167

@Sayse Why is it that Stackoverflow users are more passionate about stackoverflow than helping people? ....... It's a very simple answer.

So the above (shortened for meta) comment is what was waiting in my notification inbox this morning by another disgruntled new user that didn't like my advice about reading how-to-ask on their off-topic question.

Now normally I'd write a comment explaining how it can actually help more in the long term by having Stack Overflow's guidelines followed, but of course this only helps this one user...

Is there a canonical meta post I can link to that can be used to help the masses? Can there be?


As stated in the comments, this question is not a duplicate of the given since that question is asking what are peoples reasons for participating on Stack Overflow. I'm asking if there is something that can be linked to users that would explain why we're sometimes seen as unhelpful and unwilling to answer yet another request for free labour.

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  • 56
    I don't think that how-to-ask is really what you wanted it to be... and your title is pretty confusing.
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 8:11
  • 95
    Pf... Just another one who wants SO to be his personal helpdesk. And is quite disgruntled when it turns out it isn't. Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 8:13
  • 9
    Well just "Stack Overflow users" would be better than "Stackoverflow". Still sllightly confusing, but at least less self-contradictory...
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 8:16
  • 24
    'but of course this only helps this one user' - that's extemely optimistic. To many 'users', it's just a waste of typing because it's not the homework answer they wanted, and anything except that is annoying noise. Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 8:20
  • 3
    @gnat: No, that's not a duplicate of this. Not by a mile. There's a misunderstanding on the part of the commentator (not the OP) that needs to be resolved before they could appreciate the answer there.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 9:14
  • 30
    When he posts that comment then he already knows. SO hands out free cocaine-laced programmer candy, never listen to the arguments of an addict for another fix. Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 9:18
  • 3
    Why is Stack Overflow so negative of late?
    – gnat
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 9:36
  • 17
    Why is Stack Overflow perceived to be so negative – the distance some are prepared to go just to help.
    – Jongware
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 9:57
  • 15
    "downvotes are taken so damn personal..."
    – gnat
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 11:39
  • 19
    There are people who think that if there is a question mark at the end of their title (implicit or otherwise) that it is a genuine question, and should be given and answer, and anyone who doesn't answer is simply wasting time and should just move on without causing a disturbance. They'll either learn, or they won't. It's not just an SO/SE thing either. "I'm looking at page 38 of the manual, can someone tell me what is on page 39, please" Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 13:45
  • 10
    Analogy Time, anyone?
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 14:03
  • 12
    Why can't people see how SO works instead of asking open ended questions or demanding code be written for them?
    – mrbungle
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 15:52
  • 5
    Since the title is actually only a quote and not a personal opinion, perhaps put it in quotes? I mean its a fun title, I was misled and trolled by it. Well played.
    – Gimby
    Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 9:55
  • 5
    @labyrinth: That's a loaded question - begging the question refers to circular reasoning.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 14:58
  • 6
    It's not like people would pour their heart and soul into an answer only to have it either rejected or ignored...
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 18:15

12 Answers 12

169

Why is it that Stackoverflow users are more passionate about stackoverflow than helping people?

Because we are trying to build something that benefits the world at large, not just the one person having the problem.

Helping an endless succession of individual users who, for all you know, could be undeserving of your help1 would burn you out in no time.

That we have the notion of a greater good dangling in front of us, glossing over the question whether the individual question asker deserves our help or not is a feature, not a bug.

Because most of us are nice people (you have to be to some degree, in order to partake in a project like this), we usually are also very passionate about helping individual people.

But that is an optional extra, not a right.

1. For example: people too lazy to Google; people offloading the burden of learning a new technology to the community; people with no business being programmers in the first place; people who offered themselves up as cheap replacements of actual programmers, in the knowledge that SO will do part of their job for them; people and companies who outsource their research to SO so they can underbid those who don't; fraudsters; criminals or terrorists building something evil; etc.

