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The situation

It’s a well-known fact that closed questions tend to stay closed. This makes sense: most questions are closed for a good reason.

But sometimes the asker puts in the work, edits the question, fixes the issues, and wants it reopened. And sometimes the question actually gets reopened!

But let’s be honest: (except for duplicates) reopening happens rarely, because the question flies under the radar. Yes, editing bumps it to the home page. But it has that big ugly mark next to it: “[closed]”. And thus most people will (with good reason) ignore it entirely (personally I almost never click on “[closed]” questions). And the question stays closed.

Furthermore, the reopen queue is completely ineffective in practice; in my experience, it hasn’t led to a single question being reopened (see below). Part of the reason may be that questions are only put into this queue once, even when they get edited repeatedly (and the first edit is often a minor cosmetic change by somebody other than the author, and wouldn’t warrant reopening).

I’ve started following questions that I personally voted to close, but where I see potential for the OP to improve it to justify reopening. And this does happen regularly, and I get notified, and I vote to reopen. And then … nothing. Not a single such questions has been reopened, despite all issues in the comments being addressed (I’m excluding duplicates here: questions incorrectly closed as duplicates get reopened fairly frequently).

The other close-voters don’t turn up. I don’t blame them, there’s thankfully no compulsion to subscribe to/follow questions you voted to close. But since nobody else bothers looking at the question, it doesn’t get the second chance it deserves, and this is immensely frustrating, and breaks the very explicit promise to newcomers that “your question was closed for reason X. Amend the question to get it reopened.”

The proposal

There needs to be some kind of mechanism to prevent this. Flagging for moderator attention is (IMHO) not the right mechanism, since it puts the onus on the moderators. I’d love a way to incentivise others to check out edited questions to appraise their reopen-worthiness. Neither bumping to the homepage nor the review queue currently do this.

Here’s what I’m proposing: Ideally, the people who closed the question should be reminded to take a look after the question was edited by the original author, whether they are following the question or not. I think this might be an unpopular proposal but I don’t believe it’s too much to ask of close-voters. At the very least this should be trialled to see whether it actually leads to a lot of notification spam.

(I currently @-mention the other close-voters in comments but this requires goodwill on the part of the other close-voters (and gives them disproportionate power), as well as serendipity: nobody is always online and sees the flag in a reasonable time frame.)


(There are related discussions about this topic but (a) they are ancient (the most recent one is more than 2.5 years old), (b) they precede other recent change such as the “follow” function; they thus happened in a completely different context, (c) they aren’t a , and (d) there’s no resolution, not even an attempt at one. This still needs fixing.)

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    And you can also go post a reopen-pls request in SOCVR, but make sure to read the FAQ.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 0:08
  • 14
    Do you have some hard statistics on what percentage of questions that go into the reopen queue age out (and therefore are not reopened) vs the ones that get acted upon (either reopened or voted to stay closed). Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 0:45
  • 4
    Maybe we should introduce reopen queue? Would be very quick implementation of the FR... I'm not really sure what this FR actually proposes so... Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 1:17
  • 31
    @10Rep No, the first edit by any user (that did not close the question), will push it into the queue, it doesn't matter if it's OP or not. Even half-assed edits from the suggested edit queue will push the question into the reopen queue if approved. Either way, it will only be pushed into the queue via editing a single time. Which is why I would like to see only OPs edits push their questions into the reopen queue, saves them from having crap edits take their one chance at reopening away from them. Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 3:09
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    It’s also incredibly disappointing to have all this comment discussion, yet the question is closed as an alleged “duplicate” of other, ancient discussions that it’s patently not a duplicate of. Related, yes. But not a duplicate. Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 9:54
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    A similar sentiment was my motivation for (re-)proposing the follow feature as well. Dispersing the close/reopen power among all users of the site makes little sense. It'd be a lot more helpful to keep the original close-voters in the loop instead of shunting that job off to entirely unrelated randos in the reopen queue.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 10:41
  • 4
    @deceze While I can understand the sentiment, I believe there are way too many more questions that are closed, get edited, and remain unfit for the site (or remain dupes) than the other way around. Getting automated notifications/following on every close-vote would be seriously noisy and not productive. The "follow" feature at least makes the process opt-in, which I think is as it should be.
    – yivi
    Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 10:51
  • 5
    @yivi Agreed. But the follow feature has proven quite positive, I feel. (Speaking entirely anecdotally, unfortunately.) I'm not saying that all close votes should lead to a mandatory follow, but it's absolutely worth it to rethink this workflow.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 10:53
  • 18
    I for one would be interested to try getting a notification after first reopen vote (from some other user) on a question where I am one of close voters
    – gnat
    Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 11:18
  • 6
    This is not my experience. I see plenty of closed questions get re-opened, even ones that should not be re-opened.
    – toolic
    Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 13:27
  • 4
    You just describe that you vote to reopen and the question remains closed. That can have two possible causes, either nobody reviewed it or the reviewers in the queue thought it should remain closed. What is the case in your examples? If it's the case that the other reviewers think that it should be closed, do you simply disagree with them? It's not clear to me what exactly the inadequacies of the reopen queue are in your opinion other that it doesn't reopen. Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 15:17
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    Short answer: no we don't. Long: see the percentage of edited after closure questions here. It makes no sense to waste all our energy as curators on all these when askers are not even willing to put a fraction of that into their own questions. The rising number of closed questions that are not reopened is merely a reflection of the fact that the number of users of the website has only increased over time. More users -> more bad content -> saturation -> higher bad/good content ratio. Commented Oct 29, 2020 at 16:32
  • 4
    Without additional restrictions, "[close voters get notifications ...] whether they are following the question or not." is simply a non-starter. I do not want or need ~46,000 notifications, thank you. The first change the company should make is to stop putting questions in the reopen queue when they're edited by someone other than OP. Then we can see how things start to look. Reopening on Stack Overflow is already 40% easier than yesteryear, ever since the threshold was changed to 3 votes. Considering many times askers reopen vote themselves, you often only need two votes to reopen a Q.
    – TylerH
    Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 13:28
  • 4
    @TylerH It’s incredibly unproductive to start a discussion based on a ridiculous hyperbole. Your number is completely baseless. If you max out your close votes per day you would get at most a handful of notifications — maybe one or two per day, maybe more (and this may well turn out to be too much, but there’s no need to make up ridiculous numbers). Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 14:25
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    @KonradRudolph Where's the hyperbole? That's the number of close votes I've actually cast. Per day, I could get 40, or even more if some questions are deleted allowing me to re-cast, notifications, not just "one or two" per day. If you want to be notified when a user edits an off-topic post in a pointless way, that's fine. But don't ask for everybody's time to be wasted along with yours.
    – TylerH
    Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 14:44

