183

Update: The outcome of this exercise led two major site changes*:

  1. Accepted answers are no longer pinned.
  2. A new way to sort answers. See Trending: A new answer sorting option for more information.

As I mentioned last month, the next step in the Outdated Answers initiative is an exercise for flagging outdated answers. Starting May 13, you may see temporary prompts on Stack Overflow that ask if an answer is outdated:

Is this answer outdated? Yes | No

The prompts have a chance to appear when the question is at least 60 days old and there are at least two answers to the question. If you indicate that the answer is outdated, a modal appears that asks you to select various reasons why the answer is outdated.

Screenshot of prompt that asks, "Is this answer outdated?"

Our goal is to collect a minimum of 1,000 answers that are flagged as outdated. We are showing the prompt 1% of the time, but may increase sampling if we aren't getting enough responses. The exercise will run for 1-4 weeks.

After the exercise concludes, we will analyze the data to determine:

  • whether outdatedness differs for the accepted answer (with the green checkmark) vs. other answers.

  • whether outdatedness differs by the answer's position on the page.

  • the distribution of outdated reasons and whether there are any correlations between them.

  • what keywords in the comments or the answer itself mention that it is outdated.

  • how sorting would be impacted if we were to unpin accepted answers.

  • correlations between recent upvotes/downvotes and outdatedness.

  • how we might weigh votes over time to maximize up-to-date answers appearing on top.

  • correlations between question age, answer age, last edited age and outdatedness.

  • correlations between specific tags and outdatedness.

The exercise will also provide an initial training sample for a potential machine-learning algorithm.

Additional research findings

Since last month's update, we conducted a survey and one-on-one interviews to get an initial read on how we might change answer sorting and other potential solutions.

When asked, "Should we change the way we sort answers?"

  • 47% of respondents preferred no change, whereas 53% of respondents preferred unpinning the outdated accepted answer and changing how we sort.

  • 32% wanted to sort by highest score.

  • 21% wanted to sort by time published and recent votes.

Chart showing sorting preferences as described above

We also asked users to evaluate the desirability of various potential solutions from "very undesirable" to "very desirable." After weighting the responses, the scores were as follows:

Potential solution Score
Allow tags on answers to show versioning (i.e., python-3.9.0) 0.47
Ability to flag outdated accepted answers manually 0.43
Adding an "out-of-date" banner to outdated accepted answers 0.43
Creating a new "legacy answer" status to preserve outdated accepted answers 0.41
Color-coding the outdated accepted answers 0.37
Create a new review process for updating outdated accepted answers 0.33

Chart showing desirability of various solutions as described above

Next steps: sorting experiment

After we finish analyzing results from the flagging exercise, we are planning an experiment where we will sort answers in different ways and ask users whether the top answer is the best answer. We will also track secondary metrics, such as copying, upvotes, downvotes and resorting to existing options (sorting by active, oldest or votes). Stay tuned for more details as we get closer to launch.


*: This info came from @RyanM's helpful comment.