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    Just as small comment: One cannot completely separate the world at large from the individual users. The first is made up of many of the latter. That way SO is both: Wikipedia and Helpdesk. It will never be possible to completely separate one part of it from the other. Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 16:02
  • 11
    @Trilarion absolutely. In practice, the individual user gets lots of help here if they show some effort. It's just not a given, never will be.
    – Pekka
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 16:10
  • 8
    Watch it with that small type, those are the Valued SE Investors you are talking about. Hehe. Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 20:11
  • 3
    Your subtext reminds me of the "side-effects" read out at the end of a drug-commercial, or the fine print in a car-dealer's advertisement
    – CubeJockey
    Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 14:21
  • @Ajedi32: As of 2016, "outsourcing" may better describe it. Or possibly Pekka meant to say "upsetting".
    – Jongware
    Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 15:10
  • @Jongware "offloading" is indeed the perfect word, it was what I was looking for!
    – Pekka
    Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 17:20
  • 1
    "people with no business being programmers in the first place; people who offered themselves up as cheap replacements of actual programmers...". Unfortunately, I never went to school for programming. never took a class outside of Basic in HS, fell into this job when I worked for a trading firm that laid off it's entire IT department and asked me to learn SAS. I'm 50 years old and it's too late to start a new career, so sorry to be undeserving of your help.. Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 18:46
  • 28
    @JohnnyBones You're reading way too much into Pekka's answer if you think he is directing it to include you (unless you actually are one of those people). The sort of people who legitimately should not be programmers are those who are incapable of thinking logically, lack the curiosity to try and figure things out for themselves, or are incapable of taking a large problem and breaking it down into smaller problems. P.S. I fully expected to have a career in the arts and "never went to school for programming" either.
    – cimmanon
    Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 20:15
  • 16
    @JohnnyBones not sure why you would feel that anything in my list applied to you. I never went to programming school, either
    – Pekka
    Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 22:35
  • 17
    i.sstatic.net/4mHqM.jpg
    – gnat
    Commented Jan 21, 2016 at 5:45
  • 5
    I really like this answer and wish more people who wish to ask/answer a question realise they are trying to collaborate on this mission and in order to do that they also need to offer something useful to that. I've accepted this answer as I believe that if i were to be linked this question as a disgruntled user, my frame of mind would be more inclined to take in information in this than Yakk's answer - but please, if you take the time to read this, also take the time to read that one too
    – Sayse
    Commented Jan 21, 2016 at 7:45
  • 6
    I've done two AMAs at a code boot camp where I volunteer as a mentor because of my involvement with SO. In both sessions, I've found that these students - who are passionate about learning - are really afraid of asking questions on SO because they see what happens when you don't know enough to know when you're asking a good question. I tell them to read the FAQ about asking a good question then just go ahead and ask, doing the best you can, then ignore any assholes who crop up.
    – tvanfosson
    Commented Jan 21, 2016 at 22:16
  • @tvanfosson that sounds like good advice. I hope nothing in my post can be read as encouraging being rude to anyone (least of all people who read the FAQ, and care about asking a good question)
    – Pekka
    Commented Jan 21, 2016 at 23:04
  • 4
    @gnat That is the best picture I have ever seen.
    – skrrgwasme
    Commented Jan 22, 2016 at 22:45
  • 3
    @skrrgwasme answerer is its author
    – gnat
    Commented Jan 23, 2016 at 5:29
245

I don't care if you get your question answered.

I enjoy solving puzzles, and the throw-away code I write here is good practice (I can screw up with little long-term consequences, and the 20th time I write a snippet I write it better).

I attempt to answer questions in a way that helps other people who are reading the question, not you. Your question is an inspiration for a performance, not the purpose of my answer. The purpose of the performance is amusing myself, and helping other people who stumble upon it. Those other people far outnumber you by factors of dozens, hundreds, thousands or (in some very rare cases) millions.

I don't care if you get your question answered.

Having an interesting problem to solve is fun and interesting. Having a poorly worded problem isn't. Having a problem where you tried your best, and when asked to cooperate do so enthusiastically, is also fun and useful: answers are better when there is practical use case to test it against, and not just code-for-code's sake. When I can show how to solve a related problem, and you run with it, that's fun.

It isn't nearly as interesting to have to write out an answer to your homework problem, when you require code that will copy/paste solve your issue. And such answers will mostly only help you.

I don't care if you get your question answered.

I like helping people; but you in particular? I could go either way.

