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I'll start by saying that I don't know if my proposal is good or not, I'll expose my pro & cons arguments (this isn't a feature request, just a discussion).

Simple math (that you know already):

  • upvoting a question: +5 for OP
  • downvoting a question: -2 for OP

but

  • upvoting an answer: +10 for Answerer
  • downvoting an answer: -2 for Answerer

That doesn't seem very proportionate at first glance. The reputation points gain/loss between users disapproving and/or approving the post is different between questions and answers.

That seems pretty balanced for questions. The question is okay, someone upvotes it, someone sees an issue and downvotes, the asker still get reputation. Someone else sees an issue, downvotes, there is still 1 point left. A third user downvotes: now a question with a -2 score is costing the user 1 rep point. Good.

But for answers (as many of us know how easy it is to get a first upvote from a gullible user, or the OP, happy to see an answer), undoing the reputation gain, forcing the answerer to edit or delete their post, is much harder:

  • upvote: 10 points
  • downvote: 8 points
  • downvote: 6 points
  • downvote: 4 points
  • downvote: 2 points

The answer has a score of -3 but still gives reputation to the poster. And there are bad answers that luckily gathered 3 votes before someone notices that it's wrong. You make the count! Most people just give up downvoting in those cases.

Proposal

I'm proposing that downvoting an answer should cost 4 points to its poster instead of 2.

Pros:

  • Answerers are more compelled to delete their answers, because the score is negative after 3 downvotes.
  • The up/down vote ratio is the same as the one for questions.
  • You cannot (theorically) flag a wrong answer to put it in the review queue so it's difficult to be followed by a mob of downvoters for a wrong (not bad or LQ) answer, but downvotes have more power to coerce the poster to delete their answer.

Cons:

  • Why do this when power users can vote to delete the answer when the score is -1 or less? (Well, it's not so easy to reach 3 votes to delete)
  • Why do this when there's still a penalty for the badges? (if I'm running for gold badge, I'll delete posts that hurt my tag badge score without caring for reputation), so high reputation users running for badges would have deleted the answer anyway
  • This would reduce the reputation points of most users (but statistically the same for everyone, I personally NEVER keep answers with a negative score, even if it still gets me points).
  • The reputation count will have to be recomputed for all users unless the measure could be made non-retroactive, which would probably be better but more complex. (It has already probably been done when downvoting questions ceased to cost reputation, I dunno, wasn't there at the time).

I was surprised that noone proposed it already. I (of course) searched all over the internet (and beyond :)) and found nothing like this, so I'm waiting for your 0-point penalty meta upvotes & downvotes as well as your input.

