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Recently I ran across a particular question on Stack Overflow. Despite its being quite easy to answer, it has got no answer yet (and most likely won't, as questions older than a hour hardly receive any attention anymore). Besides that, the OP told me that he wants an answer from a professional developer. Although I've answered that there are no professionals around, but only enthusiasts available, it struck me right in the head: indeed we have quite a few professionals on the tag, but none of them came around in time. Why?

And it seems I have found the reason: it's the number of [awful quality] questions that prevents a professional from coming across the question in question.

Isn't that simple? There are literally thousands of questions like this ("I wrote only one column in SQL field list, why doesn't it return all other fields?!") or this (A silliest typo) one, which gets happily answered and accepted. This makes Stack Overflow different from other StackExchange network sites. This makes questions fall so fast that the OP doesn't have a chance to meet a professional.

Moreover, the overall quality of answers is pro rata to the number of questions as well. There are hundreds of weird answers nobody cares about, and for the very same reason, no professional comes across them to verify. Even more: having their time spent on silly questions, the professionals don't have time to write a good answer.
(The overall answer quality is another matter. I won't stop on it but it's indeed weird: if you spot a grammar mistake, you get +2 points. If you spot a logical nonsense, you get -1).

Okay, the usual meta-answer is "vote to close". I tried several times, all in vain. Yet I'll try it again:

The system doesn't work.

The current closure system doesn't work. And it is not the limited number of votes. It is the reputation system that encourages people to answer instead of vote. Of course, flagging also works in your imagination, but in reality it doesn't. Besides that, every time you mention silly questions, you get the usual meta-nursing: "these poor babies in the woods deserve an answer too! Don't you have a heart?", which makes every proposal just sink in a quicksand of coddling.
After all, even closed, the question still hangs around, polluting the site. This is the problem.

Okay, I have been accused many times of not proposing a solution, although I am already strongly convinced that none will be ever considered, because

  • before starting towards the solution, one has to comprehend the problem first (which is the problem for this honest meta site where there are fifteen hundred questions tagged with compared to just one hundred tagged with which clearly indicates the trends and interests of the community)
  • no change will be ever considered anyway. Traffic is the king, and while it flows, nobody cares about such trifle matters like answer quality.
  • the site authorities, who are dead afraid of the community and never trust it: there is always a fear that any given tool can be abused. So the obvious conclusion for any meaningful feature is: "better not to implement it at all. Or at least limit it enough to render it totally useless."

Here is how I see it:

The goal: to limit the number of [visible] questions to a sane amount.
The solution: There ought to be some sort of ghetto for all the too-localized questions. IF they generate so much precious traffic, if all these poor unsuspecting fellows require your nursing - all right, let them in. But - for the sake of all that's good - somewhere else!

It can be a different site where questions have to be moved after they get answered. Or some on-site mechanism that marks stupid questions and gets them out of the way. It doesn't have to be a closevote: a closed question still takes up space. It doesn't have to be deletion either (or, at least, it has to keep rep points for the answering enthusiasts) - that's the point.

"If you can't beat em, join em". Do not fight silly questions! It makes only frustration for both sides. Have them answered, all right, but just take them out of the way, in favor of real questions. As simple as that.

Imagine Stack Overflow having the [visible] traffic of, say, the English Language & Usage site. Just imagine this:

  • every [sane] question gets enough attention(!)
  • a long-sought professional, having his five spare minutes off an hour, will make himself a picture of all the questions that might interest him, at glance.

Yet there should be a mechanism that keeps the possibility for all the enthusiastic rep-hunters, who have nothing to do but hang around all day waiting for silly questions, to have their precious reputation points, and badges as well.

Why mark a silly question with the offensive "closed as an [implied] stupid question"? Why not answer it outright, making ALL the sides satisfied? Why not to make it this way:

  • have a poor noob get his silly answer
  • have all the rep hunters get their beloved reputation points
  • [to be implemented] have real questions get their professionals to answer

All you need is some special mark which will take all the [answered] too-localized questions out of the way. There could be a reputation cap for this kind of answer, too. We can make it not as desirable as a real question to answer. Well, make it the usual kindergarten way - make a special badge, something like "Marksman" for spotting 400 silly typos.

Exactly the same goes for the duplicated questions as well. It's not a secret for anyone that 99% of the questions asked are indeed duplicates. Yet the current system makes it easier and preferable to answer than to close. Again - why fight it? Get it answered all right and then cleared out of the way. The current system makes even closed questions hang in place, polluting the site.

Exactly the same goes for all the other not-a-real-questions like "I've got a bunch of code but have no idea why it doesn't work!". Mind you, even those have their devoted audience too. Some people eager to dig into other people's petty code. You'd say it belongs to code review. Theoretically - yes. In reality it doesn't work. These questions either get answered or closed but still hang in place.

In a more generalized way, there's two kinds of questions:

  • questions Stack Overflow was initially intended for. There cannot be more than a hundred per day, even under the most polluted tag.
  • urgent "run-time" kind of questions, which help only the OP and only at the moment.

Although the second kind theoretically is not welcome on the site, it dominates all the way. Something has to be done with it. But not via dumb oppression; via smart handling.

I am not quite sure of the implementation details. This is why this question is tagged with . However, the immediate solution is not the the point of this post. The problem has to be stated and understood by people first.

The closure system worked when
trees were green and traffic low.
But times, they are change-in'
a-changin', you know.

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    Do you mind starting with a tl;dr in the future? Most people will start reading this rant and never reach the punchline.
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 14:04
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    "Of course, flogging as well..." I completely agree! Let's ditch the question bans and start flogging the poor question askers! That should be enough to keep them at bay! Spammers too!
    – George Mitchell
    Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 14:06
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    I disagree with everything you've said but +1 for stating up front that this is a rant. How do we feel about a rant tag? Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 14:07
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    The overall tone of this post is not constructive at all. You should address that if you want this to be taken seriously.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 14:09
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    I know already it won't with any tone. Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 14:12
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    @YourCommonSense Then why waste people's time posting it at all, and why intentionally make a post that's dramatically less likely to be taken seriously? If you want it to fail then it will, and you'll only have yourself to blame, not the system.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 14:13
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    To add to what @Servy said - if you dropped the rant and came to the problem directly, offering the solution (and not asserting things like "the system is broken", when you are talking about a specific part of the system, for instance), you would have gotten a better reception.
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 14:18
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    You raise a lot of good points… including the one that nothing’s going to happen. :(
    – Ry- Mod
    Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 14:33
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    This is something we (the community team) have talked about, mostly in the context of making /review smarter when it comes to what you're shown to review. The Colonel made a few good points in this rant, and I'm glad he finally got it into words.
    – user50049
    Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 14:36
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    I've made a chart showing the number of questions per month. Could perhaps be useful for this discussion. Don't mind the labels too much, I'm not an Excel wizard.
    – user247702
    Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 11:00
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    I disagree with one of your main premises: I'm a professional developer and I have plenty of time to sit around and read silly questions, and have enough left over to write out decent answers. Furthermore, if so many of these questions are novice level - and you're right, the bulk of new questions are - why do they need attention from a professional? No reason an enthusiast couldn't answer them. Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 13:46
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    @EsotericScreenName your case is rather exceptional than common. In general a professional has his job to do. Speaking of the flow, yes - that's what I am talking about - a hundred of simple questions make single good one too hard to find. Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 14:27
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    @DImension10AbhimanyuPS - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Too_long;_didn't_read - essentially a summary of the post, normally at the top.
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 15:24
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    The entirety of this question is words taken from my mouth. I couldn't agree more!
    – Kuba Ober
    Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 16:47
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    "closed as a stupid question" — I frequently wish that close option was actually available. Closing due to lack of a minimum understanding of the problem being solved always strikes me as far too polite. Commented Dec 10, 2013 at 10:13

16 Answers 16

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I have to say that I do sympathize with the overall sentiment of this post. This is a genuine problem, and I don't really know what the solution is, but I do have a fair idea why it is happening.

Stack Overflow has two (somewhat opposing) goals:

  1. To get people quick answers to their programming questions, and
  2. To serve as a repository for useful programming knowledge.

