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In February, we announced an initiative to address outdated answers on Stack Overflow. Here's an update on what we've done since then and what we're working on now.

TL;DR: We are still conducting various forms of research, but we see unpinning the accepted answer as our first key area to explore. And we heard you loud and clear about not deleting answers.

Survey results: how you determine that accepted answers are outdated

In March 2021, we added a few questions to our Site Satisfaction survey, an ongoing monthly survey that asks randomly selected users how they feel about Stack Overflow. We focused on the accepted answer — the answer with the green checkmark. Based in part on your feedback, we asked:

  1. How often do you see this type of outdated answer on Stack Overflow?
Never Rarely Sometimes Often Always
Answer no longer works due to updates to language or framework, etc.
Answers still work, but there is a newer, better way to achieve the same end
Answer code is generally broken
Answers that now pose security risks or are dangerous to use
Answers that are valuable to legacy technologies, but aren't valuable to newer technologies.
  1. Please select how important each of the following factors are when you are determining if an answer is outdated.
header 1 Not at all important Slightly important Moderately important Very important Extremely important
Timestamps: when it was answered originally
Timestamps: when it was last edited
Total downvote/upvote count
Newer answers with a high vote score
Comments say the answer is outdated
There is a notation on the answer that says it is outdated
Other answers refer to the outdated answers
High reputation users say the answer is outdated
Code is generally broken
Answer references, citations, and documentation (e.g., outdated syntax, outdated documentation links, etc.)

Here are the results, from 963 respondents.

The first graph shows how often users saw each type of outdated answer, from "never" to "always."

Graph - How often users see certain types of outdated answers on Stack Overflow

Here is the most common response for each type of outdated answer.

  • Answer no longer works due to updates to language or framework, etc.: sometimes, followed closely by rarely
  • Answers still work, but there is a newer better way to achieve the same result: sometimes, followed by often
  • Answer code is generally broken: rarely was most popular by far
  • Answers that now pose security risks or are dangerous to use: rarely, followed by never
  • Answers that are valuable to legacy technologies, but aren't valuable to newer technologies: sometimes, followed by rarely

The second graph weighs the frequency at which users saw each type of answer to produce a weighted average.

Graph - Weighted results for how often users see certain types of outdated answer

  • Answers still work, but there is a newer better way to achieve the same result: 0.46
  • Answer no longer works due to updates to language or framework, etc.: 0.34
  • Answers that are valuable to legacy technologies, but aren't valuable to newer technologies: 0.33
  • Answer code is generally broken: 0.21
  • Answers that now pose security risks or are dangerous to use: 0.16

The third graph shows the frequency at which users rated various factors important in determining if an answer is outdated, from "not at all important" to "extremely important."

Graph - How important certain factors are when determining if an answer is outdated

  • Timestamps: when it was answered originally: very important, followed by moderately important and extremely important
  • Timestamps: when it was last edited: very important, followed by moderately important
  • Total downvote/upvote count: moderately important, followed by slightly important
  • Newer answers with a high vote score: very important, followed by extremely important
  • Comments say the answer is outdated: very important, followed by extremely important
  • There is a notation on the answer that says it is outdated: very important, closely followed by extremely important
  • Other answers refer to the outdated answers: moderately important, followed by very important
  • High reputation users say the answer is outdated: very important, followed by moderately important
  • Code is generally broken: very important, followed by extremely important
  • Answer references, citations, and documentation (e.g., outdated syntax, outdated documentation links, etc.): very important, followed closely by moderately important

The final graph weighs the frequency at which users chose each level of importance to produce a weighted average.

Graph - Weighted average -- How important certain factors are when determining if an answer is outdated

  • There is a notation on the answer that says it is outdated: 0.31
  • Comments say the answer is outdated: 0.31
  • Newer answers with a high vote score: 0.30
  • Code is generally broken: 0.29
  • Timestamps: when it was answered originally: 0.27
  • Timestamps: when it was last edited: 0.26
  • Answer references, citations, and documentation (e.g., outdated syntax, outdated documentation links, etc.): 0.26
  • High reputation users say the answer is outdated: 0.24
  • Other answers refer to the outdated answers: 0.21
  • Total downvote/upvote count: 0.20

We analyzed the Feb 2021 Meta post

We categorized your answers and comments into common themes for what you want to see happen. These are some of your top concerns/suggestions:

  • Don't delete legacy answers

  • Accepted answers should not appear first

  • Introduce an “out-of-date” banner to be applied to outdated answers

  • Allow version tagging on answers (e.g., Java 4, Java 7, Java 56)

  • Add new sort/filter options 

Happening now: new survey running

Starting March 31 and running through April 15, we added a few questions to the monthly survey to further validate some of the Meta suggestions with a larger audience. (Please note: we are not soliciting feedback on these questions.)

  1. Should we change the way we sort answers?

    1. No, I like the current sort (i.e., accepted answer always first).

    2. Yes, sort all answers, including accepted answers, by highest score. 

    3. Yes, sort all answers, including accepted answers, by time published and recent votes.

    4. Other (please specify) ____________

  2. We want to make changes to the site to help find and deal with outdated answers. We have a range of solutions in the table below. How would you evaluate the desirability of each potential solution below?

header 1 Very Undesirable Undesirable Neutral Desirable Very Desirable
Ability to flag outdated accepted answers manually.
Color-coding the outdated accepted answers.
Adding an “out-of-date” banner to outdated accepted answers.
Allow tags on answers to show versioning (ie python-3.9.0).
Creating a new ‘legacy answer’ status to preserve outdated accepted answers.
Create a new review process for updating outdated accepted answers.

