35

To quote CodeCaster's answer from Is there a canonical duplicate for "how do I fix my ArgumentNullException" questions? :

Over the years I kinda grew against closing questions as those very generic "canonical" Q&As with dozens of different causes, because of the sheer length and uselessness that accumulates over time in such canonicals.

I mean look at it. No really, look at it. Look at the first answer of the NullReferenceException canonical. It's a sixteen page long answer (at least on my 1080p laptop) that has been edited 57 times in 10 years, chock full of examples and edge cases nobody is ever going to read.

After it, there's a nineteen page long answer that basically states all the same things, except for VB.NET.

It's been many years since I actually read that first answer, and in that time it has indeed evolved into a monster of edge-cases and what-ifs, the majority of which are utterly unhelpful to anyone actually experiencing an NRE. On the other hand, the answer's thoroughness means that almost anybody with an NRE who does take the time to read through it, should find a solution to their problem.

But let's take a step back here: NREs are one of the simplest issues to understand, debug and fix. 99% of the time they're caused by a fundamentally silly mistake, and can easily be located and therefore resolved by inspecting the stack trace. 99% of the time, people asking questions about NREs simply haven't performed that simple step, either because they're too inexperienced or too lazy.

In either of those cases, can we really reasonably expect that pointing said askers to a wall of text will resolve their problem? I think not; either they don't know enough about the problem they're facing to be able to parse said wall to enable them to find a solution, or they can't be bothered.

This, then, would suggest to me that canonicals, in and of themselves, are fundamentally useless except as a way for curators to nuke poor questions as duplicates. Essentially they've become a way to tell users to bugger off and RTFM, which we used to do via the "lacks understanding" and/or "lacks effort" close reasons, that were unfortunately "retired" because they're "not nice".

From all the above I come to the conclusion that the content of canonical questions and their answers doesn't matter. The canonical question exists merely as a dupe close target; its answers will almost never be read, and if they are they will almost never be helpful.

Given all the above, do canonical dupes even need to exist? If they're simply being used as a way to nuke bad questions, shouldn't we just use another close reason to do the same? (I'm fully aware that close reasons are already being "overloaded" to close things that they may not be entirely relevant to; this is an example of the system not reflecting the use-cases of its users, and as such is an entirely separate discussion.) Or do we need to have a different discussion about what should, and should not, go into answers on canonicals - with respect to actually making said answers useful?

22
  • 1
    What is the difference between a dupe and a canonical dupe? How can one exist and not the other?
    – VLAZ
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 10:14
  • 2
    It's mainly that answer that wastes time. I mean, this one doesn't. I don't know why that one is at the top.
    – Erik A
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 10:26
  • @ErikA the initial version seems a lot less cluttered. There were 58 edits made to that post.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 11:01
  • 13
    I think this is too broad. You gave here one bad example but it doesn't say anything about the general case. This Python "canonical" which I use a lot is quite useful I believe, albeit being also quite long. It is straight-to-the-point while also offering a lot of explanations. I believe beginners can benefit a lot from it
    – Tomerikoo
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 11:51
  • 2
    @Tomerikoo The last sentence of this question hints at your concern. Also, the highest-voted answer on that Python canonical has had a mere 9 edits; the NRE one has had fifty-eight.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 12:01
  • 1
    Imo not it's not a wast of time. And [C#] [Json] tag is still looking for cannonical. The sheer numbers of people that need tool to generate class from Json. How to deserialize. How to detect that the json is a dictionary; with the error cannont deserialize array in object / object in array; that SingleOrArrayConverter converter; The Json containning a serialize json. If we had good dupe cannonical build to be cannonical we could close 99.9% of those Json question. Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 12:30
  • 2
    I think the crux of the issue is that we cannot close as a dupe of a specific answer. If that were possible then I'd feel more comfortable sending someone into an ocean of answers.
    – MonkeyZeus
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 13:05
  • 6
    You can't generalize all canonical answers based on just one example
    – charlietfl
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 13:20
  • 3
    What several previous comments point out is a faulty generalization.
    – jaco0646
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 13:53
  • 1
    @IanKemp In a way, that was exactly my point. Your concern here is phrased as general but it really is specific to that question. Maybe I'm reading it wrong...
    – Tomerikoo
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 14:08
  • 2
    @PM2Ring Yes, but comments are second-class citizens and can be deleted at any time for any reason.
    – MonkeyZeus
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 14:08
  • 1
    @MonkeyZeus Sure, but mods are unlikely to delete a comment like that, since it assists the OP & future readers in making sense of the dupe. At least, that's my understanding from my conversations with mods in the Python chat room.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 14:13
  • 1
    @PM2Ring Yes, but I rarely see such comments anyways; maybe 0.2% of the time? Allowing us to target answers would swiftly solve the issue with canonicals and non-canonicals alike. There are plenty of times where the answer to OP's specific question is in the answer of a question which is completely unrelated to OP's.
    – MonkeyZeus
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 14:17
  • 1
    @MonkeyZeus If the question is closed and has no future value then it shouldn't really matter whether the comment referring to a specific part of the canonical Q&A sticks around for anyone else to see. It's really only there to help the OP. Although the argument that comments shouldn't be used for this because they can be deleted at any time isn't a strong argument in favour of being able to use an answer as a duplicate target. One could equally use that to argue comments shouldn't be deleted at any time, or linking to related posts should be separate functionality, or something else. Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 14:50
  • 4
    What we really need is a place where we could collect all the canonical information about common coding language features and issues. It would be like Stack Overflow with Documentation.
    – AShelly
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 16:12