11 Answers 11

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I for one would be interested to try getting a notification after the first reopen vote (from some other user) on a question where I am one of the close voters.

I expect that this won't be very cumbersome because the requirement of having a prior reopen vote would keep "false alerts" rate tolerably low - even in the unlucky case that most/all of these votes turn out worthless (thinking of such an unlucky case, we better have some way to opt out of these notifications).

Having participated in closing I am indeed in a fairly good position to reconsider and evaluate changes in the question because of prior knowledge.

However, we need to account for a possible risk that previous votes may lead to negative bias and favoring a Leave Closed outcome. It looks hard to tell how much of a risk this is and because of that I would suggest not to implement this immediately, but first run it as an experiment and decide after checking its results.

Said experiment would also help to find out whether close voters would feel comfortable enough about getting these additional notifications (we don't want prior voters stamping everything Leave Closed just because they are angry).


For the sake of completeness - as was pointed in comments, it probably would be logical to complement requirement that users whose vote triggers notification would also be other than asker. Personally I can't tell how much important this is because vast majority of my own close votes seem to be on questions from users having less than 250 rep points who can't cast such votes anyway.

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    The close-voters are the best candidates to convince them join the other side, but this kind of notification could become annoying if question is still poor, especially if they have to spend time again to see it. So first reopen vote is a poor trigger. Trigger has to somehow guarantee what at least now it's worth to have a look.
    – Sinatr
    Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 13:24
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    I would not want to be included in this experiment by default. Users should opt-in before getting notifications.
    – toolic
    Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 13:29
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    @Sinatr there can't be a guaranteed good trigger, and even if there was one, it would better go not to close voters but to moderators for binding reopen. I proposed prior reopen vote only as a means to limit amount of notifications, expecting the experiment to find out whether this trigger is good enough or too unreliable
    – gnat
    Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 13:34
  • @toolic I considered proposing explicit opt-in but after some thinking hesitated to add it because some may complain that this will make significant potentially interested audience unaware of the experiment. I am still chewing it, trying to figure a way to push it through with less friction, maybe have a banner or maybe something like first time opt-in ("click yes if you want to keep getting these notifications" at first time it pops up) or maybe something else
    – gnat
    Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 13:48
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    @toolic One could argue that you’re opting in by close-voting. — I also fail to see the issue of making an experiment opt-out rather than opt-in. It would be a one-time effort, whereas opt-in, as gnat says, would fail to reach those people it’s intended to reach. Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 14:16
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    Worth mentioning that if there was some magic metric that guaranteed a closed question was worth having a look at, we wouldn't need humans to evaluate Q's for reopening. It is possible, however, that some metric exists to help scrape off some of the posts that definitely don't add enough quality for reopening, even something like "OP added minimum X characters to post body", iff that was found to correlate.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 15:11
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    @zcoop98 I've seen post closed that was edited into being fine prior to the last close vote being cast. So I do not think automatic character count or diffs is a good metric. I also do nothing to try to open them as I get the impression that users in the reopen queue are in fact presented with a diff. I assume when they see none, they're unlikely to vote to reopen.
    – Scratte
    Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 15:16
  • 2
    This should have the additional requirement that the reopen vote also can't be by OP. With those two requirements: 'reopen vote cast by someone other than myself or OP' and this might work.
    – TylerH
    Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 13:30
  • Perhaps after first reopen vote that is not by the author?
    – einpoklum
    Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 19:30
  • @TylerH I edited the answer to cover that
    – gnat
    Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 21:05
  • Some numbers on these two answers meta.stackoverflow.com/a/355396/792066 meta.stackoverflow.com/a/266844/792066. TL;dr: editing raises the possibility of being reopened the most. Of course popularity helps, but I say that's for the wrong reasons.
    – Braiam
    Commented Nov 3, 2020 at 17:51
30

In the end, the onus is on the asker for posting an on-topic question before clicking the "post question" button, not on the rest of the community salvaging it afterwards. Forcing additional notifications on close-voters seems to me an impractical reversal of responsibilities.

To help those that initially fail on producing a good, on-topic question, but are amenable to feedback and end up salvaging it, I believe a couple of things could be done:

"Follow" notifications changes

I would fine-tune the behaviour of the recently implemented "follow" feature, to account for the following things:

  • Notify when a question I'm following is closed (if I was interested on the question, I might be interested in it being closed, and might want to help with comments and reopen votes)

  • Notify when closed question I'm following receives a reopen vote.

I think these two changes to an already existing, opt-in feature would be enough to help things flow more smoothly and may do something for the small amount of questions that are closed and are later salvaged but slip through the cracks. And more importantly, they would affect only users who actively want to use the feature when they want to use the feature. (I wouldn't mind these notifications on the questions I decide to follow, I think they would be useful).

Reopen queue changes

Another part of the "solution", such as it is, would to send less stuff to the reopen queue. The reopen queue is particularly unattractive, since most questions that get sent there by reason of an edit are still unfit for purpose (they haven't become on-topic, or they remain dupes).

Not sending closed questions to the reopen queue until they got a relatively substantial first party edit (or they received a reopen vote) would alleviate matters a bit, as suggested elsewhere. The remaining questions in the queue would have a greater chance to be seen, and the queue in general should, hopefully, become marginally more interesting.

Nevertheless, I think that it wouldn't have a revolutionary effect, since in my experience even first-party edits of closed questions are not generally enough to make a closable question worth reopening; the ones that do cross that threshold are a very small minority.

This change in behaviour for the reopen queue would be nice, but it has been mentioned already and does not appear to have made much traction with Stack Overflow.


Between those two changes I think it could be possible to have non-trivial impact on the reopen ratio of questions that deserve reopening. It's worth repeating that these questions represent a very small minority of the closed questions, but I appreciate the efforts of trying to "rescue" those that can be rescued, as they could become useful members of the community, and learn more in the process.

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    you had me at "the onus is on the asker... " :)
    – toolic
    Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 13:50
  • 2
    @user1937198 Maybe. I think that's been mentioned elsewhere as well. I think that the effect that would have would be mostly accidental (by some users missing out in the hypothetical checkbox). I don't think that adding UI friction is way to go, but having smarter flows and triggers.
    – yivi
    Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 14:04
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    "the onus is on the asker... " - you are assuming that no questions are closed incorrectly Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 14:06
  • 2
    I'm thinking more on trying to make the fact that you get exactly one attempt to edit to trigger the reopen queue a bit more clear at the point of the edit might help. Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 14:07
  • 4
    @csgillespie No, I'm not assuming such thing at all. Rather, it's you the one making assumptions about my thought process. But I think that's not the problem this question tries to address, but that of the questions that are closed and later fixed. In any case, relaying on the close-voters for "questions closed incorrectly" seems rather inefficient, for that the second part of the answer, optimizing the way the reopen queue worked, would be a better fit.
    – yivi
    Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 14:08
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    There’s a lot of good stuff in this answer but I intensely dislike the first sentence. You (like many of us, occasionally me included!) seem to forget how hard it is to ask a good question. Let there be no doubt, it’s really hard. I know many very intelligent, highly educated people (we’re talking post-PhD level here) who have difficulty understanding what relevant context to include into a programming-related question, and which details are important vs. which ones aren’t. The questions we’re talking about here are by these people: well-intentioned, intelligent, diligent but inexperienced Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 14:22
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    @Konrad It's not about the posters being well-intentioned, intelligent, nice, diligent, polite friendly and frankly wonderful people all around that I like a lot and would love to help. It's about the questions. It's about the site. And I do remember how hard it is asking good questions, but those are the questions we want. I thought that the question was about reopening questions that weren't fit to begin with, but got salvaged. Nice! Totally on board with that! Now your comment seems to revolve about "we close too many questions", which I can't align myself with.
    – yivi
    Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 14:28
  • 5
    @yivi But you’re wrong, it is about the people asking questions. And, yes, how nice/polite/friendly they are is irrelevant, which is why I didn’t mention it. What matters is that asking good questions is a learned skill, and it’s on us to guide this process. Blocking people from learning the ropes is counter-productive and fundamentally misguided. Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 14:59
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    @yivi And my comment is explicitly about reopening questions, not about closing too many questions. And it is in that context that the first sentence of your answer is deeply problematic. Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 15:00
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    No @Konrad, you are wrong. The they are polite and nice and friendly is as irrelevant as all the rest. What matters are the posts. I'm all for reopening questions that became good, which was your original thrust. Now you are going all around about "blocking people from learning", which is unrelated. The vast majority of learning is performed by people reading existing posts, not by asking questions. Asking (good) questions just feeds more fuel into the machine so that future learners can benefit from.
    – yivi
    Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 15:05
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    I believe you either got sidetracked, or your original question does not reflect your motivation.
    – yivi
    Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 15:05
  • 5
    “The vast majority of learning is performed by people reading existing posts, not by asking questions.” — Passive learning is fundamentally limited. Almost nobody asks a good question the first time they try. This is simply a fact that we need to account for in our response to such questions (in general, but in particular in the context of facilitating reopening), and it is this fact which your opening sentence neglects. I’m not getting side-tracked, I’m focused on this one issue here. Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 15:09
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    I stand by my previous comment. This is going fundamentally nowhere. I believe my answer does address the fundamental issues of your posed question: alleviating the difficulty of reopening questions that deserve reopening. All the rest is just noise and unnecessary distraction. Please don't take it wrongly but I believe further discussion is sterile. Bye!
    – yivi
    Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 15:24
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    Another change that could be done to the reopen queue is that only when a question is edited by the OP it goes to the reopen queue. For the majority of questions, I don't believe that other person than the OP could turn a bad question into a good one. Also, it could be implemented a check box for edits to mark it as a minor edit, so it doesn't get bump into main page and to reopen queues.
    – Magnetron
    Commented Oct 29, 2020 at 16:57
  • 1
    If it's really so rare for edits to make questions worthy of reopening, why do we consistently keep recommending that as the workflow? Seems pointless to me. Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 18:35
27

This discussion kind of makes apparent that there is still an illusion that someone who posts an initially poorly received question has a chance of making it out of the muck.

Eons ago, I had proposed something similar since I saw what you're seeing - some questions may get dogpiled, but are still somewhat salvageable. But, five years later and I don't think anyone cares enough about this to do anything about it.

These days also, I'm a lot more cynical and jaded and I don't believe that it's worth the extra energy. The problem that we have is that there is more of a flood of bad users and bad questions that come onto the site that takes away what precious volunteer time we have to spare. We don't like rehashing the same old question that we saw and initially passed judgment on; it's inefficient. Even my suggestion is inefficient for that reason since more volunteer time is used on questions which may not deserve it.

No one wants to say that you only really get one good chance at making a good and lasting impression. We always look to the failsafes of review queues and editors acting in good faith to bail someone out of a jam.

The reality is that all of that is a lie, and there's a very real likelihood that one won't get out of the muck if they ask poor questions, or have their question closed.

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    I 100% agree with you regarding the large volume of bad questions. I do not suggest compromising on this. Unfortunately I also suspect you’re right with your two last paragraphs, but I’m simply not ready yet to concede the fight. Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 17:23
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    What doesn't seem part of the calculation is that bailing out users of jam seems like a possible way to get more future curators. The people who actually care about their own questions might also people who care about the site (if they weren't scared away). Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 17:26
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    @Trilarion Even if they aren't scared away by having their question closed, they'll be scared away by the review queues. It takes an extreme amount of mettle, and/or stubbornness, to be a Stack Overflow curator anno 2020.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 17:34
  • 1
    As the old saying goes, you only get one chance to make a good first impression. Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 18:37
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    "No one wants to say that you only really get one good chance at making a good and lasting impression." Citation required. I say this regularly. It is probably one of my most-posted aphorisms on Meta. I find it especially compelling because it's true. The reopen system really is a fail-safe: it only handles cases where the review process truly failed. It isn't good at recovery.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 31, 2020 at 0:06
  • @CodyGray: There's a silent, or omitted, or implied "that works here" that's missing from that declaration.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 31, 2020 at 0:31
  • @CodyGray To counter with another aphorism, you seem to be conflating “is” with “ought”. Giving people only a single chance to get it right is a terrible state of affairs, and that should be self-evident. If that’s the current state of affairs it’s our responsibility as influential senior users to actively counter-act it, and to push for technological change to make this easier. Commented Oct 31, 2020 at 14:19
24

This idea is cute at face value, but falls apart badly when you consider its Return On Investment.

I don't have a metric for the number of questions that get reopened after they are closed but I'm willing to put money on that ratio being exceedingly poor. (It would help your cause a lot if you could provide those numbers, BTW.) I generally use the entirety of my close votes every day, and of all of them, maybe (maybe) one is on a question that I think "might be answerable if edited" to myself as I cast my vote.

So anecdotally, 1 out of 50 questions, or 2%, would potentially be affected by this feature. Single-digit percentages are not what you target when you are looking to implement a new feature; you go for the best bang-for-buck. There are far more feature requests that will positively impact the userbase of this site in a far larger way than this suggestion, so its chances of ever being even considered for implementation are low.

Then you add on the fact that getting Stack Exchange to implement any feature, no matter how minor or valuable, is a Sisyphean task, and yeah... this one is DOA.


I will also echo part of yivi's excellent answer, regarding responsibility: to put it bluntly, if you don't want to have your question closed, make it answerable from the start. Because quite honestly, it isn't difficult to write a good question. Even with the lack of a centralised and simple FAQ on how to do so (something we can also thank SE Inc. for failing to implement), it really just boils down to these two pieces of guidance on the Ask page:

Be specific and imagine you’re asking a question to another person
Include all the information someone would need to answer your question

99% of questions that get closed (or should be) fail one or both of those simple, fundamental requirements. That means the asker not only did not think about how to frame their problem to help it to be solvable, they did not even bother reading the Ask page. Their responsibility, which they abrogated.

At the end of the day, you don't go to an interview in your pajamas, get kicked out, then expect a do-over once you put on a suit. In the same way, you shouldn't post a bad question to Stack Overflow that gets closed, then edit it to be a (maybe) good question and hope it gets reopened and answered.

Don't waste everyone's time by doing the wrong thing first, then doing the correct thing: do the correct thing to start with!

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    “quite honestly, it isn't difficult to write a good question” — You‘re incredibly wrong here, and it’s frustrating to see this attitude in a high rep user. It appears, to put it bluntly, wilfully ignorant. It also means that we can’t debate this issue productively, because we’re starting off from incompatible positions. Luckily I believe the powers that be realise this, and won’t be swayed by your claim. So I’ll do my best to just ignore you. Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 17:18
  • 6
    There might be a catch 22 here. Maybe the feature is broken (at least that's what Konrad is saying). In that case, a low number of reopened questions would mean that it needs to be fixed urgently instead of concluding that it's not really important to change anything. And while I tend to agree with you, making mistakes is human. The way reopening works I guess the best thing would be to take a closed question, delete it, and start anew. Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 17:19
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    I think we can all agree that a lot of crap questions get posted, which get rightfully closed, and which will never be re-open worthy; that's clearly not in question here. I do nonetheless sympathize with the frustration that comes with not being able to reopen questions that should be reopened, which at the very least, seems more difficult than it was ever intended to be, based on the design of the tools that allow it.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 17:23
  • 10
    @KonradRudolph If you wish to make the claim that writing a good question is difficult, you need to provide evidence for it. (Please don't ask me to prove my claim to the contrary, because that would be asking to prove a negative.) Getting huffy and threatening to ignore me is an emotional response that benefits nobody. If you're truly interested in having your proposal evaluated, not just blindly accepted because you believe it's "right" from your moral viewpoint, then you need to leave your ego at the door.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 17:31
  • 6
    @KonradRudolph Let me be clear: I agree with the intent of this proposal, as I do with the intent of pretty much every proposal that makes it to Meta.SO, because the people who are willing to post proposals here are almost always the kind of thoughtful, well-intentioned people who should really be in charge of running Stack Overflow. But... we aren't, and probably never will be, and that hurts. Hurts in a way that makes us jaded. Makes us seem dismissive of good ideas. Makes us seem hostile to new users. But we aren't bad people; we're just working in a bad system we can't fix.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 17:42
  • I feel that @IanKemp. I really do.
    – Travis J
    Commented Oct 29, 2020 at 18:43
  • Shog used to put out statistics, something like 4% of edited posts get reopened.
    – Travis J
    Commented Oct 29, 2020 at 18:44
19

The vast majority of closed questions should not be reopened, even if they've been edited.

  1. OPs who post close-worthy questions are unlikely to have the skills or motivation to improve their question to the point where it can be reopened.

  2. The question has already attracted close votes and sometimes delete votes. All that damage is hard to undo, and requires several participants to undertake. In most cases, if the OP can figure out how to ask a good question, it's better just to start over.

  3. Nowadays I'm inclined to cast close votes only on those questions where I see that the situation is almost certainly not going to improve. I've drastically curtailed my moderation activity, for the same reasons that Makoto articulates.

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    That's all okay but I wonder with only 3 close votes as threshold (and a question in the close vote review queue typically gets them) shouldn't there be lots of wrongly closed questions. It could be true at the same time that we close not enough questions and too many. Where would you say that the level of wrongly closed questions becomes a concern? Commented Oct 28, 2020 at 20:06
  • I would say wrongly closed questions becomes a concern when we're closing more questions per day than we're receiving. Otherwise... the damage is minimal. The question will be re-asked by someone eventually if it was one worth asking.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 29, 2020 at 14:25
  • 3
    @KevinB I don't think that a fine Question is closed isn't a concern is true. The user that tried in good faith an failed may never ask again, especially if their Question was fine. They can't fix it, because it's not possible to make a fine Question fine. Someone else may ask it, but not as well, or it may be asked many times very poorly by users that know the game and just don't care. The bigger the flood, the more important it is to deal with the really poor Questions, because no one has time to fix the mistakes. Some users would make good curators, if they weren't dissuaded by injustice.
    – Scratte
    Commented Oct 29, 2020 at 15:19
  • If the question truly was fine, asked well as it could be, and still closed, clearly it wasn't as truly fine as one thought.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 29, 2020 at 15:20
  • @Scratte: "Dissuaded by justice?" Apparently you weren't here six months ago. Commented Oct 29, 2020 at 15:20
  • 1
    @KevinB That is a false assumption. Some of those posts are brought out on meta, and the issue is fixed for that one post. The problem is as always only a small amount is brought out on meta.
    – Scratte
    Commented Oct 29, 2020 at 15:22
  • 2
    @Scratte Yes, because meta has absolutely no history whatsoever of proping up garbage questions
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 29, 2020 at 15:22
  • 2
    @RobertHarvey I was here, that's another "injustice". I am still here. I see posts closed that are fine. Not just to me, but to one or two other users mentioning it in comments expressing casting reopen votes. And then.. nothing. But what can I do about it? Other than not curate at all, hoping that the active close voters will focus on the crap instead?
    – Scratte
    Commented Oct 29, 2020 at 15:25
  • 1
    @KevinB You can argue the same about all open Question. If it really is bad, then it would have closed already. Yet, some really bad ones don't get closed.
    – Scratte
    Commented Oct 29, 2020 at 15:28
  • 2
    @Scratte You keep bringing up this crusade of yours on comments wherever you feel it's relevant even if it's really not, but on the rare occasion where you proffer an actual specific example, I feel it's actually not up to scratch.
    – yivi
    Commented Oct 29, 2020 at 15:29
  • Point 1 is just false and a bad bias to have. Point 2 is indeed a problem, but we shouldn't just resign ourselves to closing being final. Instead, we should do something about it... Point 3 is a poor choice IMHO; but - do you mean you downvote, or just comment on the question?
    – einpoklum
    Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 19:33
  • 1
    Point 1 is verifiable through data. It would surprise me if more than 1 out of 10 questions got reopened through editing improvements. Point 3 follows from point 1. Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 19:34
9

Overall, as per close stats for the last 30 days, 23.68% of questions asked get closed.

Most common reasons for closing:

  • Needs details or clarity: 28.1%
  • Duplicate: 22.4%
  • Needs more focus: 15.8%
  • Needs debugging details: 12.6%

Of which,

  • 6-20% of closed questions get edited
  • 0-2% of closed questions get reopened
  • 0-4% of closed questions which are edited get reopened

Overall, of all the close reasons, "Duplicate" questions get reopened relatively easy (2.3%). Of questions which are edited after being closed, "Needs debugging details questions" get reopened relatively easy (4.03%).


We're dealing with two types of questions, that need to be reopened, in the reopen queue:

  • Type I: Questions which never should have been closed: Wrongly closed questions: turbo/robo reviewers, looks based reviewers (no code = close + downvote).
  • Type II: Questions which are salvaged by editing either by OP or others.

Most answers here simply deal with Type II questions, while Type I is completely ignored. We might lose future volunteers due to Type I.


It was mentioned that Return on Investment is low to consider this feature. This new feature only affects 2% of questions. This is not true. Around 23% of questions asked are closed. Of these closed questions, in 6-20% of cases, either the OP or someone else cared enough to make an edit to put the question in the reopen queue. Not only that, some bad reputation of Stack Overflow due to downvotes/closed questions could be retracted, if we have a good reopen queue.

The most important positive outcome of fixing the reopen queue is this:

  • Close votes: Volunteers here care about the asker. They are not willing to vote to close, if they knew that their vote is irrevocable, even if OP does everything correct. Users on Meta lament the poor questions and number of questions that are low quality that are not closed. But without a robust reopen queue, borderline voters are not willing to cast a close vote, if they think the question is salvageable. This creates a pool of low quality questions, which are neither here nor there and is always in a limbo (never closed, never salvaged, but not clearly answerable either or attracts a poor answer). To remedy the situation and increase close vote percentage, a robust reopen queue is absolutely essential.

Some other feature requests to consider:

  • Trivial Edits: These type of edits: Tag edits, removing "Thank you"s and "Hi"s, code syntax highlights put the question in the reopen queue and unnecessarily flood the queue.

    • Automatically exclude these edits.
    • Inform the OP/editor and/or ask their explicit permission to confirm whether they want this question to be put on the reopen queue after this edit.
  • Better review audits: Since very low number of questions are eligible to be reopened, it is essential for the reviewer to have very high level of attention and not simply click "Leave closed". Custom audits specially designed for this purpose and/or increased number of review audits will help. A quota for the reopen queue will also help if this decreases reopen queue reviewers.

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  • 2
    Thanks for this summary. It’s unfortunate that the statistics don’t tell us the extent of the editing — it’s entirely possible that the majority of the edits are minor or bad, and thus the questions really don’t warrant reopening (obviously I don’t believe this!). Even so, the reopen numbers are shockingly even lower than I thought. Commented Oct 29, 2020 at 19:02
  • 3
    Thanks for calling out the difference between the two types. The first type seems like it should get a smoother pass to reopening. A specific instance I have in mind are duplicate questions: a quick read making reviewers think it's a duplicate question, but a closer read shows that they're not really duplicates at all. I've also had a question sit in limbo of the second type, where it was deemed too broad. I narrowed the focus with an edit, but was unable to get it reopened despite that. I wonder if there's therefore certain types of close reasons that should be more visible.
    – M. Justin
    Commented Oct 29, 2020 at 19:17
  • 2
    @KonradRudolph I think you can find the extent of edits using a SEDE query, but it still won't let you know the quality of those edits, which is much more important.
    – TheMaster
    Commented Oct 29, 2020 at 21:40
  • 1
    @M.Justin Duplicates already have a smoother pass, since they only require a single reopen vote from a gold tag badge user. In practice, this kind of reopening happens frequently (again, don’t have numbers but this is my experience and I’m sure SEDE would corroborate this). This is good, but it’s not sufficient. Commented Oct 29, 2020 at 22:13
  • @KonradRudolph Although I agree Duplicate questions are reopened frequently. The opposite is also true, they only require 1 close vote from gold badge. This is especially important in tags where there aren't many gold badge holders. I agree with Justin on the fact that Some questions are closed as duplicates based on a cursory read of the question, which may not be true on a closer look.
    – TheMaster
    Commented Oct 29, 2020 at 23:40
  • 1
    The reopen stats are "the wrong stats": There should be some careful examination of some sample closed questions, by people congizant of this question - as an experiment, to determine what fraction of closed questions "should", given enough attention, be reopened. Then we should devide the actual fraction of reopened questions by this fraction.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 19:29
  • "23.68% of questions asked get closed" That's an odd statement to say, so I went around checking what the screen says, and figured out what happened: questions closed on that percentage, has no relationship with questions asked other than both happened in the last 30 days. If a question asked in 2014 was closed in the last 30 days, it would be counted here. That 23% looks very impressive, but that's probably only because we are trying to clean the cruft of the non-compliant questions that weren't timely closed. BTW, if 90% of everything is crap, we need to pick up the slack.
    – Braiam
    Commented Nov 3, 2020 at 18:03
  • @KonradRudolph I've accidentally reopened questions that I didn't intend to, thinking others would need to agree with me first. I can't even keep track of all the tags I have gold badges on now. Commented Nov 3, 2020 at 18:24
  • @Braiam I'm sure you'd agree that such closed "old" questions account for a minor part in that 23%- I would say, based on experience that they're almost negligible. Most of that closed questions are those that are asked in the last 30days.
    – TheMaster
    Commented Nov 4, 2020 at 4:49
  • 3
    One additional reason why so many questions are not edited after they are closed is because the closing process is so hostile. The close-votes are often accompanied by downvotes. When you're a new user and you post a question and immediately receive 3 downvotes and 3 closevotes, you're not encouraged to edit your question, you're encouraged to delete your question in shame. The feeling is similar to entering a room and asking a question, and the six people in the room jump at you and all simultaneously yell at you that everything you're asking is stupid.
    – Stef
    Commented Feb 27, 2023 at 10:24
  • 1
    @Stef I agree. Meta seems to hold inconsistent opinions on this: On one hand, they say Votes are only for judging "content" and not the "user", i.e., they're not "personal". I made a proposal then, to hide the votes from the "user", but then they turn around and say votes are essential for the user to change the "content". They maintain this hypocrisy to avoid any challenge to the status quo.
    – TheMaster
    Commented Feb 27, 2023 at 10:41
  • 2
    I fail to see how that's hypocrisy; are you saying that users who downvote should be taking the time to transcribe the code from an image? Do the research for the user? Show the user's attempts they failed to demonstrate? Why would the rest of the user base do that, @TheMaster . The author of the post is the only user who can improve a low quality post that is lacking detail and missing information. Any other user that did that would be hallucinating. The vote is for the content and if the user decides to improve their post because it received downvotes maybe those votes will be changed.
    – Thom A
    Commented Jun 23, 2023 at 17:27
  • @ThomA When you say it is for the content, you also say it is for future readers. The meta answer that stated this entire rule says this clearly: Downvotes are, first and foremost, a content rating system. Rather than being a way of communicating with the poster, they are a way of communicating to future readers that a question or answer is not interesting or useful. If someone wants to leave a comment to communicate with the poster, they can always do so, independent of the voting system. [1/2]
    – TheMaster
    Commented Jun 24, 2023 at 5:29
  • It clearly says it is communicating to future readers and adds that comments are for the poster. It also says votes are not exactly a way of "communicating with the poster". Do you at least see the inconsistency in claiming it's both for the op on one hand and not for the op, on the other hand? [2/2]
    – TheMaster
    Commented Jun 24, 2023 at 5:38
  • So that future readers know the content is useful/helpful, @TheMaster . You added emphasis on the wrong place. That future reader may then also vote on that content. The cycle continues.
    – Thom A
    Commented Jun 24, 2023 at 7:16
8

Considering how many questions I've closed, I don't think I'd appreciate a notification every time they get edited (even if they are only when edited by the OP). Personally speaking, I can barely handle the notifications for following highly active questions. It'd be a nightmare if I got those types of notifications automatically.

That certainly isn't to say the Re-Open queue doesn't need help. It is getting backed up at the moment. It's just I don't think automatic notifications are the answer.


