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Today a user of about 4.5 years with 10K+ rep and one of the longtime top contributors has suddenly disappeared, and all his votes were retracted. I see sudden drop in reputation / votes for other Prolog contributors as well, for some much more massive than mine (if memory serves).

This can't be right, right? I thought, when a high-rep user is removed, their votes are supposed to stay.

I don't care about the rep much, but losing my recently acquired* silver Prolog badge does not make me particularly happy today.

edit: apparently what matters is the impact of the votes removal. For a low-traffic tag the votes are much harder to get, so the relative impact of removal of the same absolute number of votes is much higher, than in the higher-traffic tags.

Perhaps it's the relative impact of votes removal that should be considered in deciding whether the vote retention is warranted or not, in such cases.


* (and lost, and reacquired again, a few times because of newbie users being removed...)

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  • 35
    @MartijnPieters thanks for the reply. Are you saying 10K+ and being in a top 5 of a tag is not sufficient for vote retention? The question is, this can't be right, right?
    – Will Ness
    Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 9:22
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    using the same numbers for high- and low-traffic tags can't be right.
    – Will Ness
    Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 9:23
  • 14
    @MartijnPieters re popularity, votes in low traffic tags are much harder to get, so their value (impact of loosing) is much higher, is what I meant.
    – Will Ness
    Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 9:27
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    of course, a top 10 Java tag contributor loosing measly 70 upvotes is nothing. not so in Prolog. (is what I meant).
    – Will Ness
    Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 9:30
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    If the fact that it's in a low-traffic title is relevant to your argument, I'd suggest amending the title: "User in good standing - reputation lost in low-traffic tag"
    – Pekka
    Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 9:50
  • 75
    Wow, that was massive vote destruction. Your loss is relatively mild, a user like @capellic lost over 2000 rep. Invalidating votes makes sense if the account was destroyed for fraud, it makes no sense whatsoever in this case. Beyond the considerable loss of valuable signal from a trusted user, there is also a serious risk that [prolog] contributors will quit over this. Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 10:12
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    Yellow background instead of red circles. You must be new here. At least it's freehand :-) Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 12:16
  • 39
    For a little more context here, this appears to have been part of a rage-quit on Stack Overflow and other sites. I had undeleted a large number of posts that they had deleted as part of trying to quit, and people let us know that they were acting weirdly and removing accounts on multiple sites. They had originally requested account deletion last week and had that declined, so I'm surprised to see this deletion actually go through. I thought it had been blocked.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 12:33
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    @BradLarson: "They had originally requested account deletion last week and had that declined" What? I feel like something is amiss in your summary. An account is maintained by mutual agreement of SO and the owner, according to the FAQ the account will be removed when the owner so requests. I can understand not acting on a request suspected of being fraudulent, or doing a soft delete to give a chance to reconsider, but "declined"?
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 13:43
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    @MartijnPieters The top 5th Java user has about 40x higher tag upvotes (35.1k) than the top 5th Prolog's (890), so the relative impact of losing 70 votes is 40x smaller in Java. IOW, it's losing about 8% of your votes, vs. losing 0.2%. I think the latter has a much much smaller impact than the former.
    – Will Ness
    Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 13:43
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    @MartijnPieters I understand that this is how the things stand now. I'm saying, it doesn't feel right. maybe the relative impact of votes removal should be considered instead of the absolute one -- for any user affected, consider the percentage of votes loss on each tag instead of the total number, then take an average. Maybe. Just a thought.
    – Will Ness
    Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 13:55
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    @WillNess: again, I think you are misunderstanding me. The impact on tags is not considered at all, nor should it. All I can say is that there is a process in place to retain user votes when the account is deleted when they have made a certain impact (have been around long enough, have cast enough votes, account has not been used to defraud). It looks like this account would have qualified. I asked the CM that handled this, they have not yet responded. That's about all that can be said here.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 13:58
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    @MartijnPieters thank you, I understood. I was just proposing maybe a change in the criteria. Just a vague thought. --- Hopefully they'll reconsider. Too bad about the whole situation, I had no idea that user felt this way. :( (what is "CM"?)
    – Will Ness
    Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 14:02
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    @WillNess CM is a Community Manager, who is an actual Stack Exchange employee with special company powers to manage things that even elected moderators can't do. This includes querying special databases (such as de-anonymized voting tables to investigate voting fraud). They also handle account removals.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 14:18
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    Why not just keep all votes that aren't fraudulent? Seems pretty stupid to have to decide what votes to keep and what not. Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 20:44

3 Answers 3

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Out of respect for this person's privacy, I won't go into detail on what happened in this specific case.

I describe the process we use for vote preservation on user deletion here: Don't throw away all votes when a user is deleted

We're pretty conservative about preserving votes; we do it when the disruption clearly outweighs the potential danger, but there's a lot of potential for it to break in hard-to-fix ways, so if there's any reason to believe it will cause problems we simply don't do it. Best solution is always to not rage-quit; you can walk away from an account for years and it'll be preserved; deletion is destructive by design.

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    Is there any thought to adjusting the thresholds per tag based on the level of voting in a specific tag to prevent it from being very distruptive to a tag with a lot of questions, but not heavy voting? Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 16:00
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    @Shog9 obviously you are using counts instead percentages for a good reason (which I agree with), but there is probably 2nd check that could be done with % of the users votes in the tag (high enough to be disruptive but small enough that it isn't just a couple of people voting in the entire tag), combined with a minimum amount of activity (# questions, # of active users, # of users with > x rep). It would require some analysis with data mere mortals don't have access too. Given other priorities, I can see why it might be too much for for too little gain with as infrequently it happens Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 16:38
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    @Shog9 so, is there still a chance the CM will reconsider, or is this the final verdict? (or maybe you are the CM in question?) Martijn Pieters did say that it "looks like this account would have qualified" [for vote retention]...
    – Will Ness
    Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 16:39
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    The account is removed, @Will - I had to step out of a concert last night to delete it, as the owner was very insistent. With it goes most of the data I would need to ensure the integrity of the votes, so no I can't in good conscience revisit this for the same reasons I couldn't preserve the votes in the first place.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 16:49
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    @Shog9 OK, thanks for your consideration.
    – Will Ness
    Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 16:49
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    Upon reading this and the linked question I understand what happened here, but I'm confused by the very last sentence in your answer - "best solution is to not rage-quit." Huh? The OP of this question didn't rage-quit, and has pretty much no control over if another user rage-quits or not, so how is "don't rage-quit" supposed to help? I'm probably misunderstanding what you mean, thought I'd request some clarification.
    – Ajean
    Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 18:36
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    We're talking about what looks like 500-2000+ reputation lost for a number of users. That seems like it should we WAY above any threshold for "meh, let's just delete the votes". Unless it was above the threshold, yet you still just did it because keeping a single soon-to-be-former user happy is more important to you than all the users who will negatively be affected by your actions. Unless there was actually voter fraud involved here, which would be the only way this would make sense to me. Or if there were someone e.g. unbannably defiling posts, which seems implausible. Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 18:51
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    Sounds like you've answered your own question, @Dukeling.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 19:21
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    At some point, you're either voting because you care about having accurate, useful information on the 'Net or you aren't, @Ajean. Some folks seem to think that by tearing down the walls on their way out they're hurting the mods, or the company that run these sites... They're mostly just hurting the folks like themselves who care - or once cared - about a particular topic. Obviously, trying to get this message across to someone in the process of rage-quitting doesn't usually work, so I like to acclimate folks to the idea ahead of time.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 19:24
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    @Shog9 Ok I see where you're going with that - maybe rephrasing that sentence might be cleaner though. "We really encourage people not to rage-quit" or something like that would get the point across better, because "don't rage-quit" isn't the "solution" to this particular issue raised by this OP.
    – Ajean
    Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 21:25
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    @Shog9: Why do you need to react that promptly? All of this seems to have happened within less than two weeks. And why can't a deleted account be first just suspended, at least for the first time? Both could help to reduce what you call rage quit.
    – false
    Commented Jun 9, 2017 at 15:48
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    Let's drop the conspiracy theories; I've tried hard not to be too specific here because I see no reason to discuss someone's actions when they're not around to defend themselves. We try hard to honor deletion requests in a timely manner; I don't care much for sites that hold your account "hostage" when you want to leave. We only took as long as we did with this deletion to give the author a chance to cool down and think it over a bit, and to give me time to ensure the voting was analyzed properly; once done, there's no value in sitting on a request.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 9, 2017 at 18:09
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    @WillNess: Maybe or not. After -325 was a serial compensatory upvoting (from probably the same account, same time, no double upvotes). And even that could have been the little brother/college roommate ... At least that came from a person not knowing the notion of serial voting.
    – false
    Commented Jun 9, 2017 at 18:11
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    @Shog9 all right, but for us the prolog regulars, who saw the real value of that user's contributions through the years, the dismissal of all of their votes seems... it doesn't make much sense, really. deletion or not, the issue is vote retention from a valued contributor - valued, judging on merits of their answers.
    – Will Ness
    Commented Jun 9, 2017 at 18:14
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    @Shog9 as I said, we don't know the real voting data, so will have to live with your judgment on it.
    – Will Ness
    Commented Jun 9, 2017 at 18:15
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For the record, it seems that the regrettable deletion of user Boris/XXX/user1812457 was in itself caused influenced by another user deletion. In fact,

