50

From my experience with the site, with trying to help user moderation, and with the recent mentorship program; often, low-quality and off-topic content comes from confused users who do not understand how to properly use the service provided here.

There are many categories of confusion, but there are several glaringly large ones. These categories each have their own pitfall.

  • The user was just looking for terminology to help them do more research
    Lacking research and looking like you want someone to either link you to a tutorial or worse write one never goes over well.
  • The user was just curious about how their progress was looking
    Code dumps with a single sentence or two really have no direction and look far too broad, too unclear, and fall into a couple of off topic reasons as well.
  • The user got stuck on something basic and thought they could ask a quick question
    At least asking a basic question can sometimes serve as a duplicate signpost, although often enough the general quality of the new duplicate is so low or so similar to existing content that it does not warrant remaining.

Users often do not fully comprehend that these 3 bullet points are some of the lowest hanging fruit at Stack Overflow. This is the primary source of friction in my opinion. Odd, since it is solved, technically.

Rules in place, the system is fine tuned to handle these types of scenarios. The community dispatches these like clockwork. Both the automated system and the human system work like an engine firing on all cylinders, burning these types of questions day in and day out.

The result though, after creating such an efficient system for dispatching this type of content, perhaps came at the cost of the user attached to the content. At Stack Overflow, experienced users understand the benefits of disconnecting users from content. However, new users often do not understand that there should be this distance between their question about terminology and them as a person. They perceive the removal as a slight.

So I present this as my observation of the problem Stack Overflow has with being welcoming that so many topics are currently covering. I like the intention and resolve the community has right now to solve this issue, and hope that we can find a way to that solution.

I am just not sure what that solution looks like, and so my question is simple: what can we do to make the users generating this content not feel like they are the target of this highly efficient machine?

Does this mean more hand-holding while the machine works? "It's okay, it will all be over soon, and then you can have a new question. Here is what went wrong: a, b, c."

Does this mean making the machine even faster? Like a Band-Aid; one quick rip, easier closure, less exposure. If this content is truly considered off topic, and it would ideally be prevented, then is removing it even faster a better idea?

Explaining what happens while it is happening and expediting the process serve towards reducing friction between user and content removal. However, I am not sure either way is ideal, and to be honest I feel like we have put a lot of work in there already.

What can be done with the existing process to limit the amount of friction between confused users and the removal of their off-topic content?

