure no one with such objections would run at this point. So there's no substance to the claim that the current CM team would be more respectful; the damage has already been done. I certainly haven't seen any indication they're doing anything to bring different perspectives back in, so that might be seen as implicit approval of the policy and the result.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Nov 2, 2021 at 1:56
46

I'll speak for myself, since I've run twice and had given a thought to running once more before a lot of things blew up.

The moderator community is largely driven by power users and users who participate more regularly with the community on Meta and keep tabs on what's going on with MSE. Some have also formed other communities and keep fairly close-knit (thinking of Charcoal most chiefly here).

The events that happened in 2020 were really just the last part of a long and ongoing problem with the way the power users were regarded, treated or interacted with. There were lots and lots and lots of problems with how the company "dealt" with the community, and there was a lot of tension to go around.

Then, the Monica thing happened and that only served to open up the flood gates. Think "Two Minutes Hate" but with a lot less 1984.

Also too, they're making moderators sign a legally binding document, which notably has a chilling effect on moderators under the age of 18. (Oh, that was a demographic of users who were interested in doing this, which could also cut down on the number of interested parties.) There was really no clear rationale as to why now moderators have to be bound by contract as opposed to what it was before, but maybe it's better.

Ultimately, I don't really trust the leadership team enough to feel that they're going to be taking the site in a direction that I could support, so I wouldn't want to put myself into a position where I would feel compelled to support and/or back them up in that capacity. What I've seen on how they've carried themselves over the last two years doesn't give me any indication that they're trending positively and that they're moving more towards a more positive environment, so I couldn't see myself being a diamond moderator that associates closely with them.

4
  • 9
    If I were to write an answer, it would look exactly like this, so I will just upvote and reiterate Ultimately, I don't really trust the leadership team enough to feel that they're going to be taking the site in a direction that I could support, so I wouldn't want to put myself into a position where I would feel compelled to support and/or back them up in that capacity.
    – Travis J
    Commented Nov 1, 2021 at 18:08
  • 1
    The funny thing is - this is precisely what dragged me back into modding MSE. I didn't trust the management of the time to take care of the site, and I apparently wasn't willing to let it burn Commented Nov 9, 2021 at 6:01
  • 2
    @JourneymanGeek: You have more dedication to the community than I, apparently. I've lived a life where I've gone out on a limb with dubious, limited or no support from a higher entity and I've always been burned by it. So, if nothing else, that's admirable.
    – Makoto
    Commented Nov 9, 2021 at 16:12
  • youtube.com/watch?v=5zDM8XakVpU I find this is a very useful attitude with higher powers. :D Commented Nov 9, 2021 at 17:04
11

Taking only your last sentence: I have never understood why a higher voter turnout, without any qualifications, is ipso facto desirable in any election, especially in the polis at large, but also in any other group, small, or smaller. At a minimum it should be qualified with "of interested voters" and, better, also with "of knowledgeable voters". Even better: "of voters with skin in the game" (for many elections, though not necessarily meaningless near-popularity contests like this one under discussion).

(I'm not suggesting any kind of test for any of these criteria - in all cases I would let the voter decide on his interest, knowledge, and skin-in-gamedness. But I certainly wouldn't push anyone to vote for anyone or anything at all: If you can't bother to vote: You aren't interested, you certainly don't have skin in the game, and you probably aren't knowledgeable either. And it's fine that you don't care, and it's probably better for the outcome too.)

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  • 14
    The problem is that the most important factor that effects someone's likelyhood to vote is their emotional investment, not their knowledge on the topic at hand. People with the most extreme views will always turn out to vote because of this and therefore declining voter numbers will often cede more power to these people. Not always the case of course but IMO in most cases it is more desirable to have more a representative voter base than a less representative one. Commented Oct 31, 2021 at 3:52
  • @JeromePaddick couldn't someone who is not emotionally invested be more easily manipulated by those who are highly emotionally invested, leading to giving those with extreme views even more sway? Commented Oct 31, 2021 at 16:09
  • 6
    I chose to abstain from voting in the last SO election because I wasn't familiar with any of the people running. I could have read every post and comment on the election page to try to reach a conclusion from that, but that would take a lot of time, and I trusted other users who spend more time on meta to pick someone I'd be ok with. Commented Oct 31, 2021 at 19:30
  • 3
    Yes, what Peter said. And consider this too: without in any way disparaging any of the volunteer hard-working moderators (or moderator-candidates): For many many many people who use SO (and the other SE sites) and who contribute both questions and answers (even if not many): Does it matter? How big a gap could there be between the best most-experienced current moderator and the worst of the moderator-candidates that would affect the site's effectiveness and my use of it in particular? I use SO a lot, yet I'm not interested in this, no skin in the game: I don't vote.
    – davidbak
    Commented Oct 31, 2021 at 20:38
  • 6
    "of voters with skin in the game" All voters, by definition, have "skin in the game". Even unregistered readers are affected by moderator decisions like deleting content or suspending someone from asking/answering questions.
    – TylerH
    Commented Nov 1, 2021 at 13:44
5