8 Answers 8

47

Canonical questions are great, but their wiki answers, by virtue of being wikis, are threatened by scope creep. Many canonical questions have survived without falling victim to scope creep and have seen a lot of success. They are by no means a waste of time; in fact, they've probably collectively saved hundreds of thousands of developer hours. The vast majority of canonical questions — usually, not self-answered ones — achieved that status organically over time; that's even better, and in fact the goal of Stack Overflow. But scope creep is the problem you're talking about, not canonical questions per se. And I agree with what you've said.

All an NRE tells you is that, at the specific point of time in which it was thrown, the code was trying to call or dereference something that wasn't there. But code is complex; there are so many scenarios that can all ultimately boil down to exactly this, and not all of them are debugged the same way.1 There are some common techniques you can use to try to suss out the cause of an NRE, which can be discussed in a canonical question, but once an individual question gets too complex or specific, that's when the question should just be answered on the spot, perhaps with a reference to the canonical question, instead of attempting to close it as a duplicate and dumping everything into that canonical question's answer. That's the kind of scope creep that can affect such an answer and make it, as you say, a waste of time or at least incredibly exhausting to go through.

Here's a suggestion: instead of having a single question that covers everything you could possibly know about NREs (and one for each language at that), have one for the simplest and most common cases, then perhaps have another layer of questions for different categories. For example, collection-related NREs can have their own canonical; each UI framework can have its own canonical for NREs (for instance XAML-related NREs, which are an absolute debugging nightmare especially if you're on WinRT/UWP); other framework-specific questions can either have their own canonical or not at all; and so on. The answer to the general or main canonical question can even link to these specific ones. This reduces clutter in the main canonical question while making specific canonical questions even easier to find for their respective audiences.


1 I once traced an NRE to a bad connection string that was causing a key object to be left null. This code was not my own but code I was called in to fix. It took me half an hour, even using the Visual Studio debugger.