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  • 65
    I would recommend adjusting the first option's wording. Instead of "newer, more efficient answers exist", I would say "newer, more correct answers exist". Outdated answers could have been more efficient than newer 'more correct' answers, and it is often the case that 'efficiency' has nothing to do with the issue.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 12, 2021 at 17:50
  • 29
    Perhaps "newer, more efficient or correct answers exist" would be better, @TylerH . For some areas (such as SQL), efficiency has a lot to do with the issue.
    – Thom A
    Commented May 12, 2021 at 17:54
  • 2
    @Larnu Fair point. I agree as long it isn't confusing to users who would not choose that open due to efficiency not being relevant or a newer, more correct answer being less efficient while still being more correct, etc.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 12, 2021 at 17:55
  • 6
    Who will receive these prompts? Is it anyone? Anyone logged in? Anyone with the Flag Post privilege? Users with x + reputation?
    – Thom A
    Commented May 12, 2021 at 18:20
  • 31
    "[...] The exercise will run for 1-4 weeks." This is outrageously short for such an experiment, it should run for 6-8 weeks. ^_^
    – Laf
    Commented May 12, 2021 at 18:21
  • 5
    Discussing efficiency is a whole can of worms. Version A might run in 0.9 the time of version B, but take twice as long to read and understand, &/or be harder to adapt and maintain. If the program mostly sits there waiting to respond to user input, running speed may be less relevant than how much developer time it consumes.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented May 12, 2021 at 20:09
  • 27
    I know things move and change really fast here in the exciting world of computing but, even so, ... is 60 days the half-life of an answer when it might get outdated? I would have thought ... 1yr as a threshold ... maybe even 2 ...
    – davidbak
    Commented May 12, 2021 at 20:28
  • 19
    It's somewhat disappointing that you're only showing it 1% of the time. If you showed it more, you could've gotten 1000 answers in max 2 days - there's a lot of outdated content. Commented May 13, 2021 at 8:35
  • 12
    @AnitaTaylor - re: 6-8 weeks and Laf's comment - meta.stackexchange.com/a/19514/786798 :)
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 13, 2021 at 11:28
  • 5
    @Laf Thanks for clarifying -- I didn't know about the 6-8 weeks joke!
    – Anita Taylor StaffMod
    Commented May 13, 2021 at 16:28
  • 3
    @AnitaTaylor - NP :) I like that SE tries to work with the community on this and the data-driven approach (although I still wish the community would be more involved in the actual decision-making process)
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 13, 2021 at 18:21
  • 3
    "...whereas 53% of respondents preferred unpinning the outdated accepted answer and changing how we sort." It seems that the day that the accepted answer will be unpinned comes closer and closer one inch at a time. Commented May 14, 2021 at 9:53
  • 5
    Given these options, what do I do with accepted answers that are incorrect and have been incorrect since they were posted? Are these not “outdated”? Does “Code is generally broken” apply? Commented May 15, 2021 at 5:36
  • 13
    Legacy technologies still exist because they're still used. What was the reason of adding a removal reason for those? This could remove entire tags from the system.
    – Mast
    Commented May 15, 2021 at 9:47
  • 3
    @FelipeAlamedaA - not sure what you mean? Questions having no accepted answers do not entail there are not enough good answers there. It just means the OP never bothered to accept one for various reasons (and one of the most common is that they don't care). It is actually one of the reasons why the whole "accept" thing is not useful.
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 19:15

14 Answers 14

85

I think all that will come out of this experiment will fall into "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" category.

You need to have experience in the technology in order to properly judge the answer.

If we take that number of users with less than 200 reputation points vastly outnumbers the number of all other users, results will be skewed by design.

Even if results of this experiment are separated by the users' reputation, there is still high chance that combination of high(er) reputation users that will be in position to answer the survey and are also experts in the technology will be rather small.

Without giving users ability to invoke survey on particular answers, I don't see how any good conclusions can be drawn from this kind of random experiments.

