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A short time ago, we introduced the new triage queue - a place where users can quickly sort questions into various categories, where one of those categories is 'needs improvement'. Until now, we've been alluding to a special place where questions that weren't quite ready for prime exposure could benefit from some of our more experienced users working closely with their authors. Today, we're happy to announce that this queue is now accessible, in a much earlier state than planned.

If you've got at least 2000 rep, please go say hello to The Help & Improvement Queue!

The new Help & Improvement Queue is a place for anyone that has the desire to help new users learn the ropes in the best way possible - by jumping in and taking some ownership in their experience as you teach them what makes questions great through your edits and helpful comments. Remember, questions in this queue have been selected because enough people thought they showed strong potential, but needed some work before they were ready for full visibility.

If you don't yet have enough rep, worry not - there's plenty of details and pictures to come.

Here's what we've done

We're targeting this queue for users that have the patience to gently help new users with great potential, while improving the overall quality of the site. You'll need to have a tad more than a bit of time to spend, since the work asked for in this queue is more than is asked for in the rest.

Upon entering, the queue presents you with a question identified as needing improvement, and any comments it might have. You have three possible paths to take:

  • Edit the question through a guided interface that helps to ensure strong substantive edits that really improve the question, along with putting an emphasis on the why behind the edits you made in order to help the author learn to write stronger questions.

  • Comment helpfully, and encouragingly if the question seems to be missing something that only the author could know which prevents any responsible attempt at editing.

  • Skip to the next question to work on if this one simply isn't the best question for you.

Let's have a look at it, starting with the first thing that you see when you enter the queue and are given a post to work on:

Your choice - edit, skip, just leave a comment

We surface comments here because they quite often contain bits of information that are valuable to editors. New users all too often receive a comment asking for clarification, and reply with a comment instead of editing - you'll have the full context.

Comment moderation tools are also active, if you see noise that needs to be cleaned up it's easy to flag. Let's take a look at what you'll see when you click edit:

That's a lot of editing guidance condensed in that side bar!

That's... not your average editor! We really need substantive edits on questions in this queue, and so we designed the interface to lend to that. Let's look at what's interesting:

  • 'Just in time' help that changes as you move from field to field. This works like a checklist that even experienced editors can appreciate. It's all the guidance we've ever given on how to make great edits in an extremely condensed form, where you see just what's relevant to the part of the post you're currently editing.

  • You edit the body first, because that's generally what you need to do in order to come up with ideas for a better title and possibly more tags, which come next in order.

  • We ask you to explain why you edited the way that you did in a comment that will be left on the question and copied to the edit summary. This is your opportunity to teach someone the fine nuances of asking questions by mentioning how a clear and descriptive title will help them get better answers sooner. Don't worry, we provide some examples.

  • The summary is also a very useful way to ask folks for more information when needed, if you're able to make other improvements to the question. Let them know what you fixed, tell them what else is needed. Good things happen when others see us taking constructive ownership in their questions.

This queue is mutually exclusive, no two reviewers are going to be given the same post to work on. Additional features to address common frustrations when editing are planned soon.

Here's what we need from you

As I mentioned, we're making this available a bit sooner in its development cycle than we would normally make something of this significance available to test. We're extremely excited about what we have, but please expect it to be rough around the edges. We're looking for feedback on ways that the interface could be more optimized for the time you're willing to give, and any ideas to make it better.

While the focus of the interface is strongly on editing, the focus of the queue is to help a selection of mostly new users that will probably go on to ask great questions once they learn the ropes. Editing is of course the best way to do this, but we're putting equal emphasis on teaching.

Here's what we still have planned

There are other things that need to go into this. Here's a short but not necessarily exhaustive list that touches on most of them:

  • It should be easier to up-vote something after you save an edit. That was in the first design, and will be going back in, similar to how it works in other queues.

  • We should have an additional progress indicator that lets you know when questions you've previously edited managed to do well, because feeling good about helping new users while helping the overall quality of the site is what this is about.

  • There will be special badges awarded when questions you've edited have gone on to do well - based on votes, answers, and votes on answers that they subsequently received. We need to collect some data before defining the actual mechanics, but we're currently taking suggestions for names - bronze silver and gold.

  • The side bar help will have an 'expert' mode of some kind once you've done a certain number of edits in the queue. This could be where we'll track questions that you helped do well by editing - still a bit up in the air.

Go give it a try and see what you think. Remember, these are users that came to us with relatively good questions on their first or second try. With a little help and encouragement, they're very likely to be the kinds of users that we really hope decide to stick around. It's easy to tell someone what they did wrong; it's harder to make them want to do it better. Teaching is very much what's needed and what we're working to encourage.

This queue is currently available only on Stack Overflow, however we do have plans to enable it everywhere once finished and thoroughly tested.

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  • 94
    Given that "needs improvement" seems to be feeding this, would it be feasible to have a 4th option in triage of "needs improvement that only the person asking can provide" so not as to put these questions in front of the help and improvement reviewers? There seems to be misunderstood or conflicting guidance about what is needs improvement and what is unsalvageable otherwise.
    – user289086
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 17:41
  • 45
    Any reason why the close and flag links weren't kept as options?
    – j08691
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 17:41
  • 8
    @j08691: My guess is if something is in this queue, it's presumably not close- or flag-worthy. But I can see why there may be a need to whisk away questions that don't belong yet wind up here.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 17:44
  • 14
    I can't wait to see how many new revisions will turn up with a summary along the lines of "Explain why your edits have improved this question. Also suggest any additional changes needed, and explain why they would be useful. Always be polite."
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 17:46
  • 16
    Wow @j08691, check this out - 2 minutes in and here's an example of a question in this new queue that should be closed.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 17:49
  • 9
    @BoltClock - My point exactly. I've come across several already. I think those two links should be surfaced in this new queue.
    – j08691
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 17:52
  • 5
    @BoltClock is it possible to dig into the triage review on these posts and help figure out if reviewers are just being reluctant to close/flag? or if they believe that this is something that is salvageable? If the majority of the posts in this queue should be closed first, then maybe a bit of retrospective on the triage queue would be in order - guidance on closing and workflow (needs improvement and close?).
    – user289086
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 17:54
  • 9
    Is there any chance a filter by tag option will be added to this queue like some of the other queues?
    – skrrgwasme
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 17:54
  • 7
    I recall that there is some threshold when an item is presented to one user it is not shown to others. I've started editing but someone else was quicker...that is not a good experience...
    – rene
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 17:54
  • 7
    Are posts that are edited/commented on in this queue pushed out of the queue immediately afterwards, or are they then sent to other users for review?
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 18:11
  • 4
    @Ben for an answer, one could open a post in a separate browser window / tab. If answering was expected to be a frequent / typical action in this queue, I could understand your "why"... but it isn't is it?
    – gnat
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 18:33
  • 4
    Other than two lowercase "i"s, I'm not sure why this is in the queue: stackoverflow.com/review/helper/7249045. I suppose I could edit it to fix the two lower "i"s, but... woo? Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 19:42
  • 29
    Also, a lot of these questions are absolutely brutal; short of a crystal ball, there's no way to improve these questions. Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 19:50
  • 16
    There is so much crap in this queue that I seriously miss the close and flag buttons. Closure stats for questions in this queue would be interesting, IMO.
    – Palec
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 10:45
  • 4
    There are similar comments and answers, but I think the one thing we can all take away from this is given these "needs improvement" questions are feeding from that triage option, then we should probably be making more liberal use of "unsalvageable" and posting a close vote for "unclear" or other appropriate reason. Seems a waste to move to another queue and then want to issue a close vote. I'm guilty as are others of doing "fast Triage" where the "edits/improvements" are really up to the OP and not someone else.
    – Neil Lunn
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 11:10

29 Answers 29

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Remember, these are users that came to us with relatively good questions on their first or second try.

Those are four of the first five questions I got in the queue. I kept skipping, and I kept getting more of the same. I no longer have a desire to help or improve in this queue. :(

Triage's Should Be Improved is obviously missing the mark here. I called this out back when that queue was introduced. I also pointed out that it's unreasonably difficult to close questions in Triage, meaning more low quality question end up here now.

What's feeding this queue needs to be improved, and this queue needs a feedback button: No, this doesn't need improvement, it's just bad

This queue needs to be improved on a fundamental, not functional, level before I would consider spending much of my time there. I can't test the editing features mentioned in the post if I can't find things I want to edit.