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    Someone definitely did propose it before... and it was shot down.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 20:05
  • 90
    I would love to see the "penalty" be the same as the "reward". I hate that a sympathy up vote counters 5 down votes on a answer. Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 20:06
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    Loss aversion means this is a non-starter. The powers that be want people to continue contributing and any system imposed deterrents to contribution are extremely difficult to get implemented due to the fact that they run counter to the goal of getting more people contributing.
    – user4639281
    Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 20:08
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    @TinyGiant if contributing means posting crap, then it's not contributing. Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 20:10
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    @Nathan all of these requests are bound to accrue meta support (those who frequent meta would be the users who would "benefit" from this). That does not mean that they are popular with the community, but rather popular with the segment of the community that is concerned about the low penalty of answer downvotes.
    – user4639281
    Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 20:10
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    @NathanArthur: The lesson here is, regardless of how popular an idea or concept is, if it doesn't mesh with what Stack Overflow wants to do or the direction they think is best for the site, they're not going to do it.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 20:13
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    @Makoto I'm under the impression that modifying the site behaviour is 99% of the time a non-starter, because of the fear of breaking the delicate balance of the mechanics, and also because it must be difficult not to create bugs when changing such a complex machine. Let's not complain too loud, SO/SE network sites are 100 times better than all the crap LOL forums in the world. Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 20:17
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    @Jean-FrançoisFabre: If you can come up with strong and reasonable rationale as to why this decision would be in the best interest of the site, then you could see movement in that direction. Right now...I see an attempt to weaponize moderation tools. Worse, you're thinking of applying this retroactively...and that'd cause a problem.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 20:32
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    Meh, I disagree with the pros here. Users remove posts with negative votes because it usually is accompanied with an explanation of technical inaccuracy. This feature request is too short sighted. Long term posts do not collect downvoted answers, and when they creep in they tend to get deleted as a result of the higher views. Solving a problem with low view, low traffic, recently asked questions by potentially breaking the rest of the system is a non starter. Especially without any research shown aside from prose.
    – Travis J
    Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 20:32
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    Although I kind of like the idea, I fear that this would also increase the damage from those revenge downvotes we can't do much about.
    – E_net4
    Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 21:10
  • 4
    If you tagged a bug report as discussion, that doesn't make it a discussion. Just the same here. This is a feature-request, because you have included no research, nor have you included a platform to discuss the impact, implications, or facets of what changing the downvote penalty would incur. You flatly state 4. It is a feature-request. And stating that the reputation lost from a downvote is "just a setting" is downplaying a very serious aspect of the site.
    – Travis J
    Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 21:20
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    @NathanArthur "declined by SO" It was also proposed by Stack Overflow. Jeff was running the site/company day-to-day at the time.
    – jscs
    Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 23:57
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    @MichaelPotter I'm voting to close your comment as a duplicate of this discussion, this discussion, and this more recent discussion
    – user4639281
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 2:42
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    I re-read that ancient decline justification. 6 years ago it made good sense for there was a risk of repelling answerers because of rep losses. Nowadays risk of them repelling is still there but main reason seems to be proliferation of garbage. If '2017 version of this request is to be re-declined then justification would better take that new risk into account
    – gnat
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 9:05
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    This request seems to falsely assume that the reputation penality from receiving downvotes is the driver behind correcting incorrect answers. There’s no evidence supporting this, and I would personally say that the downvote itself is a much more important part of the process.
    – poke
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 10:34

5 Answers 5

-44

An alternative approach:

If an answer has more up votes than down votes, each down vote counts as a -10, until the number of down votes are more (or equal) than the number of up votes, in which case the current system with -2 applies.

This would mean that 1 confused up-voter does not weigh as much as 5 down-voters, which is the main problem with the current system.

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    Maybe we should add a rep penality for upvotes too, to avoid “confused upvoters”?!
    – poke
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 11:30
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    @poke By "confused upvoter" I mean a scenario where someone posts a factually incorrect answer. The first person who reads it is a newbie, who up votes. Then other users reads it and down vote. The next newbie who comes along is less likely to up-vote, because there will now be down votes and comments. This is a quite common scenario.
    – Lundin
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 11:32
  • sounds like a good idea, which would cover the problem I had in mind when I wrote my question. However it looks complicated to implement/avoid bugs or infinite questions about "how come that my rep is x it should be y...". Also, if I implemented this, I would implement the other way round: first downvote: -2, then corrective upvote: +2 instead of +10. Maybe there would be more corrective upvotes, and "pity" corrective upvotes wouldn't bring too much rep Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 12:01
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    @Jean-FrançoisFabre I think the site would have to re-calculate how much rep each vote should give as soon as a vote is cast. But indeed this might have the side effect of a lot of reputation changes that are hard for the user to understand.
    – Lundin
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 12:32
  • unless this could not be retroactive. But then "enter bugs and meta-questions" :) Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 12:33
  • Well I seem to be in the minority who likes this answer. I have accepted it because it reflects my opinion most. Tinygiant answer is also very good but too conservative for me. Anyway glad that everyone is mobilized around this subject. Hot meta post, cool. Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 21:17
  • This would only serve as a greater incentive for tactical downvoting on competing answers.
    – Travis J
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 22:10
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    Seriously, tactical downvoting? Who does that ? A few bozos. Never met one in 2200 answers. Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 22:49
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    @Jean-François Fabre: Lucky you.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Sep 7, 2017 at 6:54
  • @BoltClock seriously? there are still people enjoying that? any meta post you could direct me to? Commented Sep 7, 2017 at 7:20
59

The perfect answer to this question (in my opinion) was already posted to a similar proposal on Over Meta by Jeff Atwood (also the OP of the proposal this was posted as an answer to):

Having had a few months to think about this, I'm no longer sure it's a good idea, for two reasons.