Coming soon: an exercise for flagging outdated accepted answers

In May, we plan to put temporary prompts on Stack Overflow that ask if the accepted answer is outdated and if the highest-scored, non-accepted answer is better than the accepted answer. The prompts will appear on questions where the accepted answer is 60 days or older and there are at least two answers on the post. 

Mockup of prompt that asks if an answer is outdated

The data we gather will allow us to quantify how pervasive the issue of outdated answers is on Stack Overflow, get an initial read on whether sorting by score will be quantifiably better than pinning the accepted answer, and provide an initial training sample for a potential machine-learning algorithm.

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  • 42
    I kinda want to be able to see data on my own accepted answers, but also I have the problem of not always being able to do something about a given answer. Some of them I'll be able to update; others it'd be better that it were unaccepted and possibly even deleted, the latter of which I shouldn't do lest it constitute mod abuse, and yet others which I just have no idea what I can or am supposed to do about, or if they're even actionable.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Apr 8, 2021 at 16:38
  • 56
    @BoltClock raises a good point; if I do have an answers that are deemed outdated by users, I would like to be made aware as well so that i can address it. I've no doubt that we all learn better and new techniques over the years, so if we have an old answer we can improve because of them and the answer is getting marked as needing it, then those of us that want to address it can.
    – Thom A
    Commented Apr 8, 2021 at 16:47
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    There is a fundamental issue here that is not addressed: there isn't always a single answer. There may be multiple answers to a question that complement or clarify the accepted answer. Upvotes help keep these answers listed before other answers, but they are still not part of the accepted answer, and possibly disregarded by users who search an answer. I think, the OP should be able to mark as solution multiple answers, and also, there should be a "community solution" marker, that is marked as such by the SO community over time. I would comment more, but I've reached the comment character limit
    – cristian
    Commented Apr 8, 2021 at 17:44
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    Glad this is being looked into, I think there's a lot of good work that can be done here. It can be very confusing sometimes to navigate through a pile of outdated answers (or worse, a chain of questions with progressively less outdated answers that clog up search results). On certain topics I know to search several times and look at every single answer and post but it's not an ideal workflow and not everyone will know when they need to do that.
    – jrh
    Commented Apr 8, 2021 at 18:11
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    if the highest-scored, non-accepted answer is better than the accepted answer. Please note that also the highest-scored, non-accepted answer can be outdated. Commented Apr 8, 2021 at 18:26
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    There is also another case: the question is outdated. For example some questions about Android posted in 2011-12. In this case there are no reasons to flag the answer. Commented Apr 8, 2021 at 18:29
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    Kind of bummed this isn't just a general survey for all users. I would like to provide responses but there's no guarantee I will get the survey.
    – TylerH
    Commented Apr 8, 2021 at 18:40
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    Please could you post higher resolution images? I'm struggling to read the x-axis text, I find the text to be a little bright and quite blurry.
    – Peilonrayz
    Commented Apr 8, 2021 at 18:55
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    It would be nice to have a new section in the profile page with a recap of own accepted answers flagged as outdated. In this way it would be easy to check the answer and try to update them (if it is possible). Commented Apr 8, 2021 at 20:21
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    @Peilonrayz I uploaded new images, but they may not be much better than the first. Please note, you can click to enlarge the images
    – Anita Taylor StaffMod
    Commented Apr 8, 2021 at 21:16
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    @GabrieleMariotti one tricky thing is, answer ownership. If person A posted an up to date answer circa 2012, and gets accepted, and person B posted an up to date answer circa 2021, and person A's answer gets flagged and edited to nearly match person B's answer, you'd have duplicate answers there. That's one situation where the "voting" thing doesn't really work very well, old answers will almost always have more votes. How do you mix votes (which kinda emphasize short term popularity and weight activity near the start) and an indicator of correctness?
    – jrh
    Commented Apr 8, 2021 at 21:43
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    @jrh - I once suggested (not popularly received) that answers with very high numbers of votes (say 250 or more) might shed votes over time. Such that an answer with 750 votes in 2011 might have 500 votes by 2021 and 250 votes by 2026. Perhaps the rate of degradation could be influenced by the number of "this still works, but it's outdated" flags? Anyway, it doesn't matter - as I mentioned, the suggestion wasn't popularly received.
    – Rounin
    Commented Apr 9, 2021 at 11:01
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    I think it's important to note that the gamification, score, and therefore post ownership, dilutes SO's capabilities as a wiki. On one hand it might get people to participate more, but on the other hand, it makes it hard to find and maintain canonical answers. The Docs experiment didn't work, but I don't think that's an indication that how SO presents Q/A content is perfect and should never be messed with again. If SO search was smart enough to help me find the best content for me I would love to use it instead of Google.
    – jrh
    Commented Apr 9, 2021 at 13:31
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    Great to see that the team is progressing this project! Just one small question: Why the value of 60 days as a cut-off? That seems a bit on the low side: 2 months is a very short shelf life for a Stack Overflow answer. Commented Apr 9, 2021 at 15:17
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    @AdrianMole We're looking at answers that are AT LEAST 60 days old - so anything from 60 days old to 13 years.
    – Anita Taylor StaffMod
    Commented Apr 9, 2021 at 16:57

11 Answers 11

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I'm not sure that tagging or color coding accepted answers as outdated is a good thing. It just adds another layer of bureaucracy and maintenance. Better to simply unpin the accepted answer and count acceptance as a supervote instead. There are countless proposals to that regard over the years.

Additionally, I hope that sorting orders will get lots of attention. I can't really believe we can sort answers showing oldest first, but not newest first (in 2021)! We really seem to value old content (sorting by score, not by score per year or age-weighted score or trend) much more than new content. More sort orders, which also emphasize new content would be a big step forward in my eyes. I really hope for progress there. Unfortunately it's not really a topic of the April questions.

