73

The weekend homework dumps are becoming unmanageable. User-moderators are running out of their vote allocation much too early. I've run out of dv/cv with 5 hours still to go.

I can manage OK with the current allocation of delete votes - they are only really useful on the few really bad questions with an upvoted answer, but the limits on dv/cv were too low before, and are now much too low.

Feature request: relax the weekend limits so as to allow effective moderation throughout the homework-dump-bump.

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  • 3
    Adding to this, perhaps cv is based upon number of questions posted the day before or something like that.
    – gsquaredxc
    Commented Mar 25, 2018 at 18:25
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    I've run out of dv/cv with 5 hours still to go. ... awesome! Get some fresh-air, you know, outside ... meet real people ... go hiking ...
    – rene
    Commented Mar 25, 2018 at 18:40
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    @rene Hey! Bailey and I have walked 6km today. Its doesn't take all that long to eat up those votes on a Sunday:( Maybe our dog could open an account.. Commented Mar 25, 2018 at 18:47
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    If your dog has passed the minimal age limit, and it can gain enough rep to close-vote, then go ahead!
    – Jongware
    Commented Mar 25, 2018 at 18:54
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    why not allowing to cumulate close votes on a week? ending sunday. Or give 7 times the amount of close votes starting sunday, for the whole week? Commented Mar 25, 2018 at 19:42
  • 3
    and for the delete votes, get more rep, you'll get more delvotes :) Commented Mar 25, 2018 at 19:43
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    How about doubling your voting power? Erm, but wait. Question volume is 50% of a normal work day but you don't get 50% less close-votes. So your votes already have twice as much impact. Nobody should subject themselves to so much misery, time to call it a day. Commented Mar 25, 2018 at 19:59
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    @HansPassant the 50% figure is doubtless correct but user-moderators tend to run out of votes more quickly on Sundays. I assume that this happens because the ratio of good/bad questions is less than 50% of that on a normal weekday:( Commented Mar 25, 2018 at 20:54
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    On MSE: Let me choose when I use my close votes @Jean-FrançoisFabre
    – jscs
    Commented Mar 25, 2018 at 21:08
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    I'd argue that users who run out of daily close votes should be able to cast recommend closure flags. If I were a user who would run into this issue, I'd use an alternate account to cast RC flags once I run out of close votes.
    – gparyani
    Commented Mar 25, 2018 at 21:42
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    I understand the need, but I don't like the idea of "special days". Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 12:38
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    I don't think it needs to be "special days" either (and that opens a cultural can of worms too). Just raise the limits altogether. "You can't handle more than 20 close votes during your day" or w/e is just patronising. I'll be the judge ta! Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 15:08
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    These are homework posts? I thought they were freelance questions raised by people who have promised to duplicate Googles infrastructure using Notepad (apparently that was someones test on a freelance site to see if they read the job spec - he got lots of offers to do the work). Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 15:47
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    It seems an XY Problem. We have a lot of bad questions on Sundays so let us raise the CV limits. Perhaps we should focus on how to block or reduce these bad questions
    – Steve
    Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 16:05
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    @Steve That's way harder to implement and would at least take a while, if we even can come up with a good system for that to begin with. The FR in OP on the other hand could be implemented as a first response immediately.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 16:41

3 Answers 3

14

Anecdotally, you are but one person close and downvoting poor* questions. Anecdotally, one person cannot hope to weather the storm of poor questions on their own. So one would hope that there are others which are helping you out here.

That said, I remain unconvinced that this is an actual necessary feature unless we can see demonstrated numbers that poor* questions are tough to moderate on the weekend. From what I know, the overall site participation numbers fall off a cliff between Friday and Saturday UTC, and the downvoting doesn't change all that much during that period of time.

The onus here is on you to prove that these questions are proving to be too much for us to handle during the quieter hours of site activity. I'm not seeing it, since all you have is anecdotal evidence.