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  • 22
    was going to post the same thing: 7 out of the first 7 I saw needed to be closed etc. e.g: stackoverflow.com/review/helper/7248204, or stackoverflow.com/review/helper/7248169 or stackoverflow.com/review/helper/7248137 - make it an even 10 out of 10 Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 17:38
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    "relatively good" is... relative.
    – Shog9
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 17:43
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    I put a 'doesn't belong here' button into the design three times. We're going to take a look at narrowing what triage sends to it. "I used this for 5 minutes and will never use it again" - harsh.
    – user50049
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 17:48
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    Ah yeah, misinterpreted you, sorry :) So yeah, there's going to be a 'doesn't belong here' button of some sort. Skipping will do that, posts can't hang around in this forever or we just have an elephant, but there's more deliberate signal to put to use when someone says "Yeah no, this one isn't worth it."
    – user50049
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 17:53
  • 45
    I went 8 for 8 on wishing I could close. The "needs improvement" from Triage seems to imply ( and this is the way I use it ) that the OP must provide more details, such as requested in comments. It doesn't make the question editable by a 3rd party because a few more details are needed, but not necessarily enough for an "Unclear what you're asking" Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 17:59
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    @MichaelBerkowski: How does it not deserve closing as unclear if a few more detaills by the OP are needed? I mean, that's what that close-reason is for! Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 18:09
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    @MichaelBerkowski If you can comment and wait 5 minutes before closing, you are welcome to do so to preserve your votes for more worthy prey. But don't not close because it only just doesn't meet the minimum standards. Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 18:16
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    @MichaelBerkowski They just need a small point of clarification from an engaged OP. Keep in mind lots and lots of questions don't actually end up getting that. And if they do edit it, then the question is unlikely to attract it's 5th close vote, or if it does, it'll easily get reopened. However, leaving an unanswerable question unclosed because the OP just might come back tomorrow, or the next day, or next month, to answer the one simple question that would make the question answerable, is a problem.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 18:19
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    @Servy Disagree - The Triage button is called "unsalvageable". A question answerable with a small investment either from the community or the OP is by definition not unsalvageable. Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 18:22
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    @MichaelBerkowski It's not salvageable by the community. Going out of your way to push it to a queue where community members can edit it when they can't actually fix the problems is not productive. You're just filling the queue up with items that everyone will be forced to skip.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 18:38
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    I'm pretty sure the "Should Be Improved" help text says the question needs edits "by the asker or others" (or similar; I can't see it right now because I've done my 20 triage reviews for the day). I think Triage needs four buttons (ok, community edit, close until OP edits, delete) instead. Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 18:54
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    @JeffreyBosboom Or it could just label the three buttons that it does have correctly, "OK", "can be edited by the community", "close". Those are what the buttons do now, they're just mis-labeled in such a way as to result in people taking actions that aren't appropriate for the post.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 18:57
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    I suspect the "Unsalvageable" button gets under-used because it takes five clicks (all over the screen) to vote to close something as off-topic, vs. a single click to use any of the other three buttons. And possibly also because you can use the Triage queue when you're out of close votes, and mark things "Should be improved" that really deserve to be closed.
    – nobody
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 19:08
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    ^ This is a serious issue. Also @MichaelBerkowski "that is not close-worthy" It actually is on-hold-worthy, which is achieved through close voting; it just uses different verbiage to append to the question title.
    – TylerH
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 19:18
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    honestly, I used "should be improved" for stuff that the OP should have improved. Had I known that this was thew use of the triage queue, I would've acted differently. I managed to get 1 question to act on in 10 skips.... I think the triage queue should be cleared on what will happen for each button
    – Patrice
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 19:22
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I just finished my 20 reviews for today (the fourth person!) and I can sum up my thoughts on the new queue pretty quickly.

In theory, it's a great queue that will allow questions that can be improved to create a clear, understandable question be improved. In reality, it's full of badly triaged questions.

So here are my quick suggestions, read the first line of the bullets and decide if you want to read the reasoning

  1. Allow questions to be pushed back to the triage queue

    Right now it's common for questions to be pushed into this queue when they really shouldn't be in the queue. I found a 30/70 mix of unsalvageable/clear questions and questions that needed editing. For the clear questions, I could easily make a small edit that rewords some parts and push it out of the queue. But for the unsalvageable questions, it might be better if they got another run through triage instead of being constantly skipped.

  2. Posts aren't locked for long enough

    At least twice I ran into situations where another person got a smaller edit in before mine went through. I spent a while on improving questions, at least five minutes but usually more than that, and I would have hated to see my edits be reverted by a smaller edit that came afterwards.

  3. Edit summaries should be separated from comments

    Luckily I read the warnings on here before I started reviewing posts, so I didn't make any short comments. But when I'm usually editing I make small edit summaries that clearly identify the major problems, and then leave a much friendlier comment on the question. This is so the post history points out why/what I had to edit and the comment explains it at a much broader level to educate the asker.

  4. We should see a summary after we finalize the edit

    At least twice I finished up edits, reviewed everything and gave it a better title with tags, and then hit the finish button. And as the request was going on through, only then did I realize that I had missed something, or my grammar was off. We have a grace period for this reason, and it should help editors take a final review to appreciate the good work that they've put in.

  5. Apparently not many people know how to triage

    It's true, both you and I don't know how to triage questions. Tim recently cleared up some confusion between "Should be improved" and "Unsalvageable" which was incredibly useful for me. It's clear from the votes on the question and answer that the triage descriptions are ambiguous, and because of that people push questions into this new queue that shouldn't be there. Perhaps the help in the Triage queue should be improved to point to that link, at the very least?

  6. This queue needs some more filtering

    (tracking answer)

    While most people can spot a bad question, and a lot of questions can be easily improved by just looking at the grammar and rewording it to make it more clear, heavy editing requires domain knowledge. The close queue has the same issue, which is why it is helpful that you can filter down by tags. Without this, it's going to be a lot of skipping until I find a question where I am familiar with their environment and can comfortably edit it such that the question could be answered.

  7. The Triage queue needs to be improved before the Help & Improvement queue can be enjoyable

    (tracking answer)

    Many of my skips weren't spent on questions that were out of my territory, but on questions which didn't need a lot of improvement or couldn't be improved. We've established that there are a bunch of bad questions in this queue, but it's not the fault of the Help & Improvement queue. The problem lies in the Triage queue, where many of the questions fall on the line of two options. So if someone looks at a question and decides that it can be improved with some more details, they might hit "Should be improved". But then the question ends up in this new queue, where the question can't be improved by an editor.

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    Yeah Tim's answer is super helpful. I agree that it should be more accessible to triage reviewers.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 23:10
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    Thanks for taking the time to test and write this up. I've made sure all of the points made their way into our scope for the next update to the queue.
    – user50049
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 14:40
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    "Edit summaries should be separated from comments" Yes.
    – Brian
    Commented Mar 10, 2015 at 21:01
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    I think this is dead on, particularly your points about Triage. Most of my review tasks in Help and Improvement end up getting flagged since they never should have left triage in the first place. I find I can't add much value other here other than repeatedly flag questions for closing and that in and of itself is a huge problem.
    – David L
    Commented Apr 10, 2015 at 16:23
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A few notes from my own pre-release testing that might be helpful to other reviewers:

  • This queue is hard. These posts may be salvageable, but an awful lot of them need some serious love: extracting the author's problem from a mess of rambling, incomplete or straight-up contradictory explanations and code can be quite a challenge all on its own... And then you need to use that info to write a good question. If you're planning on blowing through 20 reviews in 20 minutes, think again - if you do that, you're missing something. Probably the title.

  • No one writes good titles. That's why we put the title edit field after the body - so you'd get to it after having read the body. Think it looks ok? You're probably wrong. Edit it to say something useful.

  • No one picks good tags either. Not the author, and probably not you. Do your best though; you have some experience at least.

  • That comment field where the revision summary normally goes? It's an actual comment field. Y'know, for talking to the author. This is your chance to go from playing nursemaid to being an educator, helping folks who are struggling to grok how Stack Overflow works to learn the ropes. Think of it as orientation at Stack Overflow Academy - better show folks where the bathrooms are before they end up pissing all over the halls.

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    Can we please, please, pretty f'ing please have a way to tell the OP to be attentive to their post some how? Comments and extractions are often wasted by someone who asks and runs off.
    – Travis J
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 19:03
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    One add-on to this: If you find this queue isn't for you, it may still make your life better even though you go nowhere near it. As long as some others are willing to dig in and work with folks that need some help, it'll essentially to help get posts that need some love to those who enjoy that, and move them away from where others prefer to focus on more polished questions to answer until they're in tip-top shape.
    – Jaydles Staff
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 19:05
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    The plan is to show a polite banner to the author next to every question that ends up in this queue, @Travis. So if you don't feel you can do anything useful by commenting... Don't. As for the folks who post and run... There's no helping them; they aren't here. No sense worrying about them, really; if they keep it up, they'll end up isolated and eventually banned.
    – Shog9
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 19:06
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    @Shog9 - I comment all the time to try to explain why a question may not be being well received or to ask for clarifications. I just think that with this new feature now increasing the rate at which this happens, and from past experience of doing it often, extra notification would really benefit the author and those willing to include some comments. I like the idea of a polite banner (any idea on the text of it?)
    – Travis J
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 19:08
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    Nope - I trust Tim to write it, @Travis - he's very polite.
    – Shog9
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 19:08
  • @Shog9 - Can you poke him to include the word "attentive"? :) Or is that too direct. Either way, Tim does have a skill at eloquence.
    – Travis J
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 19:09
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    @TravisJ, Tim wants to rephrase that as "Either way, Tim is eloquent." :P
    – Jaydles Staff
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 19:11
  • @Shog9 There's always: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/196744/…
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 20:07
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Some notes on this, a few of which duplicate what others have pointed out in answers / comments - but it's kind of nice to have this all in one place.

We're not as done with Triage as we thought

  • There's a combination of too much confusion as to what 'unsalvageable' means, and possibly a little too much friction involved in selecting that option. It's feeding too much low quality stuff here.

Editing pains are more of a pain than anticipated

  • While we do prevent two reviewers from working on the same post, edits from outside of the queue are a pretty rampant problem. A holistic fix is to provide review and merge tools when someone saves an edit on something you're editing. An interim fix might be to just lock posts while someone from this queue is working on them.