  1. Downvotes were always essentially cosmetic, with an extremely minor effect on reputation. Despite this, received downvotes are taken quite seriously by users. Almost too seriously. If we raise them to -5 they are no longer cosmetic but can be wielded as cudgels on other users. This was never the intent of a downvote, so we would be twisting it into something ugly. Users are far, far more attached to their reputation scores than I ever could have predicted, and I believe more than doubling the weight of a downvote will cause a lot of new, additional angst in the community over the occasional received downvote -- to the point that only users who want to hurt other users will cast them. Downvotes go from being cosmetic and psychological to weapons of war.

  2. If we amplify the effect of a downvote, in all fairness, we must also amplify the cost to the casting voter as well. So what was -2 to the post, with -1 to the casting voter, will become -5/-2 or even -5/-3. The only reason we had downvotes cost -1 was to make people really think about using downvotes in moderation, only when appropriate. For such an extremely minor cost, users with 20k+ rep are still hesitant to cast downvotes for fear of losing reputation! Our goal is not to prevent people from casting downvotes, and it seems that given the current observed behavior (that is, very few people cast downvotes -- though a tiny select few cast a lot) we would be causing the majority of users to cast even fewer downvotes than they do now. This is, in my mind, a HUGE downside to this proposed change. We would be effectively nerfing downvotes into oblivion because they're now twice as "expensive" to cast.

The real problem I want to solve here is "shore, there is always gold". I am no longer convinced this is the right way to do it, but I am open to hearing ideas on that thread on other ways we could do it.

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    I still don't buy this. On point 1, questions are downvoted by the dozens with little care for whether the askers get stressed, and not just 1-rep askers whose rep scores are unaffected. I don't think people really care that much about whether their vote stresses someone out; what matters is the cost to the voter, in such forms as direct rep cost, internet arguments, and revenge votes. As for point 2, there is no need to amplify the downvote cost for "fairness". Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 1:38
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    @user On point one, you're making a sweeping generalization based on your view. I know for a fact that there are many users out there that simply do not downvote because of the perceived negative psychological impact they would be dishing out on the user. I know this because they have said this, whether it be in chat, in response to my comments on posts here on meta, or just in comments on posts in general.
    – user4639281
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 2:39
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    @user On point two, there is a need to increase cost if you increase effect. Tactical downvoting is already a thing, and if you make the downvote mean more without making it cost more, you risk discouraging the victims and encouraging the tactical downvoters.
    – user4639281
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 2:39
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    I'll rephrase my response to point 1, then. Looking at how many downvotes questions receive compared to answers, I don't believe perceived psychological impact is the primary motivator for the low downvote rate on answers, and I do not believe that increasing the rep penalty would make perceived psychological impact so great a motivator that only people who want to hurt people would downvote. Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 3:22
  • @TinyGiant agreed that the cost would need to increase - which drives up loss aversion as point 2 states. There may come a point however that the answer is deleted at which point you get your reputation back. I wonder what would happen when in case the answer is deleted, you get more back than you lost. Say - lose 2 points but gain 4 back. There is still loss aversion as you have a chance to not get them back at all, but it is still sort of an investment that can pay out which lowers the bar.
    – Gimby
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 11:58
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    " For such an extremely minor cost, users with 20k+ rep are still hesitant to cast downvotes for fear of losing reputation!" I'm usually very happy to downvote stuff :D Who cares about single-digit rep ;-)
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 15:15
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    @Cerbrus again, you and I are fine with it, that does not mean that there are no users out there that are not fine with it. The meta crowd is not representative of any group other than the group of users that frequent meta.
    – user4639281
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 16:53
  • @user2357112 questions are another story because askers ask primarily for their own gain. There's no way to interpret anything well-meant into a “gimme teh codez” post, so people won't hesitate to downvote it even – and perhaps particularly – if it's seen as actual punishment. But an answer that attempts to help, even if it does a horrible job, will by many be seen with pity more than contempt, so they might not hesitate to downvote the content but, because it's also linked to rep punishment, hesitate to downvote the actual post. Commented Sep 7, 2017 at 8:24
0
  • The focus of voting is to push great content to the top and to push bad content to the bottom but both do not have equal weight as can be understood by the fact that,

    The up-vote privilege comes first because that's what you should focus on: pushing great content to the top.

  • A LQ posting user's reputation is not the focus.

  • Further, the purpose of -2 penalty is to discourage someone from posting unhelpful content. If a user continues to contribute LQ posts, they eventually get Q or A banned, which completely bans the user from posting LQ content.

The current focus and implementation of voting seems fine to me.


Yes, users may make points with negatively voted answer, but so what? Let them. When users post unhelpful content, they inevitably get down-voted. An overall negatively scored answer doesn't bypass a good quality and highly up-voted answer, even if the answerer made some imaginary currency in the process.

And if you think that they think that they are successfully making some reputation at a Q&A website, understand that being able to increase an imaginary number, without improving their own knowledge and the quality of knowledge, is a futile "success" in the long run.


UPDATE:

Because I said that I'm ok with current voting process, readers have concluded that I am ok with LQ content on SO. It is not true. I'm not supporting LQ content on SO, rather I'm saying that LQ content is currently being handled on SO just fine. The right way to improve the quality of content posted on SO is to educate the LQ posters, while keeping the Qs and As ban in place, which kick in when LQ material is posted by someone too frequently.

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    @displayName You personally may not have a problem with lots of people posting low quality content, but some of us do have a problem with people providing low quality content, and don't want them to continue repeating that same bad behavior or refraining from rectifying their mistakes.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 17:43
  • 1
    @Servy: I do have problem with low quality content and my focus is always on the useful content. I also feel that trying to control the behavior of other users can only be done to limited extents when trying to keep the community open. Best is to educate the low quality content posters. Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 17:49
  • @displayName If you have a problem with low quality content then why is your response to people posting low quality content to say, "Yeah, but so what? Let them." You very clearly said you don't have a problem with it, and that you see no need to either discourage it from being posted or to incentivise its improvement/removal.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 17:53
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    @Servy: "Yeah, but so what?" is in regards with OP's concern that some users make rep even after posting low quality stuff. In regards to the problem that I have with LQ posters, I feel the right way is their education. Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 17:55
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    @displayName And you think rewarding people for posting bad content teaches them to stop posting more bad content, and that having them actually be penalized (very minimally) for posting bad content is problematic because...you haven't actually stated why, actually, you have a problem with that, only that you don't care at all that people are rewarded for bad behavior.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 17:59
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    @Servy: I don't think any such thing. These are all unwarranted conclusions drawn in a manner that because I don't say A you conclude that I say B. A user who posts LQ stuff frequently, gets banned and I don't have any objection with that. Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 18:07
  • @displayName You said specifically in your answer that you don't' care at all if people continue to post bad content and get rewarded for doing so. If you actually have a problem with people posting bad content, and if you actually have a problem with people being rewarded for posting bad content, then don't say the exact opposite.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 18:08
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    @Servy: LQ content may get rewarded with points and frequent LQ posts will get rewarded with posting ban. I don't have any problem with either. Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 18:10
-11

I'm bothered by the idea that we're trying to force people to remove content or, worse, not participate at all, based on the influence of a small number of people. I get it, you want better answers, better participation, better quality, but when has that ever happened due to punishment?

