4

The following question has been recently locked with a historical lock: Is there a properly tested alternative to Select2 or Chosen?

This is a recommendation question with answers offering a few links to some projects and basically nothing more of any great value.

There is not a single sentence on how to use any of those projects or any other helpful information. Do we really need to preserve what are basically link-only answers, just because the question has a high visitation count?

22
  • 3
    I see no value in this question: of the three answers, one has been updated to say "unmaintained, do not use"; and only the accepted answer has a score above 4. Locking the question basically makes the page an advert for the library in the accepted answer.
    – IMSoP
    Nov 13, 2021 at 10:50
  • In addition to @IMSoP - the question doesn't even make sense. They want a library with tests. Yet, having tests doesn't (by itself) make the library useful. Moreover, it's very hard to actually find a library that is a drop-in replacement of another one. Or otherwise have a complete feature overlap. Having used Select2 I am aware of some of its shortcomings but I wouldn't want to replace it with a library that does the same as it. I'd want a library that does what I want from Select2.
    – VLAZ
    Nov 13, 2021 at 10:55
  • 22
    Why do we have to complain about every question that gets historically locked? Isn't the whole point of a historical lock so that we don't have to have this endless discussion about every old, off-topic question? Does no one else get tired of this? How is it hurting anyone for it to be there, locked? Nov 13, 2021 at 11:08
  • 3
    From the tag wiki... "Historical locks are used on questions that still have some value, but are off-topic.", is that not what's being done here? Nov 13, 2021 at 11:11
  • 12
    Speaking of endless discussion, the alternative was a likely close/reopen war. It was chilling at 2 reopen and 6 delete (with 4? to go to deletion). Ironically, deleting it would've resulted in the opposite question ("why wasn't it historically locked" or just "why was it deleted?") at some or another point, and a successful reopening would've resulted in a meta discussion on whether it's on-topic or not. I didn't expect a meta post for the historical lock alternative, but I guess all options were lose-lose-lose this time around
    – Zoe is on strike Mod
    Nov 13, 2021 at 11:12
  • 3
    @Zoe It was on its way to be deleted. There would be no value lost. If someone asked question asking for un-deletion I don't think it would result with un-deletion by community vote. If there was danger for the question for be reopened, as a mod I would either wait for it to be reopened and close it as a mod or opt for deletion rather than using historical lock. Anything except historical lock. Nov 13, 2021 at 11:17
  • 3
    @Zoe I don't think the historical lock satisfies either camp in this case: those voting to reopen probably wanted to add additional answers, which they still can't do. Now we're stuck with a question that will forever advertise this one library, even if there are dozens of better answers to the original (rather vague) question.
    – IMSoP
    Nov 13, 2021 at 11:18
  • 15
    You are right, @IMSoP. The historical lock is a compromise solution, which, by definition, essentially means that it does not satisfy either camp. It's a terrible solution, but it was invented so that we wouldn't have to listen to the two camps complain endlessly. Nov 13, 2021 at 11:23
  • 3
    @CodyGray I get the point of historical locks as a compromise between deleting and not deleting. What I'm saying is that in this case I don't think anyone is that interested in preserving the current content; they want to re-open to add new content. When there are list questions with several popular answers to preserve, there are arguments from preserving; this is not one of those. If the question was deleted, I don't think there'd be lots of people demanding the single 126-vote answer be reinstated.
    – IMSoP
    Nov 13, 2021 at 14:08
  • Slightly related: Should locks all have expiration dates? Nov 13, 2021 at 17:07
  • 1
    @CodyGray I don't think mods are here to satisfy both or any camps. I know that some posts are not clean cut, so I am not going to go in that direction. Historical lock is for "preserving value". I am saying before applying the lock mods should try to objectively look whether there is some value worth preserving. This Q is off topic beyond doubt, and answers hold extremely little or no value. The only "value" here is 70K visits. Also once question is locked it is dead. So next question is whether such "dead" question that cannot be maintained will hold some value in the future. Nov 13, 2021 at 18:55
  • 2
    @Zoe I was on my way to clean the house ;) so my first comment probably missed the point. What would you do as regular user if you landed on that question? From what I have seen, you would either vote to close (if it was open) and would probably vote to delete. Or at least I wouldn't be surprised to see your name besides. I am asking you to look at the question with the same eyes. Whatever action you do as a mod it may be questioned, but that is the reason you should do what you can defend with solid arguments. Arguments about preventing CV wars, or potential meta discussion don't hold water. Nov 13, 2021 at 19:01
  • 3
    @DalijaPrasnikar You won't get an answer from the mods because the truth is they're too scared to delete crap, because that displeases their SE Inc. overlords.
    – Ian Kemp
    Nov 13, 2021 at 20:26
  • 2
    @IanKemp I really wonder where you get these ideas from. I've never once had a staff member so much as hint to me that they are uncomfortable with us moderators deleting things. Nov 14, 2021 at 5:16
  • 5
    Dalija, there is no way to "objectively" determine whether a post has value. The only "objective" metrics are answers, votes, and view counts. By any of those metrics, this Q&A has at least some value, enough value that someone should have to think really hard before deleting it. The historical lock was introduced to avoid having to waste a bunch of time thinking really hard about voting to delete something, to avoid having to wring our hands wondering if we're throwing away anything of value. We just lock it and be done with it. If it has value to some, they can see it; the rest ignore it. Nov 14, 2021 at 5:18

1 Answer 1

6

I'm not sold that this hill is worth dying on.