It's not as intuitive as we thought

  • We need to make it clearer that the comment on save is actually really important, and that you'll be leaving an actual comment to the author of the post that is also copied to the revision history.

  • The just-in-time help isn't as prominent as we thought. This needs to be fixed, but not to the point that it becomes annoying.

Eject button needed

  • Even after making tweaks to triage, there probably needs to be some means to say "this really just doesn't belong in this queue". We have to be careful with that, because some people hate anything that isn't up to a level of quality and interest that is almost unattainable by new users.

Where'd my thing go?

  • Our next push was going to be showing you the edited post in all its awesomeness, access to voting, a convenient way to go answer the question if you want to, and some stats on how posts you've edited previously have done in the weeks since you worked on them. Nothing broken there except it's not built yet.

Tag Filtering

  • Also in the original design, planned, soon.

Thank you!

Thank you to everyone that took some time to give this a spin. As you can see, we have a lot of moving pieces going on here, and we simply arrived to the point where we spent more time speculating as to how folks would use / react to things than we did building. At that point, it just made sense to open it up and let everyone at it - even in a very early state.

We're going to get back to our work benches, poke it with some wrenches and start pushing builds pretty regularly for the majority of the next week.

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  • Yay, these fixes are kitteh approved! Can't wait for the queue to be mildly usable.
    – bjb568
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 3:48
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    @bjb568 This is what we really needed in order to get to that point. It was a choice - ship what we have, or talk about how folks might 'theoretically' do stuff with it for another month. When in doubt, ship. When not in doubt, ship. Basically, always ship.
    – user50049
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 5:24
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    I don't think there was any doubt that incoming questions aren't being triaged properly though.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 5:47
  • 3
  • Wouldn't then edit summary become a place for welcome messages? I don't feel professional when adding words like Welcome to Stack Overflow!, Good luck! to the edit summary. On the other hand I would like to welcome the user. And it would be good to filter out posts like this where the user's account is already deleted (which led to possible spam identification?), but that would solve the Eject button.
    – TLama
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 8:53
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    I was with you until you wrote "some people hate anything that isn't up to a level of quality and interest that is almost unattainable by new users" - as demonstrated by many answers and comments here as well as many other posts about the triage queue, many people do not close even the most crappy questions, especially when OP is new. You even state yourself that too much low quality stuff is passing through triage un-closed. I don't see any reason to worry about people suddenly closing too many good questions in a queue primarily meant for editing.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 12:16
  • @l4mpi Didn't mean that to be a jab. The people I'm describing are almost never found participating here on Meta. I mentioned it specifically because I wanted to point out there's a case to account for which .. isn't like most people here, at all. I'm not worrying about pretty much everyone that helped to test this, but we have to account for the much larger group, is all.
    – user50049
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 14:00
  • @BoltClock Actually we didn't think it was going to be as big of an issue as it turned out to be. Shog, Geoff and I have been religiously sampling posts folks have processed through triage and the accuracy has been quite high, but that's the problem with narrow random sampling. We knew someone would point out that they saw the occasional question that really didn't belong, we had no idea it was going to be the major complaint.
    – user50049
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 14:03
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    @l4mpi: That doesn't mean those people don't exist. Two separate extremes here.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 16:32
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    @BoltClock the post describes it as if we had a problem with too many people closing and deleting genuinely good content. IMO, the exact opposite is the case. I don't see any need to be extra specially careful in adding a close button to the improvement queue, when apparently most people doing triage have a hard time finding the close button there.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 16:39
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The main problem with this queue, mentioned in some comments here, is that in many posts there is some crucial information missing that you just can't make up.

A proposed solution is to add a possibility to put additional information from the OP needed: (description of what is missing) sections/boxes/whatever to the post, that would somehow stand out, and each of them would possibly cause a notification to the OP.

Example:

Original post

The following code:

Console.WriteLine(new X().GetString());

throws an exception, please halp!

Edited post

The following code:

<bold red blinking> Please add the definition of X </bold red blinking>

Console.WriteLine(new X().GetString());

throws an exception:

<bold red blinking> Please specify what exception is being thrown </bold red blinking>

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    I don't think putting the notes in the actual post is ideal[citation needed], but other than that I do agree that something needs to be done to deal with the distinction between "needs TLC from a patient editor" and "needs OP to explain what on earth they were going on about". Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 6:29
  • @NathanTuggy Does this suggestion help? Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 12:27
29

edit

In addition to my comment below this post "Alternatives would be splitting the Should Be Improved button into "Requires More Information" (which would imply only the author could edit it into shape), and "Needs Community Improvement" (which would send it to the Improvement Queue)."

Perhaps it could look like this:

enter image description here


Original Post

My experience..

Looks bad, can't close though? Hm, no saving this. Skip

...Skip

...Skip

...Skip

...empty =/

Second try!

https://stackoverflow.com/review/helper/7249046

enter image description here

Not sure this is going to get any better with editing. Most of the answer is "it depends", and without more context it is hard to determine what is going on. I have spent so much time asking and waiting on OPs for more information in the past that it has really damaged my ability to believe they will respond themselves. I mean, here we are as a community already looking to fix even simple misspellings and grammatical. ERRORS. in their, interestingingly typed wrdings.

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  • 14
    So that's how the queue went from 600 to 0 in twenty minutes flat. Everyone's skipping everything.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 18:31
  • 1
    @BoltClock Does skipping it (or enough skips, like 4/5) remove it from the queue?
    – TylerH
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 18:34
  • 5
    @TylerH: Dunno - I was just making a lame joke.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 18:35
  • 2
    Seems like people don't realize just commenting handles it (or at least thats how I read the original post). If you need the OP to clarify, leave a comment. Of course if its just crap, thats another story. Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 18:36
  • Most of what I saw required more context from the author. I only went through 4 posts until the queue was empty.
    – Travis J
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 18:45
  • 2
    @BoltClock - Does skipping remove it? I was mostly looking for posts which at least had one of the tags I frequent.
    – Travis J
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 18:47
  • 11
    At least in tags I am familiar with I can be a mind reader, which is what this queue seems to be for from my experience. [Requires Mind Reading].
    – Travis J
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 18:48
  • 13
    YES! @Travis gets it! We should rename this to "Psychic Friends Review Queue"
    – Shog9
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 19:50
  • 9
    @Shog9 when working tech support at ${tech company}, we discovered that everyone who called us wanted 2 of 3: tech support, psychic help, phone sex (the woman that got that one transferred it to her manager to deal with (while rebooting his machine he asked her "what are you wearing?")). On the other hand, I did get a call: "Hello, this is Michael, how may I help you?" was responded with "what is my problem?" - It was a very curious phone call... I'm still not sure he was even using our product other than there was a paid up support contract.
    – user289086
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 19:57
  • 2
  • 1
    We're considering a two part fix for this, the first obviously being better guidance in triage. The second is likely going to come in some form of 'eject' button in the helper queue where you can indicate something just doesn't belong there. But, before we do #2, seeing these posts in the helper queue should be a bit of a rarity, so #1 is really the first thing we're pointing to.
    – user50049
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 14:36
  • 5
    @TimPost - Those are good ideas (and I like your answer summary here as well). WRT triage, since everything here starts at "Should Be Improved", and since some people are hopeless romantics with a Utopian view that everything capable of improving should be improved, is the word "should" the right word to use here? Unsure, throwing it out there. Alternatives would be splitting the Should Be Improved button into "Requires More Information" (which would imply only the author could edit it into shape), and "Needs Community Improvement" (which would send it to the Improvement Queue).
    – Travis J
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 15:44
  • 1
    I've got to think about it. "Needs more information" doesn't necessarily mean that it can't be edited, with a note on what else is needed left in the comment. I like how this differentiates between something that is just awful and something where someone just forgot to post a config, but I'm not convinced that a lack of what's needed to answer is also a lack of what's needed to edit. Good stuff, you've explored something that quite a few have raised - I'm going to look at this after we've fixed the more glaring (but fortunately low-hanging) things.
    – user50049
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 16:44
  • 2
    @TimPost - Thanks :) Also, I really like how the featured posts are getting these tags edited in them (here and on MSE also). It is a good way to give feedback imo.
    – Travis J
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 16:46
  • 1
    "needs more information" += "from asker" - this way, it would be really hard to misinterpret
    – gnat
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 18:39
26

(the scope of this post is big, see comments)

Status

  1. Better controls
  • I still think we need more than two options to handle posts that shouldn't be in this queue (or, if we're not getting more, just go into the edit automatically and provide a Skip button somewhere).
  1. Posts aren't locked while editing in the review queue
  • This was a bug, but it's still an issue if someone decides to edit outside of the queue; can we get a lock there, too (like with suggested edits)?
  1. Takes a long time
  • This is by design, and there isn't really a solution to this.
  1. Example edit summary is too long
  • Okay, so technically, it's not too long for a comment, but these are being used for edit summaries as well, so I'm considering this half-fixed.
  1. Feedback from edit summaries?
  • Edit summaries are no longer required in the H&I queue.
  1. Edit summaries -> comments
  • An option here (like a checkbox) would be nice, but I'm not as concerned now that these are no longer required.
  1. #6 isn't obvious
  1. People aren't using Triage correctly
  • This really needs fixing; it's discouraging a lot of people from using the queue.

I really like this queue. It's a great way to help fix up posts and get the necessary information out of the asker so that their question is ready to be answered, and it saves a lot of clarifying time later that could be used for answering the question.

