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I found this question Why is only the first case statement applied in a Google Data Studio? which is discussed on meta here Regex question was closed as lacking details, but I think it was objective and clear

What attracted my attention was a comment from moderator Cody Gray:

Moderator Note: We will not be deleting questions while they are under active discussion on Meta. Please note that having participated in the deletion of this question within the next 48 hours will likely result in the suspension of your account.

I find this unacceptable. One should not have to read the comment section before voting to delete a question, even if it's preferable. And such harsh consequences are completely out of proportion. I might add that the instructions for deletion mentions nothing about this:

When should I delete questions?

Closed questions that are of no lasting value whatsoever should be deleted.

Before voting to delete, please check whether there are any good answers; if so, then the question should be flagged for moderator attention as a potential merge candidate. We don't like to lose great answers!

Also, be cautious when deleting questions closed as duplicates; they can serve as a signpost, directing users to useful answers on another question.

If a question should not be deleted while it's discussed on meta, then a feature for protecting the question from deletion should be implemented. This is discussed here: Should posts that are actively being discussed on Meta be temporarily exempt from deletion?

But this question is about the suspension for such a (relatively) minor thing. Is it really reasonable to be suspended for not reading the comment section before voting to delete? Or for missing one single comment while doing so?

Clarification:

Note that I'm not saying that casting a delete vote is a minor thing. I'm saying that skipping comment section before doing so is a minor thing. And even more minor is missing one comment.

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    If I had any recourse other than suspension to stop people from inappropriately using their delete votes, I would do so. However, I do not, so this is what you get. Note that deletion is a privilege, so you are responsible for how you exercise privileges granted by the system. If that means you have to pay attention to context and comments, well...OK.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 17:49
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    using obscure comments and suspension treats instead of standard 2-days content dispute lock looks strange - can you please clarify this preference? @CodyGray
    – gnat
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 17:49
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    @gnat Content dispute locks prevent all interaction with the question. That's the last thing I want. People need to be able to vote on and edit questions when they're being discussed. What does not need to happen is deletion. I can't lock a question just from being deleted, so I have to lock the user accounts instead. It isn't ideal. If you want to fix this problem, propose a deletion-only lock, akin to our comments-only lock. Until that time, people are just going to have to continue to be individually responsible for how they exercise their delete-vote privileges.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 17:51
  • 7
    @klutt: It actually is a privilege. You can lose your privileges if you go down to 1 reputation, which is what happens if you're suspended. Just because you do the work doesn't mean you're entitled to continue to do the work.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 17:54
  • 10
    @Nick Sigh. The last thing I want is more noise in questions. But yeah, I guess if the problem is really that people are missing this notice, then I guess that would be fine. Evidence says literally nobody is missing it. It's gotten at least 2 Meta questions and multiple discussions in chat. Probably the bold text is working well enough.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 17:54
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    In the case in question, exercising delete votes would not be improving the site. Rather, it would be an abuse of the delete-vote privilege (yes, it's still a privilege, even if we appreciate when people exercise that privilege) because it would be treating the delete vote as if it were a "super-downvote", which don't exist for a reason.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 17:55
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    I do not understand what you mean, @gnat. When a post is deleted, it cannot be discussed, because the vast majority of people cannot see it. Additionally, people who are inappropriately using deleting votes are not content contributors. Precisely the opposite, in fact. Nor is suspension a "capricious trick"; it's practically the only recourse that moderators have. Nor are content locks "established and harmless measures". They are neither established in cases like this, nor are they anywhere close to harmless, because they prevent both voting and editing. I feel like I'm repeating myself...
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 17:59
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    @klutt Slippery slope fallacies aren't persuasive. Avoiding the deletion of a post that is under active discussion on Meta is not the same as users entirely stopping the use of their privileges.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 17:59
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    The thumb on the scale was very much intentional. It's akin to clogging the drain while you're searching for something that was lost in the sink or tub. You don't want it to drain out until you have a chance to look. Of course, if we completely froze the contents of the sink/tub, that wouldn't be very useful, because then no one could actually look for the thing that was believed to be lost in it. The neutral, objective PoV is that people should be allowed to vote on, edit, and view the question. Deletion prevents that. @KevinB
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 18:03
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    I have no valuation whatsoever for the work people do when the sole purpose of that work is to prevent others from having an opinion. That's the only reason anyone would vote to delete that question while it was under active discussion, and it is an abuse vector that happens over and over and over again. It is a misuse of votes, in my opinion, and I'm done with it. I've addressed more times than I can count just in the comments here why locking is inappropriate, and why suspension is the normal course of action for someone who exercises site features/privileges in an incorrect way.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 18:13
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    I've also had quite enough of this absolutely ridiculous slippery slope fallacy that upvoting is somehow incompatible with having quality content on the site, or that holding off on deletion of something while it is under active discussion on Meta is somehow devaluing the work that people put into curating this site. It's not as if leaving a single question that at least one person is actively working to improve is turning the site into a trash can. Not sure if you're aware, but I've put a lot of effort into curating this site over the years, none of it for any payment.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 18:15
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    @Braiam as usual you appear to be missing the nuances here. Where does it say moderators don’t want any content deleted?
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 19:23
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    @KevinB you really can’t wait 48 hours with deleting a single post? There is such a thing as giving other processes priority that everyone feels are important too, such as giving the community a chance to discuss a specific post for a few days without that post being locked away from the majority of users. Once that process is done the good ole priorities of content curation can triumph again.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 19:34
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    @Braiam there is lots of things you can’t delete, it is hardly a universal feature. And common sense would tell me that throwing a tantrum over not being able to cast a delete vote on a post for 48 hours would be silly. Just wait a bit.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 19:48
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    @KevinB let’s not go round in circles on that one. 48h != no deletion, ever. All this fuss because you have to wait two days.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 19:51

4 Answers 4

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Deleting questions (or answers) isn't minor.

You're removing something from public view on the site, and that should only be done in extreme cases - for instance, the post is something that is genuinely so radioactive that deleting it would preserve the rest of us from getting irradiated while at work or in the presence of others who might find that kind of content unsavory.

Deleting it just to delete the content is highly disruptive since moderators get flagged about undelete wars (e.g. groups of motivated actors toggling the state of a question between undeleted and deleted), and they have to do something about that.

That's probably why the moderator in question made that statement.

Personally I view it as a reasonable thing to state since maybe everyone needs to cool their jets on deleting a post like this (honestly not seeing my Geiger counter respond to it), and let the conversation about it on Meta unfold before a larger community action takes place.

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    this is wrong. Mod comment states 48 hours meaning that after this delay they are OK with deletion. Which makes one wonder, why using obscure comments and suspension treats instead of standard 2-days content dispute lock
    – gnat
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 17:52
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    @gnat because delaying 48 hours while allowing votes means it will receive enough upvotes to prevent deletion, thus fulfilling the real goal behind such a statement.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 17:53
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    No, literally, the real goal behind such a statement was to allow the Meta discussion to happen while people were actively engaged. If the conclusion reached on Meta was that it should be deleted, then it would be fine to delete it. That's why I put a 48-hour clock on there. I thought that was a reasonable minimum amount of time to allow for discussion. Moderators don't have auto-deleting comments, either.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 17:57
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    @KevinB I'm confused why people keep talking about upvotes. Don't votes (generated by meta effect or not) work in both directions? Disclaimer: I did not upvote or downvote the question being discussed. I just don't understand the logic behind the "fear of upvotes". Maybe I'm missing something though.
    – 41686d6564
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 18:35
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    "should only be done in extreme cases" nononono. A library of high quality questions and answers do not have drivel content. That content is removed.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 18:38
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    @KevinB I don't know if that's true. On many occasions, I've seen questions downvoted to oblivion due to the meta effect.
    – 41686d6564
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 18:38
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    I have too, though, it feels times have changed. people don't seem to have an issue with the opposite extreme. The question being discussed here is a textbook X/Y question with a title that doesn't describe the problem. It's unlikely to be of use to anyone in the future, much less to any of the people who upvoted it.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 18:40
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    @CodyGray if you want discussion, use screenshots, like it has been done since forever.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 19:05
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    @KevinB: There's a whole separate Meta question that you can raise that point on, you know. All that is needed is just some participation with others who seem to disagree with your viewpoint that this question must be deleted. Know that I'm not hard against deletion of any kind; I just prefer justification for those kinds of actions. Deleting content shouldn't be done as lightly as it is today.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 21:57
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    @Braiam As a user who can't see deleted content: Screenshots are a poor substitute. It prevents me from seeing the history, for example. It also prevents visually impaired users from joining the discussion. Commented Jun 10, 2021 at 4:33
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    @ModusTollens I'm also a user that haven't been able to see deleted content since forever on SO... you ain't missing much. Also, history is usually given on the question if and when it's relevant. All in all, the argument is flimsy at best.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 10, 2021 at 11:39
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    @Braiam What if I want to see the history of the question to prove my point on the question, but I can't see it? What if someone cannot see the image because imgur is blocked for them? There's a reason we don't like images of code. A question under discussion should not be hidden.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Jun 10, 2021 at 16:09
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    @KevinB What if imgur is blocked for someone? I shouldn't have to ask, I should be able to see if by default.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Jun 10, 2021 at 18:07
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    @10Rep - more so, it is blocked for people, for example in China
    – 0Valt
    Commented Jun 10, 2021 at 18:13
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    @KevinB - I'll earn mine in time, don't worry. What I, however, do not understand is how come you think "everyone else" earned it? There are plenty of users with a couple of old popular posts that never cared about moderation, yet they have the privilege. I am a supporter of reasonable restrictions but come on, moderation should not depend on something passively accumulated. What's more, can get elected IRL with less time and effort than it takes to view deleted questions. I maintain a firm stance that restricting deleted posts to 10K is unreasonable.
    – 0Valt
    Commented Jun 10, 2021 at 21:09
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Regarding whether it's reasonable to expect delete voters to read the comments...

