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This post stems from my concern about these topics:

  1. The communities that are at the intersection of many fields, and are not at home on any Stack Exchange website.
  2. The arbitrary closing/migration by people who have no relevant expertise.
  3. How this drives away researchers from many fields.

I will discuss each point separately in what follows.

  1. The first point is essentially a reminder that not all communities have their own Stack Exchange. This is the case of the computer vision, SLAM and image processing communities. These fields are at the intersection of many domains (math, physics, machine learning, computer science, statistics) and as a result, there is often no correct choice of a Stack Exchange site. While sometimes, robotics.stackexchange or similar sites seem to be the appropriate choice, the truth is that these communities are a lot less active, and in case you need an immediate response, Stack Overflow remains the best bet. I think this is why (and not the ignorance of newcomers) that have contributed to a very tiny ecosystem, where a cluster of users discuss not only code, but also more theoretical subjects that would be borderline in any Stack Exchange site. An example is this question, or this one that I really enjoyed thinking about/answering. These questions, which are the ones I appreciate most, wont really fit if we interpret the "what to ask rules" rigidly. You will see many of these if you look at the vision/machine learning/optimization/Kalman/GPS/SLAM/etc. tags. The people asking those questions are often not developers/engineers, but are also not idiots. They have chosen Stack Overflow knowingly, because there was no better community.

  2. Now, most of these posts are safe as long as they do not use popular tags (otherwise, they quickly get closed as off-topic), or if they are rapidly answered. Otherwise, case in point. Before this question was migrated, I had answered it, three people had upvoted it, other people had left comments, and a 32k+ user (a machine learning research scientist from DeepMind) had edited my answer. But, five people, some of them with absolutely no relevant tags, decided that it was more fit for the cross-validated network... I think that anyone who has ever optimized a cost function would find this extremely bizarre. The question is about a specific MATLAB function which is a Nonlinear programming solver... Additionally, I'd like to point out that some questions (e.g on basic backprop in deep learning) are so basic at this point that there is really no point in migrating/closing them.

    As a second example, one of my old questions about torch7/C++ integration was closed as off-topic. I don't mind it, since I had found the solution myself. But, as you'll notice, most of the users who voted to close don't have any torch or even LUA tags. From the reasons they give, it seems that none of them really understands the question, although there were appropriate and helpful answers.

    I think that 3000 reputation points should not be enough to vote to close or migrate. In fact, no amount in itself should give such moderation rights. There should also be a condition or constraint on the clusters the user belongs to. If a user only answers PHP questions, then they have no right to label a question being discussed by machine learning researchers as off-topic.

  3. This brings me to my last point. Almost all research nowadays makes use of software/programming tools, but most researchers in those domains have very domain specific knowledge, and their understanding of, for example, compilation and multi-threading is extremely basic. It is natural that their questions seem poorly worded, too broad, off-topic to seasoned software engineers. This is the case of many of my colleagues, who are brilliant researchers, but don't go near Stack Overflow because of the warm welcome they once received, with ~5 downvotes in 2 minutes instead of guidance. I think the community could be more flexible.