However, there are, I think, few problems:

  1. To Edit, or not to edit? That is the question.
  • I don't like the way that the controls are handled. If our only option is to edit or skip, why not just start it off editing and add a Skip button?
  • However, I think there is a problem there: why should we be only able to skip? By skipping, we're doing nothing to help it get out of the queue, when a lot of them don't belong there. As others have mentioned, there are a lot of questions that simply don't belong in this queue (they don't need editing) because someone was out of close votes and couldn't choose "unsalvageable" or simply because they didn't think that it was justifiable to say "Looks OK." We should be able to say "Looks OK" or "Unsalvageable" from within this queue, and if two others agree (or one edits in the intervening time), it's out.
  1. Posts aren't locked while you're editing.
  1. Editing posts takes a long time (if you're doing it right).
  • This makes the queue substantially different from the others; it's much more than simply pressing a few buttons, voting, picking reasons from a dialog, and/or adding a comment. Editing each post substantially and deciding whether a given post needs an edit at all takes time. I found that it took me a little over half an hour to hit the 20-post limit.
  • While I don't think this is necessarily a problem, I can see how it could cause some problems and how these problems may lead to low participation and, therefore, a buildup in the queue, which may need some handling mechanism later.
  1. The example edit summary doesn't fit.
  • You're given guidance on the right side pertaining to how to use the queue. When you get to the edit summary, you're given this example:

    Welcome to Stack Overflow! I edited the title of your question to include the name of the function you're calling, so more people with knowledge of the subject will see it. I also indented your code sample by 4 spaces so that it renders properly - please see the editing help for more information on formatting. Please edit in the specific error-message you're encountering in case that's necessary to identify the specific problem. Good luck!

     This is 143 characters over the limit for edit summaries.
    
  1. We're supposed to give feedback...from edit summaries?
  • The queue suggests that we provide feedback in the form of edit summaries by adding suggestions along with our changes.
    • I'm not sure that this is the best place to do this, as new users rarely look at the revision histories of their posts (or at least that's what I've seen).
  • While we're at it, why are summaries required?
    • They're not required for 2k+ users on question pages and other queues, so why are they required here? (Just curious about the specific reason - I understand it's probably to make the edits more useful.)
      • I found myself using less and less useful edit summaries as I progressed through the queue, particularly when I had no feedback to give to the user.
      • This is even more of an issue than I thought; I didn't realize that these edit summaries are actually posted as comments, as well (see #6).
  1. (Required) Edit summaries are turned into comments.
  • I can understand why the edit summaries would be required (see #5), but why are they automatically turned into comments? Sure they can be useful when you have some criticism to add:

Clarified and fixed some formatting issues; consider including some more code and being a bit more specific about your problem.

But is this really useful as a comment?

Grammar & formatting fixes.

  1. It isn't evident that edit summaries are posted as comments.
  • At first glance, they just look like regular old edit summaries, and I just realized, after visiting this post and doing the daily 20 reviews, that the edit summaries you provide are automatically posted as comments.
  • Can we do one of these?
    • Don't post them as comments (although this may contribute to problems outlined in #5).
    • Make it more evident that you're actually posting a comment with your edit summary. This doesn't make that clear (and this isn't that obvious even if it did):

    Summarize your edit in a comment

  1. The Triage queue is being used improperly.
  • It appears that people are not too fond of the "Unsalvageable" option, so they're choosing "Should Be Improved" if it doesn't fit quality standards, which launches it into this queue.
    • This is a problem, especially if we have no way of removing items from the queue other than editing them.
    • Is it because you have to sift through a bunch of menus instead of clicking one button?
    • Is it because "Unsalvageable" is too strong of a word?
    • Is it because the description for "Should Be Improved" suggests that edits from the OP can improve the post even though putting it in H&I does not help this cause?

    Should Be Improved for questions that would benefit from further revision by the author or others

    • Whatever, the cause, this is something that, if fixed, could really benefit the queue.
      • Maybe change the wording for the suggestion of Should Be Improved (if people care enough to read it)?
      • I think changing it from "Unsalvageable" to something less scary would result in better handling in Triage. To kill two birds (this and the cumbersomeness of navigating through the flag menu to get to the close menu) with one stone, perhaps it would be a good idea to separate "Unsalvageable" into two separate "Close" and "Flag" buttons?

Also, are audits planned for this queue? If so, how will they be done if our only non-skip option is to edit? Whether to edit something is usually a pretty subjective matter.

15
  • 2
    No problem at all in being your test-dummy...
    – rene
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 18:14
  • To point #3, as is said in the question, that's very much by design. It's expected that reviewing in this queue will take much more work per item than other queues. As for the backlog, that's what will end up making how items are priorities much more important. It's very clear that there are way more posters that need their hand held than people willing to hold their hand. Part of this is on triage, to only send posts to NI that both need the help, but are likely to actually benefit from the time, and also on some form of prioritization within the queue.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 18:16
  • It's basically by design in this queue that all of the items sent to it won't actually be handled; some are simply going to age out. There's just too much content needing improvement and too few people really willing to put in the time to fix it for that to be avoidable. So the interesting questions will come in deciding which questions should age out, and which should get extra attention.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 18:17
  • 10
    Posts are supposed to be locked - we screwed up and added a huge number of duplicate tasks, which inadvertently put 2-3 editors on each post simultaneously. Should be fixed now.
    – Shog9
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 18:41
  • 3
    Indeed, if I were to come upon a comment like Grammar & formatting fixes. outside of THIQ (Short for The Help and Improvement Queue, pronounced "thick"), I would flag it for deletion 9 times out of 10.
    – TylerH
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 18:48
  • 5
    Re: 5,6,7 - the box is called "comment" and looks like a comment field... But clearly, we dropped the ball on communicating what it does. I'm thinking we need to be showing the results of your review before moving you to the next one - that'd give you immediate feedback on what the comment field does, as well as giving you a chance to see your edit "live" (which I, personally, really want since I always miss something when editing).
    – Shog9
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 19:15
  • 1
    @Shog9 You're right; I was thinking of the title field (I hadn't looked at the queue since I used up all of my reviews). My issue is with the wording "Summarize your edit in a comment" – I thought that that was just a way of explaining what an edit summary does and that you guys were trying to expand what edit summaries are used for (it doesn't help that I've seen "edit comment" used interchangeably with "edit summary," which is probably what made me ignore the "comment" part of that phrase).
    – AstroCB
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 19:39
  • 3
    Good call, @Astro - let's change that to "Explain your edit in a comment."
    – Shog9
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 19:48
  • Also, I'm pretty sure #4 only applies if you're pasting that example into the title field.
    – Shog9
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 19:52
  • @Shog9 The edit summary limit is 300 characters and that example is 443 characters long.
    – AstroCB
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 19:54
  • Right, but it's well under the length limit for comments, @AstroCB. The edit summary merely reflects a truncated version of the comment.
    – Shog9
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 20:02
  • @Shog9 Oh, right: I forgot that I wrote this before I found out that that field was for comments.
    – AstroCB
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 20:03
  • 2
    Re audits: Tim's already mentioned future plans to display the outcomes of the questions you've edited; perhaps audit bans can be replaced by consistent-poor-outcome bans? Though maybe that would scare people into skipping any question that isn't already in good shape. Commented Mar 7, 2015 at 22:40
  • 3
    Another audit idea: add "thanks in advance!!!" and other noise to the end of posts and ensure it is removed. If you don't remove that, you clearly didn't read the post. Commented Mar 8, 2015 at 18:10
  • @JeffreyBosboom I like that idea, but I'm afraid it would come under some controversy, as people are very particular about what to keep/remove from a question, and editing in itself is quite subjective.
    – AstroCB
    Commented Mar 8, 2015 at 18:11
21

Aside from what everyone has already posted about the queue and ironing out some of the issues with the quality of what's fed in to it, I had a thought about how reviewer feedback is presented to the OP.

It's not been clarified exactly how the OP will be informed about these "special edits", by the sounds of things, it will just be a regular notification and comment. If the message is just posted as a regular comment, I feel that there will be a greater chance of it being ignored or watered down by other comments.

Could we consider a method to highlight comments from a reviewer, that has likely spent more time looking at the post.

First things that come to mind:

  1. Highlighting reviewer comments for the OP only (or all) so it draws their attention permanently:

enter image description here

  1. Make the reviewer / commentator name more official in the comment, so the user may pay more attention to the comment, possibly "Community" / "Community Helper", perhaps even a icon (I picked the heart to show love!):

enter image description here

  1. Or the extreme, have a bar above question only visible to the OP that states it has had a revision with feedback from a community member, which links to the review / comment / changes:

enter image description here

5
  • 12
    I am a fan of option 3. It keeps the noise of the feedback from appearing to everyone. It also trains new users on other aspects of the site (where to look for edits, encourages them to edit their post with more information, and is more eye catching at the top of the question than buried in the comments)
    – Andy Mod
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 13:15
  • 4
    The option 3 is great! That would nicely resolve messing the clarification comments with those from reviewers.
    – TLama
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 13:18
  • 6
    I'm going to look into this, possibly to the extent of special placement. If it doesn't result in Geoff Dalgas looking at me as the color leaves his face which he then holds in his hands as he sighs .... tim ...., I'm going to push for it.
    – user50049
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 14:24
  • 1
    I hit on this in my answer as well. I like all of these options more than the current functionality. Commented Mar 11, 2015 at 22:16
  • hey @TimPost how did the "push" go?
    – Tanner
    Commented Mar 13, 2015 at 11:00
18

I'm excited about this. I love editing, and making it easier for me to find questions worth editing makes me happy.

