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We're still adjusting to the upheavals and site examination since Jay Hanlon's "Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming" blog.

There's some confusion about what is rude or polite and a moving focus on how our site is performing under new scrutiny. There's been an increase in comment flags.

One simple trick that helps is not replying. There is no onus to reply when leaving a comment. If you've left a comment asking for clarification and the OP then responds by starting an argument, don't reply.

Don't argue in comments

There's no point in arguing in the comments. It's better to leave one well crafted comment than 4 or 5 comments that gradually deteriorate as the OP fails to take well-meaning advice. What's worse is when those comments are flagged and deleted. If there is a pattern of user comments being flagged and deleted as abusive, it raises an automatic flag for mods and frequently will result in a mod message, which can lead to suspensions.

Put helpful or constructive first.

Brutal honesty is not helpful if you don't consider there's a person at the other end of the keyboard. So honest feedback combined with helpfulness is the recipe needed for successful comments.

When to comment.

  1. Do you intend to be helpful, wanting to advise the OP on how to improve their post? Yes, proceed to step 2.
  2. Is your comment professional and clear? Yes, proceed to step 3.
  3. Post the comment.

If the OP replies.

  1. Is the OP asking for advice on how to improve that you haven't included? Yes, proceed to step 4. No, proceed to step 2.
  2. Is the OP arguing with you? Yes. proceed to step 3.
  3. Is the OP aggressive/rude/belligerent? Flag the comment and proceed to "when not to comment".
  4. Do you have time and patience to respond and are interested in helping the OP? Yes, refer to "when to comment". No, refer to "when not to comment".

When not to comment.

  1. When you're time poor and/or feeling impatient.
  2. When the comment is sarcastic.
  3. When someone is arguing with you.
  4. When the OP tells you to stop commenting.
  5. When you don't feel like commenting.
  6. When you feel annoyance at being pinged.
  7. When another user has already said what you plan to say.

It's human nature to respond to pings, social media relies upon it. But it's ok to ignore comment replies. We're all volunteers here and your time is valuable. Help when you can, and if it becomes an annoyance feel free to walk away. If a comment is rude, flag it, do not respond.

Repetition in comments

The other thing is, when we see somebody doing something wrong, we want to say "hey that's not right". If someone has already said that, you don't need to repeat it. It needs to be said once. If anyone becomes abusive in the comments, do not reply. When someone is angry, arguing with them will invariably not end well. Flag and move on.

We're being nice, not accepting poor quality content

There is fear that being nice and tolerant is going to keep poor quality content on the site. If a post is low quality, it shouldn't stay on the site. Being nice and welcoming people onto the site comes with our attitudes when we communicate with the newcomer. Deleting poor quality content, for better or worse, is something all users need to accept. If the post is not up to scratch, it will be removed.

Don't let a fear based on the need to moderate content or a loss of community input into content moderation, drive you to continue replying in comments beyond what is helpful. We can offer tips and advice, but it is ultimately up to each person to improve their own content and that's what flags and votes (especially close votes and delete votes) are for. We can only do so much as a community, and it's important we conserve our efforts. In doing so, we can actually improve how welcoming we are perceived to be. In other words, less is sometimes more when it comes to commenting.

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    Are we still blaming the comment feature for all unwelcomingness?
    – mario
    Commented May 25, 2018 at 9:43
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    @mario if you're not going to write a constructive comment, why write at all? Do you think that a sarcastic comment like that is in any way helpful? What are you trying to achieve by that comment?
    – user3956566
    Commented May 25, 2018 at 9:45
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    @mario - comments is just one area where SO is perceived as being unwelcoming. The fact that there are other areas to address doesn't stop us wanting to address this one. Sorting it out won't make SO welcoming all by itself, but it will help.
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented May 25, 2018 at 9:49
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    I just find it odd that we're still waxing about this. To me crude comments are a symptom at best. -- And for some reason we completely skipped this years "Newbies.SO" proposal; which would easily fix the perceived rudeness woe.
    – mario
    Commented May 25, 2018 at 9:54
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    One great tip which I recommend is to upvote existing comments instead of repeating advice. This reinforcement of an existing view saves your time and indicates to OP a comment which they should note. If, however, you have the urge to upvote a sarcastic comment, hold back, think again, and maybe click on flag instead.
    – jpp
    Commented May 25, 2018 at 11:38
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    Post deleted, undeleted...admit it, you're just trolling now ;) Commented May 25, 2018 at 12:03
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    Part of the problem is that genuinely helpful comments are perceived as "attacking the OP", by some askers. There's no way around that.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 25, 2018 at 12:16
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    People leave rude comments because they're frustrated. They're frustrated because too many people who can't construct good questions ask here, and assume either that they can, or that they shouldn't have to. People who can't construct good questions ask here because (1) at no point are they told that maybe their question won't be accepted, (2) they do get answers sometimes, (3) maybe they don't know about the alternatives and (4) asking on Stack Overflow is easy. Getting (the Meta-reading subset of) people to write less unwelcoming comments is treating the symptom instead of the disease. Commented May 25, 2018 at 12:34
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    @Dukeling, Closing unclear / broad questions in a timely manner is a huge problem. Fixing it will solve many of the issues you describe. DV + comment is great, but in my opinion VTC should be the first port of call. Too often I hear users say, "I DV & commented, but I didn't think the question was bad enough to VTC." My default practice is VTC before going any further.
    – jpp
    Commented May 25, 2018 at 14:00
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    @mario Newbies.SO would probably be little more than a dumping ground for terrible questions (which is not necessarily to say I'm not in support of it). The problem with most questions isn't really that the asker doesn't know much about programming, it's that they don't know much about asking good questions, and moving a bad question to a different site wouldn't make it any less bad. Although being a good programmer and asking a good question does both require a lot of analytical and research ability. Commented May 25, 2018 at 14:49
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    I respectfully disagree that "Brutal honesty, is not helpful, if you don't consider there's a person at the other end of the keyboard. ". Brutal honesty is the most helpful thing that you can give to people. But there is a difference between being honest and being blunt. I don't think your post is explicit enough to advise as to which one you want. Do you want people to stop being blunt in their honesty or just stop being honest? Commented May 25, 2018 at 15:17
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    @duplode Which is why I'm saying that section of this post isn't explicit enough. It should say something to the effect of "If your comment is both honest and rude, ditch the rude bit.". Instead, we're encouraged to combine honesty with helpfulness, which sounds like pandering where we shouldn't need to. Honesty is typically implicitly helpful without having to add anything else. Commented May 25, 2018 at 15:34
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    I'm totally on board with developing FAQ blueprints formulating "being nice" into a set of rules that are specific and detailed, yet don't feel like censorship and nanny-statery. This looks like a good step in that direction.
    – Pekka
    Commented May 25, 2018 at 16:48
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    "Are we still blaming the comment feature for all unwelcomingness?" is a perfectly valid point, and not unhelpful. If you consider this to be too snarky, you're setting the bar extremely low. Commented May 25, 2018 at 18:18
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    @Cerbrus "genuinely helpful comments are perceived as 'attacking the OP', by some askers. There's no way around that." -- Indeed; there is only so much we can, or should, do. In spite of that, though, there is something to gain in curbing unhelpful comments, and in leaving out the unhelpful bits within otherwise helpful comments. It is not an all-or-nothing situation.
    – duplode
    Commented May 25, 2018 at 18:38

1 Answer 1

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Upvote existing comments

One way to improve the quality of a comments stream is to upvote an existing helpful comment which materially aligns with your views and omitting to comment yourself altogether. This is good practice for several reasons:

  1. Duplicate content does not add value. This applies even to ephemeral content such as comments.
  2. Upvoting reinforces a single idea. OP is more likely to react favourably to a single upvoted comment than a barrage of 10 similar comments with variations in wording.
  3. Comments are for clarification. By upvoting a single comment, rather than many users adding similar comments, you are indicating a community view rather than instigating a one-on-one discussion.
  4. SO logic focuses on upvoted comments. In a long thread where all comments are not shown by default, upvoted comments take precedence.
  5. Save your time. It is a more productive use of volunteers' time to reinforce existing comments than to write new, similar ones.

Note that the comment you upvote does not have to be identical to what you might write yourself; it just needs to be materially aligned.

But beware...

If you see a sarcastic, accusatory, snarky, or otherwise harmful comment which you agree with, consider moving your mouse a few pixels lower and click on the flag instead.

Edit: For the same reasons upvoting comments is helpful, flagging where appropriate is particularly important for highly upvoted comments.

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    To clarify: When the sarcasm is glaringly obvious, it can help to make a point.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 25, 2018 at 12:15
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    Hmm, not that this helps much. I've been losing a lot of highly upvoted comments lately. On this meta question as well. Suppressing speech at meta is a very slippery slope. Unfortunately that blasted blog post seemed to have empowered this kind of intolerance, hard to imagine that was the author's true intention. Commented May 25, 2018 at 12:27
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    @HansPassant: Obligatory "We're less welcoming to experienced users now" comment.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 25, 2018 at 12:52
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    @Cerbrus sarcasm is never helpful and not welcome in comments. By definition: Sarcasm : the use of irony to mock or convey contempt. Not helpful. When some of the regulars who keep objecting to these types of posts understand that, we will have made progress. We're not less welcoming to experienced users, we don't want bad behaviour new or old and you call me out on my behaviour more than anyone, so how can you even use that argument?
    – user3956566
    Commented May 25, 2018 at 14:07
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    I disagree, @YvetteColomb. Furthermore, blanket statements like that are always false.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 25, 2018 at 14:08
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    Why are you bringing up "us"? What does me disagreeing with you have to do with anything?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 25, 2018 at 14:09
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    No, what I'm saying is that site regulars are being accused of being unwelcoming all over meta, but newbies that don't care or can't handle criticism aren't even considered to be part of, or even at the root of, the problem. I am seeing a lot more comments being removed after the "welcoming" debacle. Comments that are, at their core, harmless. But someone was "offended", so it got flagged.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 25, 2018 at 14:13
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    @Cerbrus many of us have been unwelcoming. I went through my comment history on main and was yikes we may mean well, but we can't afford to mistreat people. It's so simple. It's not about compromising quality, it's about removing snark and sarcasm. It doesn't mean we say "there there it's ok" we just give constructive feedback in a respectable manner. It doesn't matter what the other person does, we cannot lower ourselves to that level. You know how you feel when I react? Well none of us can react on the main site and especially not collectively. Flag and walk away.
    – user3956566
    Commented May 25, 2018 at 14:15
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    Please don't presume to know how I feel when you react.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 25, 2018 at 14:17
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    Also, @YvetteColomb: "When not to comment.: 3. When someone is arguing with you." Please follow your own advice.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 25, 2018 at 14:19
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    @Cerbrus well clearly you're not ok with it. That's all the blog is attempting (albeit in a clucksy way) to say. That we can do better. It's not about shaming the community. Without the community there'd be no site. It's about taking stock, reflecting and asking, how can we improve. We have to, we're under public fire and the Network management is demanding it now. So it's something we need to work on as a team.
    – user3956566
    Commented May 25, 2018 at 14:19
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    Yes, my opinions are pretty clear. My feelings, on the other hand, are not something you can possibly be aware of.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 25, 2018 at 14:22
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    @duplode: And that's why I think an all-out ban on sarcasm is a bad thing.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 25, 2018 at 16:35
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    @Cerbrus, Nobody can ban sarcasm. In fact, neither is this possible, nor do I think this is what the community wants. But we can and should consider flagging where there is a mocking tone. It's easy to spot, usually the question is on -5, usually it's personal ("you" - not "this idea"), often it's a new user, sometimes there's an argument. I flag these as "Chatty, no longer required" rather than "Rude/Abusive".
    – jpp
    Commented May 25, 2018 at 16:38
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    @jpp: This answer is grouping sarcasm with "accusatory, snarky, or otherwise harmful" comments and saying those should be flagged. I'm just saying we should be a little more context-aware than that.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 25, 2018 at 16:40

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