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Would it be worth using an historical lock for: Why hasn't functional programming taken over yet?

The question was asked in May 14, '10 and deleted on Feb 10 this year after up to 6 years.

  • Lots of views (over 100K; but generally 350K+) => 34,743 times (only)

  • Lots of votes (multiple hundreds) => 186 votes, 143 favorites

    • => first answer by Eric Lippert has 515 votes
  • Lots of people linking to it => just made the front page of r/programming (well, its webarchive alter ego)

  • The fact that the information inside of it won't be obsolete -- it'll still be useful in a few years. => while functional programming may take over, the arguments and counter-arguments around it are likely to still apply

The question is a bad fit because the topic is very broad... but would it be worth keeping around?

Note: as a precautionary step I have pro-actively protected the question.

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  • 7
    Meh Haskellers.... pro-actively delete the question... :) Commented Feb 27, 2016 at 14:17
  • It has seen some state changes already. One was from the almighty Shog9. Are we going to add more to it?
    – rene
    Commented Feb 27, 2016 at 14:21
  • 1
    @MartinJames typo? "Meth Haskellers"
    – gnat
    Commented Feb 27, 2016 at 14:23
  • 1
    @gnat could explain a lot, yes:) Commented Feb 27, 2016 at 14:25
  • 14
    Robert already added the "historical significance" lock once. I'm not really sure what prompted him to remove it. It does seem appropriate to me here; there is good content in the answers.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 27, 2016 at 14:28
  • 16
    Copy/paste will not save broken links in other sites. Eric's answer is really interesting and worth reading and sharing. Please mods, add a historical lock to this question.
    – Zanon
    Commented Feb 27, 2016 at 17:11
  • 3
    If we're agreeing that it should be locked, then we're basically also saying it should be closed, so no one should be trying to reopen this right now. It is pretty clearly opinion based.
    – davidism
    Commented Feb 27, 2016 at 18:18
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    @StuartMarks A wiki lock over a historical lock is generally meant for list-style questions which require active maintenance from the community to keep it relevant. This does not.
    – animuson StaffMod
    Commented Feb 27, 2016 at 18:41
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    @animuson I was mostly joking, but the question has quite a history of deletion/undeletion and it even had a historic lock which was removed. Some of this was action by other moderators. I think a historic lock is fine -- thanks for applying it -- but I hope it sticks this time. Commented Feb 27, 2016 at 19:36
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    Am I the only one dispirited that this was locked instead of moved to someone blog, i.e. Eric's blog ericlippert.com?
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 28, 2016 at 21:49
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    I wanted to give Eric an upvote. Now I can't. :/
    – canon
    Commented Feb 28, 2016 at 21:54
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    I'm happy to move it to my blog, but I am a little busy right now. I have a long queue of articles all ready to go in the blog; I queued them up in anticipation of having no time right now as I am just starting in on a new job where I have to learn four new-to-me languages. Two of them are functional, ironically enough. Commented Feb 28, 2016 at 22:42
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    Even the superb answer of Eri Lippert doesn't really go into details. How much shorter are functional programms? How much does productivity increase? Probably cannot because the topic is just too broad. Not sure how much it gives beyond an introduction into the topic. I vote for blog post. Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 18:17
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    @animuson - It might have been nice to add a link back to this Meta discussion in the comments section. When people visit that question and wonder why it's locked, it'd be helpful to have a path back to this question so that they can see the reasons and community consensus.
    – JDB
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 18:30
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    @canon: Don't expect an upvote in return! Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 19:28

3 Answers 3

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This seems like pretty much what the "Historical Significance" lock was designed for: an unlikely "magic 8-ball" post that somehow managed to attract a decent answer or two anyway.

Animuson locked it the other day, and I went and cleaned up the comments just now - leaving another one to hopefully discourage anyone from restarting this discussion in another few years.

Thanks for bringing it up.