There's one glaring problem for me right now, though. This queue, maybe more than any other, has got to have tag filters. Expert knowledge is required when doing this kind of work. I, as someone whose areas of competency mostly revolve around Apple OSes, am not going to be much use trying to make "strong substantive edits" on a "relatively good" question that needs "a little help and encouragement".

The first several questions I just looked through were indeed pretty good. So good, in fact, that I wasn't really sure what I should do with them. One may not have fully specified the problem; another perhaps had an irrelevant tag. I don't really know. It looks like the kind of editing that happens in this queue is going to be more subtle stuff: less salvage, more touch-up. That means putting it in front of someone who understands the material and is capable of cutting away fluff and filling in holes.

1
  • 2
    We have this in the design, it just didn't ship with this initial test version. Coming soon, as in very soon, we promise!
    – user50049
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 14:38
17

It's not clear that the comment box where you put your summary of changes is going to be actually posted as a comment on the question. I interpreted the instructions as if it were just a useful edit summary with guided instructions (something actual edit summaries could use by the way). Already, other users have also left comments via the new system phrased as if they were edit summaries.

If possible, could you add some explicit verbiage to the box? Something along the lines of "This message will be left as a comment on the question."

14

Piggy-backing on my previous answer, and the answer by TylerH, I have a question about this:

Comment moderation tools are also active, if you see noise that needs to be cleaned up it's easy to flag.

Are the comments added via this queue useful in the long term? As I've skipped through many review so far, I've encountered comments like:

Grammar & formatting fixes. - Source

formatted text, clarified into list, removed unnecessary text - Source

Improved the text, added the c tag, added syntax coloring - Source

clarified the text into paragraphs, removed unnecessary thanks - Source

Removed thanks message. - Source

Those comments are helpful to the original poster, but seem noisy to be broadcast to everyone. Additionally, this information is presented to the user when an edit is suggested via the top bar. They have the option of viewing the information that way, without cluttering the question.

Are there plans to deal with these comments automatically? They can quickly become obsolete when the owner a.) sees them b.) uses the site and learns how to properly as a question c.) never returns.

6
  • 8
    It appears some users are using the comment purely as an edit summary. Maybe there should be a check box or something so leaving a comment isn't mandatory. (At first glance the comment appears to be mandatory.)
    – Radiodef
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 18:18
  • 1
    @Radiodef Indeed it is.
    – AstroCB
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 18:53
  • 1
    We're looking at treating these comments specially, more or less marking them as having come from this queue. If we can do that without a massive undertaking, then making these 'expire' after some time is probably fully within the realm of possibility.
    – user50049
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 14:38
  • @TimPost Maybe something like API write access labels? With "via Example App" replaced with "via Help & Improvement" linking to the individual review item (and perhaps also the triage review). Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 14:51
  • Or something like option 3 from Tanner's answer.
    – Andy Mod
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 15:49
  • Meh, I didn't know that it would become a comment, I just though that it was the regular edit summary. Commented Mar 7, 2015 at 4:25
14

Here's the very first item I encountered in the new queue. I'd say it's in the ballpark of a good fit for the helper queue and others have already addressed the issue of whether Triage is "leaking" close-worthy questions; I won't beat a dead horse.

Here's what I notice about the question in the first ~5 seconds, in roughly chronological order, and my reactions:

  1. Kind of a crappy title. I can usually fix this.
  2. Excel and VB, I'm reasonably familiar with those... Keep reading.
    1. Code? Yes. Keep reading.
    2. Code formatting is wrong. I can fix this!
  3. Oh god, the spelling is atrocious. I can fix this!
  4. Bad flow; block of text, block of code. I can usually fix this.
  5. "how can i do it pleas?" Uh oh. I can't fix this.

I'm a copy editor by nature. By the time I realize that this question, despite being clear enough to understand and including some code, is not very well scoped, I'm already preparing to overhaul the delivery. I'm in this queue because I want to fix things, and here are one, two, three, four things I can fix.

I can't close it from the queue, though it looks like it might be a duplicate (a cursory search turned up no likely candidate) and it might just be to broad (depends on the solution; this question, after all, created a useful artifact with even less to recommend it).

I'm also not the biggest fan of "skip early, skip often" as a panacea for review queue woes. Skipping is great for when you're not sure what to do but here, I have a pretty clear picture of a revision that substantially improves this question. If I came across it on the front page, I'd be able to jump right in and contribute that edit; thanks to the Triage process, the question now has extra visibility among users who want to help, myself included. But here's where we hit a road bump: By submitting the best edit I could, I knocked the item out of the queue, despite there still being issues that I feel warrant keeping this in the queue.

I think the exit condition for this queue needs more consideration. There are other situations where, despite not being able to fix every problem with the question, I can make very substantial improvements. Many users with subject matter expertise (SMEs) would rather spend their time applying that expertise than copy editing; I can make significant incremental improvements to a much wider range of questions than I could fix single-handedly. Even users who don't mind slogging through run-on sentences, textspeak, typos, etc. to get to the meat of a question have to expend some amount of time and effort to do it, and that's a drag.

Why not allow helpers to contribute what they can and move on, rather than forcing them to choose between being a superhero and ignoring obvious issues? I don't have to make that decision when browsing these questions normally.

I get that "too many cooks in the kitchen" may be a concern—someone adds a tag, someone else replaces it with a different one, someone removes one from the title, Someone Loves Title Case, How to stop people from putting question marks on titles that don't ask questions???—but is that an evidence-based concern, or is it just FUD? The improved edit interface for this queue is a step in the right direction and it could go even further, if necessary.

I understand why the ideal is for one user to take complete ownership of the revision that fixes the posts. But is that an achievable ideal, in terms of creating an effective queue where posts get attention quickly and reviewers feel they're accomplishing enough with their time that they want to keep doing it, long term?

The less time I have to spend skipping over things that I can only 90% fix, the more time I can spend fixing. The helper queue is already a bit of a departure from the typical review process; perhaps there's an opportunity here to bring more of that incremental, collaborative improvement philosophy, evident in the platform generally, into the review process. "More people leaving comments" feels more like an extra symptom than a solution, to me.

Bottom line: The less time reviewers have to spend doing tedious crap that they hate, but which a few weirdos like me actually enjoy, the better the experience for everyone. I'd like to be able to vote for questions to leave the helper queue once they've received all the help we can give, independently of my choice to contribute an edit so that helpers can focus on their strengths instead of having to do it all.

Let me suggest an analogy. When I was in college, I worked for a couple years at a small restaurant. It was one of the most satisfying work experiences I've ever had, and I'll tell you why: Every one of us focused on one thing we could do well, and we got to see people enjoying the results of our efforts. One guy on pizzas, one guy on sandwiches, the owner on entrees. Front of house, back of house, drivers.

Nobody in their right mind would run a restaurant that divides the labor by customer rather than by skill-set. I didn't knead the dough, the prep cooks didn't expedite deliveries, the drivers didn't take people's orders; we all did something we were really good at and our product was better for it. There's nothing revolutionary about this concept; can't we incorporate it better into the review process?

14
  • 2
    The problem with trying to have every reviewer do just a little bit is that everyone wants to just go and find easy problems that are trivially solved, and nobody wants to go and fix the hard stuff that actually takes time and effort, so the end result is that the queue is great at fixing tiny little things that don't really matter, but fails to actually fix significant problems and therefore add real value. Everyone just leaves the "real work" to everyone else, and nobody goes and actually does it. This queue exists for those people who are willing/able to put in the time to do the hard work.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 21:59
  • I acknowledge that could be a problem, but what reason do we have to assume it's insurmountable, other than cynicism? Off the top of my head, a strict threshold for what can be considered a substantive edit (and thus, allowed in the queue) could be explored.
    – Air
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 22:05
  • 2
    We know it'll be a problem because it's the exact same problem that every single other queue out there has. People always look for the way to do the least amount of work and still get credit for the review. People go to first/last posts and do nothing but vote. The queues were there in large part to do what this queue is doing; this queue is being created because people in those queues don't edit posts, they don't leave comprehensive comments targeted at the post in question. They just up/down vote and possibly flag spam, if you're lucky.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 22:11
  • This queue was created partly because those queues were failing to get people to take the tome to actually comprehensively edit posts, and to make detailed comments about how the user can more effectively interact with the site. It's here specifically to get people to invest the time in significant overhauls, rather than spending a few seconds per post doing fixing the one easiest thing they can find to fix.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 22:12
  • And how does using any edit at all as the exit condition for the queue help?
    – Air
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 22:17
  • It doesn't, that's one of the problems with the queue as I see it. It's a criticism I made about the system from the day triage was announced. meta.stackoverflow.com/a/278382/1159478 The point is we should be looking for ways to ensure that people make significant, comprehensive edits, rather than trying to find ways to get people to make smaller edits, as your post suggests.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 22:20
  • Then we're essentially asking for the same thing—decoupling "this has been edited" from "this no longer needs work."
    – Air
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 22:23
  • 1
    The difference being that you're considering people making minor edits to be doing a good thing, and that we want to encourage it, and I consider it to be against the goals of the queue, and want to discourage it. You want more people to look at the item so that everyone can "chip in". I want more people to look at it because someone else didn't do their job, and so someone else needs to clean up after them; possibly using this information to determine which reviewers aren't being helpful and suspend them from using the queue.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 22:28
  • 2
    Ah, I see. You're still fighting a battle that's been over for six months. It has nothing to do with the actual content of my post. I'll take the hint and move on.
    – Air
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 23:03
  • This post is rather chatty. A TL;DR would be of use.
    – Palec
    Commented Mar 7, 2015 at 10:06
  • @Air: Actually, that's about a different situation, and does not apply. Commented Mar 7, 2015 at 15:01
  • @Palec "Bottom line" is an idiom with much the same meaning as "TL;DR."
    – Air
    Commented Mar 7, 2015 at 15:39
  • Missed that part, @Air. I didn’t read that far.
    – Palec
    Commented Mar 7, 2015 at 17:24
  • @Air As much as a do feel that very minor edits aren't helpful, I do realize that clearway lots of people want to be rewarded for wasting their time and the time of others, and the community supports this. Having said that, that has nothing to do with this queue. If you read the OP, this queue is for people who want to make actual edits that actually add value. it's a place where edits are expected to actually help, and not just make a fix that doesn't actually change anything to get a +1 review. You can do that outside of this queue if you just enjoy wasting time, but not in it.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 9, 2015 at 14:18
13

