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In the current discussion of new-user experience, I found there is a serious ambiguity on the term new-user (or newbie, new-comer, etc.). new-user can refer to 2 very different groups:

  1. only new to the site, but a real professional and enthusiast programmer.

    For this group of new-users, they have the common-sense of programming just like every old-user of the site. From what I saw, old-users do welcome this group of new-users. Some of the problems due to their lack of experience on how to use the site is not difficult to handle.

    For example, these users might ask too broad open-ended question. Often, those questions are closed even without downvotes, since we know these questions are interesting in itself, only not-suitable to SO.

    By emphasizing more on the on-topic part, welcomingness for this group of new-user is not a problem.

  2. not only new to the site, but also new to programming

    Those are really problematic users. They don't know how for-loop works, don't know how to return a value from a function, don't know how to call a function, don't know how to debug trivial program...

    Most of the poor questions on the front-page are from this group of new-users. To some degree, their questions are inherently unsalvageable. This is not a site for tutoring or debugging service. We assume every participant already knows basic programming stuff at the beginning.

    From what I understand of the core value of this site, this group of user is not the expected participant. Trying to be welcoming to this group of user is contradictory to the target audience described in the help-center: They are definitely not professional programmer, and I don't see any "enthusiasm" if one chooses to ask others to debug a trivial programm instead of doing it themselves.

Unfortunately, I found the term new-user is more and more referring to completely newbie programmer. This is harmful, not only will it discourage old-users, who used to think this site is for real programmers, but it will also alienate new-user in the first group. When the site more or less assume new-user is completely newbie programmer, high-quality new-user won't join the site, which results in a vicious cicle to continuously lower the quality of the user base.

Now I want to ask what exactly is the new-user referring to ? If new-user does more or less refer to completely newbie programmer, I think SO need to be honest, and update the help-center to reflect the fact:

Stack Overflow is for professional, enthusiast and completely newbie programmers.

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    I've stopped using that term now, I just use 'new accounts', but yes, a new account may well be from some highly-skilled and experienced developer who finds some free time and wishes to spend some of it helping with SO Q&A, after all, Jon Skeet had a new account at some time. Things as they are ATM, I suspect they would very quicky decide to go play golf instead:( Commented May 1, 2018 at 7:57
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    'New accounts' covers all the classes: new-to-programming, new-to-SO, skilled/expereinced. Also puppets, ring-voters and evasion/burner accounts. Maybe I should use 'newly active accounts' instead, so also covering old accounts taken over by spammers:) Commented May 1, 2018 at 8:01
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    @MartinJames I think those new-users who complain we are unwelcoming are from a specific sub-group of all new-users, and that sub-group is ironically not the target audience of SO....
    – llllllllll
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 8:08
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    See also: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/257868/…
    – Raedwald
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 8:15
  • @liliscent yes, I'm sure youre correct there, but it's not easy to differentiate betwen them as they log in, so you end up treating them all the same:) Commented May 1, 2018 at 8:45
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    Note that "professional and enthusiastic programmers" has a significantly different meaning to "professional and enthusiast programmers" - since the first implies programmers exhibiting both traits (and so is more restrictive) the second refers to people falling in either category. Did you mean to use the more restrictive form in this answer?
    – Ben
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 12:58
  • @Ben Thanks, typo fixed.
    – llllllllll
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 13:01
  • @liliscent If you are going to recommend a list of things, you should definitely use a serial (Oxford) comma. Otherwise, in the same vein as Ben's comment, you risk meaning that SO is only for people are all at once professionals, enthusiasts, AND complete newbies at programming.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 14:33
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    @MartinJames FYI Jon Skeet never had a new account, his account had an old Stack Overflow.
    – Passer By
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 14:37
  • @MartinJames How about users new to StackOverflow?
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 14:42
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    I think this question needs to be answered before the 'SO is unwelcoming' post can be addressed. Commented May 1, 2018 at 19:39
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    This site is reasonably welcoming to new users who are already technically competent (both in programming and technical writing). The only "bad" part of my new user experience 4 years ago (coming in as someone fairly good at both) was that it felt difficult to get exposure/upvotes at first. No one was even remotely hostile to my content. The question here is spot-on Commented May 2, 2018 at 18:36
  • Part of the "problem" is that the content on SO is already so good, you can't help but attract folks that are completely new to programming. And those numbers grow daily. I know there are sites out there for complete beginners, but many (in my experience) searches on programming questions lead back to SO. Would it be helpful to create a separate part of the site that caters to new programmers? Something that wouldn't create excess noise for the more advanced, as-of-yet-unanswered questions? Newer users could get better at helping/answering that way too. Commented May 3, 2018 at 14:18
  • You are leaving out, I think, lurkers, who are almost always the largest group of users on any website. The question of what happens when a lurker turns into a user is very import as is why do lurkers convert to users. Sure there are some people who maybe show up for the first time and ask or answer a question, but I doubt it is close to the majority of new accounts (and certainly is the majority of lurkers). I think that a perspective that has been missing is that much first line "teaching" of SO norms should be addressed to lurkers.
    – Elin
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 15:04
  • Also overlooked one of the biggest source of complaints: lost neighbors. The ones who don't qualify for membership under loose or strict criteria, that showed up because they heard (wrongly) that SO is the place to get answers for all computer questions
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented May 4, 2018 at 2:24