Worse, some answers have relevant insight despite being lower quality answers. The loss of that commentary, no matter how insignificant the percentage of participation, is in my mind a high cost for trying to enforce "better behavior."

Therefore, I ask in return, is there an actual problem we're trying to solve with this, or are we simply discussing the matter based on the principle of "it doesn't seem completely fair?"

My vote: I'd rather suffer a higher percentage of lower quality answers to encourage greater participation knowing that some will become quality participants on the site, than to discourage participation by quickly punishing lower quality answers and potentially lose those who learn to be better.

And, on a side note, I agree completely with Jeff Atwood's insight. Vindictive people would downvote just to get their answer higher on the list. I've been the victim of that as the rules stand. Adding greater weight against the answerer would only make the situation imeasurably worse.

My comment tree has exposed an interesting issue. What, really, is the problem we're trying to address? Objectively, are there people with consistently downvoted answers gaining reputation privileges such that we have correspondingly low quality behavior in, for example, the review queues? If we do, then there is an argument for increasing the answerer's downvote penalty.

But that isn't the problem my commenters are raising. They're complaining that the perceived imbalance is "unfair." Unfair to whom, unless there is a problem like the one I just mentioned? Who cares unless there is an issue? Are we so petty, do we have such low self-esteem, are we so snobbish, that we're willing to remove reputation points without a problem in evidence? Because the consequence will be a loss of participation.