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    This is a very good personal view. Indeed at times I've done the same - and so did others as well. In the past I have written gimme-the-codez answers just for the heck of it.
    – Jongware
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 15:49
  • 10
    And for askers it's the exact opposite: to them it mostly matters if the question gets answered, So I guess for your case it means that the questioners should try to present the question as puzzle like and fun like as possible. That's surely an important lesson for them to learn. Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 17:07
  • 5
    Hehe, mother Teresa was no saint either :) Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 19:49
  • 2
    @HansPassant not yet, but it won't be long! theguardian.com/news/2015/dec/18/…
    – eis
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 22:17
  • 11
    This is my favourite answer, but I can't help shake the feeling that you don't care if they don't get their question answered :)
    – Whymarrh
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 22:19
  • 80
    Brilliant. I'm so tired of this SOReadytoHelp BS. I'm here because it's fun. When it stops be fun I won't be here anymore. And all the crybabies who never heard of Google or can't read a documentation or can't understand that we don't read minds- couldn't care less about what they think. Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 22:29
  • 71
    This doesn't work for me. Can you explain your answer step-by-step in detail? :)
    – user4039065
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 22:53
  • 3
    +1 Same here. I'd like to add that I want everything I have written on SO to be freely available to anybody in the world without any license attached.
    – camden_kid
    Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 14:47
  • 6
    NTS: if I ever have a question for Yakk, post it with a sock puppet so he'll unwittingly answer my question.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 15:03
  • @BoltClock: Do we have statistics about the number of anonymous views compared to SO users' view? It would substantiate the claim that "others" outnumber the OP (I could not find the numbers myself :x). Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 18:26
  • 2
    @MatthieuM. There is one OP. Very few questions get fewer than 2 viewers. As such, "other"s outnumber OP's. You don't need to know SO viewers vs anonymous viewers to know that. Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 18:42
  • 13
    The problem is that there seem to be a lot of members here -- not necessarily you, Yakk -- who want a very specific kind of puzzle, and they get pretty hissy when presented with anything else. It has to be a certain kind of puzzle with a certain kind of well-defined answer, and the OP has to present all the clues in the right order so that the solver can display his expertise with a minimum of effort. If the question -- through no fault of the OP's -- is not amenable to effortless armchair expostulation, it's a "bad question", and it's liable to be downvoted, closed, or deleted. Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 20:22
  • 2
    This really is a brilliant answer and the only reason I've accepted Pekka's answer over this is the fact that I believe that as a disgruntled user, I'd be more likely to take in what is said in that answer than yours, but I hope everyone I do link this question to in the future will also read this
    – Sayse
    Commented Jan 21, 2016 at 7:47
  • 4
    @Yakk: The view count does not distinguish would-be answerers from answer-seekers. Anonymous viewers however are much more unlikely to have come seeking to answer, so I was thinking that knowing the ratio of anonymous views would help us extrapolate the number of people coming purely to seek an answer (and not in the hope of getting some reputation). Commented Jan 21, 2016 at 11:19
  • 4
    This is a shame.
    – thor
    Commented Jan 23, 2016 at 14:07
32

There are a lot of perceptions about what is acceptable to ask on Stack Overflow, and then there's what's actually acceptable to ask. This is the root of the misguided comment above; their perception has not aligned with reality.

That's not to say that this isn't uncommon, or even inexcusable. I know that Stack Overflow is a complicated beast of rules, regulations, and unspoken rules and regulations at times, and sussing through it can be a bit of a headache. The How to Ask page does an okay job of bridging the gap, but the likelihood is that the asker has already encountered some unanticipated friction in them getting their question answered.

The best advice I suppose I could give would be to keep linking to the How to Ask page, since it provides comprehensive information about how one should ask, but it alone isn't sufficient in the face of one asking for recommendations, or asking for people to write their code, or for someone insisting that their problem is "urgent" and that they are willing to pay to get it resolved.

For those questions, the (and a close vote if necessary) is your best option as it provides a wealth of knowledge authored by the community itself, for certain situations. This question and answer, even though it's not an FAQ response itself, is also especially good for those who've had their question put on hold/closed.

Even in spite of that, there are times in which a user just doesn't want to accept that Stack Overflow isn't here at their beck and call, and that's when you should just let it go. All the advice in the world on how to write a good question here wouldn't help if their sole focus is getting their "urgent" question answered, especially if it's unsuitable for the site.

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  • 1
    I've started only linking to how to ask now for only the most stubborn of users that just won't accept other attempts.. The faq does look like it holds an answer for most user queries and imo it would be nice if it included something that explained why our guidelines can appear stringent at times.
    – Sayse
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 9:31
  • This Q/A from the linked FAQ is also worth pointing out. Its answer is both: welcoming and guiding.
    – sthzg
    Commented Apr 22, 2016 at 8:19
25

I've been thinking about this lately as well. @Makoto points out good points in their answer: there are a lot of (transient) rules, both written and unwritten, and not only askers but also answerers do not know what rule set is currently valid and actively enforced.

