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Related (from 2009): Now that there is a League of Super Heroes should the number of votes required to close/move be reduced?

Also very related (but not identical): Why are 5 close votes required?

Lest this question be marked as a duplicate of either of the two previous questions, the difference between this one and the second one I linked to is that that post was asking why it was made 5 in the first place, I'm suggesting that it be changed from 5. The difference between this question and the first one I linked to is that the first post was written in 2009 and I think that the answers there are obsolete at this point.

One of the answers to the first post I linked to stated that "I haven't seen a significant number of 'bad' questions lingering for a long time." I assume that that was true at the time (I wasn't around, though, so I'm not sure), but as I write this the close queue has 10,000 items in it and a significant number of close votes simply age away, so even if this was true at the time, it's definitely not the case now. I think that this fact alone would tend to argue for lowering the number of votes required.

Another argument in favor of closing is the fact that the number of votes required to delete VLQ posts was recently reduced to 4, so why not make close votes 4 as well? If anything, it seems like there's an even stronger case for reducing the number of close votes to 4 than for reducing the VLQ queue since most of the time the VLQ queue's about 100 - 200 items long and the Close Queue has 10,000 items (plus the reputation requirements are much higher for close votes, so there are fewer people who even can vote to close questions).

A third reason to do this is the sheer volume of questions we get on this site. In the C# tag, a question that was written 17 minutes ago is already off the first page; this tends to hold across all of the popular tags. The high question volume makes it fairly difficult to draw attention to even well-formulated questions, which also makes it more difficult to get answers. The last statistics I saw had around 72% of questions getting answered, which actually isn't all that great. In fact, Area 51 states that a "healthy" public beta should have an answer rate of at least 90%; obviously SO isn't in public beta, but I think that the point holds - the entire point of asking questions is to get answers. Besides, that's how we typically get members - if we want new users to stick around and participate in the site, there should be a good chance of their questions getting high-quality answers. (In fact, I initially joined Stack Overflow because I was new to Android development and I was having trouble getting push notifications to work). Obviously, my point isn't to rant about that; I do think that closing lousy questions faster could help mitigate that, though (at least to some degree).

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  • 52
    Please do it.
    – Alon Eitan
    Commented Apr 28, 2017 at 19:45
  • 13
    It seems to me that you're speaking from the perspective of one who navigates through the review queues. I personally don't think such a reduction is warranted for the reasons provided, but I'd like to give you a chance. Do you have any evidence other than anecdotal that would suggest that reducing the number of close (and reopen) votes would have a positive impact on the site?
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 28, 2017 at 19:59
  • 51
    Or at least make silver badged users casting votes to be counted as 2 votes, so the community can close questions faster (Because I believe that there is a place for improvement here)
    – Alon Eitan
    Commented Apr 28, 2017 at 20:01
  • 9
    I prefer 3. It is a nice odd number.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 28, 2017 at 20:03
  • 164
    Screw it, let's close every question as soon as it's asked and wait for those that are worthy to get 5 reopen votes. That way we'll definitely get good content! :P
    – Clive
    Commented Apr 28, 2017 at 20:04
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    Not sure if @clive is serious or not. Am going to go with serious. Upvoted.
    – user1228
    Commented Apr 28, 2017 at 20:20
  • 8
    I like @AlonEitan 's idea - we already give gold badge holders a dupehammer, so it doesn't seem all that strange that badge holding would include additional advantages for close voting. Commented Apr 28, 2017 at 20:24
  • 8
    I think this is too harsh of a tool to provide for all questions. It only takes 4 users to go through a tag and close 40 questions per day like this, if they feel it is "unsavory". I would prefer instead that, if it were to be implemented, the 4 close vote rule would only apply to questions which were negatively voted (as in, the question had a net vote less than 0).
    – Travis J
    Commented Apr 28, 2017 at 20:54
  • 13
    @TravisJ I'm not sure that that would make all that much of a difference - the vast majority of closed questions have scores of 0 or less (except for some old questions that are now deemed off-topic because the rules changed since they were posted). If the question score is 0, you could bypass the restriction by downvoting it before voting to close. Commented Apr 28, 2017 at 20:59
  • 9
    @TravisJ: As opposed to only taking 5 users to do the same thing as it is now? I mean, yeah, obviously, 4 instead of 5. That's it. Not sure what other point you're trying to make. Commented Apr 28, 2017 at 22:24
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    @TravisJ: My point is just that your statement sounds as though you're making a big rhetorical point, a really killer argument — "It only takes 4 users to [do something we really don't want!]" — but the argument doesn't have much force when considering that an awfully similar argument can be formulated for the current state. Maybe there are other problems that would result from switching close vote thresholds; I don't know. But that particular one seems rather silly to worry about. Commented Apr 28, 2017 at 22:31
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    I like @AlonEitan's idea. At the moment silver badge holders don't really get any extra powers from having it, even though in some situations it can take years to attain it (low traffic areas). If silver badge holder close votes counted as 2 that would really help close off poor questions quicker.
    – user692942
    Commented Apr 29, 2017 at 6:07
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    I'd love to see silver badges affect the strength of close votes, particularly for too broad and unclear reasons.
    – DavidG
    Commented Apr 29, 2017 at 6:20
  • 10
    It seems all people do these days the moment they see a question is glance over it to find some reason to obliterate it. I get it, there's an ocean of crap constantly deluging the site, and closing questions is low-effort compared to understanding a question and partaking in the race to answer it. But I'm perpetually distressed by the number of questions closed incorrectly. It's hard to fix that later because reopen votes decay over time and no-one's looking at the question any more. If you're going to reduce the number of close votes to 4, please also reduce the number of reopen votes to 3.
    – Boann
    Commented Apr 29, 2017 at 13:43
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    @Boann You really see that many questions closed incorrectly? I hardly see any.
    – DavidG
    Commented Apr 29, 2017 at 14:07