For example, a promising sorting order could be devised by (taken from Mateen Ulhaq): Create a test set of questions, where the ideal sort order of each question's answers is manually labeled for the top 3 answers. Tune the algorithm on this test set. The algorithm with highest accuracy should do great in the real world because it is now displaying the most important answers first. And as tuning parameters we could for example take age, date and number of edits, votes and vote history into account.

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    At last, someone speaks sense instead of ranting about the accept mark. 👍
    – bad_coder
    Commented Apr 10, 2021 at 15:37
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    This answer presumes two things: older content always stale, which is not true; and that new content is always preferable. Ordering content is very limited to solve our problems. Curation on the other hand (edits and deletions) doesn't have such limitations.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 10, 2021 at 16:31
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    @Braiam I wouldn't go that far and say that old content is always stale but surely content ages. You're right that editing improves the situation but it doesn't completely solve the problem, maybe never will. The sorting order is important because the problem is finding the right content.I basically trust votes from 2020 much more than votes given in 2010. I don't want to take anything away but adding more possibilities. And we could do both, more sorting orders and encouraged editing. Commented Apr 10, 2021 at 21:29
  • Ordering will never solve the problem. Editing and deletion will solve the problem if it is aggressive enough. "trust votes from 2020 much more than votes given in 2010", didn't you read cigien answer? That answer was bad in 2016 and still got upvotes in 2016! The only way it was solved was via deletion. Ordering was powerless, because our system is based on a simple premise: every vote is the same.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 13, 2021 at 19:58
  • @Braiam This is too much black and white to me. Everything together will most likely solve the problem. I'm not sure how much different sorting will help but even if it helps only a little bit, it's worth doing because the effort is extremely low compared to editing and deleting, which doesn't really scale. Regarding editing, I recently edited a post featured on meta and removed fluff. First thing the original author did was rolling the edit back before adding his own edit. Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 9:17
  • @Trilarion no, the thing is that we've already tried ordering. It doesn't work. Alone or together with anything. Reddit has the same problem, they literally introduced a new ordering algo to deal with a similar issue. They still didn't solve the thing they were meant to solve. It's not black and white, it's literally tested several times. Wasting time with this solution that has shown to not work. is a waste of time however you see it.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 12:15
  • @Braiam I read what ordering they introduced and it's not the same as proposed here for example by chux. Assuming that you can transfer the situation 1:1 is just too much and where is the proof that the situation is not at least a little bit better with Reddit now? I think you are jumping to conclusions. I also think that sorting doesn't take anything away from editing and deleting. So doing both is clearly the way to go unless you believe that the current sort is the best there ever was or that any (random) sort would perform as well. We should also edit and delete, never said no to it. Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 14:14
  • Is not the implementation that doesn't work, it's the entire concept of ordering. Ordering as a concept to surface relevant information, is a misguided solution. Google hasn't solved that problem for every scenario and that's literally their core business. If Google with all their resources haven't solved the problem, do you believe that our naive heuristics would do anything better?
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 14:24
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    @Braiam We don't have to do better than Google, only better than us from the past and I think we might be able to do that. Especially I think it's not a waste of time compared to the effort that is needed to do it. Editing and deletion are huge efforts, a different sort order is only a small effort. Even if the effect is small, it still pays off. Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 15:46
  • Of course we don't have to be better than google, we shouldn't even get in their arena. Messing with ordering is getting in Google league, something that we are not capable to do. And ordering won't make us better than us before. We've already tried that (nee documentation). Deletion and edition is the only thing we've not tried yet (except we do, but get smacked by others because a unknown and absurd set of rules).
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 19:28
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    @Braiam There are clear cases where a sort where more weight is given to recent votes would help. For the other cases, the parameters could be tuned down. Even having a bit of sorting is better than nothing. Commented Apr 18, 2021 at 6:45
  • @MateenUlhaq some cases isn't the same as all cases. We already did a through experiment with that one, the results were catastrophically bad at best, where people would just post the same answer again and again because they can't be bothered to read past the first two answers. If you read the latest blog post about how many people copies from posts you will see why that doesn't work.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 19, 2021 at 20:23
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    Devising a sorting algorithm: Create a test set of questions, where the ideal sort order of each question's answers is manually labeled for the top 3 answers. Tune the algorithm on this test set. The algorithm with highest accuracy should do great in the real world because it is now displaying the most important answers first. Commented Apr 19, 2021 at 20:51
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    @MateenUlhaq Older questions are not the problem. There are plenty of old questions in the link that are still useful today, let me quote: "[...] I am happy to announce that How to iterate over rows in a DataFrame in Pandas received the most copies. Answered in 2013, this question continues to help thousands of people each week." Note, that the second answer is also getting upvotes at a high rate. On that case, should the later answer be favored or the former? How do you factor in downvotes?
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 20, 2021 at 11:38
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    @Braiam I'm not sure about exactly how to deal with downvotes: that's a research question. But once again, I think a ML-like approach involving a training set (for tuning the weights) and test set (for measuring final real world performance, after model has been "trained") would help in investigating how much weight downvotes should be given. Of course, one must avoid the temptation of glancing at test accuracy before the "model" is fully trained. A validation set could also be of use. Commented Apr 20, 2021 at 22:29
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To allow new good answers to cope with answer inertia and rise to more prominence, add to the sorting an option based upon ordering answers where recent upvotes count more than old votes.

e.g.

sort rating = (votes this year)*100% + (votes last year)*90% + 
    (votes 2 years ago)*80% + (votes 3 years ago)*70% + ...

Or 1% per month, etc.