So while you're trying to educate a user for why their question isn't particularly good, in the meantime another user will make an (un)educated guess and post an answer to the unclear, too broad or off-topic question. And that makes me a sad panda.

The goal of the site is and has always been to provide a repository of clear, concise, definitely answerable questions. Not "I want a program to do X, Y and Z, give me code, now.". I don't think we can re-educate the entire existing internet population of inexperienced developers that this site is not there for them to get their questions answered. We cannot let them realise that their answers are already here, but that they'll have to work for it. Search, research, read, try, debug.

It's basic skills that they lack, so they will not be able to figure out their problem on their own, so they need help, and quick.

So what you seem to be looking for, namely an exhaustive list of "What questions can I ask here", is not going to solve anything, because askers and answerers alike are going to ignore it.

What we can try, is re-evaluate whether the original purpose of the site is still valid, and whether the currently active rules (both written and living in the minds of users) still work together towards that goal. And if so, whether those rules are clear, fair, concise and available to everyone in one page.

One solution would be to be more strict. Use more punishing (example: answering a question that gets closed as a duplicate quickly after? You actually lose reputation, for not searching). Ask a certain amount of questions that get closed as duplicate? Get a "learn to search"-ban. In general, ban more freely and longer (a string of users who persistently post poor questions that I've reported over the last couple of months simply continue the same way after their ban is lifted, but then they ignore my comments or delete their question if they've seen me). Exclude certain IP address ranges.

But that won't necessarily improve the popularity of the site, and I'm absolutely not pleading for the pedantic paradise where everyone is living in the "utopia" where rules are king, where users are second-class citizens and where every new question has actually already been answered or is unclear or too broad. That would be boring.

What I would like to see is that the existing users put less emphasis on reputation and helping people and more application and evaluation of the relevant rules, because those were created to facilitate building a great collection of questions and answers that apply way more broadly than "Halp my code broke". One comment asking an insightful question can provide more enlightenment than a "Here, I fixed your code"-answer that sets the asker on fire.

So: downvote and close-vote more freely. Comment before answering if you see gaps in a question. Try to find a duplicate before starting to type an answer. Don't pity-upvote.

As long as there are users who try to answer every question they can, without evaluating that question's use for the site and future visitors (as opposed to working together to building better canonical Q&As, closing off crap and editing posts), you don't stand a chance, and all of your comments criticizing any question or answer are open for abuse by the OP and like-minded individuals. Because "you're being the boogeyman, and other users are way nicer because they answer my question without complaining that it sucks".

If you've got the feeling that you're fighting alone, you've already lost.

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    "I want a program to do X, Y and Z, give me code, now" is not off-topic (any longer) according to the official party line, as far as I understand - it is a possible candidate for downvotes though.
    – assylias
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 12:13
  • 2
    @assylias: that sounds new to me. Someone like this should be expecting an answer? Any reference on that?
    – Jongware
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 12:48
  • 4
    @Jongware meta.stackoverflow.com/a/283185/829571 and meta.stackexchange.com/a/223482/179508 for example.
    – assylias
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 13:01
  • 5
    @assylias From what I recall, such questions are closable as too broad.
    – dandan78
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 13:04
  • 1
    @dandan78 Depends on what is being asked - "How do I create a site like twitter.com" is too broad - I don't think the question linked by Jongware is off-topic. I may be wrong...
    – assylias
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 13:09
  • 16
    It's exactly nonsense like that ("it might be useful for people in the future") that keeps questions like that around, and it's the meta.SO answers of <5K rep users that keep the illusion alive that those are "the rules". It will not be useful for anyone else, unless that someone has the exact same requirements - to which the chances are slim. Now I loathe the regex tag and avoid it like the plague, because every single question in that tag is "write this regex for me", which in my opinion goes against everything that Stack Overflow stands, or at least stood for.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 13:14
  • 4
    @CodeCaster I agree but I don't think your view is in line with the official guidelines (they terminated too localised...).
    – assylias
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 13:29
  • 5
    @assylias I know, and I pity that. Most questions that earlier were "too localized" now are "too broad" though. :) If you want to, like the linked example, "list files of a certain extension, iterate over them and then perform an action when their name or contents contain a certain string", then what you need is to be pointed to like five duplicates, not get a custom-tailored answer. At least, that's what I'd like to see.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 13:32
  • 4
    I agree with large portions of your answer (especially the sad panda feeling) but I'm undecided on whether being stricter will actually help or deter new contributors. @assylias - The given answer to a different one of my questions (Is showing effort needed?) came to the conclusion that "Work orders .. should be flagged as "too broad".
    – Sayse
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 13:42
  • 2
    @Syase that paragraph was kind of tongue-in-cheeck, check the "But..." after it.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 13:47
  • 5
    "Try to find a duplicate before starting to type an answer." This. I wish more people would. Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 15:40
  • 5
    unfortunately @assylias is correct, the charter changed a long time ago, when they took quality out of the charter for the site and basically replaced it with quantity. The new charter says; With your help, we're working together to build a library of detailed answers to every question about programming. makes it extremely clear that quantity is valued over quality now, otherwise they would have kept the word quality in the charter statement. This was inevitable, otherwise the site would become extremely static content as 99% of all problems have been asked over the years.
    – user177800
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 16:01
  • 8
    Also note that being able to find existing answers often revolves around knowing the right terminology. I've posted a question before that was immediately flagged as a duplicate, but didn't know to search for the term used in the original. The reviewer immediately connected my term and their term, which I was not able to do. So there is some value in that process as well, even though it seems to frustrate reviewers. Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 16:03
  • 1
    @Daniel you're right about that.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 16:12
  • 4
    One solution would be to be more strict. Use more punishing (example: answering a question that gets closed as a duplicate quickly after? You actually lose reputation, for not searching). - There is a somewhat similar feature request on MSE for losing rep when you answer a question shortly before it's closed.
    – BSMP
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 21:09
13

Makoto already answered your core question about a good resource to point the users to, so I'll just answer your titular question.

"Why are Stack Overflow users more passionate about Stack Overflow than helping people?"

This isn't really a fair question, and it's not very well-defined (which incidentally is a common complaint of many downvoted questions). Most "users more passionate about Stack Overflow" are also very passionate about helping people. Moderation activities and general improvements to the site are entirely about helping people. In fact, a major reason why many users dislike "help me fix my problem [code dump]" questions is that they are unlikely to help anyone beyond the OP. From a utilitarian viewpoint, this is absolutely the correct thing to do.

The key to the complaint is that the OP wasn't specifically helped in this instance. It can be a hard pill to swallow, but this kind of moderation is putting the group (Stack Overflow and the community) before the individual (the OP). It improves the site's question quality, which makes the answers to questions easier to search for and easier to understand. Sure, it's frustrating when your question is culled in the name of site quality, but ultimately it really does help the community as a whole. Downvoting/closing bad questions helps the good questions get more attention and, ultimately, more answers.

5
  • 2
    "I am voting to close this baseless accusation as Unclear, Too Broad, and Primarily Opinion Based." Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 19:01
  • @RandomLogic ? what's that referring to?
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 19:15
  • It refers to the comment referenced by this whole Q&A. It just seemed to be most in-line with the opinion expressed in this answer, though possibly more inflammatory. Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 19:16
  • Ok. I guess that's a summary for the rest of this post.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 19:18
  • As @ryanyuyu says, the question itself is ill-defined. I can sympathize on both sides of this issue. On the one hand the SO users who are slammed yet again for helping out, and on the other with the OP of the comment who frankly just doesn't know any better -- either with the problem at hand or with how to socially respond to a group they recently became a part of. SO is a society. It's bound to reflect both the pluses and minuses.
    – user2603432
    Commented Jan 21, 2016 at 4:14
12

There are so many analogies that would work here. I think of Stack Overflow like a quality establishment - say, a restaurant.

Ostensibly, a restaurant is a place where people go to eat. You might think, naively, that the purpose of the restaurant is to make food for people. It's not - it's so much more than that. A restaurant is a place for a chef to showcase their skills - to practice their craft and share the results with an audience that is there to appreciate it.

As a customer in a restaurant, your purpose is also not just to eat food - you have to be there for the right reasons, and follow the rules, since your very presence in the restaurant, and how you behave, has a direct impact on the experience of every other diner who is there to enjoy their evening.

If you show up to this restaurant not having washed for three months, wearing a Speedo and a Nixon mask, wanting to dance on the table or harass the other guests, asking the waiter for Spam on toast with a Colt45 to drink, you're going to be told to leave.

Why? Why does the restaurant not want to feed you? Entertain you? Isn't that what it's there for? You have money - you're willing to pay for your meal... what gives?

Our menace customer here makes several fatal mistakes. They fail to appreciate what the restaurant is about, they have no regard for the chefs or their craft, they have no regard for the other customers nor do they appreciate how their behaviour is negatively impacting the experience of others - in brief, they contribute nothing to the actual experience and ambiance that the restaurant is trying to construct. Furthermore, they actively ruin the experience for everyone else who is there for the right reasons.

The overriding purpose of Stack Overflow is to build a repository of quality information - information that is clear, complete, precise, and specific - with broad utility and lasting value. People who make valuable contributions, either in the form of good, well structured questions, or good, high-quality answers, are rewarded; the former with answers to their questions, the latter with an opportunity to be a gourmet code chef for a customer who will appreciate the finesse of the work they do.

Getting help is not the purpose of Stack Overflow - it is a reward for those who are here for the right reasons and who help to achieve the goals of the site. Rewards should never be expected - they are earned. If people do nothing to earn the help, they simply don't deserve it.

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  • 11
    Most users who don't get SO aren't quite as extreme as your Nixon-masked patron, they're more on the level of random Joe who arrives at a place with a formal dress code in a t-shirt and blue jeans. Their goal isn't to be disruptive, but they didn't bother checking to see what's considered appropriate first.
    – cimmanon
    Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 18:30
  • 3
    Or their failure to meet the dress code is because they're dressed in tattered rags, having just blundered into the restaurant after having been stranded on a desert island for a year, and they're starving, and not having spoken to anyone in all that time it's all they can do to croak out "I need some food", and they're rebuked and kicked out to the sidewalk because they failed to enunciate and say "please" and make reference to the menu and state what they'd already tried to solve their problem. Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 19:05
  • 2
    @cimmanon The example was extreme. Ask a mathematician to make you a table with four legs - they will first make you one with no legs, then one with an infinite number of legs and consider the rest of the cases trivial. Same thing.
    – J...
    Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 19:13
  • 8
    @SteveSummit This isn't about lacking compassion for such an individual - it's just not the place for them. The same chef who works the restaurant might also volunteer at the local soup kitchen, to extend the analogy. Your wayward starving traveller probably belongs at the soup kitchen - that is its purpose. Same as software development has tutorials, books, classes, courses, contractors, and other such options for people who are looking for those types of services. That doesn't change the fact that here is not the place for them.
    – J...
    Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 19:16
  • 2
    I understand that SO is not the place for people that SO is not the place for. My lament is that the people that SO is not the place for do not necessarily know that SO is not the place for them, so they often end up here. And they're often treated rather badly when they get here. (I'm talking about people that are truly lost, through no fault of their own. I'm not talking about the people who just want us to do their homework; I have no compassion for those idiots, either.) Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 20:17
10

Stack Overflow was created in order to address a specific need that was not being met efficiently previously. People would post answers to interesting broadly-applicable questions in mailing lists or forums, but they got buried under an avalanche of irrelevant posts and there was no good way to cull the good material from the vast amount of more ephemeral content.

The result was a tragedy-of-the-commons situation where contributors were discouraged because either the content got lost or they got pinged with unending questions. Stack Overflow's goal is to create an environment where content gets categorized efficiently, the good content is identified, and contributors are rewarded instead of getting penalized.

If people seem defensive about Stack Overflow it is because they want to preserve the site's usefulness and don't want to see the helpful content here buried under an avalanche of link-only posts, I'm-having-this-problem-too answers, and "fix the unspecified problem with my homework" questions.

The incentives created by gamification are there in order to encourage the kinds of posts that can be helpful to a wide audience, and discourage the sorts of questions that so individualized that they don't benefit anyone but the asker. The site is designed as a game that feeds off of questions, but they need to be the right kind of question. Not every question is a good fit here; if you require highly individualized guidance you may benefit more from other resources. There is still a place for forums, mailing lists, books, and talking to co-workers or your instructor.

1
  • 1
    This is true as well, some people actually think it is okay to ping authors years after their original involvement. They aren't actually thinking
    – prusswan
    Commented Feb 27, 2016 at 18:07
8

As Spock explained, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few” .. or “the one”.

The tricky part is a "one" sacrifices his time and energy the help the "needs of the many". If you alienate the "ones", they may never go on to help "the many". Sometimes, the needs of the "one" provides life for "the needs of the many." This is true not only in that they can help answer or improve other people's questions, but even the question itself can help other people.

The simple explanation is that this site is not about helping one person find the answer to their question, but about helping "the many" find answers to their question, whether from asking and getting answers or finding an question that already asked and answered what I wanted to know.

If the questions are duplicated or off-topic, it takes mental energy from the people answering and finding answers and ultimately doesn't help "the many" - which should be the real goal of the site and the people using it.

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    People don't seem to realize that users who are willing to sacrifice their time in order to help people on the internet, and who are good at providing readable, understandable answers that help many in the long run, are a scarce resource. You don't want to wear those people down. Some of those are perfectly fine with giving the same kind of answer day in day out; most aren't.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jan 21, 2016 at 15:08
  • Just in case it wasn't clear - I agree 100%. My point is even more - even for people that would be willing to give the same answer day in and day out - that's not the best for the people out there - they have to look through multiple questions to get the answer. Even if there is one "selected answer" quite often there are other answers or comments that help others with the same question. If that other helpful info is spread amongst several questions and "the many" will either have to look harder to find it or miss it altogether.
    – Yehosef
    Commented Jan 21, 2016 at 15:18
  • 1
    I was agreeing with your post as well, just offering some expanding on your last paragraph. :)
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jan 21, 2016 at 15:19
  • 1
    You had me at "As Spock explained...". :-)
    – jeffdill2
    Commented Jan 22, 2016 at 2:05
  • 1
    @jeffdill2: but didn't Spock die shortly after that speech? "Here, I spend my last hour writing this copy/paste ready code for you .... aaagh!"
    – Jongware
    Commented Jan 23, 2016 at 13:16
  • @Jongware indeed he did. :-(
    – jeffdill2
    Commented Jan 23, 2016 at 14:12
5

Stack Overflow's purpose is not to help users by answering their questions.
Stack Overflow's purpose is to build a repository of answers to questions.
Stack Overflow's users are doing a good job of upholding its purpose, and Stack Overflow has been successful at achieving it.

(With that said, personally, I really like helping users, and I've been much less active on Stack Overflow since I discovered that wasn't its primary purpose.)

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    The whole "helping users" thing is a nearly guaranteed side-effect of building a repository of answers to questions since.. you know.. there will be answers to users questions. Commented Jan 22, 2016 at 1:45
  • 2
    @BradleyDotNET: nearly guaranteed, but absolutely not absolutely guaranteed. Users who ask "bad" questions are punished, not helped. Answerers who try to answer "bad" questions can get punished, too -- and there are suggestions right here on this page for how to punish them further. This whole, occasionally rather smug, notion that "we are here to build a repository of high-quality answers" really does end up translating to "we don't care if you get your question answered", as explicitly and repeatedly expressed in the highest-rated answer on this page. Commented Jan 22, 2016 at 10:24
  • All very true, although I would contend that its not so much "we don't care if you get your question answered" as " we don't care if we put the answer to your question on this page/question" (duplicates) or "we don't care if your unintelligible question gets answered" (most of the rest) Commented Jan 22, 2016 at 17:52
  • 2
    @BradleyDotNET: That's true, too, although there's then the question of who'll be the judge of "unintelligible". I've lost track of the number of times I've answered a user's question, been thanked by the user, then watched the question get put on hold as vague or unanswerable. Yes, the OP in these cases is often badly confused -- but in my book, that's their right, and insisting that they have the wherewithal to always ask their question "intelligently" is (again in my book) tantamount to asking them to have the wherewithal to answer their question, and then, what's the point of the site? Commented Feb 17, 2016 at 17:10
  • Well, if you can understand the question and think salvaging is possible and cost-effective, you are encouraged to do so, and I would be very happy if you do. Commented Feb 27, 2016 at 20:30
0

It's all about the greater (or greatest) good. If we help someone but to do so is at the expense of the community at large, then we're really not helping anybody in the long run.

-2

Some people treat it like a game and enjoy playing the game (this may not be their only motivation however). Helping people may or may not be a motivation (but it can be a consequence).

-15

Sometimes I feel like there are too many rules, regulations and procedures on Stack Overflow. It took me litterally weeks figuring them out. In that way it favors guys who kind of live here and disfavors newcomers which risk getting their questions rather more often closed than getting the help to improve their questions so they can stay open.

Many of these policies are reasonable and they help a lot. Good questions and answers are paramount and maximize the benefit for everyone. I do not advocate not even for a single second that the standards of quality should be lowered in the long run, for anything that is preserved longer.

However, if you really want to help others you have to think what is indeed the best way to help them and nothing else. Once there was the idea of Stack Overflow Academy on Area 51, learn how to ask questions, but this proposal was rejected from the Stack Exchange side.

I believe that a bit less inside rules and more patience with newcomers could indeed maximize the helping effort. It's up to the answerers on Stack Overflow to provide this environment. But of course they are free to be passionate about whatever they want to be passionate. Maybe they are just here for the badges?