3 Answers 3

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Going from history, it seems that the real reason the number was increased was to prevent "closing wars," the same question being closed/reopened several times. It seems that such a solution wasn't actually enough until the "you only have one shot" feature was also introduced, after which the number wasn't modified.

Allowing a single person with 3,000 rep to close a question isn’t really in the spirit of having a consensus that SO was founded on. It’s true that a peer can then come along and reopen the question at wiill any time, but this then leads to ping-pong battles of opening and closing between two users.
-- https://stackoverflow.blog/2008/12/31/i-move-to-close-this-question/

Should the number of votes to close be reduced from its current number, or would we just get back into close wars?
-- Now that there is a League of Super Heroes should the number of votes required to close/move be reduced?

The "close war" problem was averted using other means, but:

Reducing the votes required would be like implementing "having more close votes" without actually shaving away the hopes on humanity on the already fatigued close voters.

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  • "Reducing the votes required would be like implementing "having more close votes" without actually shaving away the hopes on humanity on the already fatigued close voters" Is this really a problem considering that prolific close voters already lost their hopes on humanity?
    – SE is dead
    Commented May 1, 2017 at 12:31
-6

Software Engineering (then-Programmers) did an experiment a little while back, wherein the number of close votes required to close a question was reduced to 3 temporarily, to see if it had any noticeable effect. Here's the meta post about it.

I'm going to draw attention to this section in particular:

Why 3 votes?

Initially users with enough reputation could unilaterally close and reopen questions on Stack Overflow. In December 31, 2008, the close vote system was created and required 3 votes. Between then and the next April, the limit was increased to 5. (Shog9 remembers 3 lasting a few weeks.) The documentation of the site setting reads:

KEEP THIS AN ODD NUMBER

So we need an odd number greater than 1 and less than 5.

Assuming the same thing applies here, the only option for reducing the number of close votes required is to reduce it to 3. I'm not comfortable with that. Maybe not a massive number of questions are closed incorrectly at the moment, but even if it's a small number currently I think it's likely that we'd see a dramatic increase in incorrect closures with 3 close votes. It's significantly easier to get 3 people to agree on something than it is 5, even with a community as large as Stack Overflow.

