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This is probably going going to be controversial, but I'd like to suggest that the (and similar tags) be removed from the chat rooms. I think the tag has the potential to encourage less than desirable behavior. There are a few reasons for the suggestion.

  1. Some of the sites on the Stack Exchange network have a reputation for being less than friendly to users. I can't help but feel this tag contributes to the problem. Confer: Could we please be a bit nicer to new users?.

  2. The sites on the network have a process in place to handle low quality posts, and they will be handled in due course. The actions the tag generates are largely superfluous.

  3. This tag disrupts the normal flow of questions through the queues. Rather than folks taking the question at the top of the queue, questions are cherry picked based on dubious criteria. The disruption causes some questions in the queues to have their close votes dropped when they are not handled expediently due to vote-aging.

  4. A quick influx of downvotes and negative comments tend to berate a user. It's hard for me to imagine anything positive will come from the user's contact with the site.

  5. Some sites, like Stack Overflow, welcome less experienced programmers. When a few folks get themselves in a frenzy over a novice question, then the site is not achieving its goal of being a resource to enthusiast programmers.

  6. A user's contact with the site ends when their question is closed. If the tag contributes to a premature close, then it's a lost opportunity. The question cannot be improved (it's closed and likely to remain so), the question cannot receive an answer (even if it's a good answer for a deficient question), and the user cannot be mentored (the community cannot help them improve).

  7. The tag has negative connotations, so those who act on the tag already have a predisposition for a negative interaction. It kind of reminds me of hooligans at a soccer match, and I don't anticipate a positive outcome.

  8. I think the tag encourages a "hunt in packs" mentality, and I'm not sure that's appropriate. Instead of folks dashing in to help a new user, they are rushing in to effectively punish a user. I kind of envision a plague of locust decimating crops.

  9. In a related question, Brad Larson commented "... What started as a cleanup effort quickly spiraled into a handful of people going around and teaming up to delete anything they disapproved of from the site". I can't help but feel this tag promotes the behavior.

  10. If artificial limits on items like close votes are due to the behavior this tag encourages, then this tag clearly harms sites in the network. Confer: Why is there a limit on close votes in a day?.

I'm not commenting on the quality of the posts, I'm not trying to dictate how folks should use their votes, and I'm not offering any solutions for the quality problem or the queue backlog problem.

I'm just saying this tag has the potential to expose an ugly side of the Stack Exchange sites. Worse, it would take very few to tarnish the reputation of an entire site.

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    even if that was a good idea (it isn't), it's technically impossible: You can ban tags, bare keywords will come. You can ban keywords, full descriptions will come. You can ban the word "close" (BAD idea), bare links will come. You can ban linking from chat to main (BAD idea), we'll post bare URLs and then write ourselves a script to linkify them. You can't stop us from trying to keep the site clean. Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 7:52
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    Deal with the users, not the tag. There is plenty of responsible use of chat rooms to close posts too. Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 7:55
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    You are trying to ban chewing gum to prevent vandalism here. Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 7:57
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    I've posted this in chat last month: " I think the cv-pls here is/was meant for questions that would likely remain open without directly asking people to CV them, and some users also do it for questions that would get closed without linking them here. Same as @tchrist, not implying it's wrong, just idle musing."
    – user247702
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 8:01
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    @jww have you tried speaking to the user whose behavior you don't like? Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 8:08
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    99 out of 100 cv-pls requests I handle are from regulars of the chat room. If someone posts a request that I don't agree with I can either ask for clarificarion or not follow. As soon as BOTs handle cv-pls requests we are over the edge.
    – rene
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 8:13
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    I wonder if there is a specific chatroom where you did find that the usage and/or handling of cv-pls request were beyond limits?
    – rene
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 8:17
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    @jww it's simple. When one casts an invalid close request, we ask him to defend his position. Because, you know, he might have noticed something we haven't. Or, we might teach the guy what should or shouldn't be closed. Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 8:23
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    @jww please provide any solid examples of abuse. You're asking us to ban something that is of major value to the site. People coordinating and performing free QA for the site is not something I think SE would like to prevent. Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 8:24
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    @jww right, but these people want to use their sub-community, the chat in order to promote clean up on tags they care about. Hos is a cv-pls different in that regard from a close vote which throws it into the close vote queue (except subtler since it isn't a request to close but rather a request to consider it for closing) Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 8:36
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    @jww Disregarding whether or not we are 'hunting in packs', the question is rightfully closed. Why do we care how it was closed? in over 60% of the cases, OP never even bothers to return to the site and look or comment on it. Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 8:44
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    @jww I meant - a negative example where the members of the [cv-right] did something that was not positive for the site. I said "Provide any solid examples of abuse". That post isn't abuse - it's a bad question that was closed and downvoted. Closing it informed the author what they did wrong in a big message. Maybe the downvotes were uncalled for but that's about it. Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 8:45
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    @jww If a money launderer was found and trialed thanks to him winning the lottery, do we start complaining that the lottery was doing something wrong? (True story, by the way). If a question needs to be closed, it needs to be closed, it really doesn't matter if it's done by chat, queue, flag, or passerby moderator. Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 9:50
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    You used my Good Morning to Unihedron as an example for your case. Good joke! Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 11:02
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    The close and reopen vote privelage page primarily describes closing questions directly, and only mentions the queues at the end. The help center article about question closure doesn't even mention the queues. The article about reopening, again, only mentions the queues at the end, under "How do I find questions that someone thinks should be reopened?" The queues are consistently described as a means for finding questions to cast votes on, and there is no indication that someone looking to cast close votes should use them. Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 16:36

1 Answer 1

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Let me answer each of your bullets one by one.