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    I still cannot find any positive points about historical locks. Why not just close the question and leave it be (without deactivating editing and commenting mechanisms, especially by the initial content authors)?
    – Bruno
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 22:12
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    @Bruno Would not subsequent deletion also deactivate said mechanisms? It was deleted three times already. Closing is essentially a nomination for deletion.
    – user3717023
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 22:29
  • @Sally, yes, maybe we could have a similar mechanism that prevents deletion instead.
    – Bruno
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 22:40
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    Rather than re-hashing a very old discussion here in comments, please read this post @Bruno.
    – Shog9
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 23:08
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    Hi @Shog9 ... something to consider dude .. give thanks for not having to participate in yet another tedious discussion about this question, enjoy the answers as they are, and go on about their business. Here's the thing, when you try to sound bratty and funny and a bit edgey, you're just not. It's my job on the site to make "funny!" assholish comments that are sort of bratty and edgey and hahahaha. It is let us say: just too complicated you know? It's like: that's a comment from a moderator (or owner of SO - whatever you are) on a super-high volume page...it's sort of too much dude
    – Fattie
    Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 12:22
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    [cont...] like I had to sort of read it a couple times and figure out what was going on. I really don't want to be told to "go on about my business". You know? It's a tricky/ unfair business. Participants like me can get away with making "funny!" smartassish comments on the occasional never-read post, when addressing someone I know anyway. I suggest only a boring, ultra-corporate tone works for such a high-volume official signpost you know? Note too that for non-native speakers (ie the vast majority of users) it's just confusing. A word from the wise.
    – Fattie
    Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 12:25
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    keep your pithy humour for those "close tag" jokes :)
    – Fattie
    Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 12:25
  • Wasn't trying to be funny, @Joe. Read the link I gave Bruno - folks get very, scary serious about stuff like this. That question needs to stay locked. If someone needs to be an asshole about it to keep folks from each other's throats, well... That is my job.
    – Shog9
    Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 14:30
  • and a tough job it is rock on
    – Fattie
    Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 14:42
3

There's actually a lot of history on this particular question.

If you look at the history, you'll see it was actually locked in May 2010 based on this question from before the split and then @RobertHarvey did some maintenance on in October 2011 by Robert Harvey 8 months after he won his moderator election (in February 2011). Two months after that, he unlocked the post probably related to an analysis of old questions spawned by this question (they were on the same day):

I hope @RobertHarvey can weigh in on this post, and I also hope that @animuson can give this question a longer answer explaining why he chose to re-lock this question rather than leave it deleted.

Disclosure: I have a bone to pick on this issue, as this similarly popular question was not chosen to be undeleted and locked. It seems as though it's just as subjective as the other question, and has significantly more votes and on the same order of views.

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    Oh, this question again.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 19:47
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    To answer your "Disclosure," the Eric Lippert answer contributes significant, meaningful information to the site in a topical way. The question you linked in your meta post doesn't appear to contribute anything except career opinions, and it's too off-topic to be a good historical lock candidate.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 20:00
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    @RobertHarvey Fair. Why was it unlocked though?
    – durron597
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 20:01
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    I don't remember; that was four years ago. But your analysis seems plausible.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 20:23
-5

This is a typical example of Stack Overflow question that isn't quite right (at least according to the current guidelines), but that has some interesting content that should be kept somewhere, somehow. There are a few exceptional questions like that.

I think there should either be:

  • An additional migration mechanism that allows for such questions to be migrated to other sites (e.g. Programmers.SE, but not necessarily), even after 60 days, on the condition that the receiving site deems it to be suitable there.
  • A new kind of closure, that doesn't actually lock the question as tightly: something to keep the question a bit more editable (perhaps even with additional answers, possibly with a reputation threshold to avoid "me-toos").
  • A new "historical SO" site? It may sound a bit odd, but we could push the undesirable questions that are not good fit for any Stack Exchange site there, so as to keep what is potentially useful and interesting information (probably better than migrating everything to Programmers or Software Recommendations).

The problem with historical locks (like the one activated right now on that question) is that they are terrible. They are against everything Stack Exchange stands for. You can get highly upvoted answers that would really need an update (or even with incorrect but popular content), but nothing can be done at all: no downvote, no edits, no comments.

Whatever we consider regarding deletion migration, the "historical lock" feature should really not even exist.