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    "Vindictive people would downvote just to get their answer higher on the list". I've posted 2200 answers, and I think I got tactical-downvoted once or twice. Not even sure it happened at all. Also, if a question has 55 answers, 45 of which are low quality, it just adds pollution to the site and makes SO look like any stupid "try this, try that" LOL forum. Contributing is ok, but not with crap. Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 20:40
  • also, tactical downvote can backfire: 1) other users see the downvote for a perfectly ok answer 2) they comment / answerer comments (why the downvote/dunno, looks ok) 3) users make up the downvote by an upvote because they think it's unfair and possibly 4) everyone figures out that the other answerer downvoted and he doesn't get any upvotes for that... (coming from a proud owner of the "sportmanship" badge). Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 20:42
  • Is elitism what this site is about? Then the problem is better solved by setting a minimum reputation level before answers can be submitted. Like many people, I've used SO for years and it never once crossed my mind that there was too much "crap." I've even found answers amongst what you'd likely call "crap." There must be a better reason than website aesthetics to do this or we're acting against the site's purpose.
    – JBH
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 20:43
  • having higher reputation clearly isn't a good indication of being able to present high quality answers.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 20:44
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    not elitism: everyone can answer. In real life (ex: at work), you can answer, but if you're incompetent, people will also let you know. How can you know which answers I would call "crap". I'm not elitist. Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 20:44
  • Based on the "Shore, there is always gold" answer, you are certainly correct, but heavy-handedness is more likely to drive users away than it is to improve users. Otherwise, corporal punishment would still be the norm.
    – JBH
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 20:45
  • @Jean-FrançoisFabre, that's fair, I do not actually know how you stand on this issue. But, reducing the number of people needed to make answering a question valueless in the hopes that it will teach the answerer to do a better job is elitist ... especially when the majority of downvoters are unlikely to be doing it for the humanist reason of teching someone to do it better. That's what bothers me about the answer, it gives too much power to too few few people for highly questionable reasons.
    – JBH
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 20:48
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    downvotes aren't for punishment, they're for rating quality, just like upvotes. However, to encourage users to provide high quality content, we give them rep when they get upvoted. The opposite action is a downvote when the content isn't high quality. it only makes sense that the opposite should occur, and the user lose rep. In the current setup, that opposite is offset several times over by a single upvote, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, and agree that increasing it could have a negative overall effect.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 20:48
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    @KevinB, the answerer does lose rep. What this discussion is proposing is that he/she should lose more rep. Why? because, we hope, it will lead to the answerer providing higher quality answers. Is there evidence of that? There isn't in "real life." On the other hand, I suspect there's clear evidence of downvotes leading to lost participation. It's like the author of a textbook complaining that the 6-year-olds who use it don't give good enough answers and should be cracked with a ruler to give better ones.
    – JBH
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 20:52
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    The argument is more along the lines of, why should you have a very large positive gain on an answer that received, say, 10 upvotes and 10 downvotes? Why should the net rep change be closer to 50 and not 0?
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 21:14
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    And my argument is, why should anyone care unless there are a large number of people with consistently downvoted answers who are gaining reputation privileges such that problems are occuring (e.g., in the review queues)? What is the actual problem, other than a philisophical discussion of what "fair" means?
    – JBH
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 21:16
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    @JBH You personally may be more interested in attracting bad content than good content, and that's fine, some people aren't interested in good content, and to each their own, but SO was built on the premise of being a place to find quality answers to quality questions, not a place where low quality answers are posted to low quality questions because people were too afraid of actually telling someone that they posted bad content out of fear that they'd stop posting more of it.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 22:10
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    @Servy, that attitude is deplorable. It's nothing more than, "we don't want beginners, learners, students, or foreigners, we only want people who speak the Queen's English and learned to program at someone else's expense." If that's all SO is worth, then it's worth nothing. People come here to find answers. Heaven help us that some don't speak English as a first language, or picked up their first programming book yesterday. I'm not looking to fill the world with bad content. I'm looking to give the world a chance to learn.
    – JBH
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 22:56
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    People continuously post poor quality answers on duplicates of duplicates of duplicates, because they know it's easy rep. I'm talking 50k+ users answering duplicates of the most popular questions in their tag of choice. This isn't out of the kindness of their hearts. When I see answers like that, I downvote them after closing the question. Imo, that downvote can have a larger impact on the rep they gained, than it does now.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 7, 2017 at 6:38
  • 2
    @JBH It means none of those things. Beginners, learners, students, and foreigners are more than capable of asking great questions. They do so constantly. Likewise, experts in their field who speak fluent English regularly ask terrible questions. Accusing people who are interested in quality questions, rather than low quality questions, of being racist, when that has nothing to do with question quality, is simply deplorable. It is you who are asserting that foreigners and students are incapable of asking acceptable questions, so it is you who are treating them unacceptably.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 7, 2017 at 13:14
-17

Against. -2 for answer downvote is fine.

Bad questions are bad in that they take up space/attention from everybody, from people who'd like to spend their time on better stuff. That warrants making a real negative rep score easy to get, both to encourage deleted-by-owner and better asking in the future.

Bad answers are, in the worst case, bad in that they purport misinformation, but more typically they just fail to help the OP. In the former case, the most important thing is to add a warning sign for people reading the answer, hopefully in form of a comment but also a negative vote balance. The side-effect of punishing the answerer is less necessary – often this will actually feel a bit unfair, because they did after all attempt to help. That also means that big negative score for a downvote might discourage people from pushing that button even when it's in order: “-1 doesn't hurt me, but that poor soul only has 135 rep, I don't want to inflict -4 on them...”.
Sure, bad answers also take up space and time, but mostly the question-OP's time, and they did of course bring it all up in the first place and thus shouldn't complain. Furthermore, even a bad answer may actually help the OP because it gives rise to some new thoughts. Heck, even a wrong answer (with neg-votes / comments) can be helpful, namely show up a possibly-common misconception! Thus I also don't think we should that strongly encourage deleting answers.