  1. Some of the sites on the Stack Exchange network have a reputation for being less than friendly to users. I can't help but feel this tag contributes to the problem. Confer: Could we please be a bit nicer to new users?.
  • That is true. It's an unending cycle. Crap questions cause unhappy users. Unhappy users become more aggressive in their moderation methods, which causes more unhappy users. The way to prevent it is not to fix the regulars. It's to better prevent crap questions.
  1. The sites on the network have a process in place to handle low quality posts, and they will be handled in due course. The actions the tag generates are largely superfluous.
  • Not really. Over the course of its lifetime, over 2000 questions were closed by the actions of the PHP room's alone. That's rather impressive I'd say.
  1. This tag disrupts the normal flow of questions through the queues. Rather than folks taking the question at the top of the queue, questions are cherry picked based on dubious criteria. The disruption causes some questions in the queues to have their close votes dropped when they are not handled expediently due to vote-aging.
  • So what? I do both. Review and via chat. We are intelligent people and can multitask. Also, why do you care about the order in which questions get reviewed? They all need to be reviewed eventually.
  1. A quick influx of downvotes and negative comments tend to berate a user. It's hard for me to imagine anything positive will come from the user's contact with the site.
  • Don't take downvotes personally. They are a tool to determine the quality of a post. If you take downvotes personally, it's your problem not ours. That said, there has been cases where people go a little overboard with comments. We're not encouraging this kind of behavior.
  1. Some sites, like Stack Overflow, welcome less experienced programmers. When a few folks get themselves in a frenzy over a novice question, then the site is not achieving its goal of being a resource to enthusiast programmers.
  • The site achieves his goal pretty well I'd say. The % of people with accounts on the site is a very very minor fraction of the population of users using Stack Overflow (visitors from Search Engine makes the biggest bulk). Stack Overflow still appears first on 80% of the programming related searches I make.
  1. A user's contact with the site ends when their question is closed. If the tag contributes to a premature close, then it's a lost opportunity. The question cannot be improved (it's closed and likely to remain so), the question cannot receive an answer (even if it's a good answer for a deficient question), and the user cannot be mentored (the community cannot help them improve).
  • I'm sorry, that's just plain wrong. The entire point of changing the wording from [closed] to [on-hold] was to better express the idea that closing is part of the process. Post-Close-Edit-Reopen is a good thing, it's the point of closing. If your question was closed for whatever reason, read the close reason, and edit your post accordingly. If you feel like it, come to chat and post a request. Yes, we take those too.
  1. The tag has negative connotations, so those who act on the tag already have a predisposition for a negative interaction. It kind of reminds me of hooligans at a soccer match, and I don't anticipate a positive outcome.
  • Again, wrong. While most questions do get closed (because they deserve to get closed), a lot of questions do not, because other users don't agree with the person who posted the request.
  1. I think the tag encourages a "hunt in packs" mentality, and I'm not sure that's appropriate. Instead of folks dashing in to help a new user, they are rushing in to effectively punish a user. I kind of envision a plague of locust decimating crops.
  • Nope. See above bullet.
  1. In a related question, Brad Larson commented "... What started as a cleanup effort quickly spiraled into a handful of people going around and teaming up to delete anything they disapproved of from the site". I can't help but feel this tag promotes the behavior.
  • Brad is a person. A moderator, sure, but a person nonetheless. He has opinions just like the rest of us. There are plenty other moderators who support our efforts (Gordon, ThiefMaster).
  1. If artificial limits on items like close votes are due to the behavior this tag encourages, then this tag clearly harms sites in the network. Confer: Why is there a limit on close votes in a day?.
  • It has nothing to do with the closing limits. The point is "Here is a question that needs to be reviewed, and potentially closed".

People use their votes however they like. We organize these things in chat because the quality of the questions on the site has become unbearable. I tried to suggest more positive ways of mitigating the problem, without much success. Until something like that is accepted, we will continue to moderate the site as per our privileges.

If you feel that a specific question was closed which should have been:

  • Cast a reopen vote
  • Come to chat and post a request
  • Flag it for moderator attention
  • Start a meta post about it
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    "We are intelligent people..." speak for yourself would ya you insensitive clod
    – PeeHaa
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 8:12
  • @Second - I just realized from Unihedron's related answer (duh...) - there a second, full blown QA process running in the side streets and back alleys. Its complete with close (cv-pls) and re-opens (reopen-pls). Do you really feel thing are functioning properly like that? Is a second, parallel process a good architecture? Should the site do away with the primary queues used by regular folks like me and just use the side streets and alley ways?
    – jww
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 9:02
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    The process exists to address a perceived issue. Don't take away the process because you don't like it. It's counter-productive. If you want the situation to improve, think about how to improve the "official" tools we have.
    – Bart
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 9:09
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    @jww "I just realized from Unihedron's related answer" What? I didn't post any answers related to this (yet). I'm not sure what you're trying to convey with my name here.
    – Unihedron
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 10:57

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