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    Something like this could be great. I have this problem with a question I asked 10 years ago in a language I haven't touched in almost as long. It's important to a lot of people, and there are many answers with many upvotes. It'd be great if the system would work out which was the best answer and present it to people that way, rather than me periodically having to revisit the question that I don't care about, to reassign the checkmark to whatever seems to be the best answer these days. stackoverflow.com/questions/8265328/… Commented Apr 12, 2021 at 23:08
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    @SteveBennett My thinking is that a vote today is more relevant to users now than a vote years ago.
    – chux
    Commented Apr 13, 2021 at 2:48
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    Yeah, even if the answer hasn't changed, a vote today telling you that "this 8 year old answer still works" is super valuable. Commented Apr 13, 2021 at 20:46
  • @SteveBennett "...rather than me periodically having to revisit the question that I don't care about, to reassign the checkmark to whatever seems to be the best answer these days...." Simple solution: don't assign the checkmark in the first place, or at least un-assign it and do not re-assign it. Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 14:18
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    @SteveBennett "a vote today telling you that "this 8 year old answer still works" is super valuable" the thing is that a vote today is very correlated with the vote 8 years ago
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 14:29
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    @Braiam It's a bit problematic to generalize from a single example but I believe it too. Votes are correlated over time and that means either that content doesn't age and gets constantly updated or that voting is partly rubbish. Probably voters simply get biased by the sorting order and the prominent display of the score and do take into account the actual content to a lesser amount than would be good for them. Still the idea in this answer makes sense, even if votes are correlated. One would expect to gain less though. Commented Apr 15, 2021 at 10:29
  • @Trilarion which isn't a warranty that it will. The way that one got fixed was deletion: now the bad content will never be used. That's a sure fire method of fixing the issue, ordering isn't.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 15, 2021 at 11:02
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    The answer at the top will get upvotes insanely faster for the same quality as the 2nd highest answer, simply because someone has to read the first then the second before they decide the 2nd gets an upvote. This means that cludegy and outdated answers which are marginal usability will continue to have more upvotes, even today. Commented Apr 17, 2021 at 15:16
  • @Yakk-AdamNevraumont This problem could be easily solved by a random sort order. Maybe we could factor in the position of the answer in the current sorting order when votes are given and value votes on lower ranked answers more, kind of compensating for the bias effect that you described. On the other hand we would need to quantify the size of the effect before. How often do people read 2nd answers? We could find out by making an experiment where we exchange scores between two answers for a short time and then check how much more or less votes they get. It's doable. Commented Apr 20, 2021 at 7:55
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    @tril Random sort order makes the website worse at solving the problem you googled to get here, as you have to read frankly garbage first. Sorted makes the sorting sticky, and prevents better answers from replacing worse. Both have problems Commented Apr 20, 2021 at 11:38
  • @Yakk-AdamNevraumont Maybe there is an optimum somewhere in the middle between random and sticky? This answer kind of presents an intermediate solution with some sorting and less stickiness. If it's not enough, I would have ideas for even less stickiness (sometimes showing the second and third answers first and seeing how many votes they get instead). Commented Apr 20, 2021 at 11:43
  • Something even simpler, allow answers to be sorted by votes in "past x years", with x maybe being 1, 3, and 5. So I could come and see a question from 2010 with a bunch of answers, sort by votes in the past 3 years, and up to the top will be the ones most upvoted in the past 3 years (understood that this will be highly correlated with the accepted). Basically you would be able to sort by or otherwise be alerted to "trending" answers.
    – user10917479
    Commented Apr 21, 2021 at 14:08
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    @Adam, agree some form of sort by "trending" to overcome inertia.
    – chux
    Commented Apr 21, 2021 at 16:42
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Please consider that I write as a searcher rather than an answerer, and I am also visually oriented. My personal preference is to go along with the tagging/coloring line, marking an answer as last year's number one, rather than current champion.

I would also like to point out that a question's age gets a decent treatment: in black, just under the title, calculations done for you.

enter image description here

To find out an answer's age, we have to scroll down to the end of the answer, read the little print in grey, and do the calculations for the age.

enter image description here

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I'm sad that updating as the post ages is not contained in the possible solutions. It seems that we are so afraid of editing someone post that SO painted itself into a corner where we have the tools to fix the situation but refuse to use them. Someone writing a comment noting an improvement, could as easily edit the post. The help center even includes this:

Edits are expected to be substantial and to leave the post better than you found it. Common reasons for edits include:

  • To fix grammar and spelling mistakes
  • To clarify the meaning of the post (without changing that meaning)
  • To include additional information only found in comments, so all of the information relevant to the post is contained in one place
  • To correct minor mistakes or add updates as the post ages
  • To add related resources or hyperlinks

Maybe it's time that the help center be updated and remove that from there. Of course, only on SO, because other sites of the SE network have no problems with this. Maybe SE should stop worrying about pissing off users, since you already blundered that path for less important stuff, and just piss them off again and make sure that people fix problems as they find them. Otherwise, we will be no different than the now defunct Yahoo Answers.