Sure, the answers are wildly out of date and not relevant anymore - one of the libraries mentions IE 8 for goodness' sake - but just removing the historical lock will turn this into a battle between the factions that want to preserve even out of date info versus those who want more relevant answers.

I mean, it isn't like the historically locked post is wildly off topic, either...

22
  • 2
    Deleting would be fine option here. There is nothing of value worth preserving. Anyone who wants more relevant answers can go to Software Recommendation and post new question there. Nov 13, 2021 at 19:15
  • 4
    "Some people want crap remaining on the site and other people don't want crap on the site. Do not attempt at all to improve this otherwise both groups will squabble over it." Is how I read this. I'm not sure how "don't touch this crap" is really the best choice of action here.
    – VLAZ
    Nov 13, 2021 at 19:40
  • 1
    @VLAZ It's the option that the mods use because it means they don't have to enforce quality standards, the latter of which pisses off SE Inc.
    – Ian Kemp
    Nov 13, 2021 at 20:22
  • 3
    @IanKemp I'm not at all convinced SE Inc. has any interest in quality standards. Unless you meant that quality standards do piss off SE Inc. in which case, I'm inclined to agree.
    – VLAZ
    Nov 13, 2021 at 20:26
  • 5
    I'm really offended these days that no one sees fit to assign agency to moderators. Every action we take gets somehow blamed on Evil SE Inc., as if we have no autonomy or individual thoughts. I'm more than happy to have someone disagree with me about an action I've taken, but please at least respect me (and Zoe) enough to acknowledge that we made the decision. None of this is imposed on us by SE Inc. We're not afraid of the company and refusing to take action because of it. Each and every one of us is doing what we think is right. You may disagree with us, but it's us you're disagreeing with Nov 14, 2021 at 5:21
  • 2
    The question is more than 60 days old, @chivracq, so it cannot be migrated to any other sites. Not that it should be, because, as has been pointed out, a fair amount of the information is out of date. If people still see value in this, they should ask a new question. We're talking about applying a historical lock here, emphasis on the word "historical". Nov 14, 2021 at 5:23
  • 3
    @VLAZ How about if we focus on the new incoming crap that everyone agrees is obviously crap, instead of focusing all our attention and argumentative energies on the old stuff that might be crap if you look hard enough? Nov 14, 2021 at 5:25
  • 1
    @CodyGray There is no absolute objective metrics, but we do that kind of "value" assessing all the time. Here the only "value" is 70K views. If it had less votes, any mod would probably delete it without blinking twice. I give mods agency and they do have final word. But mods can also make mistakes and this is why we have Meta, when mod makes decision and that is brought up on Meta I expect that mod either says "Oops, I handled that wrong" or give arguments about their decision that don't boil down to "Because I say so". Nov 14, 2021 at 9:02
  • 1
    I can still disagree with mods final decision, but It is quite different when mod gives some well presented arguments. In such cases I can see the other side. Right now, I don't. I don't want to pick the fight with any mod, nor question every decision made, but I want to know the reasoning behind actions in moments when I don't see any. If for nothing else, then to adjust my POV and further actions if there is a good reason to do so. Nov 14, 2021 at 9:05
  • 1
    @chivracq There is SE softwarerecs.stackexchange.com site. Even if we could migrate this question there it is crappy question with poor answers and it most likely would not be welcome there in current state. Since it is old and rather poor Q/A, anyone who wants to have more recent information can just ask new question at more appropriate site. That includes anyone who wanted to add new answer to this one. They can just self answer. Nov 14, 2021 at 9:15
  • 3
    @DalijaPrasnikar Let me ask you a counter-question: what value is there to deleting it? Locking prevents votes, the notice makes it clear it's off-topic and should never be asked again, and a few of the libraries appear to be somewhat up to date. Additionally, this isn't the first time we've locked questions of similar quality to this one.
    – Zoe is on strike Mod
    Nov 14, 2021 at 11:26
  • 1
    @Zoe What value is there to deleting it? Well, first new users don't distinguish locked, closed or open questions. They only see number of upvotes and potentially views. Often such questions are used as arguments when they ask about their closed questions. Even if they don't come here and ask, many will use such questions and ask similar ones based on their perception what is acceptable. If off topic question does not hold much value, then removing such question not only cleans old stuff but also helps in preventing similar new posts. 1/... Nov 14, 2021 at 11:46
  • 3
    So you're more or less saying that the historical lock is pointless? That's a completely different discussion you're looking for. Also, if you genuinely end up with similar questions, deleting the existing ones means you can't use them as dupe targets, decreasing the efficiency of the gold badge holders, which in turn means you risk ending up with FGITW ninjaing a regular off-site resource request and you get new trash answers anyway.
    – Zoe is on strike Mod
    Nov 14, 2021 at 11:47
  • 1
    Next, closed questions don't allow new answers and as such they lose value with time, exception are closed wiki questions that are actively maintained and can offer some more valuable information that is otherwise off topic and if removed that value would be lost. Locked questions are dead in the water. They don't allow updating information, they don't allow even leaving comments. they should hold some really precocious information to be preserved and another important point would be that they will still hold same or similar value in the future because of their frozen state. 2/... Nov 14, 2021 at 11:51
  • 2
    Reading these comments, it suddenly sounds like you're complaining that the Q&A was locked, and that it would be better to simply unlock it but leave it closed. That way, it could still be edited, updated, commented upon, voted upon, etc. Unfortunately, we can't do that, because we can't trust that people won't get into reopen and/or delete wars with these questions. Nov 14, 2021 at 12:04

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .