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Something that came up quite a few times in a recent case on Meta, was that the offending user was suspended.

This sparked a lot of discussion. What caught my attention, was one of the arguments raised:

"Some of you folks seem to think that suspensions are meant as a punishment. They are not."

This really surprised me.

Now, a few explanations were given:

"Generally the purpose of the suspensions are geared more towards rectifying user behaviour rather than actually punishing the user."
(written by a user)

"While they are a kind of punishment for suspended person because they are not able to participate while being suspended, primary role is stopping and preventing further bad behavior."
(written by a moderator)

"You completely missed the point, and I don't know what to say to put you on the right track, because you keep insisting that suspensions are something they are not."
(written by a moderator)

Okay. So suspensions are meant as a tool to stop undesirable behavior. Sounds great, right?

To me, the problem is that this doesn't consider the receiving end (at all).

Suspensions are punishment to most users on the receiving end. It doesn't matter that they're not "meant" to be punishment.
Saying suspensions aren't punishment is akin to a bully saying "It was just a joke".

It's only a joke if both parties laugh.

Even if you don't use it as punishment, even if you don't intend it to be punishment, it is perceived as such. Heck, ask anyone who has been suspended on SE.

Having been on the receiving end of those 7 days in the past, that absolutely felt like punishment.

I'd like to get some recognition that, regardless of intent, to the suspended, suspensions are a punishment.

Bonus point if moderators would weigh in, because for now, it feels like the entire idea that suspensions are perceived as punishment is completely dismissed because that's not their "intent".

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    I'd like to get some official recognition that, regardless of intent, to the suspended, suspensions are a punishment — this request is self-contradictory. "To the [person being] suspended" how the suspension comes across is entirely subjective. How can an "official" recognition be offered for a subjective feeling?
    – blackgreen Mod
    Commented May 13 at 8:48
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    @blackgreen my point is that any and all voices stating that suspensions are perceived as punishment are dismissed with "that's not their intent". I'm asking for some empathy and some consideration, here. It doesn't matter that their intent isn't to punish someone if to most users it is perceived as such. And I'd like for the moderators to accept that and for them to keep that into consideration. Completely dismissing perception based on intent is the problem. I'd like "you guys" not to do that.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 13 at 8:51
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    Recognition by whom? Who needs to recognize that? Should there be "recognition" that downvotes/closevotes are perceived as punishment as well?
    – yivi
    Commented May 13 at 9:22
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    @yivi ideally from moderators, but blackgreen shut that down extremely quickly. Imo, votes are a different discussion. While I do see where you're coming from in that they're negative actions that can be perceived as punishment, their effects aren't nearly as significant as a suspension is.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 13 at 9:24
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    I have trouble understanding what you want to achieve with this post. In other words what would be practical difference between saying "Yes, it is a punishment" and "No, it is not a punishment"?
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented May 13 at 11:08
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    @DalijaPrasnikar what Cerbrus is aiming for is that moderators stop saying "suspensions are not a punishment" note that this is different from "Yes, it is a punishment" or calling suspensions a punishment, it is more of "Yes, some people might call suspensions a punishment and that isn't really incorrect". Commented May 13 at 11:18
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    @AbdulAzizBarkat Again, I want to know what are practical implications of this question. What is the final purpose. Note, the statement "suspensions are not a punishment" was said in the context where people were asking why user was not suspended for a longer period of time. In that context, saying "suspension is not meant to be a punishment" was appropriate, because suspension achieved its goal. The only intent I can get from this question is if we stop saying that they are not meant to be punishment is that people will start asking for different suspension lengths for different offences.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented May 13 at 11:24
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    @DalijaPrasnikar also that sentence is not correct / suitable for that context. It should have instead been "The main purpose of suspensions is to discourage and stop problematic behaviour which this suspension has achieved" This is nitpicking but as moderators your words carry weight and shouldn't be used inaccurately like that. Commented May 13 at 11:31
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    @AbdulAzizBarkat What is inaccurate in the sentence "suspension is not meant to be punishment" in the context where you are trying to say why was particular suspension length used. I really don't see the difference. Nobody said that user who receives the suspension will not perceive it as punishment.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented May 13 at 11:37
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    This stemmed from a particular user (VonC) posting quite a few ChatGPT based answers for quite a while, and getting caught. Upon getting caught and suspended, VonC apologized. The length of the suspension was a week(?). (I may have some of these facts wrong!). The important point here is that if a suspension was just to stop bad behavior, 24 hours would always be more than enough (after all if they do it again just suspend them for another 24 hours? and another and another). Personally; to me the suspension should help stop the behavior from ever happening again. Here, a week isn't enough. Commented May 13 at 20:14
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    Downvotes are also widely perceived as punishment, you know.... Commented May 13 at 22:02
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    It is not clear from this post why any of this matters? What would some official statement change for anyone? "Yes, we recognise that you feel punished. Are we done now?" Commented May 14 at 3:44
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    I don't think it's a useful question. Whatever the answer is, it doesn't help judging whether a specific suspension had the right duration. Commented May 14 at 4:13
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    What do mods think punishment is, if not a way to rectify behavior? Commented May 14 at 18:02
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    It's the same situation as users being upset when we close their questions. E.g. "THEY JUST YELL AT US AND CALL US STUPID FOR ASKING A QUESTION" when in reality no one commented anything, or if they did it was "we need more details such as an MRE in order to help. Please share your code from X method", and the question was closed for that reason, or as a duplicate which answers the question, but OP doesn't know enough about the subject to realize that it is actually a correctly-closed duplicate, etc. It's not our problem that such users are so daft. We can't fix that level of problem.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 14 at 18:59