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  • 2
    I don't like the editable closure idea much and I agree that historical locks are somewhat counter-intuitive. The additional migration mechanism without any time limit is just to copy and adapt the question (and possibly the answers too, giving attribution) and pose it again at another site. In this case it may be a fit for Programmers SE if worded correctly, probably narrowed down too. Appropriate answers may be different from here. The only alternative in my eyes: Keep it deleted here and put in on a blog somwhere else. Not everything about programming has to live here. Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 18:23
  • @Trilarion The problem with blogs is that you lose the multi-answer aspect (and the Q&A becomes a bit contrived), as well as the interaction between SE users. I'm generally not a big fan of historical deletion (deletion is fine for the bad quality questions that are caught reasonably early). Maybe we just need an so-did-not-like-us.stackexchange.com to migrate those questions to (I'm sure there could be a better name).
    – Bruno
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 18:30
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    voted down for "e.g. Programmers.SE", wish I could do it twice
    – gnat
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 19:13
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    @gnat Perhaps you should have read the end of the sentence "on the condition that the receiving site deems it to be suitable there", or the rest of the answer for that matter...
    – Bruno
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 19:16
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    perhaps you should have read What goes on Programmers.SE? A guide for Stack Overflow "A good question on Programmers.SE would be a good question on Stack Overflow..." etc
    – gnat
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 19:21
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    @gnat To be honest, I wasn't focussing on this particular question. My answer had more to do with the general aspects in this meta question. Some of these problematic questions may be good on Programmers.SE, some of them will not. I'm just against historical locks, and to some extent, I'm not keen on deletion either. If people really want to get rid of stuff on SO, migration to a new "other" SE site could actually work.
    – Bruno
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 19:24
  • questions that "may be good on Programmers.SE" can stay (alive and open!) at Stack Overflow, sites scope sufficiently overlap to allow that. "When evaluating a question, you shouldn't be looking to push it off on some other site; instead, ask if it could be appropriate and on-topic for you, the experts who the author decided to ask. Be a bit jealous of your site..." (Respect the community - your own, and others’)
    – gnat
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 19:29
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    @Bruno - I appreciate the hesitation to delete off content that appears to be providing value for the site. (Worth noting, I haven't read the main site question at hand). But migrating that presumed to be valuable content to another SE site is the equivalent of asking to have the content deleted. You are in effect asking another community to curate content that this community was unwilling to deal with. You should be cautious about that sort of request, especially if you do not have trusted user status at the receiving site. ...
    – user1345223
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 19:31
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    ... If and when that community deletes the content, you are effectively powerless to do anything about it unless you have sufficient reputation there. As an active member of Programmers, I would be remiss if I didn't warn you in advance that the community actively curates (read: deletes) content like the subject question once we've deemed it's no longer providing value to the overall site.
    – user1345223
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 19:31
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    @Bruno - You may wish to edit your first bullet point then. And regardless of where the migration destination lies, be cautious in surrendering your ownership of content you believe to be valuable. Said more simply, on SO, your vote carries more weight due to your participation and earned reputation.
    – user1345223
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 19:39
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    Staff can migrate old questions if need-be, and we'll usually do so upon request IF it's clear that the question is going to be appropriate on the destination while being wholly inappropriate in its current location. Of course, this question would probably get closed if we moved it to Programmers, so this solves nothing.
    – Shog9
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 20:35
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    If by "familiar" you mean "this isn't the first time whiny progse users have bitched at me for believing what they put in their own FAQ", then you're quite right @gnat. Beyond that, if you want to disallow licensing questions on Programmers the place to start is on Programmers' Meta, not badgering me on some other site. The place to end is there too.
    – Shog9
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 20:59
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    Every year since '10, someone tries to tell me that all of Progse's problems are the fault of evil SO users, @gnat. And then they leave and are replaced by... Well, mostly by SO users. Who then decide all of the problems with the site are caused by more recent immigrants, and the cycle begins anew. It would be an understatement to say that I'm a little bit incredulous by now. Perhaps next moderator election you should vote for whoever promises to make SO build a wall...
    – Shog9
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 21:15
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    Yeah, yeah, everyone wants to believe it's the filthy immigrants @gnat. I don't even bother pointing out the numbers anymore, because they're publicly available and still get ignored. It's so, so painful to look at yourself and ask if, just maybe, there's room for improvement; much, much easier to blame the barbarian hordes whose constant rattling of the gates must assuredly be destabilizing the roads.
    – Shog9
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 21:27
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    @gnat, a quick look at your top 20 (or so) answers on ProgSE suggests that you've made about 5000 fake internet points (at least) based on "broken windows", so you probably don't mind them as much as you claim. The fact is you found those questions sufficiently interesting at the time to write an answer others found interesting. I'm questioning whether that sort of stuff should be deleted in general (or even closed, especially with a historical lock, since it prevents any updates).
    – Bruno
    Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 14:44

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