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We used to have "Too Localized" which read:

This question is unlikely to help any future visitors; it is only relevant to a small geographic area, a specific moment in time, or an extraordinarily narrow situation that is not generally applicable to the worldwide audience of the Internet. For help making this question more broadly applicable, see the FAQ.

It was good for gimme teh codez questions because the feature requested by the user would only help them, and so it fit there. At the time, this was a good fit for that type of question but was misused in other scenarios and so the reason was removed.

While I would personally like to see it reinstated, I doubt that we will go back to it. The current outlook is that if it requires writing a book or entire program to answer, then the question is too broad, so that is the close reason to use. As a result, questions asking for features have now gotten very specific in the demands for them.

"It needs to foo the bar, in the x situation, while being triggered from y; the output should be z". I see these daily, if not hourly. I vote to close them because they are simply requests for the community to do the work of others, and we are not a job shop. I have been fairly active on meta and am aware of the historical discussions that accompany these close reasons, so I don't find it counter-intuitive to choose the right reason.

However, many do find it counter-intuitive to find the right close reason in these cases and the end result is that the question remains open. In fact, it also means that if it is easier for a user to post an answer in only 5 minutes as opposed to reading 30 minutes of past discussion on the topic, they more than likely will post an answer and move on. Recently, this behavior has become the topic of taboo on meta here, and many are tired of seeing these types of low-quality questions receive answers.

While I am not sold on addressing this from an answer perspective retroactively, I believe that we can preemptively approach this situation by making it easier to close these questions. If it were easier to close the question, then there would be none of these answers.

Often users asking low-quality questions are asking for an actual feature to be created, or for an entire tutorial on how to solve their problem. When they include in their question something to the effect of "or direct me to one already available" it is very easy to close it as requesting an off-site resource. However, the on-site version is less obvious.

Here is an example of one, at the time of writing. It took glancing at the main site once to find. It was the first one I opened, https://stackoverflow.com/questions/33355790/how-to-assign-the-same-field-value-to-several-records-in-sqlite. It has clear issues and will probably be closed at some point in the near future because of increased awareness of it from informed users. In the wild though, it would probably have sat, no close votes, and garnered an answer or two effectively doing the work for them.

I propose that we make the "Too Broad" close reason more explicit in covering these types of questions so that experienced users can have clearer guidance on using this close reason.

Your question would receive too many long answers, would require users to create all the code, or write a tutorial. Please add details to narrow the answer set or to isolate an issue that can be answered in a few paragraphs.

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  • 18
    I frequently use the asking for 3rd party resource or too broad closing reasons for such questions (depends on their flavor a bit). They're just fine. Commented Oct 26, 2015 at 22:09
  • 48
    @πάνταῥεῖ - I believe that many people who frequent meta or are well informed such as yourself have no problems with the close reason because they are aware of both the outlook and the history of the reason's design. However, users who are not as aware of meta but who are experienced Stack Overflow users could probably use the extra amount of clarification.
    – Travis J
    Commented Oct 26, 2015 at 22:10
  • 14
    Or just expand stack overflow into a 'pay for your bespoke code' bidding service? :)
    – Sobrique
    Commented Oct 26, 2015 at 22:20
  • 111
    @Sobrique: No.‪
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 26, 2015 at 22:21
  • 1
    @KevinB - It is already there though. As stated numerous times in other places, if it requires you to write the entire feature then it is too broad. This would just highlight that. Also, I believe that the "how do I do X" example you give, while clearly broad in itself, it perhaps lending itself to situations where an entire feature isn't required to be created by the community and as a result wouldn't fall under this reason anyway (both prior to change or with this wording). If you would rather see an alternative, please do post an answer for an off-topic suggestion.
    – Travis J
    Commented Oct 26, 2015 at 22:43
  • 3
    This for example: stackoverflow.com/questions/33356519 it is in no way too broad, but it would fit under your close reason.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 26, 2015 at 22:44
  • 2
    The close reason we really want/need is too localized. Unfortunately that was taken away because it was abused far too often. The only option we have left for questions like this is to simply downvote them.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 26, 2015 at 22:46
  • 7
    Downvote them? I want to reduce them to a cold plasma. Commented Oct 26, 2015 at 23:43
  • 4
    Point of order, it's not "gimme teh codez", it's "plz send teh codez". Just sayin'. :)
    – Kev
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 12:15
  • 116
    I just want a "Your question is bad and you should feel bad" close option. IS THAT SO WRONG?
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 14:27
  • 2
    @KevinB nah, it's super useful, and makes the world a better place. Trust me, I checked.
    – user1228
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 15:09
  • 1
    Here are more examples. Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 15:11
  • 10
    Well, I'm hoping for 'You have keyboard skills of a dismembered octopus and the debugging acumen of a brain-damaged amoeba'. Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 15:11
  • 1
    I would attempt to approach this from the other end. We can easily close "malicious" questions manually, but it should be made harder to post a common duplicate question by accident. If the "close as duplicate" search were better, an option would be to display search results as you're writing the title, allowing to jump straight to a solution and save a redundant post.
    – Kayaman
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 16:22
  • 2
    stackoverflow.com/questions/33378222/… Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 22:00

7 Answers 7

95

I've become increasingly pessimistic over the years that this problem can be solved by a close reason. No, pessimistic is misleading; I'm straight-up convinced that closing is the wrong tool for the job here. Trying to solve this problem by closing these questions is like trying to defend against a tidal wave by organizing a bucket brigade; the damage still occurs, you just ensure more people are in harm's way when it hits.

Let's recap:

  • We started with Too Localized. Joel said this was for questions of the form, "Why is there a green Honda Civic parked out in front of my house?" - questions whose answers were guaranteed to never help anyone ever again. By the time we removed it, folks were using it to close common questions that in some cases proved to be insanely useful.
  • We replaced that with the "minimal understanding" close reason that was intended to directly address these "requirements dump" questions. It turned out to be even more popular than Too Localized - folks went looking through the archives to find canonical questions from years past to close with it. Still didn't make a dent in new requirement-dump questions though.
  • That got replaced with the combination of Too Broad and "resource requests". Both of which are still widely misused, and neither of which is making an appreciable dent in the problem.

At every turn, attempts to solve this problem have resulted in useful questions being closed without actually doing anything for the problem of obscure one-off requirement-dumps. The problem is in the nature of what gets closed: boring, obscure questions tend to be ignored unless they're overtly offensive or blatantly off-topic, so the questions that enough folks actually view to close tend to be those that... aren't as useless as they first appear. Turns out finding drugs that kill cancer isn't hard; lots of things kill cancer. Drugs that find and kill only cancer are considerably harder...

Your Common Sense was right: closure is the wrong tool for this job. There are too many of these questions to close even if we could identify them accurately, and we're universally bad at identifying them accurately. And in our efforts to do so, we've damaged the site, created divisions between people who would've been working toward the same ends, and wasted a tremendous amount of time and effort.

Closing is a perfectly good tool for off-topic questions, a reasonable tool for unclear or subjective questions, and even a decent enough tool for duplicates. But it simply doesn't work for these, and after years of trying to make it work it's time we admitted that.

See also:

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  • 50
    Maybe I missed something obvious -- but what is the correct tool for this? Or is that a much more difficult question?
    – hichris123
    Commented Oct 26, 2015 at 23:22
  • 15
    That's the big question @hichris123.
    – Taryn StaffMod
    Commented Oct 26, 2015 at 23:23
  • 2
    downvote of course. :) unfortunately (or, fortunately, depending on how you see it) that leads to harsher rate limiting/bans. If we really did want to allow these questions, surely we wouldn't want to punish people for asking them.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 26, 2015 at 23:28
  • 6
    @KevinB But downvotes on open questions resulting in rate limiting/question bans is exactly what we need to deal with these kinds of problematic questions. As of right now the question ban is the only tool in place to actually discourage people from asking questions like this.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 0:35
  • 14
    but, if we don't want questions like this, why do we not want to close them?
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 0:36
  • 4
    Closing is ineffective in this case due to scale, so we need another solution. If downvoting is that solution, maybe a bit more explanation on downvoting is in order.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 0:41
  • 4
    What we need is for a downvote to weight 100 times an upvote. This will solve all the problem.
    – bjb568
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 0:53
  • 9
    Closing is ineffective at preventing all kinds of off-topic questions. No matter how many quality sign posts we make for duplicate questions, we still get duplicate questions asked every single day. Maybe we shouldn't close those either? I don't understand the point of this answer.
    – cimmanon
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 0:53
  • 4
    Closing is not much of a preventative, period. It does suffice to allow correction and/or removal for many problematic questions though, @cimmanon. And in the case of duplicates, it's hard to estimate how many questions are avoided entirely by having the signposts, but given the number of views you have to assume the numbers are non-trivial. Heck, even the little pop-up suggestions in /questions/ask that are based on title searches dissuade a respectable number of questions. None of this really applies to requirement-dumps.
    – Shog9
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 2:06
  • 8
    I wonder if we need some sort of stats page for rate-limiting / blocking, @KevinB... There's an awful lot of misinformation out there, and I've had poor luck correcting it. The truth is, it's pretty damn hard to get blocked or even rate-limited - you can't just post a poorly-received question, you have to do it consistently and repeatedly. Which means it shouldn't even cross your mind when downvoting: unless the asker keeps posting poor questions, in the face of real-time feedback and warning, it's never going to really matter.
    – Shog9
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 2:10
  • 53
    I'm desperate waiting for Season 2 of Shog's answer... Season 1 built up to such a cliffhanger.
    – TylerH
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 5:21
  • 3
    Shog, does triage help? if not, you're probably not doing it right
    – gnat
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 6:45
  • 19
    The problem is that all of the previous close reasons used to close these types of questions miss the mark insofar as actually describing the reason we want to close them. Too localized isn't always bad. To broad isn't always bad. "Do my project for me", however, is always bad and unacceptable. meta.stackexchange.com/a/191140/222049 Having a clear, correct close reason for these questions may not help prevent them, but at least the asker walks away knowing exactly why their question got closed and not starting a debate about why the ostensible close reason doesn't apply to them.
    – J...
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 11:30
  • 2
    No, you're seeing the whole picture @Kevin: asking a big ol' pile of questions no one cares about is the problem. Folks fixate on the minority that get downvoted (or occasionally the minority that get upvoted in that perverse way that people do), but ultimately what kills a site like Stack Overflow isn't too much suck it's too much meh: signing on to find nothing interesting and just walking away.
    – Shog9
    Commented Oct 29, 2015 at 1:47
  • 5
    I think this is both social and technical problem, pretty much like spam. You don't fight spam by socially adapting spammers; only social aspect in there is helping users determine what is not spam. Same approach would work here: keep triaged questions visible only to reviewers and push them to close queue after a while if nobody picks "looks ok / need improvement"
    – gnat
    Commented Oct 29, 2015 at 5:56
166

To riff on Shog9's answer, what if we didn't look at close votes as the way to stop terrible questions like this? What else could we do?

James presented an interesting proposal on Meta.SE last year: what if we automatically closed any question that got below a net score of -5? Give something like that a generic close reason (from the Community user) of

This question does not meet the quality standards of this site, as judged by the community.

and stop trying to shove things we know to be lazy or terrible into unsuitable boxes.

The current close reasons are largely about whether or not something fits the scope of the site. This would create an additional dimension of whether or not something is of sufficient quality to belong here.

I wrote a longer argument for this in my answer there, but something like this would require the same number of votes as voting to close. It would broaden the class of people who could have a hand in closing questions, but is that a bad thing? I don't know. As it would be based on a net score, upvotes by those who think a question had quality would offset downvotes, so this wouldn't impact reasonable questions.

It certainly would make it faster and easier to process the content I feel we should be focusing moderation efforts on: the worst of the trash coming in every day. There is too much "meh" content clogging up the close vote queue, and so much time wasted on Meta debating whether this highly voted question or that one should be closed for one reason or another.

What if we refocused close votes on the old definition of off topic (subject matter fit), and let votes take care of the rest?

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  • 31
    GG Reversal badge
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 4:19
  • 10
    Would questions closed for this reason automatically reopen if the score were to rise above -5 again?
    – TylerH
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 5:22
  • 3
    @TylerH Maybe require them to get to -3 or -2. Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 6:52
  • 16
    Are you aware that this is an identical solution to giving anyone with 125 rep access to close votes? Today you need 125 rep to down vote but 3000 rep to close vote.
    – Lundin
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 7:20
  • 17
    @Lundin This isn't quite the same as reducing the close-vote requirement to 125 rep. Probably the most obvious difference is that each downvote can be counteracted by an upvote, given by someone with as little as 15 rep (so there no privilege symmetry as in close/reopen). You're right that it gives "close-votes-lite" to lower rep users, which is somewhat similar to the "delete-votes-lite" given to lower rep users in the review queues.
    – user2361699
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 8:24
  • 30
    I dislike this because sometimes a downvote with a comment is a useful thing. I've had instances where I got someone to improve something by using that combo. It also puts rep points into a tough position because people will upvote -4 questions just to keep them from being locked, meaning that people could gain rep just for having a question teetering on the brink of closure. I'm not sure that wouldn't be trading one problem for another...
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 12:13
  • 13
    @Machavity People already hand out sympathy upvotes. I like this as a stop gap measure as it gets more people helping. That said we need to do something to stop these question from even getting to the site in the first place. How to do that, I don't know but at least this should help. Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 12:18
  • 4
    @Lundin - This isn't identical. Standard close votes can be used even with upvoted questions, and we want to have a little barrier of trust for people casting those. They also are focused on what subject matter is appropriate for this site, which can take a little experience to understand. Everyone can recognize poor quality questions, though. There are good questions which are off topic, and terrible questions that are on topic. Let's let close votes handle scope and regular votes deal with question quality.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 14:04
  • 3
    @Becuzz - People already use sock puppets and voting rings all the time to try to work around question bans. The same people who would be impacted by this kind of question closure are the ones who already try to cheat the system in lazy ways to keep dumping questions on the site. My gut tells me this would not increase the frequency of this cheating much. We do have pretty good tools for catching this when it happens, and that just makes it worse for them when we do.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 14:30
  • 2
    Given Shog9's analysis on the original MSE post that "a whopping 88% of the answered, heavily-downvoted questions already had an answer by the time that 5th downvote arrived" would it also make sense to include some mechanism in this to make it more difficult to answer a downvoted question? Once the FGITW answers the question and the OP hastily accepts it, it's much harder for the roomba to clean up. Or, would the roomba's rules be adjusted such that closed-by-downvoting questions can get deleted? (To put it another way, are we just turning a closing problem into a deleting problem?)
    – theB
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 14:50
  • 4
    @Machavity What if negative-scoring questions couldn't receive positive net rep?
    – aebabis
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 15:58
  • 2
    I think this is a good balance because a majority of these types of questions come from new users, and taking this approach would allow the metric to be lenient to users who have asked well received questions in the past while still being strict on new users who ask questions that reach -5.
    – Travis J
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 19:07
  • 3
    I don't think this would really do much. How often do you see a question now with a score < -5, outside of questions affected by the meta effect or outright spam or blatantly off-topic questions which get closed or deleted in short order anyway?
    – Ajedi32
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 19:36
  • 12
    @Ajedi32: A lot of people don't bother downvoting because it has so little apparent effect. (It only takes away one rep, and a single sympathy upvote is enough to undo the effect of five downvotes.) I know I started downvoting more when I realized that downvotes factor into question bans. I suspect that, if this suggestion was implemented, we'd see a lot more downvotes on bad questions. Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 20:16
  • 4
    @IlmariKaronen Takes away 2 rep points; an upvote gives +5 on questions; the ratio is 2.5, not 5.
    – user3717023
    Commented Oct 28, 2015 at 3:05
29

What exactly is wrong with the "How to assign the same field value to several records in SQLite" question, other than the title doesn't seem to match the body?

  • Well-written? Check.
  • Clearly specified? Seems to be.
  • In scope for the site? It's a question about a programming problem, and is not a poll, recommendation or ad.
  • Is specific enough to be answerable without writing a book? Check.

Most of the bad questions I see on Stack Overflow fail on most or all of these points; the vast majority of them can be closed as either "Unclear What you are Asking," or "Too Broad."

"Insufficient effort" has never been a valid close reason on Stack Overflow. The kinds of insufficient efforts that make a question unanswerable also make it closeable under the current crop of close reasons, and that includes the Help Vampire and Chameleon questions (Too Broad). Those are the kinds of questions you should be targeting, not the answerable ones.

"How do I" questions are often the ones that are most useful to others; don't dismiss them out of hand just because you think the OP hasn't "demonstrated sufficient effort at solving the problem himself."

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  • 13
    Title doesn't match body, ya say? CLOSE AS UNCLEAR
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 6:25
  • 13
    Title doesn't match body? Check. Requirements-dump? Check. Suggested solution shows fundamental misunderstanding of SQL basics? Check. Won't need to write a long tutorial on update queries? No, not at all. If the misunderstanding is so fundamental to begin, the user will need to go back to SQL basics. Granted, someone on SO may pity him and write the entire thing for him for free (out of frustration of watching him spinning his wheels), but that only means that next week, that same anonymous user will delete his previous question and ask us to solve an entirely new Elance requirements-dump. Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 9:26
  • 5
    Yay, I'm being ripped in half here. I see and agree with all points being made, and they conflict quite a bit. Keeping it neutral: I don't see how utterly well-intentioned but misinformed people are going to have a chance of producing a question that is helpful to other people, on the basis that it is created out of being misinformed. As such I'd say such questions need to be gracefully put down. But what "graceful" is, I'm not sure. Just closing doesn't make any progress, the OP is still going to be misinformed as ever. I'm also of the mind that the OP must have the chance to see the light.
    – Gimby
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 9:38
  • @Gimby, That is why I voted to close the question as off-topic and provided a long custom explanation as a comment. I'm not sure if my comment was graceful, but hopefully the effort I made will be construed as respectful and possibly helpful to the asker. stackoverflow.com/questions/33355790/… Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 11:14
  • 13
    "Insufficient effort" has never been a valid close reason on Stack Overflow. Thank you. I've observed that sometimes when people don't feel bothered to answer a question they then scramble for a close reason to justify their dislike of it. This leads to nonsensical situations such as a question closed as unanswerable for being "too broad", but by the time it's closed it has already had complete and correct answers posted. Such closures accomplish nothing, yet the closers seem to enjoy doing it.
    – Boann
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 12:25
  • 5
    @Boann When someone closes as "too broad" the reason is not that the question is "unanswerable". The close reason says "There are either too many possible answers, or good answers would be too long for this format." The close reason is flat out saying that it is possible to answer the question. Moaning that a question that was closed as "too broad" is "answerable" is nothing but a strawman.
    – Louis
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 15:54
  • 10
    @Boann And yet the help center, SO's mission statement, and the site's culture, have all been very clear about the fact that there is an expectation of people asking questions to do their research, spent time and effort crafting a clear question, have attempted to solve the problem on their own, etc. The fact that it's never been a valid close reason despite the fact that it has always been clear that we don't want such questions here is precisely the problem. It's always been the case that we don't want such questions, so there should be a close reason for it.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 15:55
  • 6
    I was among the first batch of close-voters. I like finding diamonds in the rough and I read this question several times trying to figure out if there was enough "there" there to salvage and answer concisely. While I can definitely say the OP has a specific, practical problem, I'm equally certain the revision that I voted to close failed to define that problem in a way that was answerable. Not only was it under-specified - no sample data and barely any schema info - the desired result was very open to interpretation.
    – Air
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 16:30
  • I'm as annoyed as you are by the "I don't like this, think I'll VTC" camp but it was absolutely necessary in this case that the OP clarify and add to the question. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that this wasn't the case, unless you assumed the motivations of those users who voted to close were necessarily the same as of those who left and voted on misguided comments about insufficient effort, etc. Look how much more "there" there is to the question now that OP has revised it. (And to be honest, it's still borderline.)
    – Air
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 16:40
  • 3
    I would like to you see answer this question @RoberHarvey. Please put your time where your mouth is. Otherwise, please close this question as appropriate. Let's be honest, it will be closure. Even with clarification of requirements (all homework assignments are clear in their requirements for example) and a clear set of inputs with desired outputs this question is not a good question for Stack Overflow. Code for hire sites look like this question. It is essentially saying "I don't know how to do this, haven't even started, and I need you do it all for me." The answer is very involved.
    – Travis J
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 19:12
  • 2
    Also, can you get started on this one? stackoverflow.com/questions/33378222/… . Please make sure you edit it into shape while answering it. The requirements are very clear, and it is well written, but it just has a few formatting issues that need to read more like an itemized list. Don't forget to repeat this about 1,000 times a day, there are a lot of these types of questions.
    – Travis J
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 22:09
  • @RobertHarvey There's an almost infinitely large gulf between "how do I do this basic operation that 5 minutes of Googling would've told me how to" and "how do go about optimising this complex algorithm that I already have a working implementation of".
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Oct 30, 2015 at 14:32
29