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  • 53
    Reputation is not a measure of "experience with a technology". Experts can be new users too. Or simply not have a lot of unicorn points.
    – yivi
    Commented May 13, 2021 at 8:39
  • 8
    @yivi I know that reputation alone is not a good measure, I even mentioned that just by being the high rep user does not mean that you will be expert in the answer technology (that also goes the other way around). But that is also the whole point of my answer - there is no way that results of the survey will be significant and good base for making conclusions.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented May 13, 2021 at 8:47
  • 11
    This is why you should also ask for the level of experience of their topic of a user when they are evaluating quality of the content they are evaluating.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 13, 2021 at 10:59
  • 29
    Perhaps we should limit the dialog to users with at least a bronze badge in one of the tags in the question? Doesn't prevent people from retagging a question just so they can hammer an answer, but bronze holders should mostly be mature enough to not do that sort of thing.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented May 13, 2021 at 12:22
  • 4
    Unless I am mistaken this isn't about implementing the feature already but only about conducting experiments and assessing their outcomes. I think it's a very healthy practice in product discovery (and science in general). What are your evidences that this experiment is meant to fail? As @yivi pointed out reputation is not a strong and reliable metric and I think even yourself would agree with that. I personally don't see a strong reason to not even try but I am happy to be proven wrong. Commented May 13, 2021 at 12:42
  • 5
    @customcommander If your experiment is not prepared well, results will be skewed, and your conclusions will probably be flawed and your final feature implementation will suffer because of it. Yes, reputation is not strong evidence of expertise, but that does not mean that lack of it will yield good results. At the end you get "blind leading blind situation".
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented May 13, 2021 at 13:27
  • 2
    If your experiment is not prepared well — Correct me if I am wrong but I think you're suggesting that that is the case here. What are your evidences that it is? Yes, reputation is not strong evidence of expertise, but that does not mean that lack of it will yield good results. — I don't think we're leaning one way or another. Only that reputation isn't a good indicator either way. Which is why I don't see a strong reason to vigorously reject the whole thing. Commented May 13, 2021 at 13:57
  • 5
    @customcommander Outdated answers are problem because vast majority of developers landing on some Q/A pair are not knowledgeable enough to pick right answer, beyond the top most one. If you have the knowledge, then you will not have problem finding and using correct answer for some specific thing you don't know how to do (even experts don't know every aspect in their domain). But this experiment is using whole userbase, where majority is in absolutely no position to objectively judge the answers. You can get reliable data out of such survey only by sprinkling some magic dust all over - GIGO.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented May 13, 2021 at 14:11
  • 7
    @yivi I agree it's not a guarantee, but there is a fairly strong positive correlation. Letting anyone, even unregistered users, do this (especially for an experiment) seems counter-intuitive. It should be shown all the time to registered, logged-in users only, IMO also require at least some significant reputation (e.g. 125) and a tag score of 1 or higher in one of the tags used on the question. Just letting anyone respond will require a lot of unnecessary effort in reviewing/filtering out bad data points, which ultimately leaves them w/ less than the 1k they wanted.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 13, 2021 at 14:36
  • 1
    "I don't see how any good conclusions can be drawn from this kind of random experiments." It depends. For example one could get an estimation of how many answers are outdated approximately. Although for this it would also have to include questions with a single answer where the single answer is outdated and yes, unqualified answers could just add noise, but with more statistics one could maybe check for this. Maybe judging the outdatedness of an answer doesn't require that much knowledge. Or there could be audits, i.e. non-outdated answers included ... Commented May 14, 2021 at 9:56
  • 6
    The issue of outdated accepted answers should only be handled by those with experience in the tag, especially since these are going to be edge case scenarios. I agree with Ian's assessment of needing a Bronze badge, as well as the overall outlook that without some sort of filter, simply allowing the full power of millions of users access to this is unlikely to yield quality results.
    – Travis J
    Commented May 16, 2021 at 18:29
  • 4
    Rep doesn't mean much. Gold badges have historically been a much better way to measure domain knowledge.
    – Lundin
    Commented May 17, 2021 at 9:14
  • 2
    It's also putting more work on the high rep users which isn't looked at favourably. I'd much rather a comment saying hey this doesn't work on X-OS anymore. It'd be better to use the existing data to find: out of date, no longer working and obsolete answers. We're not Amazon Turk! Commented May 18, 2021 at 3:05
  • I didn't read all of the discussion here but just wanted to add my input. I've been generally happy with voting behavior on questions and answers on SO over time. And voting is not restricted to experts. So I think it will be fine as long as outdated answer feedback is considered based on quantity. Commented May 20, 2021 at 17:12
73

We should add a "Don't Know" option.

As Dalija pointed out above, responses from users who aren't familiar with the subject domain are not helpful. It might seem like the obvious thing for a user to do, if they don't have such knowledge, to simply ignore the prompt; but practically, it is a prompt on the screen, and I believe many users (myself included) would be inclined to click on it, and pick something. And who knows what they would pick?

Perhaps "No" would be more common than "Yes", but either way, the results would become skewed. Offering a "Don't Know" option could help to resolve this issue.

4
  • I often see “Is this page helpful?” prompts elsewhere on the internet. I never click on them, until I’ve fully read and understood the article or tutorial or whatever. I don’t think users will feel compelled to pick a response without understanding the answer first. Commented May 15, 2021 at 5:59
  • 19
    @Sebastian Plenty of them would, just to make the modal go away. I'm glad there are still people that actually read before voting, but I'm not so sure we're even in the majority anymore.
    – Mast
    Commented May 15, 2021 at 9:51
  • 3
    I would've hoped simply not voting would be enough...
    – TylerH
    Commented May 21, 2021 at 7:59
  • 1
    @Mast here's the kicker: we never were.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 31, 2021 at 21:05
59

Newer, more efficient answers exist

I feel like this could be misinterpreted as something like "there are better potential answers" or "better answers exist somewhere else".

I think it should explicitly say that those answers exist in the same post. Also, "Newer" is a bit ambiguous here. Does it mean that the other answers were posted at a later date or that they're more up-to-date? If it's the former (which appears to be the case), why does it matter if an answer was posted before or after the accepted one if it's more up-to-date or more efficient?

I suggest something along the lines of:

Other answers here are more efficient and/or more up-to-date

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  • 19
    I suspect it also gets misinterpreted as "I wish there were better answers because I don't like what this answer is telling me"
    – DavidW
    Commented May 14, 2021 at 8:52
  • 1
    This site is filled with bad, outdated answers with poor discovery mechanisms to find them and zero incentives to fix them. We have the system we have designed for.
    – serraosays
    Commented May 14, 2021 at 14:30
  • 2
    Moreover, "more efficient" is often a matter of opinion and interpretation -- more efficient how? Authoring experience? Memory? Processor? Disk? Commented May 17, 2021 at 10:57
  • I'd strike out the more efficient part
    – Wolf
    Commented May 25, 2021 at 13:38
45

I wanted to remark specifically on this comment:

Anyone {can flag an answer as outdated}-- whether they are logged in or anonymous. No rep or privilege requirements.

Opening this to anyone seems an odd/bad choice, especially as this is going to affect ordering of answers. Non-Logged in users, or even those without the privilege to vote up publically, can't affect the order of which answers are displayed by score, so why can they for outdated answer flags? This could be open to abuse.

Is this the long term plan, and that anyone viewing the site can do so? If so, I would suggest that is not the right solution. I would personally suggest it should be earned along side the other privileges you earn at 15 reputation: Flagging Posts and Upvoting. Users who haven't minimally contributed to the website should not be able to control/game the display order of answers, and certainly anonymous users should not be able to.

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  • 24
    We didn't gate this data-gathering exercise by rep because the vast majority of SO users are anonymous consumers of our content. Many of them are experienced developers who have valid opinions re: whether an answer is outdated. At this stage, we are just gathering data. The outdated flags do not affect sorting and we haven't made any long-term product decisions yet.
    – Anita Taylor StaffMod
    Commented May 13, 2021 at 16:26
  • 3
    I would even go further and require a silver badge in one of the tags of the question. Commented May 14, 2021 at 7:13
  • 17
    @AnitaTaylor "...the vast majority of SO users are anonymous consumers of our content." This kind of feels very important to me. Thank you for writing it down. I feel that emphasis should shift more away from question askers (like in the past years) to consumers of content and the creation and preservation of good content. Commented May 14, 2021 at 10:00
  • 1
    @AnitaTaylor - While anonymous users have the chance to be experienced developers, they do not understand the concept they are searching on (or they would not be searching on it). I see asking this class of user to perform this kind of curation leading to many marking an answer as outdated. Simply because they are unable to get it to work as they sort out their understanding of the concept. Your algorithms will need to be able to deal with a high occurrence of false positives to counteract this.
    – Vaccano
    Commented May 19, 2021 at 18:08
36

appear when the accepted answer is at least 60 days old

I'm active in .NET, C++ and Python and see outdated answers.

For the .NET framework we have about 1 year between versions:

  • .NET 1.1 outdated .NET 1.0 after ~1 year
  • .NET 2.0 outdated .NET 1.1 after ~1 year
  • .NET 3.0 outdated .NET 2.0 after ~1 year
  • .NET 3.5 outdated .NET 3.0 after ~1 year
  • .NET 4.0 outdated .NET 3.5 after ~2 years
  • .NET 4.5 outdated .NET 4.0 after ~2 years
  • .NET 4.6 outdated .NET 4.5 after ~1 year
  • .NET 4.7 outdated .NET 4.6 after ~1 year
  • .NET 4.8 outdated .NET 4.7 after ~1 year

For C++ we have new versions every 3 years recently:

  • C++98
  • C++03
  • C++11
  • C++14
  • C++17
  • C++20

Python is in the range of 1 to 2 years:

  • Python 3.0 in 2008
  • Python 3.1 in 2009
  • Python 3.2 in 2011
  • Python 3.3 in 2012
  • Python 3.4 in 2014
  • Python 3.5 in 2015
  • Python 3.6 in 2016
  • Python 3.7 in 2018
  • Python 3.8 in 2019
  • Python 3.9 in 2020

If we think an answer can be outdated after 60 days, then it's not to technology change. Instead the answer wasn't a good answer right away and it should never have received so many upvotes and should never have been accepted.

So IMHO we can either increase that period to ~1 year or decrease the period to 0 days so that we can immediately mark an answer as outdated even before it gets upvotes and accepted.