Given that fact, I'd predict that the effect of this would be to reduce the size of the Close review queue, in exchange for increasing the size of the Reopen review queue. I'm not sure it's worth it.

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    increasing the size of the Reopen review queue - Great! If people will edit their terrible closed questions and making them worthy to reopen then we did a good job by improving the quality of questions on SO, if not - leaving them closed is even better. Currently the junk out there is beyond belief
    – Alon Eitan
    Commented Apr 30, 2017 at 13:03
  • "increasing the size of the Reopen review queue" I would argue that the reviewers of the reopen queue are too lazy lately... or more like they are always looking for stuff to do.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 30, 2017 at 13:06
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    @AlonEitan In theory, yes. In practice, I doubt it would make users any more likely to edit their questions.
    – ArtOfCode
    Commented Apr 30, 2017 at 13:59
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    @ArtOfCode I think you're right about that - And if they won't edit their question, then it will never be reopened. But currently there are over 9150 pending question for closer, reviewing some of them show that they are there for good reason - Personally I prefer a huge queue of potentially-edditied-and-now-good questions pending for reopen over the currently huge open and VLQ questions queue. And as a side note - I don't believe this suggestion will be considered by the SO administrators/decision makers. I HOPE i'm wrong though :)
    – Alon Eitan
    Commented Apr 30, 2017 at 14:10
  • 1
    It doesn't seem like inappropriate closing of questions is a major issue. I've seen plenty of questions that should've been closed stay open, but I've only seen a few cases of questions being closed improperly. Do you have some examples of that? Commented Apr 30, 2017 at 22:14
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    One of the problems with the reopen review queue is that's it sort-of broken @AlonEitan. A question gets pushed to the queue once on the first edit only. It doesn't matter who made that edit or how significant it is. I see questions pushed to the reopen queue just because someone made a minor useless edit (fix a typo, remove "thanks", etc.) far too often, which robs the OP from salvaging their question. It would be much better if edits by community members wouldn't push questions to the reopen queue, but only edits by the OP and explicit reopen votes would. Commented May 1, 2017 at 4:41
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    I also don't think those 9k questions in the close queue are really that big of a problem by the way. Many are old questions which should probably be closed, but *shrug* if they're not. Given that SO has over 13 million questions, 9k is really a very low number. Commented May 1, 2017 at 4:43
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    Why does it supposedly need to be an odd number?
    – nobody
    Commented May 3, 2017 at 1:04
  • @AndrewMedico I see that you are the odd out.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 21, 2018 at 18:12
  • @Raedwald Read the post again. "Maybe not a massive number...". More to the point, this discussion is old and dead.
    – ArtOfCode
    Commented Feb 19, 2019 at 7:30
-28

I do not like this idea. For a while now I've been of the opinion that SO is unwelcoming/unkind/unforgiving to new users posting questions. This attitude is demonstrated by downvotes and close votes without any explanation of how the new user colored outside the SO lines. I think reducing the number of votes to close will exacerbate the problem. There's a lot of judging going on but not as much mentoring/guiding.

Note that by "new users" I'm referring to users asking their 1st or 2nd question. "Burn all the lousy questions!" isn't a great way to welcome new users to the community. The question may be lousy but perhaps the person isn't lazy or stupid and did their best. I don't have data to support this but it's my impression that people are willing to take time to cast negative votes but fewer people are willing to take the time to educate.