6 Answers 6

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One of the definitions of "punish" according to Merriam Webster is as follows:

to impose a penalty on for a fault, offense, or violation

When suspensions were implemented on Stack Overflow the blog post announcing them called it a "penalty box", i.e. there was an implication that the user is being penalized.

Although the intentions behind suspensions are very much to discourage and stop problematic behaviour that doesn't really mean it is not a penalty. In fact the two don't really conflict with each other. One of the purposes of a punishment is to stop problematic behaviour.

Moderators insisting that "suspensions are not a punishment" in my view isn't constructive. Discussing the length of this "punishment" according to the severity of the abuse is a different matter and it does take the intent behind the suspensions into consideration but that should be a separate question if users feel a need for it.

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    Moderators don't dole out longer suspensions based on the gravity of the infraction. It isn't like prison sentences where a judge decides the length of incarceration based on the severity of the crime. The "not a punishment" statement was in response to questioning why only a week suspension for something severe. I read it as "Some of you folks seem to think that longer suspensions are meant as a punishment for worse behavior. They are not." Commented May 13 at 18:49
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    @StephenOstermiller why are we discussing changing the suspension period? I explicitly state that if anyone wants to discuss that it can be a separate discussion, Cerbrus doesn't seem interested in discussing that here as well... In general I agree with D. W.'s answer both Cerbrus and the moderators just needed to express themselves better, this answer by me was just an attempt to end this "debate". Commented May 13 at 18:55
  • @AbdulAzizBarkat, Here's how I interpret things: I think this post was triggered by a complaint about Dalija Prasnikar's comments, and I think Dalija Prasnikar's comments were in response to comments on the other post that I viewed as lobbying for a longer suspension period. I think that's part of the broader context that is helpful for understanding and evaluating Dalija Prasnikar's comments and for interpreting the requests in this particular question.
    – D.W.
    Commented May 13 at 19:04
  • @D.W. I am aware of the context, in fact the second quote in the question "Generally the purpose of the suspensions are geared more towards rectifying user behaviour rather than actually punishing the user." is from my comment. The reason why this post became a bit heated was that it was initially closed by one of the involved moderators (IMO inappropriate as they have a conflict of interest) as opinion based and there's some awkwardness around it. Commented May 13 at 19:13
  • @AbdulAzizBarkat, Good. Given all that, I hope you can understand why Stephen Ostermiller is commenting on the broader context surrounding the length of the suspension.
    – D.W.
    Commented May 13 at 21:51
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    Yeah, I can see where it's difficult to have an actual discussion when one side is saying "suspension isn't punishment because it's intended as X" when the other side is pointing out that X is literally part of the description/definition of "punishment". 🤷🏻‍♂️ Words, man.
    – Drew Reese
    Commented May 13 at 23:44
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    @DrewReese Also, I don't think any moderator has said "suspension isn't punishment", but rather things like "isn't meant as punishment", "the primary purpose/role isn't punishment", "the goal isn't punishment" etc.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 13 at 23:50
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    "there was an implication that the user is being penalized." I think this is objectively inaccurate, especially considering the blog post you quote says, right after introducing the term penalty box, "Our general strategy is to discourage specific problem behaviors, not individual users" (emphasis theirs). They make it explicitly clear suspensions are about actions, not about people.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 14 at 19:02
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    @TylerH that's the purpose of the penalty (the suspension). Let's not rehash this again, I find people here misconstruing thing like punishment and the purpose of the punishment and you're doing the same with penalty and its purpose... Commented May 14 at 19:06
  • @AbdulAzizBarkat Rehash? I'm just providing a critique of part of your answer as it existed when I read it. If you have already discussed how that part of your answer is incorrect with someone above, you should edit the answer to improve/correct it. The only misconstruction here is on your part in the answer, as far as I can tell; you say "there is an implication that the user is being penalized" and I pointed out the link your answer uses states the exact opposite. That's... misconstruing things, to say the least.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 14 at 20:09
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    @TylerH I mean this question is asked because of people mistaking the difference between the punishment and its goal / purpose, you are mistaking the difference between penalty and its goal / purpose. I don't want another debate over the meaning of words. As to your quote you're cherry picking, directly after your quote it says "But sometimes you just can't seem to reach people, and it becomes necessary to place accounts in timed suspension.". Let me ask you are you disagreeing that the suspension is a penalty? The blog post clearly implies it is one by calling it a penalty box. Commented May 14 at 20:17
  • No, I'm disagreeing with your statement in your answer which I think is objectively wrong. I think it's normal to expect users to continue to leave critical comments under a discussion answer so long as the answer is making wrong claims. Nothing else in the entire Q&A thread is relevant to my comment(s) here under your answer.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 14 at 20:24
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    @TylerH your entire point revolves around that. When something is called a penalty and the penalty Is given / imposed on a person it can be said that the person is penalized, ergo I see nothing wrong with "there was an implication that the user is being penalized" as long as we consider a suspension as a penalty. Commented May 14 at 20:32
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    @StephenOstermiller Moderators don't dole out longer suspensions based on the gravity of the infraction. It isn't like prison sentences where a judge decides the length of incarceration based on the severity of the crime. That makes much sense and answers quite a few questions in one go. So to restate: The severity of the crime does not matter and the standard action would always be warning/7/30/365 based on the repetition of the offense. Whether that is entirely right or not should be put to discussion imho, but thank you for clarifying this in such simple words. Commented May 15 at 9:46
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    @Gimby not really exactly about this particular discussion but wouldn't getting sent to your room be very similar to a suspension? Both have the effect of a "time out" and seem to have a purpose to stop and deter problematic behaviour? I do agree though both can very possibly invoke feelings of unfairness, unjust retaliation, retribution, etc. Commented May 17 at 10:00
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Context is king

The following sentence was said in the context where multiple people were asking why a user received a short suspension when they thought that a longer suspension would be more appropriate.

Some of you folks seem to think that suspensions are meant as a punishment. They are not.

More precisely, the complete comments said:

Usually there is no reason to deviate from the standard suspension progression. Suspensions are really just a means to keep disruptive users off the site when there is evidence that they aren't going to reform (a typical example are cases of reiterated misbehavior). Moderators may occasionally impose suspensions with the primary intent of delivering a stronger message, however that's rather rare. Some of you folks seem to think that suspensions are meant as a punishment. They are not.

The above comment absolutely stands.

When moderators are issuing the suspensions, they don't do that to punish the user, but to stop particular behavior. There is also a standard warning/suspension 7/30/365 days escalation process for repeated offences, which also may slightly vary depending on the type of offence. This also means that user may get only a warning, but they may also be given an immediate suspension.

Nobody said that a user receiving suspension will not perceive a suspension as a punishment. But it is important to emphasize that this part is not relevant for the moderators when they are determining what is the most appropriate suspension length in each particular case.