I propose an alternative. Why not model what happened to the Close Vote Queue back in the day and start an organized effort to help make the queue more effective?

Obviously, SOCVR has since broadened its scope to moderation in general and not just closing. It could help tackle this problem (and might even be willing to help), but I personally don't think we as the community should try to put that responsibility on them and coax them to help. If we decide to go this route, it should ideally be a parallel effort in its own separate space.

To be clear: I am not suggesting creating an effort to re-open all the questions SOCVR closes. Instead, I'm suggesting we form an effort to find and re-open questions that actually deserve to get opened back up.

It is just a thought.

8
  • 1
    I'm not sure a 'dedicated' chatroom for reopen votes would really work (at least, not in the way that SOCVR impacted the size of the CV queue). Reopening is a fundamentally different beast than closing. Yes, the RO queue is rapidly gaining weight (something to do with ♦ Sam?) but, other than the changes 'in the pipeline' (non-OP edits not pushing closed Qs into that queue), I'm not sure how to coordinate folks' efforts into reducing that growth. Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 20:35
  • 1
    I generally do 40 RO reviews per day, as do many others. Many (if not most) I see are nowhere near worthy of reopening. I suppose what I (and others) could start doing is to post [reopen-pls] requests into SOCVR when one does pop up. Or just post the link to the review, to keep things 'clean'? Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 20:38
  • 1
    So SORVR? Let's give it a try!
    – TheMaster
    Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 20:41
  • @TheMaster Well, if either you or Chipster get that going, I'd be happy to help out, if I can. But, as I said, I'm not sure what mechanism(s) to implement to actually pick up on the most reopen-worthy questions. Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 20:43
  • @AdrianMole That's not a bad idea; Obviously the request would have be subject to SOCVR's, though.
    – user10957435
    Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 20:44
  • The ROs there may be able to add some kind of interface directly in the RO queue (may even be there - haven't noticed) to pump a [review-pls] request from the queue (like ♦Makyen's script does in the Suggested Edits queue). Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 20:46
  • @AdrianMole Thanks for the support. Obviously the same rules as SOCVR to begin with should work. A rationale provided by the reopen requester: if others agree, it'll be reopened, else left closed.
    – TheMaster
    Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 20:48
  • Btw, @TheMaster I'm certainly down for that, but I'd definitely like to wait and make sure it has sufficient community support before I try something like that. That being said, if you decide to go ahead and create such a room before I do, please let me know.
    – user10957435
    Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 21:11
7

I think two changes could greatly improve this situation:

  • A question only goes to the re-open queue if it has a re-open vote on it.
  • An asker can cast a re-open vote on their own questions at a very low rep (like 10 or so).

This way minor edits that don't intend to cause a re-open don't go to the queue. And the asker can indicate when they are ready for the question to go to the re-open queue. (Or a higher rep user can do an edit and cast a re-open vote.)

This would probably need some minor UI changes to make it easier for low rep users to find the reopen option after they have made their changes.

4
  • 7
    I think the reason why posts go into the reopen queue from an edit is that a lot of users do not know about the inner workings of votes, and what does what, and goes to which queues. I've encountered high reputation users making cosmetic edits to closed posts. They were unaware of the resulting push to the queue. I do not think one can expect a 1 reputation point or 10 reputation point user to know about the mechanics of the site.
    – Scratte
    Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 23:20
  • 2
    Maybe it's time to learn them said inner workings @Scratte. The answer to people not knowing how the site works needs to stop being an excuse to repeatedly lowering our standards.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Nov 2, 2020 at 19:43
  • 4
    @KevinB Then information about those inner workings need to be easily accessible. Only Fanatics (like me) spend months on meta to find out about everything. I wouldn't recommend it to someone else though.
    – Scratte
    Commented Nov 2, 2020 at 20:02
  • 1
    It needs to be made clear whether the user can cast their reopen vote multiple times or not, and that they should only reopen if they've changed something. I imagine a lot of users, having had their question closed and seeing a freely available "reopen" link, will click it immediately without changing a thing, and continue to click it until the question is reopened or deleted. Commented Nov 20, 2020 at 16:29
3

Personally I feel that I VTC fairly often (maybe because of certain tags I subscribe to?) and always try to remember to also follow those questions, for the same reasons stated in the question here. Sometimes not, if it's in dire shape.

For me at least, I'd love an opt-out auto-follow feature. Either opt-out on the individual question (which pretty much already exists - you'd just unselect 'follow') or on a sitewide basis.

Since I already try to follow, and I find very few notifications result from this, I don't anticipate a "flood" of pointless notifications.

7
  • 2
    I also follow questions I VTCd unilaterally. But auto-follow would help a lot
    – TheMaster
    Commented Oct 29, 2020 at 21:54
  • 2
    UI/UX principles dictate features should be opt-in, not opt-out. Especially features that send you notifications. Or do you think people enjoy spammy/unsolicited emails, newsletters, and notifications? Voting does not constitute interest or involvement to a the degree necessary to merit automatic notifications.
    – TylerH
    Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 13:36
  • 2
    @TylerH I was specifically talking about voting to close, not upvote/downvotes. I think the choice of opt in/out depends on what the intended expectation is when the person engages in a VTC. It is my personal preference that I am generally interested to continue engaging in the question. If SO preferred that close voters were to stay engaged, opt-out would be sensible. If not, opt-in would be. I don't think that general UI principles overrule that intention. Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 13:39
  • 1
    @UuDdLrLrSs So was I. "Voting" encompasses all forms of voting, including close and reopen voting.
    – TylerH
    Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 13:43
  • @TylerH where was the term "voting" used that you are referring to? In any case I was not suggesting opt-out for anything but VTC. Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 13:44
  • 1
    @UuDdLrLrSs Your post says you want an opt-out auto-follow feature after talking about your efforts to follow questions you vote to close. Voting to close is something I do quite often and also is quite often done on posts where no amount of editing would salvage them/make me interested in re-visiting (e.g. recommendation questions, topics far too broad for SO, things not remotely about programming). Especially for people who are active in the queue vs people who only close vote organically, this would be way, way, way more noise than signal.
    – TylerH
    Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 13:57
  • @TylerH thanks, I understand what you meant now. Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 14:00
-4

I think I have seen statistics which are ballpark 4% of closed questions with edits get re-opened.