*: Hopefully you're not nuking good homework questions just because they're homework questions...

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    well FWIW I checked my close voting history for few last weeks and there seem to be "spikes" of non-closed questions on weekends (March 3-4, 10-11 and 17-18) compared to weekdays. Including such blatant cases as this one (close votes expired, gimme a f#cking break)
    – gnat
    Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 17:22
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    @gnat: Is that more closely correlated with the fact that there's simply less traffic on those days?
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 17:24
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    hard to tell. One thing I know for sure is I close-vote same kind questions on weekends as on weekdays, and what I see is that weekend questions seem to stay open much more frequently. It looks like on weekends my votes just have less effect
    – gnat
    Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 17:27
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    ...oh by the way, this kind of hints on what kind statistics we can look for in order to learn whether the issue is real or imaginary. Pick a bunch of active close voters and compare efficiency of their votes on weekdays vs weekends, what percentage of their votes ends with questions getting closed, deleted, unanswered
    – gnat
    Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 17:36
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    If I had directed my post more widely, then I would been accused of putting words in others' mouths when I have no right to speak for them. So, this is what I have fouind. There are voting buttons for those who agree/disagree. Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 19:42
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    @gnat: dear god, that Russian one has been up for 3 weeks. I've cast Close Vote #4; please have someone put it down now.
    – Jongware
    Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 21:08
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    @MartinJames: I kinda want to see a bit more backbone from you on this. You stand a very good chance to convince me here, since there's the smell of more than anecdotal evidence. You just have to take that next step and prove that this needs to be done.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 21:34
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    @gnat So the way you've phrased it indicates to me not that there are more questions that need closing on weekends, just that there are fewer people casting close votes on the weekends. So giving people more close votes wouldn't do anything to fix that problem.
    – TylerH
    Commented Mar 27, 2018 at 16:35
  • @TylerH you're right about that I think primary issue is there are fewer people. Giving more close votes could in theory solve that (think of 5 active users using 1000 votes each to close 1000 questions, stuff like that) but without stats (requested here) it seems somewhat pointless to drill deeper...
    – gnat
    Commented Mar 27, 2018 at 16:44
  • ...another potentially concerning thing is, what if homework cheaters already learned about that it's easier to get through on weekends. If this becomes (became?) a widely known trick then we may easily get more questions that need closing. "Hey fellow classmates! if you want your h/w dump to get better chances for help, just post in on weekend. Share this wisdom on Twitter, Facebook and everywhere else, help other students"
    – gnat
    Commented Mar 27, 2018 at 16:45
4

While discussing stats request related to this issue I re-checked explanation of how items are prioritized in close queue and, you know, if system really works as described there then it actually makes weekend questions escape completion of close vote review:

the more previous reviews a given task has had, the closer to the top of the queue it'll be... preference is also given to the most recently queued items...

Let's see, imagine a close-worthy question asked on weekend. Someone's vote / flag pushes it in close queue where it hangs unattended because there are less reviewers on weekend. Okay, now new week starts and active reviewers get back to the queue... but!

But at this moment our question is heavily lower in priority by both of the stated criteria: first, because it has too few reviews (since there were too few reviewers to look at it on weekend) and second, because it has been queued too long ago (a day or two before, at this age it just can't compete with questions that entered queue in last few hours).

As a result it gets to the very bottom of the queue with zero chances for reviewers to check it, eventually ages away from it and hangs open, probably misleading inexperienced askers into belief that such questions are okay.


I think it would be interesting to see what happens if close queue prioritization was somehow tweaked to account for above. Most straightforward approach would probably be to simply ignore weekend hours when calculating "queuing age" parameter.

This kind of things looks easy to measure: just calculate percentage of questions that age away from queue for those that enter it on weekends and weekdays. If prioritization is done right there shouldn't be big difference.

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The weekend homework dumps are becoming unmanageable.