  1. On May 27 at 5:39 everything seemed to be fine as exemplified by this comment.

  2. On May 30, I noted myself -140 due to a user deletion.

  3. Around this time user Boris suffered -325 due to a user deletion.

  4. The next I see is the name change to XXX. And the request to be deleted stated in the profile.

  5. I asked precisely about this this. And got a more or less confirming answer.

  6. Today I see -1198. Now, at least I know where that one (1) dv came from 8-(.

Instead of ridiculing constitutional amendments, it might be more appropriate to consider fundamental unalienable rights for SO.

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  • "this was not the reason, just a symptom" is "a more or less confirming answer"?
    – Paul Roub
    Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 14:57
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    @PaulRoub: A denying answer sounds very different.
    – false
    Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 15:14
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    one dv, ever? :) -- silver linings...
    – Will Ness
    Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 15:23
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    @WillNess: That one dv ever by Boris.
    – false
    Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 17:04
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    @YowE3K: It says +2 / -1200 for me. So that is one dv less. And 120 upvotes less. Right?
    – false
    Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 22:57
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    Yep - that will have to be right. (I thought it might have just shown a net -1198, which could have been +12 / -1210. You can tell I've never been affected by a deleted user event.)
    – YowE3K
    Commented Jun 8, 2017 at 23:07
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    have you also noticed your "user removed" rep changes on May 30th and 26th when you lost 12 and 2 upvotes respectively? these might be related.
    – Will Ness
    Commented Jun 9, 2017 at 17:22
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    @WillNess: yes, could have escalated with serial compensatory upvotes which then count as fraud etc. Well, it's not easy here for a <10k language, but better than anywhere else: tag-edits, style attacks, deleted questions etc. One needs to deflect this one by one.
    – false
    Commented Jun 9, 2017 at 17:29
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    IOW, those two accounts could have been found to belong to the same actual person as the main one (which in itself is acceptable, iff there's no self-voting i.e. the dreaded "voter fraud"), and it might have been the case that there indeed was some cross-voting between these accounts, which could have prompted accusations of sockpuppetry. But it could've also been an honest mistake.
    – Will Ness
    Commented Jun 9, 2017 at 17:29
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    in any case, the votes by the "main" user were to the point, objective, judging by amounts you lost, and comparatively, how much smaller was my loss (which makes total sense).
    – Will Ness
    Commented Jun 9, 2017 at 17:32
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    @WillNess: Regardless on what happened on this level, the actual merits of Boris have not been taken into account. Or so it looks to me.
    – false
    Commented Jun 9, 2017 at 17:32
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    yes. though if there were some cross-voting, this is seriously frowned upon activity. but the main account indeed is solid. it makes perfect sense for the two accounts' votes to be retracted, but much less so for the main one. I could understand if any bounties given by them were retracted, but not the votes.
    – Will Ness
    Commented Jun 9, 2017 at 17:34
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    the "actual merits" that could have been known only by persons actually involved in the tag.
    – Will Ness
    Commented Jun 9, 2017 at 17:35
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    (one correction: "found to belong to same actual person" could only be a suspicion on SO's part - same IP number etc. it is actually possible for a PC to be actually shared by several people, though this "defense" is always going to be dismissed as spurious).
    – Will Ness
    Commented Jun 9, 2017 at 17:54
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After all this time this still makes no sense to me. They wanted to rage-quit; it looks like you have rage-agreed to their request.

If they artificially inflated their vote count and then gave the fake votes away as bounties, why not just zero out all the bounties they have ever given to anyone.

If they upvoted others, so what? What's the harm? Having meager 100 rep (or is it 50?) is enough to practically unlimited upvoting, day after day, week after week. So what's the harm if a high-rep user does it?

You could sum up all the votes they got from the upper level users on the tag -- who are legit -- and see that it was most certainly above the minimum level of a 100 (or 50). How do I know? I have just upvoted their old answer (and that's why I'm posting this answer, too).

If they pressured you in removing their account, why not rename it to userNNN, replace the user's password so they can't log in, and run your queries and analyses at your leisure pace.

And if your system doesn not allow you to do this, maybe it should.

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