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    We could basically restart SO every decade and keep all the old Q&As as archive, read-only tagged versions. That would surely solve the outdated content problem. Commented Apr 9, 2021 at 15:34
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    When we edit posts (Qs or As) we're prompted to summarize our edits. That prompt could include a checkbox saying "I'm correcting outdated information" or something similar for posts older than, say, a year.
    – O. Jones
    Commented Apr 9, 2021 at 18:31
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    @Trilarion nah, that's literally kicking the proverbial can down the road. SO is supposed to be a live Q&A site that evolves with time and always have a canonical answer to a question.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 9, 2021 at 18:54
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    @O.Jones or you could just write "updating X due changes, now parameter Y is mandatory" or something. No need for extra controls.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 9, 2021 at 18:55
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    Yeah, I quit editing because it just felt like a lottery. Some reviewers reject on too minor, some editors reject on too major. Do edit code, don't edit code, just fix typos, fixing typos isn't enough, fix dead links, just fixing dead links isn't enough, etc... there's no consistency. I gave up trying to fight that battle a long time ago. Not many read edit descriptions and nobody goes back and applies "too minor" edits, so mistakes just sit around. IMO the whole suggested edit system was good on paper but it needs some work, it didn't scale well at all.
    – jrh
    Commented Apr 9, 2021 at 20:50
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    In theory a case where the original author's been gone for years is an especially great application for an edit, I've had some luck contacting posters via comments but it's probably like a 50/50 shot considering how old the content is getting. Still, I don't think I'd be so bold as to rewrite an unsalvageably outdated top answer even if I had full edit powers, I think making edits better would be a good idea but I think we need more than this, otherwise we'd have to rethink what it means to "own" a post.
    – jrh
    Commented Apr 9, 2021 at 20:55
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    @jrh oh, those are fun. Wait till you get to 2k. It becomes even more ridiculous. You can literally have the gold badge of the tag, updates someone post to note a change, and someone that has no business with it will discuss with you if it was even appropriate. Like, come on! It's impossible to get correct information first, and you want to make it more difficult...
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 9, 2021 at 22:11
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    @Braiam at this rate, by the time I have 2k, maybe SE will have fixed all the problems. I'll have my grandkids sign in from their flying car and use the quantum computer AI powered search functionality that went through and (via some computing miracle) accurately classified every post in every language and it'd show them a perfectly curated list of options that meet whatever tech they are using. You never know, a lot could happen in 50 years.
    – jrh
    Commented Apr 9, 2021 at 23:18
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    @jrh don't put your faith in SE 6-8 units of time that takes to fix issues. It can be seconds or decades.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 10, 2021 at 0:22
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    "that's literally kicking the proverbial can down the road." And kicking the can perpetually is a solution. If SO didn't exist we would say hooray and start working on it. I'm not convinced that any amount of editing that would be needed is taking place and you would never be sure that content is not outdated. The only way to be sure is starting new. SO is already quite a garbage collection. Having said that, it was more a fun proposal. Commented Apr 10, 2021 at 6:52
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    @Trilarion personally, I don't see a way for SE to keep content up to date that doesn't involve making it easy for anyone in the community pick up the task of updating a post that the author no longer cares about. However "deviates from author intent" as a reject reason could be reworded to "you can't make the post better than the author could at the time", and "no improvement whatsoever (when used as 'too minor')" should be reworded to "I as an reviewer do not care as much as you do, but I have points and you don't".
    – jrh
    Commented Apr 10, 2021 at 13:34
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    With the precedent of those reject reasons it's very hard to fix or unseat highly upvoted posts from the top spot (impossible if they are accepted). Maybe there should be some kind of process to turn posts into community wiki, like something people can vote for, and if the OP doesn't object or something (i.e., they're not around, or haven't been maintaining their own content) it just happens.
    – jrh
    Commented Apr 10, 2021 at 13:37
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    "we have the tools to fix the situation but refuse to use them" This summarizes most problems I've seen on this site Commented Apr 13, 2021 at 14:11
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    @JDBstillremembersMonica I don't care about rep, and I'd be 100% OK doing those kind of edits (I probably would've done hundreds by now), but ironically users like me can't edit because we don't have the rep to make significant edits on our own (good luck getting major edits past a reviewer, or any edits). I think Codidact had an interesting idea of not tying edit powers to rep. On SE you get rep for getting votes but I don't think that's actually correlated with edit skills or curating old content.
    – jrh
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 12:46
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    @sth well, it wouldn't be the first time that thousands of users are wrong
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 19, 2021 at 20:19
21

I'm sad that updating as the post ages is not contained in the possible solutions. It seems that we are so afraid of editing someone post that SO painted itself into a corner where we have the tools to fix the situation but refuse to use them. Someone writing a comment noting a improvement, could as easily edit the post.

This is from another answer. I think this answer is missing the point of what is happening with many questions:

  1. Someone asked a good question a long time ago

  2. An answer is posted a long time ago. Maybe it was a good answer at the time, or maybe it was never really a good solution, but it was the best solution available at the time.

  3. Months or years go by, and better ways to solve the problem are discovered or created. An answer get posted with the new method, but is doomed to the bottom of the answer list. Eventually it makes it to number two spot, but never number one spot because of the accept lock.

The solution to this problem is not "let’s just keep editing the accepted answer forever so that it stays relevant". If the poster wants to change their answer to include new methods, I think that's fine. But I think blessing an answer forever just because it was the best answer at the time is not a good solution.

You're unfairly awarding the early answer, and unfairly punishing newer, possibly better answers.