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    I'm sure that if these people are expert researchers in a field, they're capable of following simple instructions given on how to ask an appropriate question, and being academics, should already have a strong foundation of what's important in general when asking a question of a peer in a professional setting. That they don't have extensive programming experience doesn't inhibit them from asking a good question, nor does it excuse asking a bad one.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 27, 2017 at 20:36
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    Advocating asking a question in what you know is the wrong site just because there are more people there makes as much sense as searching for your lost keys under the street light.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 27, 2017 at 20:37
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    Requiring that someone have expertise in the subject of a question in order to close that question as off topic makes zero sense. I don't need to be a plumber to know that a plumbing question is off topic on SO.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 27, 2017 at 20:41
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    hence why it's requires 5 such judgements for any action to take effect, outside of dupe hammer of course.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jul 27, 2017 at 20:42
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    No, that's not what you said. You said that people are posting questions on SO, that are off topic, and not out of ignorance, but simply because there's more people here, and are advocating that we accommodate that behavior.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 27, 2017 at 20:43
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    You do seem to be advocating that we don't close or downvote "questions [that] seem poorly worded, too broad, off-topic to seasoned software engineers". Good researchers should be able to research what makes a question well-received.
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented Jul 27, 2017 at 20:43
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    @Ash Then don't tell us that we should accommodate questions that you know are off topic, if what you're actually saying is that people are indicating that questions are off topic when they are actually on topic. You spent a whole paragraph explaining why it's a good thing that people are posting off topic content, and how SO users are bad for correctly marking it as off topic.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 27, 2017 at 20:45
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    @Ash The foundation of what makes a good question is largely not domain specific. Such a researcher should know what makes a good question in any field. That said, Jon's point was, "Good researchers should be able to research what makes a question well-received." (emphasis not added). If they don't already know how to ask a good programming question, they should research how to do so.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 27, 2017 at 20:49
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    @Ash: They may not have the background already, but they're presented with a guide before they start, and there are several articles on how to write good SO questions (mine is at codeblog.jonskeet.uk/2010/08/29/writing-the-perfect-question) - you say they "don't go near Stack Overflow" because of its reputation, effectively - suggesting they understand that they would need to do research in order to ask a well-received question. If they're good researchers, they should be able to do that research.
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented Jul 27, 2017 at 20:49
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    @Ash: Your question is invalid, as there is no evidence of this crushing of sub-communities you allege. There is simply closing questions most of which don't belong. Commented Jul 27, 2017 at 20:59
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    "For a new user, this can be a very painful experience" - it doesn't have to be, if they read the how-to-ask guide and follow the links. Closing off-topic questions and down-voting poorly-written questions is a crucial part of maintaining the quality of the site. I also disagree with your "there are more people on SO, therefore to hell with whether or not a question would actually be more on topic on a different site" logic.
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented Jul 27, 2017 at 21:00
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    @Ash So you agree that we should have quality standards, that it's important for questions to follow them, and that they shouldn't break the rules, but feel that whenever someone does post a bad question and doesn't follow the rules we should just refuse to enforce the rules and not actually do anything about it because informing them that they asked a bad question would hurt their feelings? It doesn't work that way; you can't support the existence of a ruleset and be against the very idea of enforcing it, and if they don't know that they asked a bad question they can't fix it.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 27, 2017 at 21:01
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    @NicolBolas: Look, I am a member of one of those communities, and this is the way I feel. I provided two links to show my point. It is not that hard to find any others. You are actually proving my point: I'm from the small community, I make a polite statement on meta, and what happens, you guys who are not from the same community downvote me to the depth of hell while well, being a bit condescending.
    – Ash
    Commented Jul 27, 2017 at 21:04
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    @Ash: "Look, I am a member of one of those communities, and this is the way I feel." I recognize that you feel that way, but that doesn't mean that's what is happening. Also, you should be aware that, pretty much every day, someone comes around and says, "we should make it harder to close questions". While most of us regulars are doing everything we can to improve question quality across the site by closing the flood of crap questions we get daily. Such MSO questions usually are greeted with broad disagreement, just as yours has been. Commented Jul 27, 2017 at 21:06
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    @Ash We aren't downvoting you. We're downvoting your suggestion because we disagree with it. If you take downvotes as personal, you will never be happy on this site. We are not being condescending, we are explaining what we see wrong with your suggestion. Until you present solid, objective evidence, and enough of it that it cannot be argued with, people will likely continue to disagree with your suggestion. We aren't seeing what you say you are, and you aren't giving us enough to see it. If you want a huge change to SO, you need a huge amount of data to prove your point.
    – Kendra
    Commented Jul 27, 2017 at 21:13

2 Answers 2

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You mention in the comments that you do want quality standards, and you agree they're needed. Great! We're on the same page there.

Now, let's take a look one of your points:

I think that 3000 reputation points should not be enough to vote to close or migrate. In fact, no amount in itself should give such moderation rights. There should also be a condition or constraint on the clusters the user belongs to. If a user only answers PHP questions, then they have no right to label a question being discussed by machine learning researchers as off-topic.