If someone dumps their homework here, someone else answers, and then the question gets closed, you still made the homework-beggar's day. They will come back for more and also tell all their beggar friends.

So the only fail-proof solution is to prevent these kind of questions from entering the site in the first place. Those who post such questions are almost exclusively low rep (<50) users.

The radical solution, which would solve the problem 100% and drastically improve the quality of SO, would be if all low rep users' questions had to be reviewed and approved before even entering the site.

Not only would this root out all homework begging, but also other questions of various poor quality. A poorly made question can get passed back to the poster and have them fix it themselves. If they can't be bothered to do that, they won't get any answers either.

There is only one problem with this, and it is not a small one, namely the vast review effort involved.

I don't believe it is a problem that can't be solved though. We could open up access to this review queue to lets say 200 rep users. We could reduce the number of reviews for consensus to 3 or even 1. We could allow more than 20 reviews per user, per day. Initially restrict the reviews to just address first time questions. Etc.

It would be an interesting experiment, but I think someone with access to all statistics would have to calculate if the idea is at all feasible. How many reviews per day would be needed?

This work effort has to be compared with how much moderator effort the community currently spends today on close voting, flagging, editing, edit reviewing, searching for duplicates etc, as a lot of this work effort would instead get moved into this low rep user question review.

Something radical such as this proposal has to be done, because we are steadily losing the high rep users with actual knowledge, in favour of low rep homework beggars. Decide what kind of people you want your community to consist of.