Yes, you should be reading the entire page before voting to delete.

The help center for the 10k privileges says (emphasis added):

When should I delete questions?

Closed questions that are of no lasting value whatsoever should be deleted.

Before voting to delete, please check whether there are any good answers; if so, then the question should be flagged for moderator attention as a potential merge candidate. We don't like to lose great answers!

In order to determine if the question is "of no lasting value whatsoever," you need to read the question, any answers, and the comments to ensure that there's no valuable information there. Information in comments is exactly why the Roomba takes comments into account when deciding whether to delete unanswered zero-score questions. Delete voters should also be taking this into account when deciding whether to delete content.

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    What you refer to the "the entire page"? Do comments, which are second class citizen, reach the bar? Or only the question and answers themselves?
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 10, 2021 at 11:41
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    @Braiam You should generally read the entire post, including comments, so that you don't miss any important info. Just because the docs don't specifically mention reading comments doesn't mean one should just delete questions like that. Even the Roomba doesn't delete a post if it has more than 1 comment.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Jun 10, 2021 at 20:12
-7

I find this unacceptable. One should not have to read the comment section before voting to delete a question, even if it's preferable. And such harsh consequences are completely out of proportion. I might add that the instructions for deletion mentions nothing about this:

Wrong. Before voting to delete a question, one should check to see if a question is being discussed on meta. If it is, there's almost always going to be a comment that says "This post is being discussed on meta". Deleting a question is a very powerful and dangerous action.

Moreover, by deleting a question that's being discussed on meta, you are shutting the discussion down from a lot of users. If a <10k user wants to pitch in and give their opinion, they can no longer do so because the post is not viewable for them. They cannot interact with it, either.

Moderators are exception handlers; as such, they have to handle conflicts between the community. Since, at the moment, there is no way to prevent delete votes on a question, moderators would have to do the only thing left to them, that is, suspend the users who delete a question that's under discussion.

Also, the moderator did not suspend the users who originally delete voted the question. Instead, they gave a warning in bold that if you delete voted it after the message, you would get suspended. So it's OK if you accidentally delete vote a question that's being discussed on meta, because you won't get suspended immediately.

Read the moderators comment:

Moderator Note: We will not be deleting questions while they are under active discussion on Meta. Please note that having participated in the deletion of this question within the next 48 hours will likely result in the suspension of your account.

In other words, the suspension kicks in if you delete vote the question even after being warned.

And a question lock, as already mentioned, will prevent all interactions with the post. Unless the community is abusing these interactions (in which case mods will lock the post), it shouldn't be question locked to prevent delete voters from deleting. That's just not fair, to say the least. Interactions with the post can change meta opinion on a post.

Until a lock which prevents delete/close/reopen votes is implemented, the moderators have to enforce this rule.

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    It's not wrong that the deletion instructions for trusted users make no mention of any of this. Many questions get deleted by users daily. A lot of them get a delete vote within minutes of close The percentage that show up as being discussed on meta is likely very small
    – charlietfl
    Commented Jun 10, 2021 at 3:18
  • @charlietfl never said it wasn’t ok.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Jun 10, 2021 at 3:42
  • Just suggesting that your categorical "Wrong." references statements that are not wrong, part of which is correct in some docs and another part is opinion
    – charlietfl
    Commented Jun 10, 2021 at 4:36
  • @charlietfl alright but dont be surprised when you get suspended if you break this rule which the mod crafted. Also, did you read the rest of my answer?
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Jun 10, 2021 at 5:15
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NO

We already have the exact tool for this use case - question locks. If a moderator feels that a question is controversial enough that discussion must be held before anyone else jumps in and takes their own action, then the question needs to be locked. The FAQ post that I linked to even discusses these scenarios - that the lock is intended to stop close, etc. wars while a dispute is being resolved.

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    I'd like to be able to downvote the question (or answers) if they deserve being downvoted. A lock keeps us boxed out from doing that because a few people with higher privileges decided to abuse deletion.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 17:52
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    Content locks are completely inappropriate in cases like this, as they prevent both voting and editing. See: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/408289/…
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 17:53
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    @Makoto nothing stops you from voting as you wish after lock expires (that is, if you have a real long-standing motivation for that, and not an intermittent impulse caused by a heat of a meta discussion)
    – gnat
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 18:07
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    @gnat Nothing prevents voting to delete a question after the discussion ends, either, which is a point I have yet to see addressed.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 18:17
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    @zcoop98 the state pretty much every question that has been brought up in meta recently ends up in, directly prevents deletion regardless of what discussion occurs.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 18:18
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    If pretty much every question that has been brought up on Meta ends up being improved to the point where it is reopened and does not need to be deleted, then... it sounds like we do not have a problem.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 18:20
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    I fully understand that such a scenario is preferable, when your stance is keeping everything.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 18:21

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