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  • 26
    There are other, slower-moving technologies where answers from 10 years ago are still entirely valid. Commented May 14, 2021 at 11:07
  • 2
    Tbf, there are edge-cases with this. Not everyone keeps up to date on unpublished updates, meaning someone could post an answer at an unfortunate time, where (for an instance) ~60 days later, a new version of the tech is published that makes the answer obsolete. A year is too much in that regard - I'd rather see 0 (or some number > 0 but substantially less than 60) over a year Commented May 14, 2021 at 11:09
  • ".NET 1.1 outdated .NET 1.0 after ~1 year" is there any redeeming quality to those answers? Ie. would a hello world or other simple operation still be valid today?
    – Braiam
    Commented May 14, 2021 at 11:16
  • @Braiam yes, that would only concern new classes in the .NET framework or new language features. So it makes the situation even more long-termed. Commented May 14, 2021 at 11:18
  • 1
    If a new answer garners enough upvotes to be problematic while being incredibly outdated... maybe it isn't actually incredibly outdated.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 14, 2021 at 18:42
  • 1
    There were barely any substantive changes from .NET 1.0 to 1.1 (it was mostly bug fixes - it really was a 1.1 release). Versions 2.0, 3.0, 3.5 and 4.0 were major releases. There have been some substantial changes in the 4.x train of release, but that's mostly incremental. Each of those those releases made old answers stale (particularly 2.0 (generics), 3.0 (WCF, WPF, Workflow) and 3.5 (LINQ). I don't know when it happened (I was a C++ programmer in 90s, I loosely followed its development in the aughts, but when I read a modern C++ program today it looks about as foreign as APL.
    – Flydog57
    Commented May 14, 2021 at 19:47
  • 7
    This exactly! 60 days mainly, if not only, applies to 'which JavaScript framework should I use today?'
    – GolezTrol
    Commented May 16, 2021 at 17:15
  • 6
    The problem with C++ specifically is that the newer versions aren't necessarily better. Just because a newer C++ standard allows for a different way to do something, it doesn't automatically mean that the older way is outdated and the newer way correct. In some cases like withdrawn features (auto_ptr etc) then you can definitely say that they are outdated and flawed by design. But in other cases like how to write loops, iterate over various containers, using C++11 auto etc, things turn wildly subjective. You'll end up with user A's subjective opinions vs user B's subjective opinions.
    – Lundin
    Commented May 17, 2021 at 9:19
  • 1
    The C++ case @Lundin mentions also isn't helped by a large number of new features tending to be variants of, syntactic sugar for, or wrappers for older features, nor by the many cases where different features excel in certain aspects but are objectively worse in others. It's relatively common that, e.g., the older way is more performant but the newer way is significantly safer and easier to read, or that the newer way will just get turned into the older way when it reaches the compiler anyways. Commented May 19, 2021 at 7:44
35

When asked, "Should we change the way we sort answers?"

47% of respondents preferred no change,

I'm not exactly sure how the interview was conducted but if you asked me that and I was just a casual user of Stack Overflow, I would also say that I like it fine as it is. There is no need to change.

However, if you were to show an interviewee an example of a pinned outdated answer with a newer and more highly upvoted answer below it, and then rephrase the question as "Should we keep the accepted answer pinned above the more highly voted answer?", it's possible that the results might be different. Of course meta is different than the general user base, but 668 upvote to 80 downvote on Please unpin the accepted answer from the top seems to indicate a different ratio when more context is given.

This is just a comment on the surveying techniques. I'm glad to see that you are collecting data and looking for ways to make positive changes.

3
  • 9
    Agreed. It is sort of mixing two questions: "do you want change" and "which of these algorithms is best?" People are generally not in favour of change, but that doesn't mean that the current method is the best. Commented May 17, 2021 at 1:55
  • 4
    The first answer should have been: No, keep the accepted answers pinned at the top even if it's outdated and there are other answers with more upvotes.
    – T-Me
    Commented May 19, 2021 at 9:18
  • I wonder whether it would be hard to make the sorting configurable in the user preferences. Commented May 25, 2021 at 9:19
27

You can mark spam as outdated:

And LOL... I even submitted a feedback

The answer in the screenshot is here.

I believe it makes more sense to hide the feedback stuff from deleted answers, don't you think?

1
  • 14
    Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Much appreciated.
    – Anita Taylor StaffMod
    Commented May 17, 2021 at 14:11
22

The prompts have a chance to appear when the accepted answer is at least 60 days old and there are at least two answers to the question.

I can understand the prompts have a chance to appear when an answer is 60 days old, but why is the prompt showing in a new answer? For example I answered yesterday to an old question.

enter image description here

Also attached screenshot.

4
  • 7
    I actually thought that was the prompt and was about to click no...
    – 0xLogN
    Commented May 16, 2021 at 0:54
  • I think it checks the question is at least 60 days old
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented May 20, 2021 at 16:31
  • 1
    I think it checks accepted answer at least 60 days old, as per quoted statement..
    – turivishal
    Commented May 20, 2021 at 16:37
  • 2
    It's also worth noting that as a comment on another answer here says: "Just because an answer is posted now doesn’t mean that it’s the most up-to-date answer."
    – V2Blast
    Commented Jul 30, 2021 at 21:10
17

While I totally agree that finding outdated answers is very important and support this initiative, I must say that I'm a little confused about one of suggested reasons for answer being outdated. Namely this one:

Code is generally broken

I don't really get what this means. Not working in new revision of language/framework/library is already covered by other option. So, somehow, completely broken answer managed to get accepted? Even if it's so, it was broken from the very start, so, while useless (but not to asker?..) it isn't really outdated.

To put it shortly: how did passage of time made code generally broken? I only see how this would be used by someone not understanding what exactly caused code to stop working and not caring to investigate, making this reason act as "catch 'em all" option.

Besides, not all answers even contain code. Should this be written as "Answer is generally wrong" instead?

5
  • 2
    I like to use this extreme statement to convey what "accepted" means: This answer is so wrong that I finally understand where I messed up, this answer helped me the most, I accept it. So the whole exercise is to weed out actions by weird users like me.
    – rene
    Commented May 15, 2021 at 5:39
  • 4
    I expect the code is generally broken got in to please the Undefined Behavior fans in the C and C++ tags.
    – rene
    Commented May 15, 2021 at 5:40
  • 3
    For example, Vector and Calendar classes in Java are broken - any answer that uses them should be deprecated in favour of ones that use their replacement classes.
    – Bohemian Mod
    Commented May 22, 2021 at 22:45
  • 2
    @Bohemian While I see the point here, please note that it doesn't make answer outdated (if they were broken the entire way, as I assume), merely wrong. And while it is a major related issue that can be solved the same way, you can't just call answer outdated when it isn't. Commented May 25, 2021 at 10:50
  • 4
    @val at the time the classes were broken, but the community wasn’t aware they were broken. It wasn’t until some years later that it was widely realised and recognised they were broken (sadly, academia didn’t get the email - they are still using 20 years out of date material that advocates Vector for example). At the time of writing, the answers were “correct” as judged by the community at the time, but now “correct” has shifted away leaving the accepted answers stranded in a sea of fallacy.
    – Bohemian Mod
    Commented May 25, 2021 at 10:57
11

When clicking "Yes" on the outdated prompt, and then in the reasons menu choosing Cancel, the prompt will be shown as "Thanks for your feedback on this answer" even though..... No feedback was yet given.

It should probably bring back the original prompt so we can either choose "No" or have the option to choose a reason again (in case the cancel was mistakenly selected).

3
  • 3
    This is by design. We record the "Yes" or "No" feedback immediately on click, and then record the reason afterwards. If someone clicks Cancel in the Reasons modal, we close the modal and don't collect a reason.
    – Anita Taylor StaffMod
    Commented May 18, 2021 at 14:11
  • 5
    @AnitaTaylor so you can't change your mind or correct an accidential click?
    – T-Me
    Commented May 19, 2021 at 9:25
  • 5
    @AnitaTaylor T-Me brings a very good point. Someone might click "Yes", then after reading the reasons, they realize that their interpretation of "outdated" was incorrect. If you want to collect the "Yes" feedback regardless of the reason, then you should have something like a "My reason is not listed" option and still keep the "Cancel" button which doesn't trigger any feedback.
    – 41686d6564
    Commented May 19, 2021 at 18:19
7

I am not seeing this when I use Stack Overflow on desktop. Is this a bug?

When I open Stack Overflow on mobile, I can see it almost on every question. I don't understand why I can't see it on some questions, but I can see this option on 90% of old answers. When I want to mark some answers as outdated I have to switch to my phone and open it there. I tried switching off all userscripts, but I don't see any difference. Even when I switch to mobile view on desktop I still can't see this option.

To clarify, I can see it on new answers, on my own answers, on non-accepted answers, but I can only see it when I open Stack Overflow on mobile phone. I have never seen that button when using from my computer.