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  • I see one issue with this. If we make this a review queue where the standard action is looks okay put it on the site then I feel that robo reviewers will allow a good chunk of bad material on the site. Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 12:26
  • @NathanOliver Agreed, but the same problem exists with all the other review queues too, but ways of preventing robo-reviewers is another topic. It seems fairly easy to generate review audits for this particular review queue though. Just have the audit grab any random post of the past which was closed and had more than x down votes.
    – Lundin
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 12:30
  • Oh I don't doubt we could put things in place to help. I am just saying that it wont be as effective and stuff will still get through. It is definitely worth a try. Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 12:36
  • 1
    @NathanOliver The present ways of dealing with crap would still be there of course. So we'd have to close vote, down vote etc when something slips through. Except the need for such measures should be far less frequent.
    – Lundin
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 12:38
  • 5
    And we can use the current system for indications of which of the new reviews are crap, which can be leveraged to find reviewers which are bad. Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 12:39
  • 3
    An interesting thought: are the people answering these questions also generally low rep? If so, rather than a review queue (which users actively have to click through to), could questions from users with <X rep be hidden from users <Y rep, until they have been upvoted to >Z net score (by more experienced users, who might not be able to answer the question, but could "review" it).
    – IMSoP
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 14:30
  • Either that, or just make the review queues look less isolated from the question lists - if I click on one of my "favourite tags", I currently get no call to action to rescue questions with that tag from a review queue.
    – IMSoP
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 14:32
  • 2
    @IMSoP I don't think there is any particular pattern among those who reply to such questions. I think we should rather deal with the source of the problem, which is the questions not the answers.
    – Lundin
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 14:39
  • Those high-rep users, though certainly more valuable than even non-homework-begging low rep users, are not immortal. There has to be a mechanism by which interested parties can start participating, and the bar to entry cannot be set too high. Otherwise we risk the wikipedia scenario. Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 14:41
  • @JaredSmith Demanding that new users ask on-topic questions and don't dump a copy/paste of their homework assignment is setting the bar too high?
    – Lundin
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 14:47
  • You mean, like the H&I + Triage queues? only hide them until they get through? how long does it take a question to get through that queue on average? What would be the rep cutoff?
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 14:51
  • @Lundin Not trying to debate the facts of the problem, nor am I disagreeing with the opinion that you are implicitly stating. Just saying that we cannot blindly privilege the existing high rep users at the expense of never creating new ones. Unless they suddenly become immortal. But you could be right nonetheless, IIRC I had a number of upvoted answers to questions before I ever asked one. Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 14:56
  • 2
    I never use the H&I or Triage queues, so i have no idea how effective they are/have been. (which i think is a downside to the queues, they only get viewed by a small subset of users.)
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 15:01
  • 3
    @KevinB My proposal would rather be remaking the "first post" review queue so that it hits before a question is allowed on the site, rather than after it has been posted. Could also be made to apply to answers as well as questions (like "first post" does, currently). Btw it seems fairly clear to me that the "first post" review queue as it currently stands, is completely useless.
    – Lundin
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 15:36
  • 1
    This isn't to say I disagree, just that I think for something like this to be used we would need more. I am not sure what "more" would be, and perhaps you have an idea that you can expand on this answer with? Also for consideration: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/252061/…
    – Travis J
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 19:22
5

I think @Bonan is right that it is unclear to new users that "Too Broad" close reason actually does apply to "gimme teh codez" questions and that the text of the close reason should be updated to indicate that this is, in fact, part of the definition of too broad. What I think @TravisJ was hinting at in his question is that a new user will post something like:

Hi, how can I sort a linked list in C++?

The question will then get closed (rightfully) as too broad, which will result in the OP, misunderstanding the real reason that their question was closed as too broad, editing their question into something like:

Hi, how can I sort a linked list in ascending numeric order in C++? The linked list must be a singly linked list of integers. The program must accept from 1-20 integers through standard input, delimited by carriage returns, and output the result to standard output. The Standard Template Library (STL) must not be used. It must behave according to the following rules for the following special cases.... If a number with a decimal point or a number that is out of the range of an integer is entered, round the number to the nearest integer. If non-numeric data is entered, display an appropriate message to the user and request the information again. The program must have inline documentation according to the following style guide (link)....

The OP will then end up thoroughly confused as to why his question is still too broad. After all, isn't the second question much more specific as to what he wants and much closer to the gold standard of "gimme teh codez" requests, the Software Requirements Specification (SRS)?

3
  • In my opinion, your second hypothetical question is not too broad. You could update the "too broad" close reason to "too broad or plain SRS", but these are in my opinion two very different reasons for closing. I disagree with OP and you, but that's just me.
    – anatolyg
    Commented Oct 8, 2018 at 9:33
  • The problem with most of these questions isn't simply having a precise specification; the problem is the amount of functionality to implement. Even for things that would comfortably fit in a Stack Overflow answer, the problem is generally that OP has not attempted to break the problem down into steps and figured out what is actually difficult. The question is "too broad" because it is "multiple questions in one" - one question each about the steps that OP hasn't yet identified. Commented May 25, 2022 at 18:36
  • "Implement this algorithm" is going to be too broad because an algorithm is a flowchart through various steps, and the implementation is translation of those steps into code. For each individual step, it usually either isn't the source of OP's difficulty, or could be easily researched. The rare exceptions are where we get acceptable "easy" questions for the site. Commented May 25, 2022 at 18:38
3

TLDR

The close reasons we already have are sufficient to close questions that need to be closed.


The problem with a close reason for these types of questions is that there's actually two types of questions that fall into this category:

How do I do X questions that are not duplicates and well written, and how can I build XYZ questions that are well written (and are never duplicates).