You have a fair reason to feel this way. Indeed, reputation on the site is no guarantee someone is an expert in everything on the site. Reputation is not a guarantee of expertise in any way, just of familiarity with the site.

This is why I feel the current privilege is good.

First and foremost, no one can close a question by themselves unless they are a moderator or they have a gold tag badge in the topic and are closing as a duplicate. Otherwise, no matter who you are, you must have 4 other people agree with you before the post will be closed. If the closing of posts was unilateral for anyone at that reputation level, I would be 100% on board with fixing that in some way.

We don't want to make communities harder to clean up.

Additionally, requiring score in a tag severely limits how clean smaller tags can be. Let's, for example, take the community and look at it. Currently, there is one user with the gold badge for that tag. If we limit closing to users with at least a gold badge, this and many other small tags would quickly become filled with trash and low-quality content. Elected mods and the few users who could close in these tags would not be able to keep up with the tide.

So, what about silver tag badges? Well, there are 8 users with that badge for the same community, so a bit better... But I would bet that would still be hard to keep up with. However, there are still plenty of tags that only have 1 or 2 users with the silver badge. If questions only have small tags on them, they will require one or two users and moderators to clean up.

Even bronze tag badges present this problem. Also consider how hard cleaning up tags for new technologies would be! It'd be a long time before anyone would have these badges or even a small amount of score in those tags, let alone enough people to reliably moderate the tag.

Not every close reason needs domain expertise.

Personally, I feel like a lot of our close reasons can be applied, in most cases, by users without immediate domain experience. Let's take a look:

  1. Questions seeking debugging help ("why isn't this code working?") must include the desired behavior, a specific problem or error and the shortest code necessary to reproduce it in the question itself. Questions without a clear problem statement are not useful to other readers. See: How to create a Minimal, Complete, and Verifiable example.

In most cases, it's very easy for an outsider to know if a post has the desired behaviour and a specific problem or error just from reading the question. The shortest code necessary is usually pretty obvious for questions that fit this close reason, as well. If you're staring at several thousand lines of code, it's most definitely not an MVCE. For most scenarios, I don't see domain experience being required for this close reason.

  1. Questions about a problem that can no longer be reproduced or that was caused by a simple typographical error. While similar questions may be on-topic here, these are often resolved in a manner unlikely to help future readers. This can often be avoided by identifying and closely inspecting the shortest program necessary to reproduce the problem before posting.

This close reason is usually, in my experience, used in one of a couple ways: Domain experts try and cannot reproduce the error, the OP admits they can no longer reproduce the error, or domain experts (or even other novice users of the topic) scan the code and find a typo or missing character that breaks the code. While this close reason does often require domain experience, I don't often see it used by outsiders unless the OP says they cannot reproduce the error.

  1. Questions asking for homework help must include a summary of the work you've done so far to solve the problem, and a description of the difficulty you are having solving it.

This one isn't a close reason, but we don't do homework for people. If a question looks like homework, we just expect it to follow these guidelines. We are here to help, not to code things for people.

  1. Questions asking us to recommend or find a book, tool, software library, tutorial or other off-site resource are off-topic for Stack Overflow as they tend to attract opinionated answers and spam. Instead, describe the problem and what has been done so far to solve it.

Quite simply, we are not a search engine. If you want to find something online, there are countless ways to search for it. We won't do that for you. In most cases, it is incredibly easy to tell if someone runs afoul of this close reason. Your question, as Nicol said in his answer, was mistakenly closed as this. I myself thought it fit until I read it more carefully. It's a mistake that can be avoided by either paying closer attention on the part of the closers, or by rewording on the part of the OP. No amount of expertise restrictions will fix that.

  1. Questions about general computing hardware and software are off-topic for Stack Overflow unless they directly involve tools used primarily for programming.

Once again, most of the time, this doesn't require domain knowledge. I can 98/100 times tell if someone is asking for how to fix a tool that is not primarily for programming. If I'm unsure, I'll Google it or move on and let more knowledgeable people look. Even if others don't follow that rule, it still takes 5 votes to close a question, so I don't see it as a huge issue.

  1. Questions on professional server, networking, or related infrastructure administration are off-topic for Stack Overflow unless they directly involve programming or programming tools.

Pretty much the same explanation as above.

On being more friendly to new users

Kindness is never a bad thing. Everyone deserves a friendly welcome, whether they get off on the wrong foot or not. I agree with this sentiment.

However, Stack Overflow gets so many questions a day that this really doesn't scale. We can't pop in to every new user's posts and say "Hey, welcome! Be sure to check out the rules! Oh, and your post falls short of x, y, and z on this page in the help center, there's advise how to fix it there!" reliably. Sure, we can all try, but for each of us that do, there are hundreds more who do not or are the new users. At the size of our site, there's really not much in the way of human actions we can do to fix this.

Even going through the first posts queue for reviews isn't a sure fire way of greeting new users. You only get a limited number of reviews. If you run out of those and try to go manually find these posts, you're either going to burn out quickly, or you're going to miss far more than you catch.

In conclusion

I admire your goal of trying to help us help others fit in here. However, most of us do not see the "crushing of small communities" you speak of, and there are problems with your suggestions that I personally don't feel are outweighed by the benefits. At the least, we have something I haven't seen on any of the other online communities I've been on: The rules are presented to you in condensed form, with links to the full stuff, before you ask your first question. If you ignore those rules, there's not much we can do to make you go read them.

A site the size of Stack Overflow will never be perfect in terms of being kind and welcoming. There just aren't enough people to volunteer to police the site. All we can do is each try to be polite and helpful to new users without burning out ourselves.

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    Thank you for this detailed response. I didn't realize the problem of cleaning up tag by tag. I understand why you like the system in place, but I think there should be room for improvement. For example, if a discussion is already engaged with n upvoted answers by people with reputation>**k**, then it clearly shouldn't be closed or migrated even with 5 votes.
    – Ash
    Commented Jul 27, 2017 at 22:32
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    Not all users with rep higher than x care about the quality of the site. I wouldn't even use that as a metric, as there are many users who, regardless of their rep level, will completely ignore the rules and guidelines of the site. I agree there is room for improvement- After all, nothing is perfect. But I'm not sure what you've suggested so far is the way to go.
    – Kendra
    Commented Jul 28, 2017 at 12:54
  • Isn't part of the problem the fact that moderation seems to be purely done by hand? I wonder if it is unrealistic or too complicated to develop an algorithm that learns to predict the probability that the question is good/bad knowing the history of the users and tags involved, in order to prevent closing above a certain score?
    – Ash
    Commented Jul 28, 2017 at 13:42
  • @Ash It's hard to say. In theory, it's a perfect idea. However, there are so many minute details that can all add up to cause a post to be closed. How will such a system, for example, tell if a post is unclear or too broad? What about if it's asking for an off-site resource? I'd say, if you've got the skillset for it, give it a try! If you make such a system and it's successful, you can always make a post on Meta to explain it and ask if it should/could be added to the system.
    – Kendra
    Commented Jul 28, 2017 at 13:45
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The people asking those questions are often not developers/engineers, but are also not idiots. They have chosen Stack Overflow knowingly, because there was no better community.

And yet, they choose the wrong community.

Both of the question you cite in that paragraph are very clearly white-board questions. They're theory questions, not specific ones. These sorts of things are best asked on Software Engineering.

This brings me to my last point. Almost all research nowadays makes use of software/programming tools, but most researchers in those domains have very domain specific knowledge, and their understanding of, for example, compilation and multi-threading is extremely basic. It is natural that their questions seem poorly worded, too broad, off-topic to seasoned software engineers.

So, what exactly are you asking? That we should make exceptions for bad questions asked by people from certain backgrounds? After all, you're not claiming that these questions won't actually be "poorly worded" et. al. You're just claiming that we ought to accept such questions from them.

I don't have a problem with new users or experienced engineers. I have a problem with bad questions, regardless of who they come from.