Most of the veterans here would probably agree with me that there should be a greater emphasis on the second goal, which requires questions of a more general nature, and answers that are more broadly applicable to a greater number of programming people.

So why doesn't this happen more regularly? In the early days of Stack Overflow, there were mostly semi-professional and professional programmers on the site. Most of the participants could be counted on to behave in a professional manner and exhibit some intellectual curiosity, and they all understood what the site was about, and what Stack Overflow was trying to accomplish.

Then the avalanche of newbies came.

The problem, in a nutshell, is this: vague, obscure, under-specified questions from people who lack basic knowledge of their craft.

And it's our fault.

You heard me. We put up fences like "What have you tried," discourage canonical questions, and remove the "Too Localized" close reason. We pander to all manner of questions that require extended investigation of the OP's highly-specific problem, and encourage people to crowdsource their impossible problems. We're pushing the entire site towards being a troubleshooting tool, not a knowledge repository.

Many of the new users to Stack Overflow do not have the same goals that the professionals do. All they want is to solve their problem, and many of them want this without having done the basic research necessary to make their question viable. They have no interest in making the title of their question searchable, or making their question interesting to others.

Oh, sure, we have close reasons that are supposed to prevent this, like "questions asking for code must demonstrate a minimal knowledge of the subject matter," or "questions about problems with code must describe the problem and include valid code to reproduce it." But what I think we're not saying more often is "y'know, you really ought to show some self-initiative and read a book or two first before coming here, so that you have at least some fundamental knowledge."

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    Yep. Is it fixable?
    – Ry- Mod
    Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 16:28
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    see also en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September - I was a major Usenet user (even wrote a book on it) but I wandered away in the mid 90s. The phenomenon is real and the influx is unteachable. So far SO has implemented a process that resists the worst of it. Is it enough? Could we do more? Good questions, but not - I think - this question. Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 16:52
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    @minitech it is. I don't know how but I positively sure I know what to do. "Bad" questions have to be answered and then removed. This will satisfy all the three parties: "new users", "answer enthusiasts" and "professionals". It is very important to admit that these bad quality questions is the source of the life on the site and source of good questions as well, as ore is a source for gold nuggets. So, bad questions shouldn't be cut off but handled. There should be some sort of mark, to designate one of two kinds Robert stated. And then a question have to be treated accordingly. Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 16:53
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    @YourCommonSense That strategy only encourages even more poor quality questions, since they're likely to be answered, further increasing the flood. As it is many users learn after a question or two that poor quality questions aren't welcome here, and those that ignore the warnings get q-banned after just a few more. If these people are encouraged to keep posting questions day after day it will likely be beyond the curating power of the active users to filter out the quality questions and remove the cruft, once answered. Also, what do you do with poor quality unanswered questions?
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 17:02
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    @Servy sadly, but there is a truth in your words. Well, okay, we can keep the policy the same. Not attracting lazy questions and having bad question owners warned and banned as well. Yet there should be some sort of cleaning mechanism for ones that managed to get an answer anyway. Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 17:18
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    A downvote considered to be an unfriendly action. But nobody wants to be unfriendly, save for the outstanding exceptional cases - this is how its currently works. So, voting won't work either. Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 17:21
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    @Servy Well, my point is as follows: Real experts don't have much spare time to hang around. What we have is a lot of eager enthusiasts. Who partially have desire for sharing and partially for rep points. And they surely will answer anything that moves. Ugh well. Another condition to judge: time to answer. Under PHP tag sometimes it takes less than a minute to get a half-dozen answers. One can tell for sure that question is either a duplicate or a too localized one without looking at it. Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 17:25
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    Another idea I had (and not only I) is a timeout which will allow a closure but won't allow an answer. I've no idea if it fired or not. Though if supported by some rep points, it could have worked. Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 17:29
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    The PHP tag is in desperate need of experts who can show people the right way of doing things. The Internet is already flooded with posts explaining the wrong ways to do it.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 17:35
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    @Servy honestly, I were thinking of a mere tag, something like [another-pair-of-eyes] - a tag to legitimize too localized questions. But reading your and Robert's comments I become not so sure I want it anymore - indeed it can make the avalanche even stronger. Well, there should be a push from another side - a penalty for answering a non-welcome questions. Too greedy to answer a deliberately too localized one? Lose all the rep you snatched from the answer and get -10 on top of it if question gets closed. Not sure if works though. At least it worth to give it try. Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 9:46
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    It certainly corrupts people when they can get a lot of rep answering knowingly offtopic question. Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 9:49
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    We're pushing the entire site towards being a troubleshooting tool, not a knowledge repository. that's a +1. this reversed should be a welcome message for a new user!
    – user221081
    Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 10:40
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    @mehow yeah, I take it as a key point of the whole answer (and, in a way, of my question too). Free online troubleshooting tool. I've seen many comments like "I am asking for help which is a purpose of this site - so, don't tell me my question is offtopic" Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 11:19
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    yea exactly people bypassing the rules we created. one day i hired someone to do a job and told them specifically im paying £500 to get it done but I think it shouldnt take longer than 8 hours. The guy took his time (big time) and the job took him 12+ hours where he comes back to me saying oh you said you paying £500 for 8 hours, so how much are you going to pay for 12 now? i was like wtf? and this is exactly what happens here but in a different context. Give them a finger and they will bite your whole hand off. We change the site to be a better fit for newbies but then we can't handle it
    – user221081
    Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 11:29
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    "y'know, you really ought to show some self-initiative and read a book or two first before coming here" -- as a participant in the PHP tag, I can say this has become a mantra.
    – Dan Lugg
    Commented Nov 8, 2013 at 20:55
83

There's been a lot of good discussion here already, so I'm going to try to just address a few things that I think have been overlooked...

First off: Stack Overflow has never been the sort of site you're yearning for.

  • Purely in terms of questions asked, Stack Overflow has been bigger than EL&U since very early in the private beta. When I signed on for the first time on August 9, 2008 it was already getting more questions per day than EL&U gets now. By the time it was opened up to the general public, it was already getting more questions than Super User gets today, and that number increased dramatically with the occurrence of the miracle. It was possible to stay informed of most questions in a particular tag, but... Well, I had a link to a tag-search query saved in my browser toolbar that I would click, obsessively, throughout the day in order to accomplish this. After a few months of this, even that became impractical.

  • The site has never been limited to "high brow" questions. My oldest still-visible answer is on a question that, if asked today, would probably be dumped on by folks like yourself for being too specific to the asker's website, not showing any code, etc. There were tons of these, even very early on.

  • The site wasn't even particularly useful for a good 6-9 months (in my opinion). Oh, it was fun - there were novel questions to answer, idle discussions and polls to waste time in, and plenty of interesting answers to read - but it took a fair bit of growth before it reached the scale where, if I had a specific problem I was working on, I was likely to find the answer on SO - or even someone with expertise in the area who might answer such a question. Building a knowledge base for a topic as broad and deep as "all programming tasks in any language on every platform, ever" is not the sort of task that lends itself to a small group of people pitching in in their spare time. I remember the first time I was researching a problem and saw relevant topics on Stack Overflow popping up in the search results - it was in 2009, and suddenly I thought, "Hey - this might actually work".


All that being said, I understand where you're coming from. See, the problem with a community as large as that on Stack Overflow is... It isn't really a community anymore. You can't have a cohesive group with 2.4 million people in it; that just doesn't happen. Communities are built around a few people talking to a few other people, building a shared understanding that unites them - you simply don't get that much overlap in a group this large. So as the group grows, it branches and subdivides, repeatedly, as-needed to preserve cohesive communities within (or breaking off from) the larger whole. On Stack Exchange, you can observe this in a few different forms:

  • Folks leaving and going to other sites. Those who were here for open-ended discussions left for Reddit, HackerNews, Quora, and others.

  • The creation of new sites on tangential topics. There are 106 sites making up Stack Exchange now, most of them fairly small, and nearly all of them started at least in part by folks who began on Stack Overflow.

  • Tag-specific cultures. While there is certainly a lot of overlap between different tags, taken as groups the folks answering PHP questions are not the same as the folks answering C++ questions or C# questions or R questions or Android questions. And I'm not talking about programming knowledge or day jobs. Each subgroup has different attitudes and strategies, and they may interact with the site in very different ways.

If you're thinking to yourself, "But I don't want to live in a PHP ghetto, I want to be a member of Stack Overflow!" well, I hear ya. But drinking from the firehose every day will wear you out in no time flat. I had to take a pretty long break from the network at one point, and when I came back it was to participate on a much smaller site. Why? Because by the end I was spending most of my time on SO looking at the worst of the worst questions, and it was becoming incredibly demoralizing: it ruined my attitude toward even the folks who were trying to do a good job, and gave me a fairly negative impression of the site as a whole. When features I wanted - needed - weren't implemented, and tools I used were taken away, I felt crushed. Because that's what happens when you try to play Atlas.


So what's to be done then? Well...

  • If you really want a small, EL&U sized site with (on average) more interesting questions, check out Programmers. Forget about its long-abandoned "fluffy question" past; it's actually pretty close to what you're after, and the community there is fairly hard-core about keeping it that way. While an even smaller site, Code Review is another break-off site that focuses specifically on improvements to already-working code - this also tends to result in a somewhat better average quality level, and could be a welcome diversion from the "fix my code" questions you're frustrated with.

  • If you just want to see decent questions that've been overlooked, use search! It's become quite powerful, and can easily show you reasonable, unanswered, overlooked questions in your tag or tags of choice. I'm barely scratching the surface with that query, but there are all sorts of nobs to turn that'll handily give you as many or as few questions as you might wish for.

  • If it's all just too discouraging, take a break! I find Stack Overflow a lot more interesting when I'm not buried knee-deep in close-flagged posts every day. If it's something you want to love, don't spend your time fixated on the worst aspects of it - if that means just walking away entirely for a month or two in order to break some harmful habits, so be it.

There's no denying, at its current scale Stack Overflow faces some incredible challenges - but it also holds an incredible amount of potential for good because of that scale. Let's do our best to meet the former without giving up on the latter...

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    +1 for pimping P.SE, all the reasons this question scares up are the same ones I had when I stumbled across P.SE, and why I basically setup shop there and stopped participating in SO.
    – Jimmy Hoffa
    Commented Sep 27, 2013 at 17:50
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    I wish I were that selfish in my concerns as you picture me. Thanks for trying anyway. Commented Sep 27, 2013 at 21:00
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    It's not really about being selfish, @Your; it's about focusing your efforts on areas where they'll do the most good. You're not gonna turn SO into an EL&U-sized site; heck, you're not gonna turn your corner of SO into an EL&U-sized site. And you wouldn't want to anyway - if anything, EL&U gets a higher percentage of crap than SO does, but with the lower volume the folks answering are left fighting over scraps. You want a site where even the worst questions get answered, because there's nothing else to do? I doubt it. Wanna make a difference? Reward the folks who ask questions you like.
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 27, 2013 at 21:56
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    Your answer makes me want to give P.SE another shot. Commented Sep 27, 2013 at 22:25
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    It is actually about long and windy excuse for the refusal of improving the service even a bit. I could stand such a position but you could have made it dramatically shorter, two words would be enough. Commented Sep 29, 2013 at 8:56
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    That opens up a huge can of worms, @gnat. It's possible to mitigate a lot of the false positives by taking length, content, and as you suggest time spent writing into consideration - but this gets complicated in a hurry.
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 30, 2013 at 15:00
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    I said right at the top that I wasn't going to cover the stuff that other answers have already addressed adequately, @Your. I did cover several options close to your stated goals that folks have worked pretty hard on; if you don't like them, then you may have to accept that you're asking for a unicorn and all we have are rhinos.
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 30, 2013 at 15:05
  • this might be so... or not, hard to tell without more thinking and SEDE digging. Anyway this is only a rough idea, I haven't yet chewed it thoroughly. Hopefully will get back to this after I am done with link-only answers cleanup at Programmers, ie in about 1-1,5 months from now
    – gnat
    Commented Sep 30, 2013 at 15:10
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It is all nice and well to propose walling off questions that are off topic.

Still requires identifying them, which you have not tackled at all. Currently, close votes are how we do identify them and any solution you propose would need to be fairly resistant to false negatives.

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    Getting through the rant part of his question, it seems like he's saying that we're not giving enough weight to janitorial work, and giving too much weight to answering. People answer because they have incentives to, they don't clean up enough because there is no incentive to. I have no idea how to fix this either, except to head back to the 'Other' flag queue.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 14:09
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    That's as simple as egg: just offer a bounty. Currently someone who decides to close a duplicate gets nothing but a headache. But as soon as you offer some small points for cleaning, hordes will be on duty. It works. I've seen many accounts with 1000s of rep gained on getting +2 from editing answers only Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 14:11
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    @YourCommonSense - hordes will indeed descend on questions. But then, we will end up with the opposite issue. The zeal to find duplicates will cause closure of many questions that are not duplicates.
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 14:12
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    yeah... I like the idea of incentivizing janitory work Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 14:12
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    @Oded Are you sure about that? I think it's worth trying. Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 14:13
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    I see it this way: It's just impossible to have thousands unique programming questions every day. So, 99% of questions are duplicates. Just by design. So, they have to be closed (or better wiped). It will give space for the real questions. Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 14:15
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    @JanDvorak - I worry that this would create more problems than it would solve.
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 14:16
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    @YourCommonSense No, it's not impossible to have thousands of unique questions ever day. Many of them may be of low quality, but not all low quality questions are duplicates. I also strongly disagree that 99% would be duplicates. There are plenty, sure, but not nearly that many.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 14:26
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    @YourCommonSense We do have the bounty that you speak of via /review, and we're actively looking at how we can put more relevant questions for closure and quality checking in front of people based on their tags, without it being too expensive performance-wise. While this was quite a rant, you do bring up interesting problems that are very difficult to deal with.
    – user50049
    Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 14:34
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    @TimPost +15 from the OP for spotting the typo is more than you can offer and takes much less trouble. As long as current status quo remains, questions will be answered, not flagged. However, I am talking not of the existing tools like voting or review tools but of something different. I am for answering any question. But after getting answer it have to be judged by the community for one simple criterion: if this question will be helpful for someone else or not. if not - it have to be taken away. Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 14:43
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    @YourCommonSense You've definitely given me something to think about. I want to dig into the anonymous feedback that we receive before I write a proper answer here. Thanks again for finally getting this down into words, it's good to see you here.
    – user50049
    Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 16:18
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    To be clear, what he's talking about are questions that you metaphorically trip over through searching until you find the one that actually helps. That's not to say that these very 'me' specific questions won't ever be useful to someone, but they can and do get in the way of finding more helpful content, at least in certain tags (think PHP / Android / IOS). It's something I've been thinking about for a while, as have the folks that curate the PHP tag.
    – user50049
    Commented Sep 25, 2013 at 16:21
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    @TimPost not sure of whom you are talking about, but speaking of me, I am rather after the, so to say, "run-time" questions, seeing them in progress. I happen to dwell in several second-rate tags only, and I see the questions coming in continuous progress, not in random spots. What I see is an endless current of either duplicated or too localized questions that gets answered, and some real good questions that require either special knowledge or certain experience or time spent investigating the problem - and these latter questions often get no proper answer at all. Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 9:52
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    @YourCommonSense: "It's just impossible to have thousands unique programming questions every day." I think it's akin to the perhaps common (mis)belief that there's very many English sentences that repeat everywhere. Quite to the contrary, there's a relatively insignificant fraction of the overall number of English sentences that are ever written more than once. Same applies to programming questions: you'd think there can't be so many of them, but yet, there are. Just as there's infinite supply of typo questions, there's infinite supply of the other reasonable ones as well.
    – Kuba Ober
    Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 17:02
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    Related link to Kuba's last comment
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 17:04
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This is absolutely a problem. I have a lot of difficulty finding questions that I feel are worth answering.

I agree that the closure system simply can't keep up with the volume of dross (see all the "Eeek! My close queue is too big!" meta questions), and it offers little to no mechanism for moderating novice level questions which are low quality but not without value.

I'll take a stab at summarizing the main points raised in the question; please correct if I've missed or misinterpreted something.

  • Quality questions get buried under the volume of poor questions.
  • Quality answers are hard to come by, because the proportion of highly knowledgeable users is low.
  • Knowledgeable users are likely to become frustrated and discouraged by the sheer volume of poor questions.
  • Non-knowledgeable users receive enough positive feedback to encourage them to participate more, even if their contributions are of lower quality.
  • There are either no or insufficient mechanisms in place to manage the other problems.

These are issues which any mass consumable support resource will encounter once it reaches some popularity threshold. I really have no ideas for a true solution. Lots of things could be done to address the symptoms: dole out more close votes, better algorithms to identify poor questions, stricter question bans, etc. None of these attack the root of the problem, and many of them have undesirable side effects.

The goal: to limit the number of [visible] questions to sane amount.

The solution: There ought to be some sort of ghetto for all the too localized questions.... But - for all the goodness sake - somewhere else!

StackOverflow is that ghetto.

It's reached sufficient critical mass such that these problems will likely never go away. I'm not suggesting that nobody should attempt to improve things, but we should be honest with ourselves about the situation. Is there anything that can be done beyond damage control? Of course, good management of the issue goes a very long way, and the system in place does a great job when considering the scale it has to cope with. Additionally, it's not all bad: the sheer volume makes it a great data repository and sandbox for online crowd control methods.

Despite some of what I've just written, I'll pitch an idea which attempts to achieve the stated (and implicit) goals directly. Bear in mind, I'm suggesting this for the sake of argument only, in an attempt to approach this from another angle and provide food for thought about the underlying problems and motivations affecting the community. I am highly doubtful that this is a good idea and am not seriously suggesting it be implemented.

Quite simply, implement the converse of sectus' answer. Create a new site, say Experts.StackOverflow.com. Rather than attempting to prune poor questions from SO, prune excellent ones, as this is much more scalable.

Experts would necessarily be a gated community, with some kind of bar to meet before participation is allowed, though everyone would be able to read the content. For example, a user would gain Experts permissions after achieving, on StackOverflow, X reputation, Y amount of time on the site, and Z collection of badges. Or, say, require N good quality posts, determined algorithmically, or even a human vetted nomination system. The details don't matter. Having a proven track record on SO ensures a certain quality of user, meaning most of the enumerated problems won't occur or will be severely reduced.

"Experts" carries a positive connotation; nobody would want their question migrated to Novices, but users would get an ego boost seeing it get migrated to Experts. However, there would likely be an influx of meta questions soliciting access and complaining about the barriers to entry.

The biggest drawback is the draw of Experts. Many knowledgeable users might flee there and abandon StackOverflow. It essentially creates a refuge for skilled programmers to sit aloof from the unwashed masses. I very much doubt that is the kind of attitude StackExchange wishes to promote. There are ways to address this, both positively and negatively. Have Experts' rep add to SO's, require continued SO participation to enable Experts access, etc.

One other important flaw to acknowledge is that it still doesn't solve the basic problem. What happens when the Experts community gets large enough for quality to start degrading?

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    One practical problem would be deciding who is allowed on Experts. Rep and badges are poor measuring sticks. Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 15:17
  • 1
    @S.L.Barth Yes, that's so, but you're missing the point entirely; read the bold paragraph in the middle. What does it say about the community and attitude when the problem raised is too much riff raff and one of its most direct solutions is picking up and going to play somewhere else? Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 15:22
  • 1
    @S.L.Barth yet I can easily name all the experts in the tags where I am expert myself. Just off my head, and I need no badges to base on. May be some guilds can be established, with some sort of code and rules and membership? Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 15:29
  • 1
    @YourCommonSense I realize you were not seriously suggesting the "Experts" proposal, but I'm trying to think along - hoping it will lead somewhere. Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 15:35
  • 4
    Maybe we shouldn't try to identify expert users, but think about reliable ways of identifying high-quality posts. We could then give high-quality content a preferential treatment over low-quality content. Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 15:37
  • 1
    I'd just like to take a moment to mention that Experts Exchange, which is something that this suggestion is modeled (in part) after, is a site that the founders consider to be their Arch Enemy, and that the creation of SO was in large part because they hated the way that that site in particular worked? Somehow I don't find it likely that they'll create a new subsite using that model.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 16:25
  • 1
    @S.L.Barth You raise a good point, the emphasis should be on content and not users. "Good" users can be generally trusted to provide good content, but we shouldn't assume that users who provide poor content will always do so. Perhaps some sort of hall of fame repository of excellent content as a highly filtered view of SO content, distantly related to the now defunct facebook subdomain? Deciding how to efficiently identify and deposit high quality new content is a tough problem, though. Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 16:28
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    @Servy The parallel is intentional, and again, the suggestion is rhetorical only. The problem spaces of why EE manages its user base the way it does, why SO was founded, and issues raised in this question share a lot of overlap. Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 16:38
  • I have a lot of difficulty finding questions that I feel are worth answering. which tags are you looking in? I'll grant you that C# questions are hard to come by - they're often a detailed question about a specific utility and not about the language itself. Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 17:17
  • @AdamRackis A good point, and one which has been raised elsewhere on this question, in relation to OP's efforts in PHP. When answering, I traffic in popular tags like C# and SQL, because that's what I know. Those tags exhibit the same problems in microcosm: when a community of askers reaches a certain size and age, the bulk of the questions become basic, repetitive, or extremely localized, and those types of questions tend to drown out more interesting content. I wager that you're right and if I were active in rarer tags, I'd find fewer but more appealing questions, as with smaller SE sites. Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 18:41
  • @Esoter - interesting. I've found, at least in C#, that the questions aren't so much basic, as about various C# utilities—entity framework, asp.net, NHibernate, log4Net, etc etc etc. There are very few questions about the language itself—inheritance, polymorphism, overloading, etc—at all. Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 21:01
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    I'm against "experts", for a very practical reason - with so many questions answered, it's very hard to earn reputation on Stack Overflow today, especially in mainstream languages. With my 5 months on the network and 10k rep overall, I have less than 300 rep on the site that's most interesting for me, because all I need to know was already asked and all I could share is already in answers.
    – Mołot
    Commented Sep 27, 2013 at 12:10
22

Downvote low quality content.

You want high quality content? Start using downvotes on low quality stuff. Start rewarding high quality content only.

Most people are very hesitant to use downvotes. But people react to them. Especially people who are regulars. Some of you guys have 10k or 100k rep on SO and view lots of mediocre or low quality stuff. Start using DVs.

Not rewarding mediocre content (ie no upvotes) is not the same as penalizing it (ie downvoting). This is something few people seem to get, though, your voting pattern seems to indicate you get the negative part. Are you upvoting good content as well?

Everyone needs to downvote low quality/mediocre content to provide a disincentive from it continuing to being posted

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    -1 people downvote and the OP gets angry. People get discouraged seeing a downvoted closed question just sitting there - not deleted. People stop downvoting.
    – Cole Johnson
    Commented Sep 27, 2013 at 20:42
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    @ColeJohnson I get angry somewhat when people come and post low quality content too. I almost always post a comment, however, when I downvote, and if people want to continue to ignore any required changes for their post then so be it. I honestly don't care if as a community people who are argumentative and hostile and feel entitled don't participate here...
    – enderland
    Commented Sep 27, 2013 at 21:07
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    i cannot downvote every mediocre content, because that's way too much. there's a downvoting limit. i usually downvote poor grammar and nonsense only.
    – Michael
    Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 16:43
  • 2
    Won't work. The poorest quality questions come from 1 rep users. Downvoting each 1 rep user isn't going to do anything. They'll just create a new account the next day with another crappy question.
    – Gerrat
    Commented May 15, 2014 at 20:00
16

The way that Mathematics dealt with this problem is quite interesting. There are actually TWO mathematics Stack Exchange Sites. Yes, that's right, two. https://math.stackexchange.com/ and https://mathoverflow.net/. Math Overflow is for professionals, Math is for non-professionals. The Math Overflow crowd talks about theoretical stuff, while the Math crowd covers more practical mathematics, homework, etc. I haven't actively participated in either of them, but from what I can tell, they seem to play nicely together.