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    What makes you think that only new users post bad questions?
    – Braiam
    Commented May 1, 2017 at 15:23
  • 3
    I agree about it being unwelcoming and about the need for people to explain downvotes and close votes. I've always been of the opinion that it's counterproductive and rude to downvote or vote to close without explanation. Another big issue is that the help center is poorly organized (it's not clear what's important to read) and the site tour isn't all that helpful to new users. Commented May 1, 2017 at 15:24
  • 1
    @Braiam I'm pretty sure he's not saying that. More of just the assumption that most new users post bad questions at first. Related, I suppose: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/333867/…
    – Jeutnarg
    Commented May 1, 2017 at 15:25
  • 3
    That's not to say that we shouldn't close bad questions just because the OP is new, though, especially for blatantly bad questions (e.g. zero-effort homework dumps or things that the OP could've found in 30 seconds on Google); that's just rude on their part. I also don't think that lowering the number of close votes will make any difference regarding the issue of people being more welcoming to new users; bad questions will probably be downvoted into oblivion with snarky comments whether the number of close votes is 3, 4, or 5. Commented May 1, 2017 at 15:27
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    It's really not about us shunning new users to the site. It's really about quality control. The only real tool we have to educate the user are downvotes and close votes, since that gets the message across both faster and more concisely than simply asking them nicely. Besides, asking nicely wouldn't scale on a site like this, anyhow. It's really not intended to be mean.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 1, 2017 at 15:29
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    @EJoshuaS: Yes. We've already got a chatroom dedicated to closing off questions, and my brush-ins with them have demonstrated that this group and myself have a rather strong difference of opinion when it comes to closing and deleting questions. I am genuinely concerned that this group or others like it can use their numbers to overwhelming close questions that they simply don't like, and with a reduced close vote on the questions, that will make this task that much simpler. Conversely it'd make it simpler to reverse, but I'm genuinely uncomfortable with groups being able to close en masse.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 1, 2017 at 15:33
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    Well, I don't have sympathy for crappy questions on the site. If you have sympathy for those questions, then we are in trouble.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 1, 2017 at 15:42
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    What you describe is more of a problem with messaging. Closing a question is supposed to give the user enough information to correct the problem via the close reason used. Unfortunately, incorrect close reasons are often used as super downvotes where a downvote would have sufficed. In other cases the asker simply doesn't see the messaging or refuses to believe there could be something wrong with their question. Reducing the number of closevotes required doesn't fix either problem, it's instead fixing a different problem. I don't think it affects these two problems.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 1, 2017 at 15:42
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    @Paul I have sympathy for them, too; I've made several proposals to improve things for them, in fact: see here and here for my proposals on helping new users tag questions as well as my proposal to reword the site tour section on questions here Commented May 1, 2017 at 15:46
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    @Makoto, downvotes and close votes by themselves are not educational, or very marginally so. To me they're like a math teacher slapping a student when a mistake is made but not explaining what the mistake is.
    – Paul
    Commented May 1, 2017 at 15:56
  • 1
    @Paul I completely agree - downvotes are particularly uninformative, especially without comments explaining why. Downvoting without comment is basically saying "I think that this question is bad, but I'm not going to tell you why." At least the On Hold message gives some specific feedback as to what the problem is and gives some advice as to how to improve the question. Commented May 1, 2017 at 15:59
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    @Paul: "downvotes and close votes by themselves are not educational, or very marginally so." Close votes are educational; the reason for the closure is right there. Downvotes are not intended to be educational. They're there to let other people know the quality of the question. It's a signpost saying, "stay away if you don't want to waste your time". The audience for downvotes isn't the asker; it's people seeing the question in a list. Commented May 1, 2017 at 18:08
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    I believe that a lot of the new users are introduced to SO when Googling some issues they are having with their code and the first thing they see is some 6+ year old question asking about a broad subject and getting wonderful answers. Today of course this type of questions is unacceptable but the new user is not aware to the fact that times have changed and asking questions this style will get them "burned" as you say. But I still think that we should be strict about the quality of questions here and not compromise when it come to new users. Asking on SO is a privilege not be taken for granted
    – Alon Eitan
    Commented May 1, 2017 at 19:31
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    @Paul: "So based on the number of downvotes my answer has received, my answer is of low quality." No, this is Meta. Based on the number of downvotes your suggestion received, people do not like it and/or do not want to see it enacted. Or they think that it's not well-founded. Whichever the case, it's a quick indication that many people feel that it's not worth reading. Commented May 1, 2017 at 21:22
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    Unwelcome is such an unwelcome word. The site should seem... daunting to new users, they should be triggered to make every effort to make their first contribution an exceptionally good one. If some people interpret that as "unwelcome", well. That's not very nice of them, to be honest. The implication hurts.
    – Gimby
    Commented May 2, 2017 at 14:47

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