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  • 53
    My opinion is that the problem is that new users are not being adequately prepared for posting. "This is a Q&A site, I had a question... why did you monsters close/downvote it?" If they come in only expecting people to give them answers, it's not going to be fun. We need to (somehow) improve the joining process so that users have a better chance of grasping the concept of a high-quality library of Q&As before they ask the first question. Yes, I know the company is sensitive about changing the joining process, but I'm pretty sure that's where part of the solution has to be. Commented May 1, 2018 at 2:45
  • 1
    I wish there were a way to mega-size the mentorship, or maybe try that The Good, The Bad & The Ugly idea. Commented May 1, 2018 at 2:53
  • 2
    @AndrewMyers - Working in the mentorship program, the vast majority of users with really low quality questions did not intend to bypass rules and regulations. They just thought it was okay. So, I can understand how the prepared approach could be a good way forward.
    – Travis J
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 4:36
  • 1
    @AndrewMyers - That said, sometimes even when prepared the content will need to be removed, and community users will need to remove it. If that process is unchanged, then I feel like those well prepared users will still feel like they are being targeted by a system. In reality, the system is just trying to produce high quality content, but the process can be very jarring to get used to.
    – Travis J
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 4:36
  • 3
    This question is a nice thematic extension of Can we make it more obvious to new users that downvotes are not insults and in fact can help them help themselves? (which, as its title suggests, is specific to downvotes)
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 6:10
  • 1
    I'm not sure that you can. Turning away new accounts with 'We don't do basic syntax questions - there are plenty oher sites for that', or whatever, would just change the blogs etc. from 'unwelcome to newbies' to actually 'shut to new users, together with sceenshots, claims of elitism etc. It does not matter that elitism and avoiding bottim-feeding are not the same, and, as has been shown over the lasy few days, once the critics have an imaginary bit between theri teeth, they will run with it until they are dead., No, I don't have a better idea:( Commented May 1, 2018 at 7:01
  • I hate being the guy/gal who critics someting without an alternative soution, but ATM, I got nothing:( Commented May 1, 2018 at 7:03
  • 33
    SO was designed as a cross between Wikipedia, Reddit, forums and blogs. It would seem to me that it is primarily presented and perceived as a forum/Reddit, while the rules are really more akin to Wikipedia. There's a disconnect between the presentation and the behaviour.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 7:30
  • 12
    You have framed the issue very well. @deceze has pointed out why it is an important issue: there is an overarching source of tension inscribed in the very fabric of what SO is, so we have no choice but to deal with it. I would add that it is not just about presentation: after all, we have a reputation score and a strong notion of post autorship, two very user-centric features that would be utterly out of place at, say, Wikipedia.
    – duplode
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 7:38
  • 3
    I've been away for a few years and came back to update my CV - then got hooked answering questions again. Surprised and encouraged by the proportion of questions being asked by people with very low rep, often first question and a bit horrified by the way they're treated, tbh. I wonder if we might be better re-framing SO - it's not the same world as it was when we started a decade ago. We now have a huge corpus of great questions and answers. We need to find ways to let beginners come in, ask their (probably "bad" question), get the help they need and encourage them further into computing.
    – brabster
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 8:17
  • 1
    I disagree with the conclusions. When designing a system, it should be intuitive, you can't blame the users. A simple context router (instead of just downvoting as a form of distressing feedback) would land at several different points - you didn't ask a question, not enough background, concept (which then could be answered), opinion (which then could be answered), etc. Also, it's too simple to assume that SO should only handle the 'next step' in the user's path. Part of technology is knowing the next step, as well as the end destination. SO is missing the end destination discussions.
    – Joe
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 5:10
  • @Joe - Which conclusions? You mean my two "perhaps this would work" ideas which I also go on to say, "these probably wouldn't work"? This post was meant as a thought experiment, and for the most part I tried to keep it neutral, although the main premise is that the conflict is at the point when content needs to be removed, and the user needs to be informed. Perhaps you could expand a little on your comment, such as which aspect of design SO lacks, what the entire "path" would conceptually look like, and what "end destination discussions" means?
    – Travis J
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 5:33
  • @TravisJ - "low-quality and off-topic content comes from confused users" in that phrase, the conclusion is that it's from confused users. That is correct imo. The following 'who do not understand how to properly use the service provided here.' is where I think SO breaks down in general. Yes - great thought experiment, don't let my distressing feedback take you off your game. This is a great path here. However, does it really need to be removed? I think it needs to be filtered and routed. I think you are struggling with a sanctity issue when you should be managing a complexity issue instead.
    – Joe
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 6:10
  • I think I need more space, would you want your design question answered in a different post, or inline here?
    – Joe
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 6:11
  • 1
    Maybe rebrand stack oveflow as a good questions and answers site? Commented Jun 15, 2018 at 14:29

4 Answers 4

10

All new users get to see this page before they can ask their first question. They will need to click the checkbox and "proceed" at the bottom.

The idea is a good one, but the page provides little no actual information; for the most part it only links to various help pages.

The information that it does provide is different from actual practice. For example "If you ask a vague question, you’ll get a vague answer" is not what will happena t all. If you ask a vague question, you will get downvotes and your question will be closed as "Unclear what you're asking".