8
  • 2
    I like this answer, but it also throws up a lot of questions, chief of them being "how do we prevent this type of scope creep with the tools we (don't) have"? CodeCaster's linked answer effectively suggested a Wikipedia-like, i.e. more tightly controlled, approach but the tooling simply doesn't exist for that AFAIK. Perhaps I should close this question and ask a more direct one on scope creep and how we can prevent it?
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 12:06
  • 2
    @IanKemp: The problem of scope creep has been discussed here: Are broad, unspecific questions about entire topic areas preferred over specific questions related to concrete problems?. Personally, on the one canonical Q&A that I maintain, I try to avoid scope creep by not adding everything that people in the comments suggest that I add. :-)
    – Heinzi
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 14:11
  • I'm surprised no one has cried foul over my use of the word "discussed" yet. That word used to push buttons.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 14:32
  • 2
    @Ian Kemp: No need to close this one.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 14:33
  • 5
    "instead of having a single question that covers everything you could possibly know, have one for the simplest and most common cases" YEEEEEES! I've saying the for years. A single laundry list of possible causes isn't useful for anyone. People that read that answer is just getting frustrated because it doesn't addresses their problems.
    – Braiam
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 17:53
  • 6
    "Here's a suggestion ... have one for the simplest and most common cases, then perhaps have another layer of questions for different categories." When I was trying to get more involved in SO, I tried to do exactly this with NRE's because it's one of the common questions from new users of Unity, so I thought I could help unclutter the tag for people searching specifically for Unity, and include the Unity-specific causes and solutions for a more useful canonical answer. Despite having different information in the question and answer, it was closed as a dupe of the NRE question. Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 18:59
  • 2
    @Appleguysnake: Yeah, that's just dumb of them. People don't pay attention to dupes.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Apr 1, 2021 at 2:48
  • 1
    @BoltClock probably because we don't teach them what is a duplicate. The I-hate-you-Jeff-for-this rule of thumb that you can identify duplicates by "looking at the answers" was what created this issue where people started closing as duplicate just looking at the answers, not at the freaking questions!
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 2, 2021 at 2:01
25

Are canonical dupes a waste of everyone's time?

For what it's worth, I don't think they are. But I also think SE's model doesn't serve the posters you describe very well, and doesn't serve the people trying to help them very well either. And I'm regularly frustrated by each of those things.

I agree that some (many?) canonicals are too broad to be useful on their own without being studied more deeply than the posters we're pointing at them are likely to do (at least at that time). My approach to the situation you describe is to follow the rules as I understand them and close as a duplicate, and where appropriate (probably at least 70% of the time, maybe more) post a comment explaining to the OP how the target applies to their situation — basically what I would have posted as an answer, but with a less in-depth explanation (that's what the target is for), poorer formatting (sadly), and an onerous length restriction.

My reasons for that approach:

  • I see the value in not having a thousand different questions about the same thing with a thousand highly-specific, slightly-different answers. When I search for a solution to something that isn't covered by SE sites I get very frustrated at finding dozens of versions of the same basic thing with answers too specific to the question to be helpful (to me) before I find a useful solution. So centralizing and curating answers makes sense to me.

  • Without the comment, I often feel we've just slammed the door in the poster's face — that RTFM thing — and I don't like doing that.

I don't know the solution to the problem with the model. I do have some thoughts, but I think this probably isn't the place to go into them as it's a bit tangential to the question (and frankly I think it's highly unlikely SE would entertain them anyway).

10

Canonicals addressing specific issues/solutions instead of generic symptoms are useful and vital timesavers.


Simply put, there are many ways to have the same symptom but only few ways to solve a specific issue. Similarly, the purpose and benefit of duplicates is to link the same answers (solutions) not questions (symptoms).

Canonicals that focus on providing specific answers problems, instead of providing generic questions of problems match this well. Creating and maintaining them ensures that people find solutions to their problems, that curators can efficiently handle frequent problems, and that useful content is not needlessly duplicated.


For example, in my most frequented tag the NPE equivalent is None error:

>>> seq.append(3)
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'append'

There are myriad ways to trigger this – incorrect error handling, unreachable return, misunderstanding recursion, mishandling methods, ... – so there cannot be a single answer to solve the issue. The two most-voted answers for the canonical duplicate are paraphrased:

  • "What you accessed does not mean what you think it does", as unhelpful as it gets.
  • "You tried to access None", a rehash of the question itself.

This is followed by a loose collection of badly presented specific issues and workarounds. Whether this helps anyone is sheer luck.


In contrast, there are many canonicals on specific causes when encountering None, each of which presents actionable solutions.

  • misunderstanding recursion – "You must return on the recursive call as well."
  • mishandling mutating methods – "Do not assign the result of list.append/dict.update/..."
  • tkinter variable – "Do not .pack before assignment"
  • ...

Even when a new question is posed in a generic way, tag experts can easily identify the specific cause and dupe-vote to quickly provide solutions.

5
  • "the purpose and benefit of duplicates is to link the same answers" no, that analogy is the one that allowed the NPE question become what it is today. Just because the answer is contained on the target doesn't make two questions duplicates. The question should have been closed as too broad from the start. It was ill conceived in scope which allowed the solution creep that the answer lend itself to.
    – Braiam
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 18:03
  • @Braiam The point is to only or at least primarily link the same answers. The NPE question doesn't do that - it forcefully combines some vaguely related answers. It works badly for linking similar answers because of all the other tangents it links as well. Commented Apr 1, 2021 at 16:17
  • Ok, let me step back, because this point is more about the abstract purpose of duplicates rather than the example, which is what I take issue is, not the rest of the answer. The way we have to make sure that all information is contained in a single canon question is close as duplicate question (sadly the message got reworded but it read as "this question has been asked before"). Disparate questions can have all the same answers, but they aren't duplicates, so using something other than the question to establish duplicate question is what got us with the NPE answer.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 2, 2021 at 1:57
  • Since the NPE answer didn't cover other NPE reasons people were using it as a dumping ground, they added them when askers complained that "the answer isn't there". If we change our ideology around duplicates, this problem would have been adverted by: a) not using that as duplicate since it isn't the same question, b) recognizing that a single canon for all NPE isn't useful, c) figuring out that that question was ill crafted.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 2, 2021 at 1:59
  • @Braiam I think we are saying basically the same thing, just viewed from a different starting point. Incidentally, I've just seen a question dupe-closed to the Python None canonical - and even knowing the solution I would be hard pressed to say how that answers anything in practice. As mentioned in your answer here, the dupe addressed the Y to the question's X. Commented Apr 2, 2021 at 15:07
8

Some canonicals come with very good answers that describe the root cause of the problem, which help readers gain helpful insights about their problem. Many (most) of the people that run into a NPE and ask a question here don't know what a NPE is, and why it occurs, and for those people, if they are willing, reading the answers to the canonical question helps them improve their knowledge.

Of course, we could give the asker a fish, by giving the solution to his problem (e.g. add a nil check), or could teach him how to fish. And canonical questions are the way to do this.

I don't consider canonical questions the equivalent of RTFM, because (good) canonical questions are focused to one specific problem, and give solutions to that problem. And also help the readers learn along the way.

5

There's something of an ongoing struggle here on SO but also on many sites - this struggle with duplicate questions and disagreements between high-reputation users about when a question should be answered and when it should be closed. This is, I think, often tied to this concept we have of questions needing to have value to more than one person, askers needing to put in a good amount of effort to self-solve prior to asking, and wanting to save the work of people by not needing to answer every question every time it's asked here.

These are important central concepts here but I think we should also consider "everything in moderation" to some degree. If an answer gets so bulky that it takes a long time to actually find the answer you need then it's not really very much more helpful than digging through 50 pages of documentation - we just happen to have it on SO so that you can dig through it here rather than there.

Friction points for duplicate questions

Before I talk too much about canonical questions I want to think about duplicates from the asker and curator viewpoints. I will admit that my experience here is largely anecdotal other than having my one and only SO question briefly closed as a duplicate of a canonical regex question and strongly disagreeing with that closure. So I will say that I've been following along to the discussions here for a bit about the issues related to this and thinking about it a lot.

For the askers, the experience of having a question closed at a duplicate can go a number of ways (assume that there's many I'm missing):

  1. Hey, that solved my problem, thanks!
  2. That doesn't answer my question. (it actually doesn't, it's just a wrong duplicate)
  3. I don't understand how that answers my question. (often due to the asker being new to the technology and not knowing how to understand what may be a very complicated explanation)
  4. How the heck am I supposed to find my answer in 16 pages of text?

While this question generally focuses on the last of those, I think that duplicates are part of a bigger issue. And, of course, this doesn't take into account cases where a duplicate attracts a ton of downvotes.

For answerers and curators, there's a different set of considerations (there may be more I'm not listing here but these were the ones that came to mind):

  1. This is an exact duplicate of a question and I can easily link to it.
  2. This question looks like a canonical question - but it isn't because there's something different about it.
  3. This question is different but the solution is the same as another question.
  4. It takes more time to find a duplicate than it does to just write the answer again.
  5. The canonical answer does address this but I'm not certain the asker would understand it, so I'd like to put it in simpler terms.
  6. The canonical answer does address this but the answer is so long writing a new answer would make it easier for the asker to find their solution and move forward.