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    You are misrepresenting the accept lock because there might be several outdated answer on a thread and changing the lock doesn't change the overall vote counts that several outdated answers received over time.
    – bad_coder
    Commented Apr 10, 2021 at 0:09
  • "If the poster wants to change their answer to include new methods" the poster isn't the owner of the post, the community is, via Stack Exchange license. This community. If this community wants, it can be edited. Don't confuse attribution with ownership.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 10, 2021 at 0:21
  • @StevenPenny that's exactly what my proposal eliminates. You edit the answer so it's kept up to date, rather than regurgitate the same thing over and over and over with just incremental improvements.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 10, 2021 at 3:42
  • 1
    I agree that updating answers has problems in itself. If we would do it consequently we would end up with identical answers all the time. After all, don't we all want to have the best answer. Answers to questions should be different, otherwise there is no value in giving more than one. The problem of newer answers not arriving at the top is better solved by new sort orders for example by age weighted votes. Commented Apr 10, 2021 at 6:58
  • 1
    @StevenPenny "a great way to kill the site": "The fastest way to kill any Q&A; site is to flood it with low-quality questions" This right here has been the tenet of everything we've done in the last decade. If that right there is wrong, you need to really back up your claims.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 10, 2021 at 11:13
  • @Braiam I dont need to back up anything, its common sense. If you remove an incentive to post answers, then less answers will be posted. Of course you will still have the "shiny happy people" posting answers, but thats it
    – Zombo
    Commented Apr 10, 2021 at 13:00
  • 1
    @Braiam Everyone cares about the unicorn points. They are undeniably an incentive, and they are the framework for the community that values some kinds of contributions higher than others. If we want more community answers, we should consider handing out unicorn points for editing them, and not make the original author loose their reputation from upvotes before the conversion.
    – Bergi
    Commented Apr 12, 2021 at 0:00
  • 1
    @bad_coder The solution there is to downvote stale answers and upvote better answers. "This answer is not useful" is intentionally vague and subjective. An answer might once have been useful but now, compared to other solutions, it is no longer useful. It's ok to downvote stale content. It might even prompt the author to come back and update the answer, which gives us the best of both worlds... up-to-date content and the top of the stack!
    – JDB
    Commented Apr 12, 2021 at 17:32
  • @Bergi we should stop giving any incentive at all. Authors intrinsic incentive should be a better programming for all. :)
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 15, 2021 at 11:03
12

I much appreciate this initiative. Lately I'm encountering more and more questions where the "modern" answers are buried.

One example question where this happened -- the question is from 13 years old, all 9 answers above mine are at least 4 years old. The solution changed from a very complicated multi-step manual process to "just include this package and it will sort out everything automatically", but the problem used to be so prevalent that the question is flooded with answers, mostly variations of the complicated process or workarounds. I'm afraid that most people coming from Google won't even see my answer and will instead try to use the still working but archaic method.

So yeah, I wanted to express gratitude that this is being looked at. I assume that for many old questions like the one above, there may actually be a better "modern" solution, but people who know it don't even bother posting it since the question already has many highly upvoted answers and the answer would have very little visibility.

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    I'd argue that "here's how to do it manually" is not worse at all than "here's how to do it with a package", and the first certainly shouldn't be marked as obsolete just because someone has made a package that solves it more easily
    – Erik A
    Commented Apr 9, 2021 at 8:59
  • 10
    Some of us simply prefer clean, manual(archaic?), methods to get things done instead of installing a new package or framework to do everything. Those who prefer letting frameworks handle certain things can vote accordingly. Having all of the answers are useful, and late answers do sometimes suffer obscurity on very old questions. However, I agree with @ErikA that being "modern" doesn't qualify automatically as being better.
    – Booga Roo
    Commented Apr 9, 2021 at 10:21
  • 11
    "The solution changed from a very complicated multi-step manual process to "just include this package and it will sort out everything automatically"" right, what happens when that package no longer works? Because I've encountered this - coming from a search engine I find that I "only" need to install one thing and everything magically works. Only that package has been deprectated 5 years ago and now there are three alternatives of it that are good for X, Y, and Z but I've no clue what those are because I've never set it up manually.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Apr 9, 2021 at 10:24
  • 2
    I can appreciate this, but old answers are still relevant for old versions and old versions don't just automagically disappear when a new version arrives; the answers can stay relevant for a very long time. The question was about that older version, so technically posting "update" answers under it makes the answers wrong if they don't work for the version that the question was targeting. Better separation in versions would be very welcome rather than throwing everything on the same pile.
    – Gimby
    Commented Apr 9, 2021 at 12:45
  • 3
    I was not trying to say that the answers with the manual approach should be removed or hidden, I was merely suggesting that there should be some mechanism to give more visibility to recent answers, since they may contain new approaches not covered by the set of older, upvoted answers. In this specific case, the problem is still exactly the same as 13 years ago (well, .NET), but the thing that changed was that someone made a package that solves it more easily. (For context, the process described needs to be repeated for every update of each unsigned dependency.) Commented Apr 9, 2021 at 14:54
  • 6
    @Jan That's a different discussion, one that's been had here and here and probably more, as it's a common issue. Imo we shouldn't try a "two birds one stone" thing here, and focus on truly incorrect and outdated answers, not more recent approaches while the old way works just fine.
    – Erik A
    Commented Apr 9, 2021 at 15:56
  • 1
    If someone doesn't read all the answers, it's their problem. Commented Apr 10, 2021 at 17:05
  • 10
    @Kevin I disagree, the whole reason the QA format with votes exists, as opposed to a discussion forum, is to make it easier to find answers without having to read the full discussion. Commented Apr 11, 2021 at 14:29
10

The thing that I don't see a lot of discussion around is context. I'm writing this as someone who has an answer that, from time to time, is down voted because it only applies to specific versions of tools that are now out-of-date.

I may have missed earlier discussions and surveys about this topic, since I'm not so active on SO now that I'm coding less. However, decisions like this that affect answers are still of interest to me, since I have over 450 answers posted here over the past 12+ years.

I think that care needs to be paid to context, regardless of how things go forward. Context includes the title and body of the question, the tags applied to the question, and the date that the question was asked. I do think it's useful to ensure that answers about older versions of languages, libraries, frameworks, and tools are still available and accessible. Sometimes, people are using these technologies well after their end-of-life date.

Especially for older questions, I'd like to see an effort made to try to make it more clear what the context is, rather than focusing on answers. The emphasis on dealing with answers seems to be sidestepping the issue that it may be necessary to put more information attached to the question itself, via the title, body, and tags and that answers should generally be judged by the standards of the context rather than today's best practices. Some exceptions may be made around security.

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    This answer hints strongly at version tags or something similar as a way to give that context (the date of an answer alone is not sufficient). Ideally, when searching, users would also specify versions that they are interested in and we could maybe filter answers (and questions) by versions. Disadvantage: that would be a lot of work to set up. Would you be willing for example to go over all your 450 answers and kind of tag them to provide context.if such a tag system were available. Commented Apr 11, 2021 at 14:44
  • @Trilarion Two things. First, answers would not be tagged. Questions would be, and are now. However, tags are just one piece of context. Another would be mentioning versions in the question title or body. So, no, I would not go over all of my answers to tag them because they shouldn't be. The emphasis should be on reviewing questions, both old and new, to ensure that they have enough context to let people judge applicability in the future. Commented Apr 11, 2021 at 14:48
  • I believe the context you ask to take into account is not yet there, it would need to be still created and that would mean a lot of work. Just because somebody answered a question about a topic in a certain year doesn't tell me which software versions were used in that answer. Somebody would have to supply that information and answer tags which do not exist so far would be a natural way of providing the information. In which way ever, I mostly wanted to comment on that the context that you speak of night not be fully there and might need effort to provide. Commented Apr 11, 2021 at 22:23
  • 1
    @Trilarion That is true. And in some cases, the information may not be readily available. In that case, we have something of a system in place. Moderators can place a "post notice" on both questions and answers. Placing a post notice on a question indicating that the version(s) are unclear and care needs to be taken when reading existing answers or writing existing answers. The application of this can be automated or through a review queue. But it's still about the question and not the answers. The focus on answers is my problem with the approach presented here. Commented Apr 11, 2021 at 22:44
  • Basically you say there aren't outdated answers without outdated questions and that's why we could and should concentrate on the questions. It can be done but would be lots of work. There are 1.7 million questions in the generic java tag but only 2 thousand questions in the java-7 tag and 21 thousand in the java-8 tag. Over the years, the general tags like java lost specificity because the underlying technology has evolved and that's why the tagging system has lost the ability to provide sufficient context. Commented Apr 12, 2021 at 7:51
  • @Trilarion Mostly yes. The one thing I wouldn't say is that generic tags lost. For example, an answerer may want a generic java tag because they are familiar with many versions. Someone looking for an answer wants to be sure that the info they are getting works with many versions. Both have their place. I think that looking at the tagging system (among other things) is better than looking at answers. Commented Apr 12, 2021 at 9:26
  • 3
    Agreed. A question asking about how to do multi-threading in VB6 is not well-served by answers unique to the latest version of Visual Basic .NET. Lots of people still use VB6 even though its a 30-year-old technology that has technically been superseded and is no longer supported. Sometimes you are working on an "ancient" machine and the latest, greatest answer is not useful to you.
    – JDB
    Commented Apr 12, 2021 at 17:45
1

Another issue would be how to as the same question or if this is not encouraged how to bump up the question, for a newer version of the technology when the old context of the question is obsolete or no longer relevant. Old questions do not generally attract new answers through the existing answers may need updating. So if a question needs updating there should be a way to get attention through a new question or a bump to the front page and tag listeners.

Also to consider is how would asking the same question for a newer version of the technology when the old version is obsolete or not the most current way of doing things handled for duplicates. Maybe the older question can be closed and newer question be left open if the older question is now less relevant.

2
1

Elaborating on chux's answer, a simpler cutoff algorithm could show the percentage of upvotes from, say 5 years ago, on the assumption that the answer was more relevant when it got most upvotes.

Here's a graphic idea for an answer with 76% upvotes older than 5 years.

answer with many old upvotes

-13

On the positive side, it appears that you've listened to all of the feedback and you've done a great job in outlining how you're moving forward. This is...refreshing? It's refreshing to see that Stack Overflow is taking the considerations that the community has made into account.

I do want to say that it is only mildly unfortunate that we're not yet ready to have a discussion about deleting answers. Maybe this refinement for outdated answers may prove out that there is concrete value in deleting answers that don't fall into any of the categories that we've designated for outdated answers. It would sure be a pity if we had kept code around that was just plain ol' broken, or an approach that was unsafe or deprecated - even when it was written - just because someone might still be using it.

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    Outdated answers could be moved to a separate (sub) page and hidden from the search engines. Commented Apr 8, 2021 at 22:58
  • 48
    @PeterMortensen >hidden from search engines Cool, so when people need that elusive info for some old platform they need to interact with they won't be able to find it? No, just no. Clear tag with applicable version is the only correct solution. Commented Apr 9, 2021 at 5:11
  • 14
    I, personally, don't think these answers should be deleted. Answers that are significantly upvoted still might have some "historical significance", but also if the answer is bad because it's a huge security flaw, it instead can be used to highlight what not to do; which is also really important. How does someone know code if a security risk if we don't highlight it (yes, we might in the comments, but we all know far too many people on these website don't read ;) )
    – Thom A
    Commented Apr 9, 2021 at 8:14
  • 5
    @Larnu In principle comments should not contain vital content, I think. All such comments that are important for the content should be edited in the questions or answers. Maybe at some point I will start searching for highly voted comments and become a full-time editor. Commented Apr 9, 2021 at 9:21
  • 2
    Which is exactly why I think those answers being highlighted as flawed, due to security, is the better option, @Trilarion .
    – Thom A
    Commented Apr 9, 2021 at 9:29
  • 3
    There is no such thing as a security risk. It depends too much on the use-case and risk appetite of the user. A risk for one person is no risk to another. If I'm demonstrating a technology to a bootcamp I care a lot less about security than I do when developing secrets management systems for a bank. I will roll in security eventually, but I have to teach the basics before I can explain how to secure it, so sometimes I just want a simple solution, and other times I want a secure solution. If you think an answer is insecure, write a better one explaining that but we don't need a tag. Commented Apr 9, 2021 at 11:44
  • 3
    Basically, it's subjective: if it seems like a risk to you then you'd add the tag, if it doesn't seem like a risk to me then I'd remove the tag, but, ultimately, every post would need the tag because /everything/ is a security risk to someone. To me, allowing human access to your servers or your information is a security risk, to someone running an opensource project perhaps the risks are lower. Commented Apr 9, 2021 at 12:45
  • 4
    @SoftwareEngineer I think you're oversimplifying things. There are very well known practices that are a huge problem. Using string concatenation for SQL queries being an ever-present example. Yes, some might not consider it an issue but people should really, really be aware of the risks before making this assessment. Waving your hands and saying "it might be fine. For somebody. Dunno." doesn't work when it's the somebody who dunnos. Then they aren't making an informed decision.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Apr 9, 2021 at 14:17
  • 2
    And you think that adding an 'insecure' badge isn't oversimplifying? Even the SQL injection issue isn't as black and white as you suggest. My point is that if you're demonstrating a technique you leave out the bits that aren't central to the technique, otherwise you lose the main point behind walls of ineffectual security constraints that don't always apply. Security is handled best by educating engineers, not by obfuscating otherwise simple techniques. Commented Apr 9, 2021 at 16:19
  • 2
    @OlegV.Volkov: This is why I don't think we're ready to have that conversation yet. There is a very real problem with institutions leveraging older technologies and older platforms, and that problem only perpetuates itself for as long as the information is available, even if the vendor of the technology has long since closed up shop or has explicitly stated that they're not going to support that technology. Keeping the information around because it has value is an argument to be made at this moment in time.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 9, 2021 at 16:53
  • 3
    @OlegV.Volkov: To use an example, I won't disagree that there are some Java 7 questions out there that are still pertinent, but it's probably time we started to - as a developer community - really evaluate just how valuable it is to keep answers around about some legacy way to concatenate Strings in older versions of Java.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 9, 2021 at 16:55
  • 11
    @Makoto Some are still using Java 5, but you're talking about decommissioning Java 7 from Stack? When people have that strange obscure problem, they search for it.. let them be able to find it. The thing about "just because someone might still be using it" is that someone always is. That someone also doesn't use any of the other obscure things. To be certain to remove anything that unlikely to be used by most, we'd only need to shut down the site :D The strength of the site is variety. Not the most common Answer to the most common problem. That, you can find everywhere else.
    – Scratte
    Commented Apr 10, 2021 at 15:20
  • 2
    @Scratte: There's a thin line to tread when it comes to keeping information about older systems. First, you have to account for the fact that there have to be experts who still actively use and/or deal with it, and are also willing to invest that time and energy to help curate questions and answers about it here. Second, the whole point of outdated answers in my head is to help reduce the cognitive load around people needing to maintain those kinds of answers, not increase it.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 12, 2021 at 15:29
  • 2
    @Scratte: Something that is not deleted is something that is still maintained. Ironically, that's how legacy systems still persist at institutions, which begets this whole vicious cycle.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 12, 2021 at 16:15
  • 2
    If nothing changes, then it will not need to be edited or otherwise maintained. For most of those old posts, nothing will change. The Answers are still valid and nothing will change that. Unless you have a different definition on "maintain".
    – Scratte
    Commented Apr 12, 2021 at 16:25
-15

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If you want it broke, permit the moderators to "fix it."

If the attitudes of the moderators in the past is any indicator, allowing them to run rampant deleting and modifying answers with the above proposed privileges is not going to end well. Not at all.

During the moderator-storm of 2014, damage was done, but was not all that destructive. Many "closed," "off-topic," etc. questions were still visible and useful. However, the next moderator-storm with the moderators having the proposed answer-delete and question and answer modification privileges will be very destructive.

05-2021: And it begins: The following question was removed. No reason given, just gone. Not deleted were answers in other questions that referenced the deleted question and its answers. Now the referencing questions and answers are now diminished in value, maybe even worthless. Let's call it The Stack Overflow Deletion Butterfly Effect.

The next 2014 is going to be a an unmitigated and unrecoverable disaster.

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/15826788/php-sortable-table

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    Mods have never done anything like this as far as I am aware.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 23:56
  • 4
    If anything, having a defined process for handling out of date content is better than the current model, where moderators already have the ability to delete and alter content anyway.
    – tripleee
    Commented Apr 15, 2021 at 6:17
  • tripleee Define "out of date." I don't know how many times I have utilized "out of date" answers that either worked for me or, even better, set me on the path to a solution--it's all valuable, a library of sorts. And, based on what I have seen and experienced at the hands of some moderators in the past, giving them the edict to start going around deleting what they deem to be "out of date" content will not be a good thing. The damage they did in past years could heal, but deleted content is just gone--the damage unknown. The moderators should be moderating, not deleting.
    – JayJay123
    Commented Apr 15, 2021 at 7:54
  • 1
    In your latest edit you added a link to a deleted Q, citing it as an example of a recent deletion. In fact it was deleted 7 years ago Commented May 13, 2021 at 8:17
  • 3
    The question you linked was deleted by community (the automated process that removes some questions based on various criteria: stackoverflow.com/help/roomba) 7 years ago. Commented May 13, 2021 at 8:17

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