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    Providing misinformation is much, much worse than just taking up space, and deserves a worse penalty. Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 22:03
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    Yup, pretty much everything I'd have written. Most important: the vote score is what matters most to the community, and while maybe it'd be better to encourage posters to delete bad posts (especially since all too often, bad posts still get a number of up-votes), there's too much revenge voting, and higher-impact down-votes would tend to discourage contributions overall, because contributions just provide a bigger attack surface for revenge downvoters. Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 22:03
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    @user2357112 wantonly providing misinformation is completely unacceptable, but that's beyond votes – it's flagging domain. Inadvertently providing misinformation is bad, but nothing you can really punish. Everybody makes mistakes sometimes, that's why peer review is always needed. And again, the most important thing about that peer review is to point out wrong information, which works best if downvoting is not associated with any strong hurting-connotation. Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 22:33
  • Most of the "fail to help the OP" cases I see fall into one of two categories. Either the answer is wrong, in which case we shouldn't be encouraging the poster to post more wrong answers even if they're trying to help, or the question was missing vital information and the answer was right for the question as it was when the answer was posted, in which case the answer shouldn't be downvoted at all. Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 22:37
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    Inadvertently providing misinformation is no better than inadvertently posting bad questions. People who do either don't usually intend to do it. It's hard to argue that posting bad questions deserves punishment, but posting bad answers, which does far more harm, doesn't deserve punishment. If we want to encourage better asking from bad askers, shouldn't we encourage better answering from bad answerers? Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 22:44
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    @user2357112 well, the point is that posting bad answers does not do more harm, as long as there are enough other answers and reviewers to comment / balance the scores. A wrong answer with -2 score beneath a couple of decent answers won't mislead anybody. And the less these potential answers and reviewers are busy with bad questions, there more likely that is. IOW, we should generally try to keep the answers/question ratio high, and that's facilitated by generally scoring answers more positively than questions. Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 22:58
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    An accepted wrong answer will never get buried, and a buried but rep-positive wrong answer will encourage continued bad answering habits, possibly leading to wrong answers that accumulate too many upvotes to bury before someone who knows their stuff comes along. We do not need wrong answers to demonstrate misconceptions; right answers can do that, with an explanation of the misconception in the answer itself instead of in an argument in the comments that might get nuked by the mods. Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 23:10
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    Accepted wrong answers are horrible, but again that's really the asker's fault (and fortunately very uncommon, at least in the tags I'm active in). Wrong answers that accumulate early upvotes are a bigger problem, but what are you going for here? Unless you punish downvotes with >10 points, an answer that can't be pushed below 0 will also always have a net positive score. So the best weapon remains to not discourage downvoting. And, repeating myself, that means we should not associate it with much score, because most people are friendly and hesitate from actively causing anybody harm. Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 23:23
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    Furthermore, for an answer that's inadvertently wrong but well-phrased (which tend to be the ones that get upvoted) there's also a good chance that upon comment, the poster will amend it, or agree with an edit by somebody else. And then it's no problem anymore that the originally-wrong answer remains on top! Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 23:35
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    @user2357112 I don't know where you got that asking bad questions is a punishable offense. The system does not "punish" users. Users who have a history of posting questions that are not received well by the community will be rate limited or prevented from asking further questions, but this is not about the user, it is about the content they provide. This is the same with answers, users who have a history of posting answers that are not well received by the community may also be rate limited and prevented from providing further answers, but again this is not about the user, rather the content.
    – user4639281
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 0:39
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    @leftaroundabout: What I was going for is that bad answers do cause harm in common cases. Ideally, increasing the weight of downvotes would reduce the incentives for the behavior patterns that lead to wrong answers, reducing the number of cases where they end up in a position where they can't be buried. Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 1:09
  • @TinyGiant well, that's the closest you get to “punishment” in a system that's all about rubber points... of course the word is a bit out of place. But there's a difference between questions and answers in regard to “about the use vs. about the content”, namely, questions tend to be about a concrete problem the OP has, i.e. this starts out as a personal thing, whereas answers are always about the given problem / about the content itself. Hence a bad answer is self-punishment by itself (“what did I waste my time for writing this?”), whereas bad questions can still reward the OP with answers. Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 9:01

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