Again, the last one is where the focus of this question lies but addressing it more holistically might be in order here. Here we're ignoring the more social aspects of askers arguing or complaining about closure.

(Aside, for either groups I'm happy to explain these in more detail or, if you have additional ones I'd be interested to know about them)

The first in both situations is the lowest friction for everyone - for the asker, they get linked to a duplicate question that immediately addresses their own and they walk away with the information they need.The rest of the situations all come with an element of friction that can make the situation difficult - often for both parties.

One of the things that I appreciate about the question here and the answers is how much it seems that y'all are aware of the strains on both.

Shortcomings of the duplicate closure system

So, why do those strains exist? I'd say that a lot are caused by our system not having a great way to handle duplicates that allows close voters to help the asker with their specific problem. And this occurs even when there isn't a canonical duplicate.

This is a primary concern when it comes to these encyclopedic canonical answers. If an answer is 20k characters and my specific question is answered in a 200 character snippet somewhere in the middle, it's kinda painful to be pointed at the canonical answer as a whole and tasked with digging through it - keeping in mind that if I understood my problem, I might have found the answer without having asked the question - so even if the canonical answer has great headings to help me find my section, I may not know what I'm even looking for there.

The solutions available to a close voter in these cases are:

  1. Close and leave a comment that either contains a quote of the specific solution or points to where on the page it can be found.
  2. Answer the question with the specific solution (and either vote to close as a duplicate or not)
  3. Just close the question as a duplicate and hope they can find the right section on their own.

I've seen the first option used from time to time and it's generally pretty helpful, though it can add to that meme of "the question was closed as a duplicate and answered in a comment". That's not necessarily a terrible thing but it can look to users unfamiliar with our platform like comments are a place for answers.

The second option can be wrought with pain for the answerer - some go out of their way to discourage answering close-worthy questions and it's not uncommon for people to experience cognitive dissonance when a question is answered and voted closed by the same person. That said, within how our platform currently functions, this may actually be the closest to best solution for these cases. It both helps the asker with their specific question without looking like we're abusing the system.

The third option is the lowest effort on the part of the close voter but leaves the asker's fate uncertain. While we do want them to put in some effort, we also recognize that the answer is big and they may struggle to find what their specific answer.

So, are canonical duplicates good?

Like most of the answers here, I think it depends. I've created canonical answers on sites before and benefitted from others, so I know that they can be of value but I think that value is generally found in a few cases, either in conjunction or alone:

  1. The answer is relatively short. It only takes a few minutes to scan the information. The site is saving a potentially large number of questions but the answers to each of those questions would be short and might even answer each other. The easiest example for me to grab is one I created on Arts & Crafts. The entire answer is very compact and easy to search - even more so now if I were to convert it to a table, now that we have them.
  2. The answer is easily searched based on terms the asker already knows. These answers may be long but they don't require specialized knowledge to find the answer needed. There's not necessarily a ton of text or explanation. One of my favorite canonical questions is like this - it's the question on Cooking about cooking terminology differences between different English variants. Even the most beginner cook trying to understand what "rocket" is in a UK recipe will be able to search "rocket" on that page and find that it means "arugula" in US English. The page is also sorted into sections by type of item.
  3. Instead of one answer, there's multiple curated answers with anchors in the question. This is most commonly used on meta in my experience for things like FAQs. This style can make it much easier to help a user get to their specific solution because a close voter could link to the specific short answer directly rather than the 20k character behemoth. Here's an example on MSE about moderating chat.

I understand that the concept of #3 is a bit of a departure from our existing format and, in fact, the guidance for the Wiki lock tool specifically recommends that all of the content exist in a single answer that is community editable but, while I agree that preventing new answers is beneficial in many cases for these sorts of questions, I don't think that trying to compress all of the content into a single answer - particularly when we don't have page anchors within posts - is great for these long answers.

What I will say is that I feel pretty strongly that helping askers find an answer is the right thing here, rather than just getting rid of canonicals because they're just dumping grounds for bad questions - the reasons people are asking these questions so frequently is because they are all struggling to understand something and, while an experienced dev may find this easy to diagnose and fix, people who are new to programming entirely or to a language in general are very likely to run into this issue. As a place that's supposed to serve as "a library of detailed answers to every question about programming", not having an answer about these very common issues seems to go against that purpose.