And as a last remark: Most of the time one gives advice about how to ask it is because one is passionate about helping (although sometimes I forget why I'm here). The ones who may be a bit less passionate about it only close vote without an immediate remark.

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    "The ones who are less passionate only close vote without a remark." - I disagree. Just because a comment wasn't left doesn't mean they aren't concerned. After a post is closed, there is a comment left explaining the votes. Posting the same thing that will be added by the system seems like a waste of time
    – Andy Mod
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 14:58
  • 1
    @Andy Thanks for the comment. I often find this particular remark comes a bit too late and may be too generic and sometimes wrong (if the close voters didn't agree). If I can make it more specific and earlier I sometimes waste my time and just do it. In this cases I actually feel like it was time well invested. I feel very passionate about it and it may be that others feel less passionate, without feeling no passion at all. Obviously you feel it too because you commented here. :) Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 15:07
  • 13
    "more patience with newcomers" - nope. The "How do I ask a good question?" page isn't that long. Also, down- and closevoting doesn't quite yield many badges.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 15:14
  • @CodeCaster Good example I would say. You are definitely passionate about SO but you may be a bit less passionate about newcomers on SO. I'm fine with it - don't get me wrong. Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 15:20
  • 22
    I have no problem at all with newcomers. I'm happy as long as a question shows that the asker read "How to ask" and applied what is mentioned in there: search, research, explain the problem and ask an answerable, on-topic questions. There are newcomers who are perfectly capable of doing that, and then there are 2K+ rep users with hundreds of questions to which I have to explain it under every question again. Also, closing is not permanent: it puts the question on hold until it has been improved.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 15:22
  • 11
    I don't feel like there is any unspoken rules. Everything that could cause your question to be closed or deleted is clearly written on the on-topic and dont-ask help pages. The "unspoken rules" that you might talk about, like don't put a signature in your messages and noise in general, pick the right tags, use formatting functionalities appropriately etc are all fixed by edits (which educate new users) and will not be valid reasons for a close vote.
    – vard
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 15:56
  • 1
    @vard Good point. With "unspoken rules" I meant knowledge about how things are handled, what to put into comments, ... things that newcomers usually do wrong and which is not covered by "on-topic" and "dont-ask". I changed it to "procedures". Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 16:07
  • 2
    @CodeCaster Close votes being impermanent is very much something that you need to learn though. No other site I know of has a system of "this post is disabled so that it can be fixed". It strongly reads as "this is trash so we've marked it as such". New users repeatedly feel this way even if they are putting in effort and their question isn't far from being on topic. Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 16:30
  • @SuperBiasedMan I don't think that "on hold" means "trash", just as I don't think downvotes are "mean". If someone thinks that, it just means they haven't read the help available, and haven't taken the time to learn the site. It took me several years before I asked my one and only question because I followed the directions in How to Ask and searched, then searched again. Almost every time I was able to find an answer to my questions, either here or on another site. I don't see why others can't do the same... although they might take less than "years" to get used to the site ;) Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 21:46
  • 2
    @MikeMcCaughan If everyone did as you did I wonder if SE would have grown as much as it did and if it would still even be here right now.
    – Cypher
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 22:57
  • 1
    @Cypher Like I said, maybe not "years". I don't think there has ever been a lack of questions, what with at least one new JavaScript framework being invented every few minutes. And almost all of them are poorly documented, so I think SO is a-okay for quite a while. Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 23:05
  • @MikeMcCaughan with at least one new JavaScript framework being invented every few minutes This cracked me up! Thanks for the laugh. :P
    – Cypher
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 23:06
  • @Cypher Maybe SE wouldn't be around, but the coding community would certainly be a better place for it. (And I think that it would be around, as it is today, as the top Google result whenever you have a question to ask). Its no mistake that the top users here don't ask many questions, its not that they don't have questions, they just do more searching before asking one. Commented Jan 22, 2016 at 1:49
  • 1
    @BradleyDotNET The interesting thing is that the more simple questions of SO that you often could search before asking are nevertheless high rated and often visited. It seems SO is not only a top quality, highly specialized Q&A but also a general purpose language tutorial/reference in Q&A and for that to work somebody has to ask (once) these rather easy beginner questions whose answers are so valuable to the peers all around the world. Surely a question of a top user, would there be one, would likely be less interesting to the general audience (but probably contain more exclusive insights). Commented Jan 22, 2016 at 9:01

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