Really, I haven't noticed a problem, so you must be wrong. I'm curious what you mean by "unmanageable". What is your role in the Stack Overflow hierarchy that you are "managing" all the questions that come in on the weekend?

Snark aside, this site is not about users getting a high score or maxing out their vote uses each day, but rather the opposite: these votes of yours are a limited feature to allow you to help out just a bit. If there is a deluge of problematic posts on a given time, more than "users" can handle, then we should have an election to increase the number of moderators. Luckily, that is what we are having as I type.

It is not the job of users to act as janitors or bouncers to the site. If you find yourself frustrated by the quality of questions, do what you can to improve them or remove them; the site grants you extensive tools as a user to do that. If you have exhausted your tools, then just move to a different tag, or go outside, or play a video game. You are (hopefully) not being forced to look at the questions page for any specific length of time.

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    Really, I haven't noticed a problem, so you must be wrong. Does that extend to all of Stack Overflow? When you don't notice something it's simply not there?
    – Adriaan
    Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 15:45
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    This is a strange answer. While I get the concerns about e.g. unlimited close voting, the argument here reads like conformity for the sake of conformity. "It is not the job of users to act as janitors or bouncers to the site" -- loaded words aside, the fact is the site relies on its users for content curation.
    – duplode
    Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 15:56
  • @Adriaan It's snark to emphasize how the request is framed in such an opinionated and odd way.
    – TylerH
    Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 16:01
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    @duplode I am all for more close votes and more delete votes. But not because Martin James doesn't like homework questions or thinks weekends on SO suck. This is a direct response to how problematically he framed the request.
    – TylerH
    Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 16:02
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    Being opinionated here isn't problematic -- this is Meta, after all. If the underlying issue here is the lack of non-anecdotal evidence in Martin's post, I can kind of see where you are coming from. However (1) your answer, for all of its intensity, doesn't address that directly; (2) I consider it problematic to shut down Meta discussions due to the OP not providing non-anecdotal evidence in cases in which it is not at all obvious how to gather such evidence.
    – duplode
    Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 16:47
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    @duplode It depends on what subject the opinion is held on. Asking for a system change based on an opinion not backed up by even unsourced numbers is not a laudable use of opinion even on Meta. Some things are not really appropriate "opinion" subjects. And this isn't shutting down Meta discussion, it is participating in it. If I wanted to shut down the discussion I would vote to close the question.
    – TylerH
    Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 16:50
  • "If I wanted to shut down the discussion I would vote to close the question" -- That's fair. I do think, though that it's not a big step from this stance to finding a "can no longer be reproduced" vote on such questions appropriate. On this broader point, I feel the discussion here, though originated in a rather different context, is somewhat relevant.
    – duplode
    Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 17:23
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    'What is your role in the Stack Overflow hierarchy that you are "managing" all the questions that come in on the weekend?' - I can't win. If I phrased it more widely, some user would complain 'Hey - you don't speak for us!'. So, I refer only to my own experiences and, if others wish to (dis)agree, they can downvote/upvote. Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 19:39
  • @duplode I suppose folks could make that step, but I would frown upon people using that close reason on this question so long as users have the vote-to-close privilege. It's more appropriate for site features which are no longer part of the site, like SO Documentation (or for bug reports which are already fixed).
    – TylerH
    Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 19:57
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    @MartinJames FYI I don't take any issue with you or with the desire for more CVs/Del-Vs; I hope you don't take the criticism personally in my answer. I sympathize with you as a fellow SOCVR regular especially. I just can't support this request as it is currently reasoned.
    – TylerH
    Commented Mar 26, 2018 at 19:58
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    I support this answer. The question reads like "I like shoveling crap, gimme a bigger shovel!", ignoring the underlying cause.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Mar 29, 2018 at 7:30
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    @CodeCaster: that simile of yours made me re-think the question, the issue it attempts to solve (and how), and this answer. Well done.
    – Jongware
    Commented Mar 30, 2018 at 13:52

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