We could do something similar with Stack Overflow. I would highly encourage that we not create a novice.stackexchange, but rather create a pro.stackexchange. There are a number of ways that this could be done, either self nominated, or perhaps only include those who have a Careers account. There are other ways as well.

If there is a strong desire to have only one site, then perhaps those who have been determined to be pros (Again, Careers seems like a good criteria) have an option to vote a question to be professional, which could then be added to the new site, or even cross listed. The cross listed would just show the filtered group of contacts.

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  • Although I like the idea, it will definitely kill Stack Overflow as we know it. Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 16:47
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    The parallels between the two math sites were what drove a large part of my answer as well. The question becomes managing overflow from the main site on the pro site. My facetious proposal posits a dam. Hyper aggressive moderation is another approach, though I worry that it would seriously damage the tone of the community. It's also important to note that the two math sites have paltry traffic compared to SO. They don't have to handle the problem scale that SO does, and if they did, I suspect that they wouldn't be handled any better. Note also that MO came first, but pro.SO would come second. Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 16:59
  • 1
    From the bottom of Mathoverflow: site design / logo © 2013 stack exchange inc; - along with a listing of most SE sites. I don't know the details of this site, but it does seem to be closely related to Stack Exchange. Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 21:05
  • Plus it shows up on the SE footer for all sites. Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 21:12
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    It got brought into the fold recently @cole ,on a mobile so links are difficult but look at the first few questions on their meta.
    – Ben
    Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 21:47
  • @ColeJohnson: Math Overflow is now officially a SE 2.0 site it appears, or at least is making the transition to such. It shows up at stackexchange.com/sites#science-traffic Commented Sep 27, 2013 at 1:03
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    There is a pro / theoretical branch of Stack Overflow: Software Engineering. Look, it even has "pro" in the name!
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 27, 2013 at 1:59
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    @Shog9 I hadn't seen that! I will be moving all my questions there shortly~
    – Thomas
    Commented Sep 27, 2013 at 11:47
  • @ColeJohnson: Done. Commented Sep 27, 2013 at 13:23
  • 2
    @Shog9 you got pro part right, but the rest is just a typo; correct spelling of the site name is Pro-gamers
    – gnat
    Commented Sep 27, 2013 at 22:35
  • @Shog9: Unfortunately not in my experience. Programmers.SE ends up accepting all sorts of questions that would be basically closed here as "primarily opinion based". It's good for figuring out what the average (non necessarily pro) programmer thinks about gotos for example or how Framework X rates vs Framework Y in the popular opinion (comparison threads). But that's about it, unfortunately. Not a "pro" site by a long shot... Comparing it with MO is really silly. (There are some old and rather bad/off-topic questions on MO too, but let's not get there.) Commented Jan 20, 2015 at 10:40
14

One way to reduce poor questions is to stop them from being answered. If someone is doing a school work or something, and just wants an answer, the SO reputation system does not really discourage that. As long as they can get answers, they will ask the very "local" questions about their specific novice code. And an answer to a crappy yet easy question is likely to get a bunch of upvotes for just being about correct, even though it is "programming 101", and even if question is getting downvotes and is about to get closed.

So, here is an idea stop too crappy questions from being answered: Give users of enough rep (5k? 10k?) a possibility to just put question on hold immediately, but also put that action to it's own review queue to prevent abuses.

This action should be reserved for clear cases, in fact there could be a check-box list of problems in the question, which justify it being put on hold. Proposed list:

  • Question contains non-compilable code snippet, but no justification for non-compilable code
  • Question is program working wrong, but does not explain observed and/or expected behavior
  • Question is about compiler error, but does not include the exact error message and/or does not indicate what line in question code it is.
  • Question does not use code block for code, or has missing or very misleading code indentation
  • Question does not state clearly what the problem is

So, when anybody with enough rep sees a poor-quality question with these specific problems, they click "immediate hold" to open above checkboxes, click those that apply, click "Apply", and question is set to hold, with reasons listed, waiting for editing.

Also anybody with enough rep could re-open the question simply by unchecking all the checkboxes (hopefully only if the issues are fixed).

And then these actions would have their own review queue, so users using this wrong would quickly lose the privilege to do immediate holds if others do not agree.

The outcome I hope is, bad questions go on hold very fast, and do not have time to get the answers the askers need. So such questions either get fixed, and stop bringing down the quality of SO, or they stay closed and stop being asked because they don't get answers any more. The asker may still get answers in comments (which need to stay open I suppose), but at least the ones answering in comments do not get reward for helping to bring the quality down.

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    I have a strong desire to throw in a penalty. Answered knowingly offtopic question that gets closed? Say good-bye to all the snatched rep and have some penalty points off your rep on top of that. Commented Sep 27, 2013 at 11:51
  • 1
    Setting aside the question of whether we (SE) want to somewhere/somehow provide a "debugging/programming service", I think driving out questions we don't want in the SO repository can and should be done via rep incentives and done by focusing on others, not the question asker. This proposal, including the penalties, seems like a good one. But I sense real SO/MSO resistance to doing this, since it seems so obvious and, as far as I know, hasn't been tried before.
    – Peter Alfvin
    Commented Sep 27, 2013 at 14:08
12

The premise of this question is that there are many deserving questions that languish below the fold, washed down the front page by torrent of sewage.

I challenge the premise.

  1. Where's the data to prove it?
  2. Where are the complaints from users whose questions are languishing?
  3. There are hundreds, nay, thousands of people looking at the incoming unanswered questions. Some of them, and it only needs to be some, are quick with downvotes. Downvotes are more relevant to this discussion than close votes, as they push the question straight down the page. Heck, some people even upvote the good questions, which gets them even more visibility.
  4. Tag filtering means that the total number of poor questions is not important. I filter for the tags I know something about, so I don't see the poor questions that aren't in my tags.

So, how about even one example of a question that suffered this fate? Yes, the eternal September is depressing, but it doesn't prove that the site is as disfunctional as claimed here.

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  • Really well said. Judging by the response of this question, it seems we're two of the few who don't think SO is being burried by crap. Or maybe this is a problem unique to the PHP tag - I've heard terrifying stories about what a ghetto that neighborhood is... Commented Sep 27, 2013 at 3:38
  • 4
    Let's take one of the tags I am currently active in from now on (starting from "automatically open gmail from my website using a form and php"): Commented Sep 27, 2013 at 6:16
  • 1
    @your - so where in that tag are some examples of great questions that have gotten no attention because all the simple questions are crowding them out? On the tags I'm active in, the occasional gem garners more than a few upvotes, and becomes a magnet for the tag's top contributors. Commented Sep 27, 2013 at 6:30
  • 2
    too broad, closed, closed, too localized, too localized, too localized (yet accepted), duplicated (yet accepted), dupe, not a real, dupe, dupe, good, too localized... - you see the picture. Commented Sep 27, 2013 at 6:30
  • 2
    There are only few people who dwell in certain tags. Most of them browse more general tags, (like [php] in my case). And all these questions in this sub-tag add to general obscuration. They move all the queue down. With all the good, the bad and the ugly questions. Commented Sep 27, 2013 at 6:34
  • 2
    Php is a special and hopeless cause. if you had entitled your question, 'what do we do with topics that are cathedrals of cargo cult' we'd be having a different discussion.
    – bmargulies
    Commented Sep 27, 2013 at 11:55
  • 1
    @your - I do this morning see a lot of downvoted questions in the tag to which you linked. It looks like this tag, like PHP, attracts a lot of garbage. Still though, can you please answer Roninante's original question: where are the examples of stellar questions that have gone unnoticed under the unmanageable pile of crap? Do you have any examples of such a thing happening? Every tag has its share of crap, but I've never failed to see quality questions get upvoted, and have top users flock to it. Commented Sep 27, 2013 at 16:31
  • @AdamRackis to clarify: I never mentioned no "stellar" questions. But just regular questions that more or less deserve an answer but got none. Commented Sep 27, 2013 at 16:42
  • 1
    @your - so be it. Where are the regular questions that aren't getting any answers. The overwhelming majority of 0+ questions on the front page of the tag to which you linked have answers. And there's an entire filter for unanswered questions that's usually decently monitored, as Rosinante said. I hardly think we need to make radical changes to Stack Overflow because PHP and its offshoots attract more crap than other languages Commented Sep 27, 2013 at 17:03
8

Is it possible to create new resource like novice.stackoverflow.com and move all these low quality questions there? With answers, votes and earned reputation points? I think that everbody would be happy and nobody hurt.

For reputation points over 1k (or something) on novice.stackoverflow.com, award reputation points on the original site, stackoverflow.com.

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    According to other comments, it is rather going to be php.stackoverflow.com or phpnovice.stackoverflow.com... Anyway, I like the idea. Not sure if the community liked it though. Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 9:39
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    I can already see people getting angry because their question was migrated to the novice site.
    – user247702
    Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 10:16
  • 5
    @Stijn there are many questions that have the very statement in the first line, like "I am new to the business, please bare with me" - at least these would have no objections. Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 10:53
  • 2
    @Stijn, I have already see angry people with closed questions...
    – sectus
    Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 10:56
  • 2
    I want to add that I like the idea, I just don't think that everybody will be happy and nobody will be hurt :)
    – user247702
    Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 11:12
  • @Stijn, you are right... we need balance.
    – sectus
    Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 11:23
  • 5
    It's been suggested before, and it won't work. Closing questions is one of the primary mechanisms that separates this site form all of the others out there. Such a site would devolve into everything that this site's founders hated about the sites like these that were out before. They're filled with tons of crap questions that nobody besides the OP is interested in, and as such knowledgeable answerers don't go there to answer questions, so the questions often don't get answered, and when they do, the answers are of poor quality.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 15:04
  • @Servy at least we would have an excuse to close the bad ones on the main site. What if the novice site was self-deleting (with a migration path for those few questions worth preserving)? Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 16:14
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    @JanDvorak But nobody would use it. The experts wouldn't go there because there wouldn't be interesting questions, and the novices wouldn't post there because there wouldn't be experts there; they wouldn't get good answers. They'd post on the main site anyway because it's where you go to get answers, and then they'll complain when the question is moved/closed/deleted and they don't get an answer, just like they do now. As it is, users can go to any of hundreds of other sites that have no quality filter; most don't because that system just doesn't work, as decades of experience has shown.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 16:16
  • 2
    @Servy there's another problem I've just realised: 90% of all novice questions should actually be closed as duplicates on the main site. Maybe we should just incentivise closing? Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 16:19
  • @JanDvorak There have been lots of proposals surrounding that over the years. I've yet to see one that looks promising; they generally have pretty big drawbacks or potential abuse mechanisms, but if you can think of something good (after first looking through past discussions on the topic) then by all means, propose something. I'm not fundamentally opposed to that idea, I've just never seen a suggestion that "does it right".
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 16:21
  • 1
    @Servy I propose experimenting. Closing too much is IMO a much smaller problem than not closing enough. Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 16:23
  • It seems like it would be much better to create "Professional" sites than "novice" sites. Make the default Stack Overflow be the novice site. Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 16:34
  • 1
    @PearsonArtPhoto It would not dramatically change all of the fundamental problems with the concept. SO was created, from day one, to be the place with the highest quality content, where the experts would want to come to answer questions, and where people looking for answers would be able to find useful information. Having lots of content that isn't any of those things has hundreds of other sites to be posted on; we don't need/want it here.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 26, 2013 at 17:16
  • @Servy, "The experts wouldn't go there because there wouldn't be interesting questions [...]". Another downside is that novices could answer with non-optimal or frankly bad advice to questions from other novices (e.g. I remember a question like "I've created my own password hashing scheme, how do I secure it?", 3 or 4 answers from novices, then an expert comes in with proper references and tears the novices' answers apart). The fact that questions and answers from novices can be read, voted and commented on by people who may be more knowledgeable is certainly an essential feature of SO.
    – Bruno
    Commented Jul 11, 2014 at 21:07
8

I support most the basic premises of this proposal, to wit:

  • The volume of essentially un-reusable questions is dominating the site making it harder to find either answerered or unanswered reusable ones
  • The current close process and reputation systems are exacerbating this issue, although obviously enabling those interested in asking and answering non-reusable questions
  • We should consider solutions which attempt to support both objectives by dividing the questions up

Like many, I'm unsure of what specific approach to take, but I offer the following for consideration (i.e. food for thought, topic starters, things I'm not sure of, etc.)

  • I think it would helpful if we use some language other than bad/good, novice/expert, ghetto/upscale or unimportant/important to characterize these different types of questions. Although the language is awkward, I prefer something that conveys not-reusable/reusable because it's fairly neutral in terms of value and is aligned with the dual objectives of SO.
  • Related to the above, we should think/speak neutrally about the types of users interested in the two question types. While it's probably true that expert users will more frequently answer the reusable questions, I suspect novice users will often ask reusable questions and many expert users may choose to answer non-reusable questions.
  • Do not equate professional with expert. They may be correlated, but are no means identical particularly across domains.
  • Make it easy/attractive to move questions between these categories. If there's no shame or privilege in one vs. the other, if they are both respected, then there's no big deal about what's "right". Both categories will get addressed - it's about getting most of the questions to the people most interested in them.
  • Run a series of experiments instead of debating changes as if they will be permanent The number of questions that are either in the close queue or which should be in the close queue is growing like the national debt as is the number of unanswered questions. This isn't a life-critical system we're talking about - we should try something.
  • Finally, we should acknowledge that "too localized" was originally intended to refer to localization issues (e.g. language, currency, etc.) and stick to whatever terms we decide on for characterizing questions that no one but the asker is likely to gain any value from.
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    Thank you a lot for making it the way I had to make it. Commented Sep 27, 2013 at 6:35
  • @YourCommonSense (and common upvoter) Sorry, but I'm not understanding the comment here, including whether this is a bona fide "thank you" or sarcasm.
    – Peter Alfvin
    Commented Sep 27, 2013 at 14:16
  • 1
    Nope it is not a sarcasm :) You've got exactly what I meant and made concise and clear essence of it in your answer. Commented Sep 27, 2013 at 14:37
6

I think the underlying problem is that not enough people are using the existing janitorial tools... You can't really complain that something in the community is dirty and then refuse to clean it up.

Some policy of mine

  • I do not press closevote buttons. Current closure system is ridiculous and - worse of that - ambiguous. And never works as intended.
  • I do not press flags. I am not a police nor sneak. Nor I would never ever follow a common habit of using flags as an argument in a programming discussion.

I understand the frustration. The tools we have for cleaning aren't always ideal, and many of them need some major improvement. Often it feels like we have a broom and dust pan when what we really need is an industrial shop vacuum, but that doesn't negate the fact that using the broom and dust pan will help with the cleaning while we're waiting for the shop vac.

Basically do what you can with what you have...

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    Indeed this is the problem. I wish I know the way how to make enough people using the existing janitorial tools. It works for the grammar only - because there are whole 2 rep points offered per question edit. So, I see here and there another pointless question popped up by just minor grammar fix or a pair of backticks. It seems reputation is the only reward that works. Commented Sep 27, 2013 at 11:59
  • 2
    FWIW, after initially trying to "follow the rules", I now have exactly the same policy and I considerable myself an "honorable person". If a process is fundamentally flawed, then I think my use of it is just delaying the day it gets addressed (i.e. "hurting" the system overall). As long as I'm combining my non-use with consistent criticism and proposals at reform, I think that's ok. Call it civil disobedience if you will.
    – Peter Alfvin
    Commented Sep 27, 2013 at 13:59
5

I didn't see any of the current answers address what I see as the worst aspect of this rant:

The goal: to limit the number of [visible] questions to sane amount.

Why is that the goal? Of course the number of questions visible on the front page move insanely quickly: Stack Overflow is by far the most popular tool for developers to get help.

But when people are looking to answer questions—whether they're professional devs or enthusiasts, I frankly don't think it matters which—they usually go to the tag page for the relevant technology, and filter by newest. Or they make use of filters on the front page so they only see the small subset of questions that interest them.

This entire rant strikes me as a solution in search of a problem. Whenever I Google something for a development problem I'm having, I almost always get Stack Overflow results at the very top with outstanding answers. When I need to ask a question, I almost always get a flood of outstanding answers. And when I have the time and inclination to answer questions, it rarely takes me long to hit the rep cap after hanging around the JavaScript or jQuery tag.