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    Okay, here you are explicitly stating that suspensions are not punishments. To a lot of users on the receiving end, regardless of intent, they are.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 13 at 12:29
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    Certainly the user’s perceivance is relevant to the moderator(s) issuing the suspension of which the only goal is to stop the bad behaviour, when the perceivance of the suspension is directly linked to the impact it will make on stopping the behaviour? Commented May 13 at 12:30
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    And here, you even agree: "While they are a kind of punishment for suspended person because they are not able to participate ..."
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 13 at 12:35
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    @Cerbrus Please read the last paragraph. Those two things are in no contradiction whatsoever. How the user perceives suspension is completely unrelated to how are they being used.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented May 13 at 12:39
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    And all those comments build up on the one I put in my answer. I am mindful of how are suspensions perceived and I also put that part in my answer. So I really don't know what is your goal here. And because of that I cannot elaborate more.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented May 13 at 12:52
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    @Cerbrus Let me try to clarify: yes, suspensions are obviously a form of punishment. No one is attempting to say otherwise. However, it is not their primary purpose, which is to stop the offending behavior. They are used to the extent that moderators believe necessary to stop the behavior, and no longer. If someone does something bad once, and suspending them for a week will make them stop, then we will suspend them for a week (or maybe warn them). If someone else does it 100 times, and suspending them for a week will make them stop as well, then they will also be suspended for a week.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 13 at 21:31
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    @KarlKnechtel 2 days was not a standard duration, but moderators sometimes manually set a duration of a few days (I often do 3) in place of the 7-day or warning durations in the standard escalation path. In this case, I believe the moderator felt that 7 days would have been more than necessary to get the point across to you, but that more than a warning was required.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 13 at 22:38
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    I'm going to need you to define "punishment" if it isn't "something done to stop [a] particular behavior." Commented May 14 at 16:32
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    That same entry has "the act of punishing", with punishing being defined as " : to impose a penalty on for a fault, offense, or violation". If you need to point to a very specific dictionary entry to make your case, you're probably using the wrong word Commented May 14 at 16:44
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    I'm increasingly inclined to write an answer at this point, but that's a problem for future me; suspensions are perceived as punishment by at least some people. This very question is proof of that. Similarly, some (but not necessarily the same) people consider downvotes toxic, rude, and unwelcoming - the major difference is that, unlike with downvotes, we don't actually say anything explicit about suspensions. They are, arguably, a punishment (or a penalty), but we don't issue them to stick it to the offending user. It seems to me like the debate isn't over whether or not it's punishment, Commented May 14 at 16:49
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    but what the intent when determining how long to suspend for. Cerbrus did explicitly state this isn't about the duration, and while it isn't about the length of specific case that sparked the question, whether or not suspensions are used as revenge or proportional punishment (whatever that means in practice) seems to be the actual topic. Continuing to argue over the dictionary definitions is completely meaningless, and ignores the actual problem the question is asking about Commented May 14 at 16:51
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    As an aside, "When moderators are issuing the suspensions, they don't do that to punish the user, but to stop particular behavior" - the major reason we issue suspensions is to stop behaviour, and to disincentivise continued behaviour. Under the dictionary definition for a punishment, as interpreted by most people here, it is a punishment. What @DalijaPrasnikar meant to say is that we don't issue suspensions as retribution. Suspensions by their very nature are a form of punishment, but not one issued for revenge. I refer again to my first comment; the wrong words were used, and both sides Commented May 14 at 17:00
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    have been talking past each other as a result. Commented May 14 at 17:01
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    @RyanM Again, dictionary nitpick. Taking actual crime as an example, sending people to prison is technically punishment, but countries with prison systems built around rehabilitation still build on the principle of a different kind of punishment. The only difference is the goal and method of the punishment. It's perfectly possible for suspensions to be intended to stop behaviour (first link, section 2) and still be a form of punishment, even if the Commented May 14 at 17:16
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    "...they don't do that to punish the user..." I didn't mean to is typically not a valid excuse if one nevertheless does it. I think that they are either a punishment or they aren't. I'm not really happy with the formulation in this answer. I would expect more information about the (morale) implications of handing out suspensions and less about what people think when they hand them out or receive them to be convinced that it's a necessary punishment. Commented May 15 at 16:51
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I think both sides are making valid and reasonable points. I think you all can both be correct -- there is no contradiction. I get the impression that there is a certain amount of talking past each other.

I think you all are right:

  • I think the moderators involved are right and making a valid point. They're using suspension as a tool. Their goal is to protect the site from harmful behavior. They are using suspension as a mechanism to achieve that goal. When they have discretion to choose a suspension length and choose a length accordingly, their primary concern and consideration is how to protect the site and the community. Retaliation, revenge, or retribution was not their primary purpose in choosing how to respond to this situation. I encourage you to hear that point, and to understand what point they were trying to communicate to you.