11
  • 1
    The first and second sentence in your second paragraph mention 'questions', but this should only be appearing under answers.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 20, 2021 at 15:15
  • 1
    @TylerH Well, it either shows on all answers or none of them under any single question. I assume it depends on the question. I didn't want to imply that it should be shown under questions, rather all answers under the question.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented May 20, 2021 at 15:38
  • oh wait, what? It shows on all answers? That is definitely a bug, I would think, but it wasn't clear from your answer that that's what you're seeing.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 20, 2021 at 15:43
  • @TylerH Ok, I admit I didn't read the announcement. I just noticed that there's a cool button on almost all answers, but it shows only on mobile. I marked already some of them as outdated. I don't really know why it doesn't appear on some answers, but it's either all answers under a question or none of them.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented May 20, 2021 at 15:49
  • 1
    @Dharman We use sampling to determine whether or not to show the prompt. It won't show up for most questions, and it has nothing to do with desktop vs. mobile
    – Anita Taylor StaffMod
    Commented May 20, 2021 at 16:57
  • @AnitaTaylor That's definitely not what I see. I see it on a huge majority of questions. I have not counted it but it's definitely much more on mobile than on desktop. As I have said I have never seen that button on desktop, despite it being my primary device, and I have casted tens of outdated votes on mobile. If I want to mark an answer as outdated I have to switch over to mobile.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented May 20, 2021 at 17:47
  • 1
    @AnitaTaylor is the sampling per session or per view? If it's per-session, then Dharman fell into the group that is shown. But that doesn't explain why prompts appear on answers less than 60 days old or the inconsistency of the prompt appearing.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 20, 2021 at 17:58
  • 2
    @Braiam Sampling is done per device session, using properties of the request and not the account. So it's possible that the same user would see the page on a mobile device but not their desktop (or vice versa). If they see it on any answer on their device, they'll see it on all qualifying answers.
    – Brian Nickel Staff
    Commented May 20, 2021 at 20:01
  • 3
    With regards to seeing it on answers that are less than 60 days old, whether to display the prompt is decided at the question level. If the question qualifies, all answers will have the prompt regardless of age. Where 60 days comes in is that a question has to have 2 or more answers, one of which has to be an accepted answer 60 days old or older.
    – Brian Nickel Staff
    Commented May 20, 2021 at 20:03
  • 2
    @BrianNickel Ahh, that makes it much more clear. Perhaps it should have been stated in the question post.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented May 20, 2021 at 20:05
  • 1
    @Dharman Agreed, that's a critical difference. I've updated the question to reflect that change.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 21, 2021 at 8:05
7

Despite my thoughts that this is a very positive change, it may be tempting for devs like me to mark answers as outdated to gain some more reputation.

Take for example this trivial question: Using JSON File in Android App Resources

My answer will soon be the most upvoted, just because it uses Kotlin. So I could very easily jump to the top if I mark the accepted (but still valid and working) answer in Java as outdated.

The situation will be even worse with iOS answers (well, thank you Apple for breaking every single line in every Swift version). Objective-C answers will likely be marked as outdated too, despite people still needing them sometimes.

I would like to see this as an option inside the Flag dialog, but only give the permission to flag accepted answers to moderators gold badge holders only or move them to a review queue.

2
  • 1
    I get the point about potential "abuse", but restricting it to "moderators only" assumes our moderators are subject matter experts on every possible field, so that any one of them can handle said flags. This isn't the case, as mods are not expected to be SMEs. Maybe having a review queue or including gold badge holders would be better? Commented May 23, 2021 at 3:11
  • @GinoMempin totally agree with you, so edited my post Commented May 23, 2021 at 11:46
1

I can only speak in terms of Android SDK, where there's also new versions every now and then, which may occasionally introduce vast behavioral changes ...and it may merely be a personal preference to consider something as "outdated", because while the hardware devices may still operate, the code still has a purpose.

And when it comes to providing backwards-compatibility, such presumably "outdated" answers may still be applicable for some, even if it may only be the people who still have to support these API level, for whatever reason.

I personally think that it's pointless to flag outdated answers, simply because each of them has a timestamp already, which ordinary suffices for me to determine their age and level of applicability. Flagging the currently valid answer might be rather helpful, because these often may go under.