I'm going to be broadly less negative, but I'd say fundamentally, the 'core' communities have always been small and to a significant extent these have been neglected.

I've often joked that Stack Exchange has a social element in spite of itself. One finds that the folks who step up to be moderators are generally engaged in other ways, whether it's meta, chat or affiliated projects like smoke detector.

Broadly, for someone to spend time on moderation, formal or otherwise there needs to be a deeper involvement than just 'a place to ask questions'. One also finds that when things go wrong, the folks who're more emotionally invested also tend to be hurt more when the company falls short on their standard of care.

In the earlier days of the network, I think I stood (and lost!) on elections for Ask Ubuntu and Server Fault, because folks asked me to stand for various reasons. I had someone bug the moderators incumbent to when the next elections were to the point of annoyance. I guess part of it was communities were smaller, more rowdy and ironically more active.

I personally think it's a mistake to focus on one incident, or one person.

SE's growth focus has been on products: Careers, Documentation, and Teams. This isn't mutually exclusive to community building on the ground, but the approach the organisation's taken to it in the past has been "eh, the community isn't that important, and if our products take off all's good" ... Even to this day, there's a significant disconnect between a lot of the company's public communications, and the communities it fosters.

Which kinda brought us to this point. There's a good reason a good number of the highest (and lowest) voted questions in the company tag on MSE involve multiple crises in the past. Quite a few other communities have had similar issues in the past - times when things went south, best intentions or not, and folks left, or drifted away.

You don't find prospective moderators overnight. They're the folks who're already active in the community, and per site meta. Some stick around, some leave in a bang, and others lose interest. It would be simplistic to attribute one single factor or event. Community building, and maintenance is a process over time.

While individual incidents do contribute, and people remember them, it's also about healthy, engaged communities as a whole. It's telling that a significant number of moderators are active on chat (on SE or off), and/or in charcoal. If you want folks to be civic minded, and step up or vote, they've got to care and know they'll get the support they need to do what matters.

Historically SE has fallen short on this in many ways. I'll decline to go over all that again, but it's going to take time and a certain level of investment in time, effort and things of that nature to even begin to fix it.

I'd say, in a nutshell, folks are burnt out, depressed and apathetic. That's why less people wants to put in more emotional labour and time into 'formal' moderation.

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  • 2
    ...wow. It's like you took what I had posted and summed it up so much better than I could. You get it.
    – Makoto
    Commented Nov 9, 2021 at 18:40
  • 1
    Well, I wish I could wave a magic wand and fix it. or at least know where to start. Commented Nov 9, 2021 at 18:43
  • 2
    Some things just can't be fixed. Some wounds still run deep. Impressions run deep, and the silence in the void of that can be deafening. But once you accept that some things can't be fixed, one stops thinking about "repair" and more about "heal".
    – Makoto
    Commented Nov 9, 2021 at 18:50
  • 1
    I don't believe anything is unfixable. Its just a matter of the right skillset, the right tools, and the willingness to act. It might not be perfect but it'll run. Commented Nov 9, 2021 at 18:58
  • 3
    You do know how to fix it, though, don't you? You just lack the power to do so. I mean, I know how to fix it. If you're ever visited by a magic genie, don't waste your wishes without talking to me first.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Nov 10, 2021 at 0:36
  • Know? ehhh, I have no idea if what I think might work would - and its mainly a ton of legwork I suspect. As for power - well, not really in my hands. All I have is my voice, and a soapbox, and I make the most of that :D Commented Nov 11, 2021 at 9:16
2

Why would you want to be a moderator on a site owned by a company that has made so many terrible mistakes in the past and has yet to actually learn from them, never mind avoid repeating them (docs vs collectives)?