My proposal would be to improve that page to provide a better introduction to Stack Overflow. Some suggestions might be:

  • Search can be removed; it's already integrated in https://stackoverflow.com/questions/ask.
  • Create a short and concisely phrased list of the most common types of question to avoid (it doesn't need to be a comprehensive list).
  • Clearly state the meaning of downvotes and putting questions on hold.
4

This is really an excellent question, and I really like the environment that has allowed this question to exist. I would ask the OP to consider that while I feel the observances are correct, in almost every regard, I feel the conclusion is incorrect for the following reasons:

"low-quality and off-topic content comes from confused users"

I agree with this - maybe not in the way you are expecting. A system was setup, called stack overflow. It had a certain intention and a method or system of work. People are coming in and using the system in ways that are not intended. These are not confused users imo - these are users with different needs that what the intention of SO provides. I agree with this in terms of the intention of a sanctity service that SO provides.

'who do not understand how to properly use the service provided here.'

This is the conclusion I have an issue with. While I agree better user understanding (as mentioned I think an open ended invitation to question anything is sort of asking for it) is important, and would make the sanctimonious intention of SO fulfilled, I suspect in most cases that even if users 'understood' SO for it's intention, they would still have the same issue, and the same need to use some tool like SO to increase their understanding in the shortest time possible for more architecture and best practices questions.

What can be done with the existing process to limit the amount of friction between confused users and the removal of their off-topic content?

Don't remove it because it doesn't fit the sanctity of your intention, re-route it to a path that can accommodate it. I think you are struggling with a sanctity issue when you should be managing a complexity issue instead. As you mention, you have a wide range of topics, and it's pretty impressive. Why is it so different to accommodate a wide range of user goals, experience level, and emotional capacity? Now if the answer to that question is 'our mission is to focus on the help aspect as opposed to the teaching aspect' then that's fine - but then you have to change your UI to reflect that - currently I see the following:

1. What's your programming question? Be specific.

This is setting up the user to fail. If I come in and say 'I'm developing this angular app and I want to know if material design is the best markup path to make sure I can support multiple platforms easily' that's a specific enough question that someone would charge $100 an hour to answer. However, that question would get downvoted, but the question is still technically valid and specific as requested. Your goal isn't to reduce friction by instructing your users, you need to channel your users so that they are in the right mindset for your intention. I would replace that 'Be specific' with some indication of the intention of the tool. Oddly 'be specific' is the most vague request to me.

2. "Some of your past questions have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from asking any more."

This is the problem with downvoting. Some others on this thread refer to downvoting as 'quality control', but it is far from that. When a user comes in, giving a specific scenario as requested, but it's too architectural for SO, they get downvoted. This doesn't instruct the user. Instead of having a set of lawyer like rules, why not embrace the technology you support and instead make the downvoters click a selection of why the question is problematic? Is having a click for 'Not in the form of a question' or 'This is an opinion which is subject to change over time' really that hard to implement? Downvoting gives people a false sense that they are giving distressing feedback, and the user will 'study' to figure out what they 'should' have done. It doesn't work this way - it's just confusing, especially when the only guidance when asking the question is 'be specific'.

I'm not sure if I'm articulating this correctly. However, the problem of friction I believe is solved by understanding the reason for your tool. To me, it's a sanctimonious tool that enables solutions of very quick Q&A, especially where a user is 'stuck' and has knowledge of what 'should' happen. Change the UI for the question, and remove downvoting, but require feedback in some form to the user so they become educated during their mistakes.

That being said, I think you are missing a great opportunity in 'removing' questions that don't fit the original intention of stack overflow. However, I can totally understand that. It's a large undertaking.

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  • Instead of having a set of lawyer like rules, why not embrace the technology you support and instead make the downvoters click a selection of why the question is problematic? that's what closing is for. Any user can flag to close and users above a certain reputation (I forget how much) can vote to close; they have to choose a specific reason for the closing. 5 votes close the question. An architectural question like the one you describe should just be closed, not necessarily downvoted.
    – Pekka
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 7:17
  • I like most of the sentiment here, but honestly I don't think removing downvotes will help. When users view content they think is useless, they will downvote it, or they will want some tool to mark it as such. That doesn't mean the definition of useful cannot be changed, which I also glean from your answer here, and I think changing that definition would lead to better results than simply removing a powerful tool that is in my opinion proven to work. Moreover, allowing the users to better use the exchange as it was intended to would also yield better results.
    – Travis J
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 7:18
  • Overall, in my point of view, there are only 3 things we can do: change the definition of useful (close reasons), change the process of removal, or change the process of content creation.
    – Travis J
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 7:18
  • 4
    I don't think what you're suggesting here - trying to channel users into the right mindset - is wrong; many things have been tried in that regard. It's just that for a certain set of users it's just not realistic. Not because they're stupid, but because they're at a different point on their journey. You need a certain degree of vocabulary and self-confidence to ask a successful question on SO and there's no way we can make users achieve those any faster.
    – Pekka
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 7:19
  • @TravisJ, I like most of the sentiment here, but honestly I don't think removing downvotes will help. Instead of removing downvotes, why not just hide them? The problem isn't the downvotes, which serve a useful purpose, it's their perception.
    – jpp
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 8:08
  • @jpp - I am on the fence about the hiding them idea, although I will say that if we are going to hide them, hiding them with a ! is a really good idea. Perhaps we just need to be louder about existing close votes, and who has cast them since they carry actual feedback. Showing a downvote's reason when cast (instead of just Close(1)) would be very similar to what would be inside of an anonymous downvote reason.
    – Travis J
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 8:16
  • 1
    @Pekka웃 I feel you guys are a little boxed in by the way the tool works, and it shows up in verbage. For instance, when you say 'close', what is really happening is 'exile'. I think you guys need to decide the mission statement of your business - it's not clear to me - are you really becoming a Q&A database, or are you going to focus on a subset of Q (helping) and maybe let someone else do the remaining Q (teaching/feedback/opinion)?
    – Joe
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 14:33
  • @TravisJ I think there is a disconnect by when I'm critical of downvoting. it's the lack of clarity in the experience of downvoting. there needs to be a discussion of what the purpose and experience of downvoting is. Is it guidance? Is it punishment? Is it exile? Is it communication? What I'm seeing with downvoting as it currently is designed is that it is as ambiguous as the original question - it can be used and interpreted many different ways. That doesn't make sense to me - whatever the decision, downvoting should have a minimal interpretation and should have informative feedback.
    – Joe
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 14:40
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    @Joe that's a gross misreading of that question though. It's not the individual that's being labeled "hopeless" there; it's the code they're presenting. Which makes their situation one requiring custom-tailored tutoring, and thus somewhat hopeless for SO. There's nothing wrong with that; I do tutoring like that all the time (including on SO; I've authored 30,000 comments over the years and a decent chunk is providing very customized help.) The issue is that's not a good fit for how Stack Overflow's model currently works (cont'd)
    – Pekka
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 15:41
  • 1
    And while I agree the tone on the site needs to get better and snarky scolding is unacceptable, we should think long and hard before changing that basic, hyper-narrow model. Not because that's what us old farts here on Meta like and are used to but because it provides results every day. Right now, Stack Overflow is still managing to provide a valuable service to the world, around the planet by the way. If people in developing countries can work their way out of poverty through IT then it's a sure bet the knowledge present on SO played a role in that.
    – Pekka
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 15:42
  • 1
    I'm seeing a lot of value in the proposition to create a sister site with a slightly different model for tutoring/mentoring, or partnering up with a community that has already managed to work that out. That sounds a lot better to me than fiddling with the fundamentals of how Stack Overflow works.
    – Pekka
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 15:44
  • 1
    I agree on the sister site - I think that's a better term than my routing reference.
    – Joe
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 18:43
  • 1
    Yes, SO is valuable around the world. As an experienced tech person, I've come to accept all my work as layers of sediment, we need to move faster than everyone else.
    – Joe
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 18:44
  • 1
    @Joe The UI currently indicates 'come world, bring us your questions' which is far from reality. absolutely! That is a MAJOR problem. The image SO communicates to new users (because it doesn't want to turn people away) is completely different than what expects them, and the predictable result is too often tears (figurative or literal).
    – Pekka
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 19:04
  • 1
    @Pekka웃 yeah, I think we're on the same page. I'm concerned that if only the input is constrained, without addressing the binary negative feedback, the 'tech tribalism' will just get worse.
    – Joe
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 2:39
-28

What can be done with the existing process to limit the amount of friction between confused users and the removal of their off-topic content?

The friction happens when new users receive comments they don't like, and downvotes on their questions (which no one likes, I'm talking about downvotes).

I have radical proposal, in two parts:

  1. disable comments on all questions altogether. Do not allow anyone to ask for clarification, let each question stand on its own. Allow commenting on answers only.

If a significant part of users perceive comments asking for clarification or improvement of their question as hostility, lets end this. Users who could improve their questions if asked will be left without any guidance, but it could be solved by some other means (I've seen mentoring mentioned somewhere), but anyway, if that's the price for being welcoming to everyone so be it.

  1. disable downvoting on a question until it gets at least one answer.

The end result for new users: no comments, no downvotes, bad questions (that did not get an answer) are automatically deleted after a while.

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    "disable downvoting on a question until it gets at least one answer" - Downvoting is used to signal to other users questions which have problems, by pushing a question down / off the front page. Without this finding pearls will be even more difficult.
    – jpp
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 22:02
  • @jpp more difficult, but not much more difficult. I don't know about high-traffic tags, but in the tag I'm currently interested in it's already as bad as it could be - no "pearls" at all for several days straight.
    – artem
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 22:16
  • I like the core sentiment that users get thrown off by downvotes on their questions. I just prefer not showing them to new users altogether (see 1, 2, 3).
    – jpp
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 22:21
  • 1
    Echoing @jpp I like the core sentiment of disabling comments on questions, but realistically I think it will need to be replaced in some form by something more flexible and reactive than the mentoring system suggested elsehwere.
    – joran
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 22:24
  • 4
    This is funny in a "modest proposal" sort of way, but the more I think about it, the more I like it. If the problems are rooted in wordless interpersonal interactions (down- and close votes), let's be even more impersonal. Commented May 2, 2018 at 0:18
  • I'm strongly against proposal #1, for the reasons presented in this answer, that I wrote to address a similar (but less radical) feature request. In brief, this change would take away question comments from the users who are able to achieve something through them (that is, the ones who post useful comments, and the ones that make good use of useful comments). I'd say that amounts to optimising for sand, not pearls.
    – duplode
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 1:26
  • Yes it's optimized for frictionless flow of sand through the system. I'm convinced that comments is the wrong tool for separating "sand" from "interesting questions".
    – artem
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 1:31
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    @artem A big part of the problem, however, is that it is precisely the interesting questions that more often benefit from comments that don't have anything to do with getting the OP to improve their post, and therefore are outside the scope of the ongoing discussion.
    – duplode
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 1:39
  • @duplode Oh, in this case I believe it still could be done with a bit of extra effort. If the question is really interesting, but is missing some crucial detail, you could give an answer which attempts to guess the detail, or conditionally structured answer like "if it's X you do this, otherwise do that" and the discussion can continue in the comments to the answer.
    – artem
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 1:52
  • @artem This means posting non-answers as answers, which would be a very tough side effect to deal with. Question comments provide the breathing room needed for that to be unnecessary.
    – duplode
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 2:01
  • @duplode my interpretation of "non-answer" is more lenient, I think that incomplete answer is still an answer.
    – artem
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 2:06
-31

I think part of the problem might be assuming that every question should contribute to the corpus.

If we assumed that a question has been asked only to help the person asking, could we switch round from "demoting" bad content (downvotes, closing, putting on hold) to "promoting" good content (I dunno, "great question")? Maybe questions need to upvoted a few times before they are available in search and indexed by Google etc., something like that?

I'm not sure exactly how it would work but I think a shift in perspective like this may be part of a solution.