Stack Overflow is working quite well as is; leave it alone.1


1 Please don't misinterpret this as implying that SO is perfect. There is certainly a backlog of questions in the close queue, and any number of other things that are sub-optimal. I'm just saying that a fundamental re-working of the site since good questions are not getting attention is a bad idea based on fundamentally flawed assumptions.

1

I think this problem could probably be solved by making answering questions a mutual trade between two people. Let me elaborate

User_B answers a tough question from User_A. So User_A now owes User_B 1 'point'. Later, User_A looks at the question list and sees that User_B asked something. Since User_A owes User_B a point he will want to answer User_B's question so that they are even with each other.

We can make a transitive closure of this 'owing-graph' too. Suppose User_A owes User_B and User_B owes User_C. Then, User_A answers a question for User_C. Now User_C also owes User_A and we have a 'owing-cycle'. This owing cycle should be automatically broken, which will lead to no-one owes the other one anything.

The 'owing-graph' is a directed acyclic graph. Whenever there would be a cycle, the cycle can be easily broken, by subtracting a cyclic subgraph with equal edge values from the main graph.

This automatically leads to a transitive nature of the 'owing-graph'. This transitive nature is what makes this whole concept of 'owing someone something' useful. Basically this means: if User_A owes User_B and User_B owes User_C then User_A owes User_C indirectly.

Friends

In this context I want to define a 'friend' as someone who I owe directly or indirectly. Between each two users you can calculate a score. E.g. User_A owes x_0=2 points directly to User_B, User_A owes x_1=4 points to User_B through one intermediate user, User_A owes x_1=5 points to User_B through 2 intermediate users. In total, User_A owes User_B 2+4+5=11 points.

If I'm going to the site, I may decide to preferrably answer questions from friends, i.e. from people that I owe something. So I may want to filter questions so that I only see questions from users where x_0 + 0.9*(x_1 + 0.9*(x_2 + 0.9*(x_3 + ...))) is greater than or equal to 5. Additionally I may also filter by a specific tag.

The idea behind this method is that the people I owe are people who know how to answer questions that I care about. It's hard to imagine that someone who answers one of my questions with a nice and helpful answer will ask a silly question tomorrow. Of course, it also depends on the quality of my questions. If I ask silly questions I will probably become friends with less-than-professional software-developers, but that's okay.

Implementation details

1) The concept of friendship should be a bit broader. I don't only want to see questions of people I owe, I probably also want to see questions of people I owed in the past. I don't want to no longer see questions by User_X just because I just answered one recently and got much reputation for it.

2) We would need to think of a way to decide how much I owe each of the users who answers my question. Just one point for each answer is too simplistic. My first guess would be that me together with the people I owe, should somehow decide through some voting mechanism how much the answer is worth.

3) Even if it technically works, I think the only way to find out if it is a good idea, is to try it out and see if it works.

4) As a start, it would be nice if I could see preferrably questions by users who I have upvoted in the past. If I am a pro who doesn't upvote noobs this will lead to me seeing questions of other pros with higher probability. (if we could make this transitive through calculating a geometric series it would be nice, but probably very computationally intensive if done large-scale.)

Consequences

The biggest consequence would probably be that I don't see so many stupid questions. Therefore I will probably more likely answer questions. I will probably spend more time on each answer. Hopefully, when I do ask a questions, I will get more attention from professional developers, and less from noobs.

Another nice thing is that the noobs are not punished directly. Changing the concept of reputation from an objective measure to a subjective measure means that the community will be split into different sub-communities, where the noobs can be together, and the pros can be together. If someone wants to become a member of the pro-community, he has to answer questions asked by pros in a way that help him, which basically means that he has to be a pro to be able to do this. The good thing is that the system has at no point to decide who is a pro and who is a noob, so no one has to feel offended.

tell me what you think about this idea...

1

I would use a different approach...

I would provide a detailed answer to someone who is showing his effort, research and his willness to learn. And for those who ask a silly question, I'll just provide a hint - and send them to do their homework - no free meal.

As Stack Overflow becomes bigger, you can't control the crowd - and as you would like new people around, they'll have to go through some learning curve. If you'll cut off their hands too soon - they won't be here.

On the other hand, having so many rep 1 users (~2M), means they have a separate community within Stack Overflow which the moderators can't control - how would you control so many people asking so many questions and answering so many answers.

I personally started asking silly questions myself and answering silly questions of others, and slowly become knowledgeable of the site's goal and now trying to help other newcomers understand this - but it takes time.. and we have to accept it.

Acting cynical or imposing more moderator control will just cause this community to become a "dictatorship" of the elite guild which means the site will slowly lose its reputation.

So professionals and others with high reputation...

  1. Contribute from your experience and wealth of knowledge to others - this is what Stack Overflow is all about.
  2. Control the level of your answer's details pending on the level of question - no free meals.
  3. Try to mentor the submitter to eventually level up his "asking" skills - usually he doesn't know what you are expecting him - even if he read all the Help Center, How to Ask, etc... (some people don't know practically how to make the simple, complete example...)
  4. It is our mutual goal (moderators, high rep, and newbies) to sustain the knowledge/skill levels in the community - if the professionals/high rep won't teach/train the newbies - there will be no contentiousness to the community and the knowledge it preserves.
0

The fundemental problem here is that SO was designed to answer people's questions, and now has so many questions and answers that it is a kind of wiki for coding question.

Answering questions doesn't just help people, it is also very important for SEO reasons. The more content that gets added, the more SO's pagerank algorithm is increased for all the terms mentioned (though there is probably an upper limit somewhere, there's no reason to assume it is reached). There's also no telling what keywords the post contained that might find the top spot on a Google search. And not just Google search, but SO search as well. Although a question may have already been answered somewhere, it nevertheless might be missing an important keyword that the other post did not have. I'm not saying that that is the general case, but there's no way to know it.

Many "duplicate" posts have the top spot on a Google search. If they were removed, would another post take its place? In most cases, but certainly not in all.

So don't imagine that SO is ever going to drop its site ranking by removing these great sources of trafffic. Its just not a fair thing to ask. I'm not working for them, just pointing the obvious. They appear to be sane in that regard.

Another thing that seems clear is that in the tags that have been around for a long time, there cannot be enough real questions of the "nobody has ever asked this or something like it before" quality to satisfy the number of people who want to answer questions and spend time on SO. So basically, what you have now is people who are shifting roles from expert question answerers to "wiki site maintainers" who are spending time closing questions and asking users if they have done this or that.

So, in short, I would say that although there is merit in cleaning up the site, for SEO reasons it is totally a wrong premise to think that SO can ever be a wiki site. This is not just driving traffic, but how search works. The question diversity is too large to meaningfully categorize all of them together, let along the fact that no search engine exists that can search categorized data as well as google churns through the "web" via keyword indexing.

The Noob problem could be fixed easily by putting up real barriers to entry, but no one is going to do that because... well... it seems that the activity has merit in the sense of driving site usage.

So - one possible solution - put up an actual wiki site and link to it from these duplicate questions. Maintain the wiki site, and when a question comes in, offer the wiki link as an acceptible answer (ie. an answer that the OP can accept). Add preview for SEO. Then add an official notice at the top (by moderator if needed) suggesting the approved wiki answer "Find up to date and maintained information about this question topic here". Now the question has been classified and it has real SEO connections.

As to user incentivization, isn't the real question "what do you want them do do"? You can't detect bad questions without a human moderator, so that is just a waste of time. You can't exclude beginners from the site without testing them somehow or making them pay money (neither of which are reasonable).

So - if you want to make a wiki site: make a wiki site.

I'd add that the OP has already done this (created a infomative site, https://phpdelusions.net/pdo), but it is his own personal space and not maintained by the community. If you started compiling such wikis then there would again (for a short time) be work for many users.

Also, even though there exist "community wiki" answers, it doesn't actually make any sense to take a user's question and make it a wiki, nor is it properly formatted with linkable sub-elements.