Why would you want to be a moderator on a site owned by a company that continues to fail to provide basic moderation tools that have been requested for years?

Why would you want to be a moderator on a site owned by a company that uses you as unpaid labour to do the things said company should be paying people to do?

Why would you want to be a moderator on a site owned by a company that treats you as less important than a new user?

Why would you want to be a moderator on a site owned by a company that has zero basic respect for you as a human being?

Conversely, why should we, as ordinary users, respect moderators when their roles are being eroded to enforcers of said company's will - including but not limited to outright censorship, via removing comments critical of said company?

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    Why would you want to log in, let alone post an answer, to a site that's obviously that horrible? Why would you blame (or even disrepect) the volunteers that spend their free time moderating the site for the poor choices of the company?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Nov 1, 2021 at 13:06
  • 13
    @Cerbrus By accepting the diamond and continuing to accept it, they are implicitly endorsing the actions of said company.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Nov 1, 2021 at 13:08
  • 30
    Not everything is as black and white as your avatar image, Ian.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Nov 1, 2021 at 13:09
  • 1
    I didn’t vote either way but it’s probably for the last sentence which doesn’t seem to have any relevance to the question asked. But since it’s there, I’d say respect them because it goes without saying they’re probably there protecting us from a shower of shit that’s coming from both sides without asking for too much
    – Sayse
    Commented Nov 1, 2021 at 18:32
  • 18
    "By accepting the diamond and continuing to accept it, they are implicitly endorsing the actions of said company." This is horribly, horribly wrong. I refuse for one moment to even accept that fiction. To the extent this is true, it is equally true that you, by continuing to hold a user account on this site and participate, especially to particulate on the Meta site, are implicitly endorsing the actions of the company. And I know that isn't true, so it isn't true of mods, either.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Nov 1, 2021 at 21:47
  • 17
    I have never once removed a comment critical of the company because I was pressured into doing so or because I felt like I had to do so. I've removed comments that I thought were unconscionably rude, but only because they were rudely posed/phrased, not because they were critical of the company. I've been critical of the company on countless instances, and defended them in others, where I felt like they happened to be making the right choices. Cerbrus is right when he says that not everything is black and white. I don't feel respected by the company, but I do by the community.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Nov 1, 2021 at 21:50
  • 1
    @CodyGray But there is a difference between being a regular user using the site at your own terms and being an unpaid volunteer actively doing work that would normally have to be done by paid staff. Basically the whole network would slowly but steadily crumble if not for unpaid mods and the product would lose lots of value. I recall this discussion Is Stack Exchange in violation of New York labor law, in using volunteer moderators?.
    – Lundin
    Commented Nov 2, 2021 at 7:58
  • I think Journeyman Geek has summer up that question pretty well, from a mod's perspective: "So essentially... hell no, and what are you trying to do?"
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Nov 2, 2021 at 8:05
  • 10
    That's a gross mischaracterization of a moderator's job. Moderators are not agents of the company any more than people who use the review queues, downvote, and/or vote to close posts are agents of the company. Yes, the site would lose a lot of value if it wasn't moderated, but it would also lose a lot of value if volunteers didn't spend their time answering questions. Are all of y'all due compensation, too? I should think "no". Even your rhetoric shows that you do not properly understand the role of moderators. Moderators do use the site on their own terms.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Nov 2, 2021 at 8:06
  • 1
    @Cerbrus I'm not sure about this answer, but I do know why OP would post it. Rubbernecking a trainwreck is always interesting.
    – Magisch
    Commented Nov 4, 2021 at 12:00
  • 2
    @CodyGray Okay so moderators don't get to sign a terms of service and they don't get fired against their will for supposedly breaking unwritten parts of a code of conduct? Because I was under the impression that moderators use the site on the company's terms (just like everyone else). The difference between mods and regular users is that you can't hire someone to write Q&A. Or well you can, but it will go the way all commercial encyclopaedias went after the introduction of the Internet. You can however hire moderators without affecting the quality of the Q&A content much.
    – Lundin
    Commented Nov 9, 2021 at 12:54
1

Corporate Stack Exchange drove away many curators in the 2019/2020 purge in favor of attracting more help vam^W^Wnew users. Shockingly there are now less people interested in curation.

If only somebody could've warned us!!1! Oh, wait...

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