As a second example, one of my old questions about torch7/C++ integration was closed as off-topic. I don't mind it, since I had found the solution myself. But, as you'll notice, most of the users who voted to close don't have any torch or even LUA tags. From the reasons they give, it seems that none of them really understands the question, although there were appropriate and helpful answers.

It's important to understand why this question was (mistakenly) closed. It was closed specifically as if you were asking for a tool. You weren't, but the lack of details (and a code example) in your question made it seem like you were asking for a library to convert LuaJIT cdata objects into Lua user-data objects. Furthermore, adding details to that question (like the fact that the cdata came from Torch specifically) would have been very useful for the people seeking to answer it.

Now as previously stated, closing that question was a mistake. But we can always do things to make it more difficult for such mistakes to happen. That certainly does not require any radical changing to how question closing works.


why do people with no relevant expertise have the right to close/migrate questions they know nothing about.

Because in most cases, what matters is knowledge and understanding of our rules, not domain expertise of the question itself.

If a question is asking for a library to solve problem X, the reader does not have to know anything about problem X to know that we don't allow questions asking for libraries. You don't have to know one thing about OpenGL, C++ or C# to know that this question is too broad for SO. And so on.

In the vast majority of cases, domain expertise is irrelevant to determining the appropriateness of a question.

Do we still occasionally get things wrong? Sure. But more often than not, we're right. And you can always plead your case in comments/clarify the question to get it re-opened; closing is not permanent.

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    My goodness... Completely off-topic, but I just figured out why your name has always looked so familiar! I suppose that's what I get for getting out of MTG for so long...
    – Kendra
    Commented Jul 27, 2017 at 21:08
  • Thank you for your answer. I did not chose the right words for the last paragraph. Of course I do not advocate bad questions. I just advocate a warmer welcome to newcomers instead of immediate aggressive downvotes. But your question does not really address the main point of my question , which was why do people with no relevant expertise have the right to close/migrate questions they know nothing about. The "mistake" you talk about is not a problem with the person asking the question, it is a fundamental disfuncionality of SO due to given undeserved power to users.
    – Ash
    Commented Jul 27, 2017 at 21:09
  • @Ash: See my updates. Commented Jul 27, 2017 at 21:19
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    Another reason why that question about torch7/C++ integration was mistakenly closed was because of its extremely low-quality presentation. It looked like a bad question, which got people's close-button fingers itchy. They went looking for a reason to close it, and then they thought they had found one. The solution to that is pretty obvious. I hardly ever see well-written questions getting closed for the wrong reasons.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 28, 2017 at 5:57
  • @CodyGray Well... Closing a question without understanding it just because it "looks bad" is a problem! I know nothing about java, do I go and downvote people who ask java questions that sound poorly written to me? Also, your argument does not work about the other example I gave about the migrated question. How on hell people decided to migrate that to cross validated is beyong me. As you'll see, there has been less activity on this question since its migration, compared to the attention it received when it was on stack.
    – Ash
    Commented Jul 28, 2017 at 8:22
  • I don't disagree that it's a problem, but it happens, and the workaround is a pretty simple one: don't post questions that look bad. Migration is a completely different issue. That question isn't on-topic for Stack Overflow, so migration seemed to those users like a better/nicer thing than closing it outright. I suppose you think they should have just closed it, instead of migrating? Yes, spurious migrations are a common problem. @ash
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 28, 2017 at 9:25
  • @CodyGray Thanks for your answer. The problem about migration is that being on/off-topic is not always clear, and open to interpretation. The migrated question I linked to was about a MATLAB function, and the user asked why it is not used in ML. This is the same as asking why you should, for example, use dynamic_cast rather than static_cast. Moreover, this question was considered on-topic by people that had either outstanding (32+k) or decent (me, with ~1k, and other upvoters) reptuation gained in relevant tags. But, php people said it was off-topic.
    – Ash
    Commented Jul 28, 2017 at 10:25
  • To continue, the problem is that those questions get migrated once they use popular tags. Add a popular tag to any question with the kalman, levenberg-marquardt, etc tag and they will be closed in less than a minute. I think we should let the experts in a domain decide about what is on/off topic.
    – Ash
    Commented Jul 28, 2017 at 10:29

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