3
  • FWIW Stack Overflow was created to be more like Wikipedia than it ended up. The original blog post where Joel announced the launch compared each question to a Wikipedia page, and collaborative editing was more strongly encouraged.
    – Jeremy
    Commented Jul 3, 2017 at 2:16
  • Joel still runs SO, so without a change of management, I don't see the "more like wikipedia than it ended up" theory. Rather, it is like wikipedia "for some extremely narrow, specific programming question". It is exactly like that. Its also clear his idea of editing was voting and writing a better answer. Commented Jul 4, 2017 at 3:15
  • To make a single wiki for every unique question is a great goal, but at best you can only moderate some of them. Q/A is not like a dictionary/encyclopedia, because there are too many valid ways of phrasing one question from too diverse an audience. Creating a site like wikipedia requires very detailed specifications as to how things are named and what they contain. They do not show individual "poster" identities and comments. One needs to take the actual content and start formatting it and structuring it to acheive that perfeced "authored and maintained" look. Commented Jul 4, 2017 at 3:54
-2

Everybody seems to agree basically that :

  • there are a form of unreusable questions which are less interesting and sometimes just poor,
  • these come in great numbers,
  • incentives for all questions being equal make them be part of the system

Core idea: High Reusability Potential (HRP) question status

Rather than negatively offsetting unreusable questions, I suggest quite the opposite (to hopefully achieve the same segregation): positively offsetting reusable questions.
Instead of focusing on what are bad questions and how to hide them, we should try to discriminate good questions and display them more prominently. So I propose a different status, with at least an indicator on the questions' page.

Then of course, we should give more visibility to HRP questions, such as

  • creating a short-hand search filter for them, so that you may "limit the number of [visible] questions to a sane amount"
  • pointing to them with duplicates and generally use them more as references,
  • having search engines reference them more (if this is possible)
  • enable the search filter by default, suggest to remove it if few hits
  • [other suggestions welcome]

And let people lacking a hobby or desperate for internet points dig through non-reusable questions. Those will still be on-site, answered in maybe a good or a bad way, and have inherently bad or decent quality -- just not much reusability.

Identifying reusability

To be honest, reusable questions are rather easy to identify with metrics we already have (after some time): they attract upvotes†. With votes being open to all, and allowing everybody to upvote but discouraging downvotes sligthly, any question that is ever so slightly recurring in the community gets points.

So maybe set a threshold, such that HRP := (Score >= 10)?

Non-reusable questions

If we take the ghetto to mean place for poor or unreusable questions, this system defines (by contraposition) the "grey town" of questions -- which is either the ghetto or just a temporary place depending on whether at some point in the future, these questions will reach HRP status.

It is also less critical to get the limit between both categories exactly right if you don't remove the non-reusable questions.

The goal is of course not to remove grey-town questions (but still close off-topic or very poor questions the same way that we do today). Hence they will still "take up space" for the obscure or unforeseen case of re-applicability, and to them a chance to be promoted, but not for answerers who have little time to spare.

This might become some sort of a de-facto novice zone, but not on a separate site.

Incentives will make it work

To guarantee social promotion of questions, we need not encourage downvoting low quality content, but encourage upvoting quality content more, Because its probably easier to vote someone up than down (which is reinforced by the penalty incurred by downvoting).

What is critical to this system, is to let questions flow between both categories. I think the giving a visible HRP status on the question page, and Making the HRP threshold official would encourage people to upvote at least until this threshold is reached, whenever the question is well-asked, potentially reusable, and event if is not applicable to themselves (which in my experience, does not happen a lot today [citation needed]).

This makes the simple viewer less passive, gives him an opportunity of very quick and simple feedback even if he's not confident he is an export in the area. This makes him more of a promoter instead of a punisher of some form, giving him the "better" role. While it is often hard to pick why a question is poor, good questions are in my experience more easily identified (and often answered quickly).

Hopefully, this will also make people understand that curating their question will give it a higher visibility, and thus more chances of getting an answer.

Other new incentives, such as badges or privileges, may encourage people to dig through the grey town with more motivation than just out of boredom (or cravings for reputation). For example, new badge(s) for finding a question, and editing/promoting it until it reaches HRP, or a privileges per-tag to facilitate HRP, e.g. silver => votes count double but only towards HRP status, not question score or any other factor.

Good fit with respect to other opinions in this thread

This is an attempt to create two categories without resorting to pejorative vs meliorative vocabulary, as Peter Alfvin suggested.

HRP questions will fulfill goal 2 from Robert Harvey's answer, "To serve as a repository for useful programming knowledge.", while the grey town questions will fulfill goal 1, "To get people quick answers to their programming questions" -- but without letting "vague, obscure, under-specified questions from people who lack basic knowledge of their craft" drowning out valued posts.

This is basically a fancy way of implementing what Shog9 suggested using search filters, but with more incentives.

Potential downsides

  • Potential points devaluation -- but do we really care? Worst case, this is fixable by inflation.
  • Second wave of answers whenever a question slowly achieves HRP (is this really bad?)
  • A risk of splitting the community two-ways? People living in the grey town vs people never removing the HRP filter. Though probably a lot of people will do both part-time and try to identify and fish out good questions, and everything should be done to encourage this open-minded behaviour.
  • Might not solve the frustration of this question, which is that by the time reusable questions reach their HRP status, they might already be answered, and eager answerers will still have to dig through a heap of poor questions.

† with the exception of historical lock and similar questions, that gain(ed) upvotes from other factors such as entertainement


Looking for a TL;DR? Don't be a lazy bum, just read the bold words.

Bonus (failed) analogy: Instead of separating just pearls from sand, we could also favour select coarser sand, to ... er... make bigger pearls, or something.

10
  • 1
    Another measure for reusability might be: how often something is used as a dupe-close target. Commented Mar 3, 2016 at 16:14
  • 2
    To me this just seems like an explanation of what we already have. Positively scored questions show up higher on the list when looking for an answer. When looking for questions to answer, the negatively scored ones already fall off the page, and the positively scored ones stay on. We simply need people using the tools available to them more often (and properly!)
    – Kevin B
    Commented Mar 3, 2016 at 16:15
  • Very good questions on low traffic tag often get really few upvotes. And poor questions on high traffic tags often get much more upvotes that they should deserved.
    – vard
    Commented Mar 3, 2016 at 16:16
  • 1
    In particular i don't like that downvoting is gated at 125 rep, I think it should be closer to the requirement for upvoting.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Mar 3, 2016 at 16:41
  • @KevinB Yes this is by design changing minimally the current system. See it as an idea to create a positive incentive to upvote posts that would be "more deserving" of an answer. The other option is to encourage people to downvote more as enderland suggests, but this is already less favoured by the system.
    – Cimbali
    Commented Mar 3, 2016 at 16:55
  • @vard That's why I don't suggest something proportional to upvotes, but a fixed limit. And hopefully this would lead to some behavioural change that would make the first few upvotes easier to obtain.
    – Cimbali
    Commented Mar 3, 2016 at 16:55
  • @Cimbali So maybe set a threshold, such that HRP := (Score >= 10) I'm not sure to understand quite right what you mean by that then. Trying to create an incentive is a good idea, though with what you actually suggesting high question scored from high-traffic tags will tend to get in front to equivalent HRP questions from low-traffic tags which drain less upvotes (< 10) and possibly go in your gray zone. Or maybe I don't understand something in your proposal.
    – vard
    Commented Mar 3, 2016 at 17:23
  • The actual value is not important I guess. 5? 3? Whatever has a good chance of getting reusable questions over the bar easily, but leaving non-reusable ones in the grey area. If the n first votes are only some sort of validation that your question is reusable and well written enough, they will be easily reached, even on low-traffic tags. Maybe somehow invertly ponderate by views? (i.e. a high upvotes / views ratio would somehow push it to HRP status easier)
    – Cimbali
    Commented Mar 3, 2016 at 17:29
  • An upvotes / views ratio sounds like a much more viable option in my opinion. I would love to read more about what others would think about that.
    – vard
    Commented Mar 3, 2016 at 17:37
  • I think the problem with such a measure is that it asymptotically goes to 0. But this could be an adjustment for low views, say upvotes / views > 10% if #views < 100 else upvotes > 10
    – Cimbali
    Commented Mar 3, 2016 at 17:47

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