I noticed something in your post that struck a chord:

We surface comments here because they quite often contain bits of information that are valuable to editors. New users all too often receive a comment asking for clarification, and reply with a comment instead of editing - you'll have the full context.

This seems like one of the root causes of poor questions and probably leads to many questions being unnecessarily closed, because all the interesting info is buried within the comment thread.

As a result, while I applaud your work on these new review queues, it seems like we could tackle some of these root causes with significantly less work.

There's a feature request on the main meta site: Inform new users about the option to edit their own post when adding a comment. This would take a fraction of the time this review queue will have taken and might help quite a lot...

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  • 7
    How did I not see tha .. oh never mind. Bringing up the idea now. Thanks for pointing it out.
    – user50049
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 14:29
  • Yet again, comments should not be second-class citizens. If it is most natural for new users to respond to questions by posting more comments -- and it is -- then the site should change to accommodate that, rather than trying (hopelessly) to force the users to modify their behavior.
    – zwol
    Commented Mar 7, 2015 at 2:40
11

Nearly all the reaction to a request for feedback on this queue seems to me to be actually directed at the Triage queue that put the question here in the first place. I'll address this queue first and then a couple of thoughts on Triage.

Thoughts on this queue specifically

This queue is exactly what I think the site has been missing for a while. (I have the same feelings about help via editing as @JoshCaswell) and my experience so far about the questions I've got from the queue mirror his too - pretty improveable.

This queue could be a really great asset and to which I will happily continue to contribute. It's extremely good to share your experience on what are the important things to get into a question and to help people obviously struggling with English but with a tangible question buried in the text.

I think the editing hints are spot on.

Recommendations:

  1. Share the existence of this queue, the editing hints and the fact that is to help, not criticise in the site tour so that new members are expecting it and don't take it as unsolicited criticism.
  2. Have the comments somehow marked as different to normal comments. Note - I know this might be difficult or infeasible, but it would help to distinguish this kind of educational comment from general comments. This is essentially the same as the issue highlighted in @Tanner's answer
  3. Have a button to alert "The System" that you've fixed what you can, but the OP needs to add more, for example stack trace, code, input data or something you couldn't possibly help with.
  4. EDIT After doing a few more tasks from this queue, we might need a button too that says "This is OK in my opinion", for any question that ends up cycling round in the queue but doesn't really need an edit. Or maybe they will just age off the queue / be removed based on other criteria.

Thoughts on why Triage is broken

It is easy to push "Needs improvement" but the "Unsalvageable" button requires you to enter a flag for closure. @davidism highlights a really good point that closing is just harder process wise

the mental overhead of finding the close option in the list is annoying

In addition I suspect I am not alone when I say I am wary about using flags - I had a few rejected recently, got a flag ban despite trying pretty hard to read all the guidance, etc. and, in the end, just find myself feeling a bit told off for trying to be helpful.

I think this is why the Triage outputs a lot of "Needs improvement" that ends up in this queue, including some which lots of users would call "Unsalvageable".

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  • 1
    might be worth linking recommendation 2. to my answer: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/287523/57475
    – Tanner
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 12:12
  • 2
    Sure - sorry about that, I don't know how I missed it first time round... Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 12:23
  • 1
    I'll echo your comments about flagging: if I'm not sure someone will agree with me on a close reason, but the question is awful, I will click 'Should Be Improved' for lack of a better option (usually also downvoting). I've started to just skip those now that I know the damage I'm doing, but that just pushes the decision onto someone else. Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 14:55
10

How many users are expected to see the same question for editing? I've noticed a few that appear to have gone through this queue before the question was presented to me for further review.

Is it expected that each subsequent view in this queue should be providing further edits for improvement?

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  • 1
    Keep in mind that users outside of the queue may be editing/commenting on the post, or users from other queues (i.e. first posts/low quality) rather than other users from this same queue.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 18:12
  • 3
    @Servy given that new queue is expected to be edit-heavy, I bet it would fly very poor without "a limited period of exclusivity" like one provided for suggested edit reviewers. Hopefully Tim had this in mind promising to "address common frustrations when editing"
    – gnat
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 18:30
  • @gnat That would mean that the item wouldn't be given to other people in the same queue. Not sure if that would apply to other queues or not, and it almost certainly wouldn't inhibit anyone editing that got their by viewing the question directly.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 18:36
  • @Servy assuming that "exclusive period" would be about 3 minutes, like it is for edits, I think this would do no harm. As for concurrent actions from those who access post directly, I wouldn't expect it to be a problem - again, just like it is not a problem for suggested edit reviews now
    – gnat
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 18:43
  • @gnat Not sure what you're trying to get all. All I said in my comment is that a conflicting edit might not be a result of someone else in the queue, but rather someone from another queue or someone from outside any queue. The fact that this queue doesn't give the same post to multiple people will help to limit edit conflicts, but it won't eliminate them, so the OP saying he got an edit conflict doesn't necessarily mean that the queue gave the same post to two people at once.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 18:54
  • My question wasn't about a question of exclusivity. It was simply how many people are being presented the same question and is the expectation that more than one of these users will be editing the same question (not in parallel)?
    – Andy Mod
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 19:16
  • @Servy it's quite likely that locking within this queue will be good enough. To start with, since Triage feeds questions into it, it won't (shouldn't) interplay with First Posts. Time will tell, but by design it's not supposed to intersect much with close queue. The only queue I can't fit into the picture yet is suggested edits; we probably need to wait and see
    – gnat
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 19:20
  • 5
    This was a bug - should be fixed now.
    – Shog9
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 21:03
10

If a correct action can be commenting to get more information from the OP, doing so should be able to clear the review task.

I tried commenting, and then had to "Skip" the question, because it wasn't ready to be edited yet. Perhaps we should add a "Waiting on OP edit" button?

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  • 1
    The thing to do in these cases is make any edits that you can, and in the comment let them know what else is needed, and that they should edit to add it (when that's possible). We didn't make that at all intuitive, working on fixing that now. The main reason it doesn't clear is the two use cases can happen independently, you might want to comment and then edit, for instance, so the post stays loaded. Going to look at smacking some of the wonky out of how it establishes expectations on the reviewer end.
    – user50049
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 14:27
8

Disclaimer: I don't have enough rep to actually view the queue itself. (Though I was able to view and edit already-reviewed questions from links in this thread. You guys should possibly do something about that.)

Having said that, I've read a lot of people's complaints about it and it seems to me that the biggest problem is that editors are being forced to edit or skip when improvement needs to be made by the OP.

For example, the situation where OP's question is slightly unclear, but should be fixable with a few comments back and forth and/or an edit from the OP. From the description we got of Triage, the Help and Improvement queue is the right place to put this (it's injured, but salvageable).

However, as soon as the first reviewer has posted their "To clarify, are you asking blah blah blah?" there is nothing more that can be done until the OP clarifies.

There should be some kind of "Waiting for feedback" button (greyed out if no-one has commented on the post):

awaiting response
As soon as X reviewers click this button, the post should disappear from the queue, and get automatically added back when the OP comments on or edits their post. diagram explaining concept

As you can see, there's no limit to the number of times people can throw it back to limbo, if further clarifications are needed from the OP. In the meantime, whilst the community is waiting for OP to respond, it's not clogging up the queue.