These canonical answers are often the most detailed and in-depth guides to this around and are, if someone took the time to read them, excellent resources - as you say yourself

On the other hand, the answer's thoroughness means that almost anybody with an NRE who does take the time to read through it, should find a solution to their problem.

As such, I think the issue isn't that canonical posts are useless, but that we don't do a good enough job of helping users make use of them.

How can we make canonical posts more useful within the current system?

I think getting them into alignment with the three points above would be a good place to start and they all work with the current system. Now, the type of information you're trying to capture may likely make 1 and 2 impossible but, through some effort, converting to type 3 may be possible and lead to easier usage.

In some cases, the canonical just got too broad, as BoltClock said and a good trim may help bring it back to usefulness. Get it back to the heart of the question and let caveats be handled in other places. Or, consider breaking it up into several questions that focus on specific things. These are still canonical but they're more refined and honed.

Do actually clean up and remove superfluous answers - while I have already said that I think compressing everything into one answer is a problem, leaving a bunch of partial or duplicate answers is a problem, too. That null pointer exception question has 28 undeleted answers - that seems like a lot for a canonical question - now, I can't judge if they're all still necessary but I'm sure y'all can.

When you vote to close something as a duplicate, do your best to help the asker find the part of the answer they need so they can more easily identify which of the myriad solutions in the answer is their solution. Remember that they may not be able to recognize that on their own. How you do that is, of course, still complicated as there are things to be aware of if you're answering or leaving a comment to get their situation solved.

What could potentially make them more useful but would require feature changes?

Y'all probably have a longer list of these than I do but here are some that I think would help - do note that me listing them here doesn't mean we're going to build them but they're ideas of things that might be worth discussing - I'd be interested to see if you also think they'd be of value

  • Supporting page anchors in Markdown. My understanding is that MD doesn't natively support these but that adding support to some degree (using headers) may actually be possible already but there are complications regarding the same headers being used in multiple posts and that sort of thing - not insurmountable but would require some thought. This would allow someone to link to a specific solution really easily without having dozens of answers.
  • Supporting some sort of way to highlight or quote text within a duplicate target that specifically addresses the question asked. This would allow close voters to indicate the part of a very long answer that the asker should pay close attention to - Tim Post had mentioned this idea a while back and called it "Answering as a duplicate".
  • Making upkeep of canonical (wiki?) answers more rewarding by sharing reputation with the top contributors to that answer. While many curators don't need additional reputation, this might be a way to incentivise improvements to these answers.
  • Finding ways to simplify the cleanup of existing Wiki-locked canonical posts so that curators can strip them down to their core answer and make the whole thing easier to follow.