1
  • 4
    “simply because each of them has a timestamp already” — Just because an answer is posted now doesn’t mean that it’s the most up-to-date answer. Commented May 26, 2021 at 20:25
-17

This is a nice attempt to solve the problem but you have a bigger tool in the box: rep points.

Why not incentivize behavior - something like a 10 point bonus for answering a question with 10 or more up votes and last answer was 5 years or more? Something like that. If you want better answers, give users an incentive to update questions that look outdated.

14
  • 29
    Just because last answer was written long ago, does not automatically mean it is outdated. Incentivizing posting duplicate answers to questions that don't need additional answers is bad idea.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented May 14, 2021 at 7:23
  • 6
    There's also a way to abuse this. The answer could be a duplicate of another answer, which would be 20 free rep for copying content (or paraphrasing content, which often gets to pass under the radar). If you add vote requirements, that still doesn't mean the new answer brings anything to the table, which still risks awarding rep for adding noise (and noise is what the entire Q&A model attempts to avoid) Commented May 14, 2021 at 11:06
  • 2
    Every time I recommend any system to help people earn more points, everyone just trashes it. The system is broken for new users and it's why the site often feels stale. A lot of you need to rethink your priors.
    – serraosays
    Commented May 14, 2021 at 14:25
  • 2
    And further, if we don't generally think a lot of the site is outdated and needs new answers - as @DalijaPrasnikar is suggesting - why are we even having this conversation? As I understand it - SO wants people to go on a treasure hunt and find a bunch of outdated answers but with no prize. But incentivizing fixing old answers with an incentive is...a terrible idea based on the downvotes? And then everyone will be surprised the site has a lot of outdated answers. Just wanted to make sure I followed this logic.
    – serraosays
    Commented May 14, 2021 at 14:26
  • 3
    @serraosays - if you want to know why such proposals are trashed is because a lot of people understand that the rep-based system is flawed at its core and adding bells and whistles to further the inflation of points will not help in the slightest. It needs emergency surgery, not a liftup.
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 14, 2021 at 14:54
  • 1
    @serraosays - I am only saying that you direct your frustration with the site to the wrong people. It is SE that owns the site, and they make the decisions. Giving them another idea to cop out of significant changes to the gamification system by churning out some extra imaginary numbers will only lead to more of what you say you are tired of.
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 14, 2021 at 15:02
  • 8
    If your only motivation is reputation, then you are doing it wrong.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented May 14, 2021 at 15:06
  • 2
    @serraosays - and another note - you know why things are going at a snail's pace? And why conversations like this lead to nowhere? Because there are no processes in place that would make them fruitless. The community cannot vote up a proposal and be sure it is included in the roadmap. We cannot vote down another and be sure it will not be implemented. There is no innovation because there is nothing that the community can do about it. So please, stop labelling people as "boomers" (how considerate) and help change things for the better.
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 14, 2021 at 15:34
  • The gatekeepers like @DalijaPrasnikar make me ill. I've contributed so much effort to this site voting answers up, answering people's questions here and there - and if you question why new users would want to be validated for doing similar the response is 'youre doing it wrong'. Thanks for the info. And it's not me labeling this site for boomers (hell im old enough), it's my students. Everyone ought to wake up to how the next gen of programmers feels about this place.
    – serraosays
    Commented May 14, 2021 at 16:37
  • 7
    "Gatekeepers" maintain quality of this site. Volunteering their time to keep site clean (without gaining any reputation for that work) and also providing their knowledge. Without maintaining quality, which is already bad enough, this site is not useful for anyone. SO averages about 10000 new users daily, and about 8000 questions. With those numbers that is simply not much room for errors and adding wrong incentives.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented May 14, 2021 at 17:33
  • Some problems are more elaborated here: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/251758/…
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented May 14, 2021 at 17:34
  • 8
    I have used Stack Overflow for years, without having an account. You don't need an account nor reputation to use the site.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented May 14, 2021 at 17:36
  • I hope things stay as they are, that's how you all want it.
    – serraosays
    Commented May 16, 2021 at 23:08
  • 6
    Whilst I appreciate the sentiment, reputation is not going to solve this problem. The problem is that outdated accepted answers remain pinned. Incentivising more answers might be good (if they would add anything), but would not get them to the top beyond the accepted mark. That's what this whole excersie is about. This, thus, can be helpful after an accepted answer has been unpinned, but until then it doesn't do much I'm afraid.
    – Adriaan
    Commented May 17, 2021 at 14:46

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