How can i build XYZ questions are always "too broad". They're asking for us to build an entire program. Close as too broad.

That leaves How do I do X, which isn't too broad unless it's worded as a how do I do X but is really a how do I build XYZ, which again, is already covered by too broad.

What your close reason boils down to is if the question doesn't have any attempted solution, the question is off topic. I don't think 'How do i do X' questions should be closed unless they are duplicates, unclear, or of very low quality such that the community can't edit it into shape. Downvotes on the other hand are perfect for this use case. You can vote to show your opinion on how well written the question is, and how useful knowing how to do X would be to the community.

3
  • Perhaps the phrasing of the "too broad" closure reason could be updated to make it clear that "give me teh codez" questions fall into this category?
    – cimmanon
    Commented Oct 29, 2015 at 14:54
  • 1
    That's my point. I don't think they should fall into this category.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 29, 2015 at 14:54
  • I'd rather focus efforts on getting the voting system used properly which would alleviate this problem. But that's much easier said than done.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 29, 2015 at 14:56
-3

I propose that we make the "Too Broad" close reason more explicit in covering these types of questions so that experienced users can have clearer guidance on using this close reason.

Your question would receive too many long answers, would require users to create all the code, or write a tutorial. Please add details to narrow the answer set or to isolate an issue that can be answered in a few paragraphs.

What worries me is that whatever wording is used for the close reason, there will be collateral damage due to gradual definition creep. "Too broad" was introduced with a fairly narrow definition because previously, broad questions were closed as "not a real question". That close reason had a very broad definition ("This question is ambiguous, vague, incomplete, overly broad, or rhetorical and cannot be reasonably answered in its current form"), which was often misunderstood and misused.

I fear that your proposed "more explicit" wording could make more mess than it cleans up: The phrase "require users to create all the code" seems ripe for misapplication against many perfectly answerable questions, neither too broad nor too localized, that ask for some useful coding technique.

Anything that makes questions easier to close increases collateral damage, so the change had better be really worth it.

if it is easier for a user to post an answer in only 5 minutes as opposed to reading 30 minutes of past discussion on the topic, they more than likely will post an answer and move on

If they can post an answer in 5 minutes then it is clearly not "too broad" to answer. Rather than trying to make "too broad" "more explicit", it sounds like you want to expand its purpose so as to get the "too localized" close reason back.

If it were easier to close the question, then there would be none of these answers.

That's a bit optimistic. It's optimistic to expect that every eligible question in every tag will be closed; it's optimistic to expect that those that are closed will be closed before being answered; and it's optimistic to expect that those questions that are closed quickly will not receive help in comments anyway.

If you took it to the extreme you could start out every question on the site closed, and people would still try to post answers in comments.

I don't think closure is a good instrument for dealing with help vampires.

6
  • 25
    If they can post an answer in 5 minutes then it is clearly not "too broad" to answer. This is false. People love to posts incomplete answers to extremely broad questions. Someone asks for a detailed explanation of an entire high level concept and someone will post an answer with a two sentence summary of what that feature is there for, or just link to a tutorial somewhere else. Extremely broad questions often attract lots of answers quickly. What they don't attract is quality or complete answers.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 16:32
  • 1
    @Servy, I am actually one of those people sometimes. If I see that a question I can answer that might be closed/deleted before I have time to press the submit button, I press the submit button prematurely to make sure I am able to submit it. Once submitted, I can then edit my answer afterwards (even if the question is put on hold). And don't get me wrong, I don't do this all the time. 99% of the time, I usually agree with a close reason, and I won't attempt to answer it. Commented Oct 28, 2015 at 23:01
  • 10
    @StephanBranczyk That's very disappointing to hear.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 28, 2015 at 23:06
  • "I don't think closure is a good instrument for dealing with help vampires." Then what is?
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Oct 30, 2015 at 14:34
  • @IanKemp Leave the questions alone to be eaten by the roomba.
    – Boann
    Commented Oct 30, 2015 at 14:43
  • @IanKemp: Torches. Feathers. Pitchforks. Tar. And the meta lynch mob to deliver them.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jun 14, 2017 at 1:06

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