(There's always the possibility that the OP does such a stellar edit that they send it back to the queue in a condition where H&I reviewers can't even find a single character to edit... but, well... ;) )

The Help and Improvement queue is the right place to sort this because:

  • Triage is meant to be really quick bucket-sorting. "Can't be saved" / "Can be saved" / "Doesn't need saving". Adding a fourth option slows down the process and reduces the efficiency of Triage.
  • The post can go back and forth into and out of H&I as and when the OP clarifies.
  • H&I is the place where people write the questions to elicit clarifications from the OP. It makes sense to mark posts as awaiting OP response in the same place.
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  • 1
    'if you think of it, "closed/deleted" is the same as "passed back to the poster for improvement" (no answers are allowed until after asker improves)' (comment to a prior answer)
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 13:41
  • @gnat At the moment it is. But the idea of Triage is that the improvement questions don't appear on the main site until the improvement is finished. Also, I'm not really sure how your comment relates to my answer. I could reply based on my best guess, but it might be better if you clarified first...? Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 13:55
  • 2
    per my reading, effect of "Waiting for feedback" button means "passed back to the poster for improvement", which in turn suggests that question is better to be closed, in order to protect it from getting answers that could block improvements
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 14:12
  • ...taking into account that edits would automatically push closed question to reopen review, this could build a fairly smooth flow
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 14:18
  • @gnat I wrote a long meta post a while back suggesting that many of the "Needs Improvement" questions should be closed until they are fixed - after all, we're encouraged to close questions early to encourage the OP to fix their questions. But I discarded the post when I realised that (although it hasn't been implemented yet) the idea is that triage questions only go to the main site when they have been deemed fit for it (either "Looks OK", or "Needs Improvement" and then improved). Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 14:18
  • 1
    @gnat The main point of the suggestion here is to take them out of the H&I queue whilst they are awaiting response. At the moment they're just clogging the queue and forcing reviewers to skip. Also, the difference between closing the questions entirely and hiding them in limbo (besides visibility) is that in this instance the questions would go back to the H&I queue when commented/edited. In my opinion this is better than sending them to the Reopen queue, for the same reasons that we have a H&I queue to begin with (you can edit from the Reopen queue, but it doesn't encourage... Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 14:22
  • ... substantial edits in the way that the H&I queue is supposed to be doing). Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 14:22
  • I think I understand. Closed question becomes visible (and thus adds to "wall of crap" issue that Triage was supposed to address, not good). What you want looks closed to deletion, right? Only that deletion is a bad fit for our case - inexperienced asker won't see the deleted question and will likely attempt to plainly repost instead of reading comments and improving as suggested, right?
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 14:27
  • @gnat Similar, except that I believe the idea of triage is not to make these questions visible in the first place until they've passed the review process. So, in the diagram above, "Triage", "Help and Improvement", "Limbo" and "Deletion" are all not visible on the main site. So although an "In Limbo" question would be invisible (like a deleted question), moving it to Limbo would not be like deleting it, because it wasn't visible to begin with. Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 14:36
  • Let us continue this discussion in chat. Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 14:37
6

Regarding path #2: Comment helpfully

Tim's post explains:

Upon entering, the queue presents you with a question identified as needing improvement, and any comments it might have. You have three possible paths to take:

  • Edit the question through a guided interface that helps to ensure strong substantive edits that really improve the question, along with putting an emphasis on the why behind the edits you made in order to help the author learn to write stronger questions.

  • Comment helpfully, and encouragingly if the question seems to be missing something that only the author could know which prevents any responsible attempt at editing.

  • Skip to the next question to work on if this one simply isn't the best question for you.

The "Help & Improvement Queue" states:

  • Edit if you understand this question well enough to give it clear, attractive language and formatting

  • Skip if you don't feel there's anything you can do to help this question or its author

Scenario:

  • I'm in the Help & Improvement Queue (check).
  • I've made the effort to read and understand the question (check).
  • I have concluded that "the question seems to be missing something that only the author could know which prevents any responsible attempt at editing", in fact.. everything else was perfectly OK (check).
  • I leave the comment (option/"path" 2), explaining to the author what is missing and why that is important to answer the question (check).
  • I'm DONE. (ch...) huh, what??? Where is the "I'm Done" button?

I 'felt' there was something I could "do to help (this question or) its author", (which I did,) so I shouldn't click Skip (according to it's description/explanation).
Neither should I click Edit since "the question seems to be missing something that only the author could know which prevents any responsible attempt at editing". Besides, I also can not 'summarise my edit' since there was no edit because it was not responsible.

So how am I supposed to advance the review-que??
I clicked Skip (because Tim's post stated that "This queue is mutually exclusive") so that review-task could continue it's flow in the system (instead of being locked to me for x amount of time).
But now, according to the review-counter, I did nothing according to the system, as if I did not review the question and (at least tried to) help the author (unsurprising, since I just hit "Skip", which is intended to use when .... oh, well.. read above :) ).

Either this is a bug (and would then need to be fixed) or a feature-request.
OR, the current instructions and explanation could benefit from some re-wording
(as it currently appears contradictionary to me as I tried to explain in this answer).

OR..
Add an option to triage: "Needs improvement by author" (as is answered and commented a number of times). One could make it so that the triage-reviewer that decides that this question needs improvement by the author is presented with a (optionally 'special' (what ever that could mean)) comment-box intended to explain what the author needs to improve/add (and why).

Actually, this same button/logic-flow could also be added to the "Help & Improvement Queue" making such a comment a distinct helpful registrable action.

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  • Probably relevant (especially if it turns out to be by-design): meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/287573/… Commented Mar 7, 2015 at 22:51
  • 1
    There's a bit of debate as to whether comment-only reviews are really useful in this queue. I'm personally of the opinion that if you can't find anything to edit you're not really trying, and calling a comment a review in this context is just giving folks who shouldn't be in this queue at all something to do. But... There is currently a path for such folk (see Deduplicator's link).
    – Shog9
    Commented Mar 8, 2015 at 18:36
  • @Shog9 while I agree that comment only are not particularly useful due the nature of the queue, sometimes you must give up editing since you don't even know where to start and some friction with OP is needed.
    – Braiam
    Commented Mar 8, 2015 at 21:25
6
  1. By the time the post ends up in this queue, there are sometimes several comments that include text like: you should add a code example. If you forget to read and remember those, you are likely to add something like that in your own comment after editing.

    Please leave the comments viewable without having to open another windows.

  2. Feedback from OPs of reviewed queues, if at all, is invariably: "can you please help solve my problem". I am probably going to include some standard info about "I don't know the answer to your problem, I would have answewered if I did. but as is your question was more difficult to understand than necessary". These "gimme an answer" comments are most annoying, and tempts me to open a second window and delete the required comment after reviewing. The OPs normally don't know they can @username the editors with their begging. Or maybe I will just downvote the question if there is explicit begging and explain the downvote in another comment.

  3. Sometimes it is clear that there are Triage reviewers that hit "Should be improved" without reading the question. I think I am quite critical, but sometimes the question is just ok as is (and wasn't edited after the initial post). Currently there is only skip and it is unclear if that accumulates info about the original Triager to be incorrect or that I don't understand the question enough to be able to improve it.

    Can we get buttons to differentiate between No improvement necessary and Skip because I am not capable of improving this (the latter can still be called Skip)?

  4. On my first review I was trying to find out what to do and what was expected of me. Before I was finished editing I got the message that my post had been edited (by someone else getting the post for review). Not very encouraging for something that is a time intensive task in the first place.

    Can you include at least some time indication in which the review should be done (before it gets reassigned to a possible other reviewer)? It would be even better to have a timer and/or some way of indicating that you are still working on the review (i.e. prevent the post from being re-queued for another X minutes).

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  • Re #3: Skip just moves you on to the next question, leaving the one you were looking at alone. Rare indeed is the question that can't use at least a little bit of editing (don't neglect the title and tags!) but not everyone can edit every question.
    – Shog9
    Commented Mar 8, 2015 at 18:30
  • Re #2: comments are no longer required, although if you have specific advice for improvement or can use your edit as a teaching opportunity I strongly encourage you to leave one. Also, don't explain downvotes; leave constructive criticism regarding the post only please.
    – Shog9
    Commented Mar 8, 2015 at 18:31
  • Re #4: we've increased the "exclusivity" time for reviewers, which should help reduce edit collisions considerably.
    – Shog9
    Commented Mar 8, 2015 at 18:33
  • @Shog9 I noticed today that comments are no longer required and that the old ones are there. I had not noticed that the edit exclusivity time has been extended, but that probably is a sufficient measure to allow for well-thought-through editing and a comment. Thanks!
    – Anthon
    Commented Mar 8, 2015 at 19:54
6

First the H&I queue was too full, now it’s too empty!

I’m not really sure if anything changed algorithmically between the launch of H&I and the current state of things, but H&I is actually currently hovering around a pretty consistent zero items.

This could be because there were a lot of posts in the system that needed to be reviewed when the queue was launched, but after people started working on them, the influx of new items wasn't enough to maintain a steady flow of questions.

I originally thought that the rate of new questions and the amount of time it took to review posts in H&I would be too great to keep the queue at bay. Turns out I was wrong.

I appreciate the effort everyone has put in to keep the queue small, but I feel like this is an indication that it could be doing more than it already is. I'm not sure what the specifics are about what posts are kept in H&I and which are not, but I’d be interested in seeing some of those algorithms tweaked a little.

For one, it is my understanding that currently, once a post has been edited, it will be kicked out of the queue. It would be nice to keep them in the queue after they've been edited and to have a “Looks Good” button that would be the factor in removing posts.

It might also be interesting to feed some unsalvageable posts into the queue if there aren't enough to keep people busy, but that could also be more annoying that helpful, so I don't know about that.

Basically—I want to review posts! I know there are lots that can benefit from some touching-up. In fact, I'd say almost every new post on the site could use some improvement. Frankly, there's not much of a reason for this queue to be consistently empty. We should be drowning in posts that need to be improved, and honestly, that's better than keeping the queue empty.