  • Folks expressing concern are right and making a valid point. Suspension does have an effect on the suspended user. I would categorize it as a punishment, and I expect the average person on the street would consider it a punishment, too. Suspensions partly work by incapacitation (preventing the user from causing harm during the period of suspension, because the user can't do anything during that period), but also partly by individual deterrence (the knowledge that repeating the harm will cause an increasing escalation in the period of suspension). Both incapacitation and deterrence are recognized as among the standard purposes of any punishment, and deterrence is a form of punishment. The length of a suspension also has an effect on whether third parties feel that "justice has been done". I hope we can all agree that these points are valid.

I think you all are at least a little wrong:

  • In my opinion, some moderators could have written more precisely. When writing "Some of you folks seem to think that suspensions are meant as a punishment. They are not.", it could have been written more carefully to say that punishment is not the goal. When some people expressed unhappiness with that phrasing, the moderators could have acknowledged the validity of those concerns and clarified their phrasing.

  • In my opinion, some folks expressing concern are inaccurately characterizing what moderators said or taking statements out of context. For instance, one user writes "Okay, here you are explicitly stating that suspensions are not punishments.", but that is not what was actually written at that link; what was actually written is "You completely missed the point, and I don't know what to say to put you on the right track, because you keep insisting that suspensions are something they are not.". While it might be a failure of writing to explain clearly what was intended, it is also a failure of listening to interpret that as a statement that "suspensions are not punishments" -- that is drawing a broader conclusion than what Dalija Prasnikar actually wrote, and is ignoring the context of other comments.

    I don't see moderators as trying to take a position either way about whether punishment is perceived as punishment or what impact it has on users -- neither agreeing nor disagreeing. Rather, I see them as trying to make an orthogonal point, which seems to me like it has repeatedly been missed. Y'all can both be correct. The validity of the moderators point does not contradict or oppose the validity of the point that is important to you.

    I also encourage y'all to consider the broader context. The broader context I see are a group of people who appeared to be upset that the offender received a short suspension and who appeared to be lobbying for the offending user to receive a longer suspension. I see the moderators as trying to respond to those calls for a longer suspension of that particular user and cool things down a little, rather than trying to wade into a debate on the impact of suspensions on users.

In my opinion, everyone could have communicated more clearly. No one here is perfect.

In general, some standard goals for any scheme of punishment can be deterrence, incapacitation, rehabilitation, retribution, and restitution. I believe the moderators are trying to help people understand that, on the Stack Exchange platform, there is generally much more weight placed on incapacitation and rehabilitation, and to some extent, deterrence for the specific individual who is affected; the primary purpose is to protect the site through those approaches.

Retribution is not one of the primary purposes of suspension, on Stack Exchange. We're not looking to shame people. The purpose of suspension is not to "punish" them, e.g., by preventing them from getting any use out of the site; that could well be a (side) effect of suspension but it's not the intended purpose. There are a number of reasons why retribution doesn't work on this site as well as you might like, as a means to ensure good behavior. For example, we can't prevent people from switching to a different account, which makes retribution not so effective; therefore, if there's any chance of rehabilitation, that is greatly preferred. While a more punitive action might feel right, it can lead to people abandoning their account and starting a new account, which can (counter-intuitively) lead to overall worse outcomes for the site, even though it feels more fair.

General deterrence (i.e., deterring others) isn't one of the factors normally considered when choosing suspensions. I'd guess that most people are more motivated by social norms and expectations and wanting to have a positive, productive experience here rather than by fear of suspension.

Moderators have few tools that are effective at achieving restitution, so that also isn't one of the primary purposes or factors in moderators' minds when choosing suspension.

Moderators have a standard suspension progression. Please don't read the length of the suspension as some metric of the seriousness of the offense; that's not how the system works. We have a standard progression of suspension lengths. My understanding is that this progression has been designed, at least in significant part, to support rehabilitation.

If the length of suspension doesn't feel fair or just in this case, those feelings seem valid. It might mean that the SE system or policy were designed for a different purpose than what is on your mind right now. It's not intended to try to diminish or denigrate your perspective or experience.

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    If I could emphasize one thing in this answer (which I generally agree with as a whole), it would be "punishment is not the goal".
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 13 at 21:33
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    One quibble: "The length of a suspension also has an effect on whether third parties feel that 'justice has been done'." While that's certainly true, this is part of the reason we don't comment on what remediation actions may or may not have been taken regarding a specific user. We aren't here to issue sentences or punish people; we're here to make the community work. Sometimes that means that someone who caused a lot of trouble, but stopped after the first mod action, will get a shorter suspension than someone who caused less trouble, but was more stubborn about it (e.g., ignored mod msgs).
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 13 at 21:44
  • @RyanM, I completely agree. Those are excellent points -- thank you for emphasizing them. I also want to share with you another possible perspective. I suspect not everyone uses the word "punishment" in the same way. I suspect some people might use the word punishment more broadly than you are using it in that sentence. The goal of punishment is generally considered to be some mixture of deterrence, incapacitation, rehabilitation, retribution, and restitution.
    – D.W.
    Commented May 13 at 21:45
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    I suspect when moderators say "punishment is not the goal", they really mean things like "retribution is not the goal" and "incapacitation and rehabilitation are the primary goals". But I suspect some people use the word "punishment" in a broad sense that would include even actions whose goal is solely incapacitation and rehabilitation, so their reaction might be "yes, but it's still a punishment".
    – D.W.
    Commented May 13 at 21:45
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    @D.W. To take that thought to a logical conclusion, using the broader definition, punishment is not the goal, but punishment is the mechanism by which the goal is achieved. It's like how exercising isn't the goal; becoming more fit is the goal. But exercise is still occurring and important to the process. But saying that exercise isn't the goal, while true, would be a weird way to have the conversation unless it was specifically about clarifying the difference between the goal and the actions taken to achieve it. And it sounds like that clarity is lacking in the punishment conversation.
    – M. Justin
    Commented May 14 at 3:33
  • I wonder if part of the problem is that a group is applying punishments (by a broad definition of the term) while simultaneously seeming to deny the importance of punishment. And since they're using a narrower definition of punishment, or are more focused on the goal and not the mechanism for achieving the goal, they don't necessarily see a problem with their insistence that the actions (which are punishments by some valid definitions of such) are not meant as a punishment.
    – M. Justin
    Commented May 14 at 3:37
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    @M.Justin, Yes, that is more or less my impression... plus the same word means different things to different people. If we can define punishment[broad] to mean any response aimed at one or more of those 5 goals, and punishment[narrow] to mean any response aimed at retaliation/general deterrence, then my impression is some mods are saying ~"The goal is not punishment"~ and meaning "The goal is not punishment[narrow]", and some members of the community are saying ~"But it is a form of punishment"~ and meaning "But it is a form of punishment[broad]". That's why I say they can both be right.
    – D.W.
    Commented May 14 at 3:56
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Most suspensions are at least partially punishment. That is just a fact. Mods do not chose this. This is the system we have. It doesn't make any difference whether a mod means to punish. They will if they click those buttons.

While every suspension has a part that is meant to solve a problem, the majority is not directed at solving the problem at hand, but at punishing the perpetrator to a point where it serves as deterrent for future transgressions.

Lets say at a fictional cooking.SE (sorry, not into cooking, if something like that exists, my example has nothing to do with the real thing) a user is really passionate about their duck breast and argues a lot and maybe calls others names. They get a 24h suspension to cool down. They sleep about it, get distracted by their life and a few days later they are fine. The site moves on.

This was a suspension that solved a problem. It was targeted at breaking the bad behavior with the least disruption possible. And it worked.

It also, behind the scenes, already contains a punishment. That user is now barred from running for moderator network wide for a whole year. For no reason other than to punish them, because this does nothing to the duck breast debate. There is no solution orientation to ban them from becomming an SO mod in half a year, it has nothing to do with bringing peace to cooking.SE.

Now, lets assume everything is peachy until 18 months later, the same user, on their best behavior for 1.5 years, gets into a heated debate on whether pineapple belongs on pizza. They get called names, they respond in kind, a big comment mess, they need to calm down.

What do we do? Do we take the same solution that worked last time, suspend them for a day to calm down? We know it worked. It is the solution. Proven.

No. We take the solution that worked, and more than double it. For absolutely no reason. It doesn't solve the problem any better. It is simply punishment, to make clear that we will not apply the solution again and again, but rather get more drastic every time. A deterrent, not a problem solver.

Now don't get me wrong, if someone gets suspended and they come back after 24h and start the same thing again, the obviously the solution did not work and they need a longer suspension. But that is not the way the system is built. All perpetrators are the same.

Suspension is not punishment is one of those lies we tell each other, together with "it's about the post, not the user". Funny how voting on a post docks green internet points from the user, not the post. And funny how suspension adds more time then the actual problem solving would warrant, and doesn't even mention the network wider side effects.

I think the system works. It made this site very effective. I am not saying it's wrong. And simplicity, the lack of options, can even be a plus when scaling as huge as SE.

But we should face it for what it is: suspension contains more than 50% punishment. If a meal contains more than 50% meat, calling it vegan is a bit of a stretch.


Fine print for those that don't want to click through my profile: I currently am a moderator on an SE stack. I have also been suspended in the past on a different SE site (ironically, for disagreeing to vehemently on meta with the moderators on their moderation policy). And also have been suspended on the debates about the last COC change, that I disagree with. Being a cop or judge does not mean I have to like every law. My job is to enforce them, I can still vote to change them at whatever counts as a ballot box here.

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    This answer makes me feel that the problem is that there is a negative connotation with "punishing" / "punishment" where it is considered either unjust or as retribution / retaliation. Along with this there is also an attempt at self-justification as "We're not punishing a user, we're just stopping their behaviour" to avoid that self guilt / blame. In the end though doing this is just running away from reality. Commented May 15 at 6:40
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    From one who knows: Sometimes simply stating an indisputable fact in a "neutral voice" can be interpreted as "rude", and contribute to a user being suspended. It's a rough-and-tumble world in here.
    – Fe2O3
    Commented May 15 at 7:06
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    "They get a 24h suspension to cool down." presumes that the moderators are on top of current happenings and the perpetrator's account is suspended to interrupt an on-going battle. Sometimes, suspensions are imposed for incidents far more than 24 hours in the past. Those suspensions cannot but feel to be vindictive against the user.
    – Fe2O3
    Commented May 15 at 7:14
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    The network-wide year-long ban against running for mod is pretty severe. However, it's designed to prevent the suspension from becoming an issue during the election, dragging the candidate through the mud after they've served their suspension, and derailing the general discussion about the election. Allegedly... meta.stackexchange.com/q/274114
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented May 15 at 8:14
  • @PM2Ring Definitely allegedly. I've seen the rule enforced quite hard, granting no exceptions unless the suspension was in clear error or successfully appealed. If, say, the user mentioned here brought their past suspension up in advance to the community, along with the full details and what they learned from it, and the (small) community discusses over it and is willing to back them up, then the spirit of the rule is no longer the case (the drama has already taken place), but the team still won't allow it.
    – gparyani
    Commented May 15 at 20:14
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There is no argument here. If someone receives any type of effect for their actions, it is a punishment; that's just the definition of the word. One could philosophically argue this for hours, but it would be semantics. An effect for an offence is always a punishment. It's factual, and if you disagree you are overthinking because I stated a fact.

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    To me it looks like moderators kind of agree with the definition of punishment but somehow don't attribute much relevance to it. For them the intent of an action seems to be quite important and may overshadow the action itself to some extent. They didn't mean it. It might just be rhetoric to make things sound better, or there might be more to it. Still thinking about it. Commented May 15 at 17:30
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    The first definition of recourse I found was a turning to someone or something for help or protection which doesn't seem to fit your usage. Please provide a definition or reword this answer.
    – Nick Cox
    Commented May 15 at 17:52
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    gotcha, my bad, i dont even think i used it properly Commented May 15 at 19:53
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Even if you don't use it as punishment, even if you don't intend it to be punishment, it is perceived as such. Heck, ask anyone who has been suspended on SE.

Having been on the receiving end of those 7 days in the past, that absolutely felt like punishment.

Not sure what kind of an answer you are seeking here, but here's my take.

Let's assume that your suspension was justified, or at least, a reasonable person in a position of moderator would assume that the 7 days suspension is in order.

Can moderators do justice without making anyone's feelings hurt? That's a rhetorical question, obviously. Of course they don't like making people feel hurt, and of course they don't like to talk about it.

The next thing is to realize that the you who got punished is not the you who you are now. When you get to that point, it will no longer hurt.

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    I am not sure I really understand this answer. Can you detail it a bit? Specially the part Can moderators do justice without making anyone's feelings hurt? That's a rhetorical question, obviously. Of course they don't like making people feel hurt, and of course they don't like to talk about it.. Can you elaborate of what it has to do with the question here? Commented May 15 at 9:49
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    "Can moderators do justice..." The answer by Dalija states that justice (revenge) is not really the goal but rather correction. What you maybe wanted so say was that corrections of behavior cannot be achieved completely without some sort of punishment? Maybe talking would still help but would require that the rule breaker is willing to talk that through. Commented May 15 at 16:59

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