4 Answers 4

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"Newbie" in this context really serves as a shorthand for users exhibiting a mixture of various traits:

  • they are new to programming and don't know enough to even understand their problem
  • they are new to trying to solve their own problems
  • they are new to the site and don't know the rules, don't know what is expected of content posted here
  • they are new to professional discourse, and don't know how to present their case in the most effective way or how to take in (critical) responses
  • they are new to discourse on the internet that isn't Facebook/YouTube/IM and mistake or apply the wrong tone

The more of these traits a single person exhibits at once, the worse they will be received. Some of these things can probably be improved by technical means, but some of these will always cause friction no matter what.

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  • I doubt there are so many traits, especially new to trying to solve their own problems implies new to programming. People don't know site-specific rules and people have no clue of programming are essentially different.
    – llllllllll
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 8:18
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    I think there is a difference between new-to-programming and new-to-problem-solving. A scientifically or technically trained person from any other field can probably come to programming as a newbie, yet have experience in how to tackle a problem and solve it by themselves (until they hit a wall and can then post an informed question). – I'll grant you that the last two points about communication could be combined.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 8:21
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    You forgot that some seem entirely new to using English.
    – Jongware
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 12:30
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    I think @usr2564301 's comment brings up an important category. Someone may have a great deal to contribute, but may be relatively new to conversing in English. This could lead to their contributions being received poorly - when a simple edit to improve readability could fix the problem.
    – Ben
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 12:41
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    @Ben This is not true, I've never seen a technically high-quality question/answer being poorly received because of unnatural English. Many people are willing to edit a good question/answer if their are some English language flaw.
    – llllllllll
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 12:54
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    @liliscent that is good to hear. I was not saying it is something which definitely happens. However I find I have to remind myself when I see a grammatically poor answer that grammatical skill is not the important thing here. Though it is probably more of a challenge to judge impartially with answers of mediocre technical quality.
    – Ben
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 13:09
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The word we're looking for here is tuning.

There will always be false positives where we hammer down on someone interested who just happened to (through ignorance or temporary carelessness) ask a bad question and false negatives where we let a bad question slide (through lack of policing or deliberate inaction).

How do we want to turn that dial?

The powers that be seem to want to turn it more towards the false negative end. I refuse to speculate on their motivations for doing so. But while the change is understandably controversial I think it's more of a gradient than the very starkly binary picture of things I get from your question.

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    Very well put; this makes the answer I was going to post here superfluous. A significant part of the posts made throughout this discussion have a blind spot: they appear to assume the people complaining about the site being unwelcoming are necessarily lazy leeches and hopeless cases.
    – duplode
    Commented May 4, 2018 at 14:56
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A "new user" should refer only to someone who is new to Stack Overflow the site (or the Stack Exchange network as a whole); in other words, their account is relatively new. The term "newbie" or "newb" is slang for this. You should never use "new user" to refer to someone new to programming for a couple reasons.

  • First, you often don't know how new they are to programming. Maybe they are new? Maybe they have more experience than you, just in other languages or from years/decades past before a career change. There are people who have been writing HTML and CSS and dabbling in JS for years and years before finally joining to ask how to do something a little more complex in JS or CSS (or SVG, etc.) that would still be considered "basic" by a lot of experienced users here.
  • Second, "new user" primarily means "new to the site", so avoid using this term for "new programmers". Also consider that when programmers describe themselves, they say "I'm a programmer", not "I'm a user".

If you want to refer to someone being new to programming, call them 'a beginning programmer' or a 'beginner' or 'novice' at programming/coding.

There is an alternate slang spelling called "noob", it's important to note that calling someone a noob is not calling them new; rather a noob is someone who should know better but is acting either intentionally or not like a newbie. For example, a noob on Stack Overflow would be someone who has 100,000 reputation but answers software recommendation questions or questions like "how do I center this text in a div", instead of closing them as off-topic or as duplicates. In short... not behaving the way we think high-rep, experienced users should behave. Also, this alternate term is often considered rude, and should be avoided when describing specific people or their behavior, per the site's code of conduct.

The problem you mention with the term 'enthusiast' I believe stems from many people assuming that anyone coming to Stack Overflow as an enthusiast is an experienced enthusiast... likewise with professionals; an intern at a web development firm is technically a professional on day one of their job, but are they really what you think of when you think of a programming or web dev professional? Most people here will likely say no. An enthusiast simply means:

A person who is filled with enthusiasm, such as one who is ardently attached to a cause, object, or pursuit

I am a space and space rocket enthusiast but I have not done anything close to building a rocket since I made a 1-foot tall rocket go 40 feet up into the air and parachute back down in grade school. I'm not at all what people would consider an "experienced" enthusiast, but I'm still an enthusiast, because I love the subject and the notion of space travel; I watch every SpaceX and Blue Origin and NASA launch that I possibly can. Likewise, a programming enthusiast or professional can be someone on day 1 or day 10,000 of their programming journey. It's our fault if we expect or demand something different, and we should do a better job of correcting that misnomer when we see it.

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    That's a wildly different meaning of "noob" than what I know. I took it to mean, derogatorily, someone with little experience and/or skill.
    – Passer By
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:17
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    @PasserBy That's what "newb" means. Noob may be used more interchangeably today with newb to mean the same thing but the origin is what I mentioned in my post. At least, as far back as 2000 when I remember first seeing the term in wide usage (though I didn't start using the internet until about 1998).
    – TylerH
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:18
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    The noob, newb, newbie differences have been all but lost to time. I haven't seen people really use them differently for years.
    – mbrig
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:22
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    @mbrig I have, but at any rate we shouldn't let that addendum of mine distract from the rest of the answer.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 20:07
-8

I also want to share some of my opinion on this topic.

IMO, new-user should exclusively refer to "a user who is new to the site, but not new to anything else". Especially, this user should not be new to programming, or even worse, new to problem solving (see @deceze answer).

According to what is currently stated in help-center, the community expects every real user to be already a professional and enthusiast programmer. Thus people new to programming or even problem solving are considered non-user, not new-user.

This distinction is not nitpicking. Because it will influence the policy of "to whom the community should be welcoming". We need to welcome high-quality new-users, by making site-specific rules more clear to them. But on the other hand, we need to kindly tell non-users that this site might not be suitable for them to participate.

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    "enthusiast | ɪnˈθjuːzɪast, ɛnˈθjuːzɪast | noun a person who is very interested in a particular activity or subject: a sports car enthusiast." – It doesn't say anything about how long you need to have been an enthusiast or how good you have to be at it. As long as the person can formulate a decent question, we have little business judging them to be a "non-user".
    – deceze Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 12:35
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    @deceze Some questions ask most basic concepts of a common programming language, those questions are bad not because of editorial reason, it's because any enthusiast will learn them from reading book, coding and debugging by themselves. Online Q/A site is not for teaching too basic things. See this answer.
    – llllllllll
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 12:52
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    Sure, but that's a different thing IMO. Anyone can ask bad questions, that's not tied to their level of enthusiasm or professionalism.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 12:54
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    "a user who is new to the site, but not new to anything else" so are we to suppose we can never ask or learn anything new? we are all beginners in something, are we not? Commented May 1, 2018 at 14:22
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    @RebecaMaia The point being made is SO doesn't and can't support everyone and anyone. This is always true to a certain degree. To take it to the extreme, if someone doesn't know how to type, we can't possibly help.
    – Passer By
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 14:46
  • @PasserBy Bad example; if someone doesn't know how to type, they would likely not be able to ask a question in the first place. Or, if they are using screen readers and other accessibility tools to interact with the site, we wouldn't know it.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:17
  • @TylerH Yeah I think the sentence came off wrong. I meant if someone is seeking help on how to input characters into their program, we can't help.
    – Passer By
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:22
  • "professional and enthusiast programmer" implies any user should be both professional and an enthusiast, while what we really want is both groups; professional programmers and enthusiast programmers. I also disagree on telling new/non users that this site is not for them, we have always been able to tell people how to improve their questions so they do fit our Q&A style, shunning users is what we don't want.
    – kevin
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 14:07
  • @kevin shunning users is what we don't want --> I disagree. Many non-users are too beginner to participate, which means their questions are impossible to be well-received no matter how they word their question. See this post for example. I think this user is innocent. It would be much more friendly to tell them not to participate at the beginning, than to pretend that they are eligible but finally all their questions get poorly received. Every site has target audience, it's inevitable.
    – llllllllll
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 17:36
  • @liliscent I think that is not a problem with the user, but with the question the user asked and pretending otherwise is the root cause of why outsiders perceive SO as elitist. I still believe users can be educated, regardless of skill we should welcome them, BUT we should provide good guidelines for asking a question with a set of rules that new users can easily interpret and apply. In a case like your example we can direct them to the resources for this question and close it, but should they ever have a question that does fit SO they are more than welcome to ask it here.
    – kevin
    Commented May 4, 2018 at 8:42

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