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    Is it fair to summarise that as "get rid of the downvote button"? If so, that would remove a valuable quality control tool. Also, many questions don't see any upvotes ever, since they simply sink in the mass. – However, not being able to visibly downvote a question below 0 might be a start. Or anything below 0 is just labelled as "this question needs improvement" or such.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 8:48
  • That'd be part of it - I remember up/down votes being a point of some debate back in the day. Hiding from posters might be a good start, takes some of the sting out of the drive-by "-1 you suck for reasons I can't even be bothered to tell you about"! (cont)
    – brabster
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 8:54
  • But I'm thinking a bit more generally... so duplicates. Most of the time they're not duplicates imho - it's someone asking something way too specific to be useful for anyone else and the duplicate is the general answer. No good unless the OP has the knowledge to link the two together. So switch the duplicate thing around, instead of being a visible negative for the "duplicate" it's a positive for the question that provides the general answer.
    – brabster
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 8:56
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    "every question should contribute to the corpus." Well, yea, that is the purpose of Stack exchange: To build a repository of quality Q/A. The problem is that a lot of users don't seem to understand that, and as a result, take downvotes personally.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 9:00
  • That's exactly what I'm saying we should change, I think @Cerbrus. Does every question REALLY need to make a contribution in terms of the quality of the question? Is every new person coming here willing or able to do that? Has that philosophy changed from the first 100k question asked and the 15millionth? I would rather help newbies first and make them valuable members of the community later.
    – brabster
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 9:02
  • 26
    I disagree. The moment we reduce the importance of question quality, is when the site goes down the drain. The strong point of SO is that it is a repository of quality Q/A. We can help newbies by teaching them how to write a proper question, which includes doing proper research. Just answering low quality problem statements doesn't teach anyone anything.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 9:05
  • 1
    OK, so what is the value in stackoverflow? In my experience, it's searched rather than browsed. Who cares if there's questions that are too broad, too specific, "duplicates", poorly phrased (off topic seems fair enough!)? So long as the folks that run the site are doing a great job of finding relevant, well written, well answered question when asked then it's solving problems (which they are)...
    – brabster
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 19:17
  • I don't see what harm lowering the barrier for SO newbies, and allowing people to answer questions that are 'low quality', including those that have been asked before, while encouraging answerers to educate about better quality questions and stuff. It seems clear people we're excluding and letting down could be helped by that, who would be harmed and how?
    – brabster
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 19:20
  • Also, aside - why is this answer greyed out? Not used meta much, does it work differently? And is there a more chat-like place where these questions are being thrashed out?
    – brabster
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 19:21
  • 2
    greyed out because of the negative vote... Commented May 1, 2018 at 20:00
  • 5
    Not because the "negative vote" but actually due having a -8 net score. Same thing happens on main when the answer is -3.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 20:10
  • "Does every question REALLY need to make a contribution in terms of the quality of the question?" Yes. No hesitation. If it didn't make a contribution, it could be asked literally anywhere else that it's on topic. The explicit design goal of Stack Overflow is to be not that. "OK, so what is the value in stackoverflow? In my experience, it's searched rather than browsed." - yes; that's exactly how it provides value. What is the point of confusion here? Commented Mar 12 at 20:05
  • "Who cares if there's questions that are too broad, too specific, "duplicates", poorly phrased (off topic seems fair enough!)? So long as the folks that run the site are doing a great job of finding relevant" - We don't have a "too specific". If something is unlikely to help future readers, that's generally because of a typo, a failure of logic that doesn't motivate an actual programming question, or an idiosyncratic misunderstanding that isn't searchable. In short, those questions - except for identified duplicates - make it harder to find the good stuff, simply by existing. Commented Mar 12 at 20:07
  • And no, it's fine if we have duplicate questions, because they can actively help find the good ones. That's why we don't go around deleting duplicates, unless they're getting in the way by describing the problem poorly or having an irrelevant title (potentially masking the "right" question for a different problem). But we want the good answers all in the same place, which is why we do close those questions. That prevents them from being answered, so answers go on the right question instead. Commented Mar 12 at 20:09
  • "It seems clear people we're excluding and letting down could be helped by that, who would be harmed and how?" - you, and the countless others that you describe as using the site by searching it, when you find that low quality question instead of the one you actually wanted. Commented Mar 12 at 20:11

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