6

Throwing my $0.02 based on my experiences of using the queue. I have noticed the frustrations already repeated ad-nauseum (majority of questions coming in from the Triage queue should not be candidates for improvement, the queue needing a 'This question requires extra information from the asker' button), but I really really like the idea of helping new users overcome their issues. The only question that I feel I managed to make significant improvements too was this one (out of about 25-30 questions that I came across), and it was very gratifying to see that the author actually took my comments on board and improved his question overnight.

One solution that I thought of for the flood of bad questions coming from Triage, would be to count the number of times that a question is skipped, and if it is skipped more than a threshold, then place the question on hold and drop it out of the queue with the on hold reason stating something like:

Our community has reviewed your question, and the have not found any way to significantly improve the content to make it answerable. You can try the following things to improve your question.

  1. Add relevant formatted code samples to your question to create a minimum, complete, verifiable example, along with any error messages/stacktraces that you are receiving.

  2. Ensure that your question statement is complete, and contains information about what you have tried, what you think the problem might be and what your expected output of the code should be.

  3. Ensure that your post has correct spelling and grammar. Grammatically and syntactically correct questions are more likely to be answered.

I'll leave the specific wording to someone more eloquent (cough Tim cough) but that would be a fairly easy metric to work out if a question is not deserving of being in the queue.

I do realise that this method would mean the threshold would have to be set quite high, because 90% of the time, if I don't recognise the language (ie, its not Java, Spring, JS or HTML) I will skip, which means that esoteric questions might suffer through quite a few skips before coming across someone who might actually be able to answer it. If more than 20ish users skip a question however, then it is probably a clear indication that the question doesn't belong in the queue.

On the other hand, the question I did actually improve was about iOS 8, which I have as much knowledge about as Paris Hilton trying to build that operating system.

A good question in need of improvement, in the perfect world should be improvable by anyone with a decent command of the English language, which should realistically be most of us, so I applaud the attempt to make Stack Overflow a better place.

5

As of today (2015-03-07) you get the option to further edit a question, vote on it once you are done editing, or alternatively press Next. On the last question you are allowed to do on a day this Next is missing (as there is no next question that will be offered). That is confusing until you realise you have done your allowed reviews for the day (which I only did because I saw a multiple of 20 at the top).

enter image description here

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  • 1
    The button should be there and active, IMO. As in other queues – if you reach the limit, next page informs you about that a what you should do.
    – Palec
    Commented Mar 7, 2015 at 10:00
  • @Palec It should but it doesn't, see the image. Happened today as well.
    – Anthon
    Commented Mar 8, 2015 at 11:47
  • 1
    I meant my comment as a suggestion on how to get the behavior in line with the other queues.
    – Palec
    Commented Mar 8, 2015 at 12:04
5

I only see one problem with the help and improvement queue: it exists.

Ideally, problematic questions that were put there should instead get fixed by the poster themselves. And until then, the question should be closed.

Can we please force the crap posters to put some minimum of effort into their questions and/or understanding the site policies? Instead of relying of numerous review queues and thousands upon thousands of moderators?

Although I can't be bothered to produce some evidence for it, it seems very obvious to me that the rapidly degenerating quality of SO is mostly caused by first time posters. If you truly wish to improve the quality of the site, then stop giving people fish instead of employing thousands of voluntary fishermen.

Remake the first time post queue so that a post needs to pass through review before even becoming visible the site. If it doesn't pass, the crap post gets passed back to the poster, who'll then have to fix it themselves.

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  • 2
    "problematic questions that were put there should instead get fixed by the poster themselves" ==> this means, these questions should be evaluated in Triage queue with recommendation to close, not to push into H&I
    – gnat
    Commented Mar 16, 2015 at 12:42
  • @gnat "First poster", "triage" and "help and improvement" could actually all be replaced by one single "triage" queue. If they fail that queue, the post should either get closed/deleted or passed back to the poster for improvement.
    – Lundin
    Commented Mar 16, 2015 at 12:44
  • if you think of it, "closed/deleted" is the same as "passed back to the poster for improvement" (no answers are allowed until after asker improves). That said, I (infrequently) see questions that I could improve into shape myself, without asker. Typically these look like a reasonably good question polluted by something like a tool / tutorial request - cut out that garbage and the rest looks okay
    – gnat
    Commented Mar 16, 2015 at 12:48
3

I went through this queue for the first time today. Literally everything I came across was unsalvageable rubbish ("how do I do..." "I get this non-programming-related error..."). As per @davidism's answer there needs to at least be an option to close the question being asked.

Personally I feel that this queue shouldn't exist, and the "Should be improved" option should be stripped out of the Triage queue. That would force reviewers to make an actual choice about whether a question is salvageable or not, as opposed to just pushing it onto another queue.

2

Most of the questions in this new queue are lacking information. And only the original poster can provide these. What others can do is tidy up the code a bit, fix spelling/grammar, edit tags. The questions will still be 'Unsalvageable' and need OP to add more information like, Error messages, relevant code, Input data, Expected Output.

I don't think this new queue will be that helpful.

1
  • 2
    A question missing some information is not without a path to salvation provided that what was given by the question author clearly indicates that they put some time and thought into what they did write. This is one of the trickier points of triage that we have to better communicate in the UI itself.
    – user50049
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 14:32
2

Could we make the top bar stay visible during scrolling like the other review queues do? It's somewhat inconvenient to scroll down a large question, find that there isn't anything you (want) to improve, and have to scroll all the way back up to hit Skip.

#firstworldproblems

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  • 8
    It's even more annoying to have that blasted bar in place while trying to edit a lengthy post. Maybe another "cancel" link at the bottom?
    – Shog9
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 23:12
  • 3
    @Shog9 I wouldn't mind having it stay put during editing, but while I'm deciding whether to edit it would be nice to have it stay in view.
    – Undo Mod
    Commented Mar 5, 2015 at 23:35
  • I would like the tags to be at the top for this queue at least, so we can quickly skip if they're tagged with a language or mobile platform I'm not interested in.
    – Mark Hurd
    Commented Mar 6, 2015 at 1:00
2

This question deserved improvement via this queue, which I gave it -- but it also needs to be migrated to ServerFault.

Please expose at least the "off-topic" submenu of the close vote menu within this queue; it should be available both before and after choosing to edit the question.

Ideally, once this is rolled out network-wide, a question that hits this queue, and is then migrated to another site without getting edited first, should be automatically put into this queue on that site. (For example, reviewers on SO might be able to recognize a poorly-written-but-valid system administration question but not have enough domain knowledge themselves to fix it, so they should be able to bounce it to the reviewers on SF.)

2

I have finally found the time to go and play around in the new queue. First off, kudos for the idea, I think it's a step in the right direction.

Feedback

  • When editing, I don't like that the title textbox is below the body. Both the edit form and Ask Question form have the title textbox at the top. Can we keep this consistent since this is just editing within a queue?

  • Is one of the motives of this queue to teach OP how to write better questions? If yes (and I assume it is), then I really believe it would better benefit OP to break the edit summaries out of comments and into more private messages that directly correlate with the edit diff.

    It could be entirely possible that I am perceiving one of the purposes of the queue wrongly but, the way I see it, when someone posts sub-par content the community has two problems:

    1. Sub-par content that has to be addressed
    2. Another user that hasn't learned how to effectively communicate and will possibly add more sub-par content

    So, the Help and Improvement Queue can kill two birds with one stone. Unfortunately though, I think it is being limited by its potential by using comments to do so. I recently improved a post where I left the following suggestions:

    Titles that include wording like "not working" offer no summarized insight into the problem and are less likely to attract views. Be as specific and summarized as possible in your title.

    Try to ask a question in your body even if you feel like it's already obvious. It helps others hone in the specific question your trying to get answered.

    A little more effort in formatting will go a long way in showing others that you're making an effort to communicate clearly and effectively.

    which got jumbled into a comment on the post. This agitates me for a few reasons:

    • It has absolutely nothing to do with the post's objective, it's only meta information.
    • After the OP reads it, it is no longer constructive and adds no real value to the conversation.
    • It has no true correlation with the edit which is confusing and makes the whole ordeal of spending the time to teach OP possibly wasted
  • The edit summary max length is shorter than the max length of the comment so, you can potentially leave cutoff edit summaries.

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  • 1
    Which direction shall consistency go? Title-box above or below? Also for asking questions? Commented Mar 11, 2015 at 22:20
  • Is there an exiting form that has the title box on bottom? Commented Mar 11, 2015 at 22:21
  • 1
    The new queue, for described reasons. And it might make sense to change the others too, or it might not.... Commented Mar 11, 2015 at 22:23
  • Other than habit, I have no real preference, so if the title can serve more purposes at the bottom, I am open to that. I just don't care for the inconsistency. Commented Mar 11, 2015 at 22:25
  • 2
    Moving the title field has been suggested for the main interface: 1 2 (thought there was another one, too, but I can't find it). I personally always thought it was a good idea.
    – jscs
    Commented Mar 11, 2015 at 23:07
  • I think you are arguing against comments’ intended use, @CarrieKendall. They are designed to be ephemeral. Any information useful in the long term should be edited in the post, except when it changes the post radically. Then it should be the base of a new answer, or a comment that is left to the post’s author to incorporate.
    – Palec
    Commented Mar 12, 2015 at 6:23
1

At present, edit summaries are getting the short end of the stick. Can we get a field that displays how the summary will be posted as a live preview? That way we can at least make some effort to ensure the truncation cuts off only the less-important stuff.

In the longer term, though, the ability to set the summary separately from the comment seems pretty essential. They're fundamentally not the same thing.