In order to address this from a community angle, it could be possible to identify which close reason (if any) are primarily the cause of closed questions which could have remained open and then have a moderator modify that close reason to be a little more vague in order to prevent the question from being closed if it is close enough to salvageable that you could envision an edit saving it.

However, that is assuming that questions which are salvageable actually have an associated asker attentive enough to fix them. I think that making sure the asker is more attentive through some sort of grace period of closing would be a good approach here, and would also keep the onus on the asker as opposed to the community.

I propose a similar time window to that of the accept answer time window (10 minutes) whereby no close votes can be cast (unless the question reaches -5 votes).

You may be thinking, "What? Why?! What does that accomplish? Now I can't close vote clearly garbage questions and in addition users will just downvote faster in order to be able to vote to close." which is a fine instant reaction. The thing is, a 10 minute window allows the OP to have a sense of urgency to edit when they first post. Clearly just suggesting that they be attentive is not enough, there must be some sort of associated measurable metric. I think this accomplishes that, and should encourage edits. It would be easy to A/B test, where edits in the first 10 minutes would be the measurement to make, and there could be a timer shown somewhere in the UI to indicate that the grace period was ending in x minutes and y seconds. This also encourages downvotes! So, to everyone always clamoring that there isn't enough downvoting on questions: you're welcome. Historically we have discussed the use of close votes for certain types of questions, and their failures; many times in those conversations the use of downvotes had emerged, so this really does pair hand in hand with that. Using a 5 downvote threshold for close votes comes from those discussions. While this may seem like a lot of stick, there is an equal amount of carrot. In addition to the theoretical situation posed here, from the technical end, the hook already exists for accepting an answer, so that would be easy to piggy back into.

5
  • That seems sort of counter to the proposal to get Questions reopened. What is the point of having one or two highly downvoted open posts, even if one learns to post Questions, if the result is a Question ban? Wouldn't it effective make the users that have learned it explicitly barred from using their new skills?
    – Scratte
    Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 8:27
  • @Scratte - This is a situation best approached prior to the closing, rather than after. Also, downvotes can be reversed. For posts which can be edited to be good questions, most users who downvote will reverse that vote, and will feel inclined to stay if there are edits being made. If a post is being edited, it is less common for it to receive downvotes or close votes. Once a post is abandoned, then it really doesn't stand a chance to be reopened, as the asker has either given up, or the question itself was not in a place to be remedied.
    – Travis J
    Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 19:24
  • That is the sort of hidden statistic here, that most questions closed stand no chance at being reopened; moreover, that many askers simply abandon posts once asked. These are two important facets that this approach would address with regards to reopening, because, let's be honest: the issue isn't reopening, it's editing.
    – Travis J
    Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 19:24
  • A close-worthy question should not, IMHO, be downvoted - just closed.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 19:31
  • Depends on the question; is it well researched, does it present as an actual question, is it related to programming in the proper aspects, etc.. Many close worthy questions merit downvoting, and many questions not qualifying for a close reason merit downvoting as well. It is certainly true that qualifying for closure is not an immediate reason to downvote.
    – Travis J
    Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 20:17
-5

Re-opening alone isn't good enough.

Questions have a brief window to show in the Top Questions view. My impression with the re-opened questions I've been able to encounter is the recovered question already seems stale. They still don't get attention in the same way as a regular new question, and will still tend to go unanswered.

I will say that I really like the proposal. I just think we need to do that and something else.

Most of all, I like that this proposal is likely to act as a modest deterrent to close votes, because any close vote is now likely to also come with a later nag notification to review. And I think that's a good thing:

Two simple @StackOverflow tips when looking at questions from new users:

  1. If you're about to cast a down-vote, a close vote is almost always the better choice.
  2. If you're about to vote to close, at least half the time an edit is the better choice

https://twitter.com/jcoehoorn/status/1166576471843975169

5
  • 4
    Your advice confuses the role that each vote plays. A downvote is meant to judge the question quality. A close vote judges the question's topicality. An off-topic question could also be poor, but a poor question is not necessarily off-topic.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 29, 2020 at 20:52
  • 4
    @Makoto I think Joel isn’t confusing them, he’s saying that many voters confuse them. And it’s not always that clean cut. “Needs focus” and “Needs details” can both be on focus and just low quality, and both are good candidates for reopening after the question has been cleaned up in some cases. Commented Oct 29, 2020 at 22:16
  • 3
    @KonradRudolph: I'm sure that the quoted tweet there definitely confuses those things. Downvoting and close voting are not mutually exclusive and send different messages in different ways. Close voting implies the question is not on topic in some way, be that focus, broadness, duplicate, or whatever. Downvoting implies that the question is poor in some way. The advice that a close vote should be used when the question is still on-topic but not that great is horrible advice, and the idea that editing a post that needs to be closed instead is also horrible.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 29, 2020 at 22:41
  • 1
    @Makoto I don’t disagree with your characterisation of voting. I still think you are misunderstanding the tweet, because it doesn’t disagree either. Commented Oct 29, 2020 at 23:25
  • 2
    No, I think I do understand those roles.. I think most others do, too. But those features were built to include wide berths for discretion. Over the years that discretion has tilted far too much towards closing+downvoting weak questions, especially for new users, when edits or comments might be more fruitful -- often to the detriment of the site as a whole. I also believe very strongly in question quality standards, but I think the way to get there is teaching those who come here to do better, not shutting them out or driving them off. Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 15:14

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