11
  • I'm not very comfortable with the entire "The questioner must do their research", which you've repeated multiple times. The problem is that lots of how-to questions doesn't need to include a long list of research nor any attempts. Your post on Arts & Crafts is a good example of a "No research - Low effort" question. It has value nonetheless.
    – Scratte
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 22:04
  • 2
    I understand that - and it's a line I struggle to straddle. I've recently talked somewhat about this internally and I thought about it here, too but didn't go there. In general it feels like there's a strong preference for users to put in some effort when asking a question and I generally agree with that. Dumping a homework question or a code issue and telling the people here to fix it is problematic for the site and I want to avoid that. That said, I also don't feel like we should expect people to spend hours researching before posting and if it seems like I do, I should address that.
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 22:10
  • Now I do spend an hour or two preparing most of the questions I ask on sites - googling, citing sources, etc - that's what I did when I asked my question on SO but I know as a newbie to a lot of programming concepts there are a ton of terms I'm just not going to know off the bat and I don't think we should expect a minimum level of knowledge to ask here. There's also an element I don't know how to equate to SO but that I have a clear example of on M&TV - the concept of "we're not here to duplicate ___ resource" in their case, IMDB. (cont)
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 22:12
  • You're right that it's a different topic. I strongly feel it needs to be addressed at some point soon. "Dumping homework" is a bad term though. One cannot know the origin and it shouldn't matter. If a Question is too broad it will be closed anyway. I don't think I've ever found a solution on Stack Overflow that wasn't posted on a "No research -. Low effort"-post. To me they're the jewels that make the site.
    – Scratte
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 22:13
  • On M&TV, they're not going to list all of the actors who appeared in every movie of all time - that's just... a waste of their time because it doesn't fit the format and there's already a platform (IMDb) that does it better than M&TV ever could - and so, if someone asked "Who played Han Solo in Star Wars?" The question will get closed - they're not going to create a canonical question to list all of the actors and their roles in the various Star Wars movies.
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 22:14
  • I think "homework" questions can be excellent questions - on any of the sites but I do know that someone posting their exact homework problem without showing their own effort, where they're stuck or any additional context is definitely an issue - and I appreciate that SO has a close reason specifically for them that tries to guide askers to add more details so that they can actually get the help they need. I do think it's interesting how our highest-voted questions are largely exactly that - low effort sort of thing - for example, I'm sure there's tons of resources about how to get out of Vi.
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 22:19
  • I understand. I would assume it's easier to find out who played Han Solo somewhere else than asking that on the stack exchange site. But since we're on Star Wars, I think we need more good force and less imperial march ;) Which is what I found in this part of your Answer: "..do your best to help the asker find the part of the answer they need so they can more easily identify which of the myriad solutions in the answer is their solution."
    – Scratte
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 22:20
  • Why isn't "4. Breaking these answers into more pointed questions" included in the solutions? It's very cheap from the SO stand point.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 1, 2021 at 15:56
  • @Braiam "In some cases, the canonical just got too broad, as BoltClock said and a good trim may help bring it back to usefulness. Get it back to the heart of the question and let caveats be handled in other places. Or, consider breaking it up into several questions that focus on specific things. These are still canonical but they're more refined and honed."
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Apr 1, 2021 at 16:00
  • Well Catija, that's a way to bury the led. I was mainly focusing on your short list of "solutions available to a close voter". That is also available to the close voter, since they also have editing privileges ;)
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 2, 2021 at 1:52
  • @Braiam Ah - in my mind, that section is speaking about the close voter for a specific question - someone who has the time to handle the new question but not necessarily the willingness to take on a bigger problem. Those three things relate to what can be done to the new question, which your #4 wouldn't fit with - but the whole section that quote comes from is titled "How can we make canonical posts more useful within the current system?", so I don't think it's particularly hidden? ;)
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Apr 2, 2021 at 1:55
3

As Pekka once wrote in a different unrelated question's answer,

We are trying to build something that benefits the world at large, not just the one person having the problem.

This is where canonical posts are worth their weight. They're designed in a way that anyone that has the same question, in this case a NRE, will be able to see an answer where given the time to read it will give them the answer. The duplicate flag is being added to the question, so that if someone else comes across the new OP's post before the canonical, they'll know where to find an answer.

3

Yes, they are useful, the problem is that the example you bring forward isn't a canonical question. Why? Because, each question is the canon of the problem they describe. That question doesn't describe a problem... well actually an XY problem. And that's something we should be very careful when creating a canon question for error messages.

When an error message has several potential causes, it's more useful framing it in the context of "I'm doing X, and Y message appears", since that's what a good asker would do: explain what they are trying to accomplish, how they try to accomplish it and what are the results of their attempts. Artificially created canon questions tend to run afoul of this and, sadly, the users take these as an outlet of their frustration and defend it like a totem. But their frustrations aren't appalled by the creation of these questions, because readers, understandably frustrated too, aren't able to have enough motivation to read the verbose answers that those questions create.

Solution: break that question into actual problems. Stop trying to pretend that people are looking for explanations of what a error message means, and instead present a solution to their problem.

2

But let's take a step back here: NREs are one of the simplest issues to understand, debug and fix. 99% of the time they're caused by a fundamentally silly mistake, and can easily be located and therefore resolved by inspecting the stack trace. 99% of the time, people asking questions about NREs simply haven't performed that simple step, either because they're too inexperienced or too lazy.

Then this typical case/method/situation should be mentioned first, at beginning of the 18 page article.

What should resolve the issue, right? Maybe even explicitly divide it into "typical NRE case" and "289289 obscure reasons for NRE".

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