42

I don't mean to point fingers or cast blame on an individual, but I've noticed that PHP chat has a lot of requests on questions that I believe are valid, to varying degrees.

See here

While I am all for cleaning up questions that don't belong, are off topic, etc, I worry that this method is becoming a powerhouse for quickly closing questions that only one or two people disagree with. I don't think it's a healthy way of going about things. The request is posted, the high rep users swarm the question, and it gets shut down in seconds.

This is only an observation but everyone seems to be close in that room, which is good. There seems to be a "scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" kind of feel to it, which comes in handy when an individual needs help. However, my fear is that some of these users are voting to close questions largely because one of their "friends" said so. It's hard to tell if these questions are being shut down because they don't belong here or because the high rep PHP users don't like it because it's too juvenile and "bully" it out.

This is not in all cases but it does happen.

Often the questions are easily answered or class 101 questions. This doesn't disqualify them from being good questions. If they're duplicate or google-able etc, I understand, but it is occasionally not the case.

An individual compared this cv process to be the equivalent of an extra mod, but I think mods are appointed for a reason.

This is just my opinion. I tend to stick out for the little guy so when I see a question get shot down a minute after it's asked just because the asker is new to development I can't help but feel bad for him. Often some good, quality answers get in that not only help the asker, but others could benefit from it to, so it's a shame to see expansion of knowledge get edged out so quickly.

This is just a concern of mine and I don't want to see it get worse.

17
  • What does this have to do with chat?
    – balpha StaffMod
    Commented Jan 24, 2012 at 19:45
  • @YannisRizos: Oh I see, I missed that part. Thanks.
    – balpha StaffMod
    Commented Jan 24, 2012 at 19:54
  • 9
    "This is not in all cases but it does happen." -- Do you have examples where it actually did happen?
    – balpha StaffMod
    Commented Jan 24, 2012 at 19:56
  • 39
    Its like a PHP shark tank. With frikken laser beams.
    – user1228
    Commented Jan 24, 2012 at 19:59
  • 4
    In my experience, the majority of these are votes to close duplicates. There's nothing inherently wrong with closing dupes, especially as some community members are trying to push for canonical dupe targets.
    – Charles
    Commented Jan 24, 2012 at 21:04
  • 7
    Use the tag reopen-pls if you feel a question was closed unreasonably, they'll scratch your back too.
    – salathe
    Commented Jan 24, 2012 at 21:10
  • 22
    Can you point to some good-quality questions that have been closed wrongly?
    – Pekka
    Commented Jan 24, 2012 at 21:22
  • 3
    The only problem I see here is the meta tag cv-pls. Is that really being applied to questions? That's worse than beginner.
    – jscs
    Commented Jan 24, 2012 at 23:41
  • 5
    I'm curious why the chatters in question prefer the [cv-pls] tag rather than flagging a question and allowing it to show up in the stackoverflow.com/tools?s=1&tab=flags&daterange= flagging tools for everybody?
    – sarnold
    Commented Jan 25, 2012 at 1:25
  • 22
    @Josh, the tag isn't actually applied to the question, it's simply abused as formatting in the chat. Anyone silly enough to actually tag a question with that deserves to be beat with a paamayim nekudotayim.
    – Charles
    Commented Jan 25, 2012 at 1:58
  • @Charles: I'm glad to hear it; thanks for clearing that up.
    – jscs
    Commented Jan 25, 2012 at 2:12
  • 13
    @sarnold because flags are not for closevoting. besides, closevoted questions will show up in the tools section for everyone as well. the benefit of announcing them in chat is that the chances are higher for them to be closed promptly instead of the closevotes fading away because there wasnt enough people paying attention at the moment.
    – Gordon
    Commented Jan 25, 2012 at 12:04
  • 4
    Not to mention that some of those close-votes are even discussed in the PHP chat, e.g. if there isn't a better fitting answer etc. - it's not getting worse in any direction you fear from my point of view.
    – hakre
    Commented Jan 25, 2012 at 15:44
  • 3
    @Gordon: Indeed, but remember we can insta-close (and insta-reopen) questions at any time, so sometimes a flag is more appropriate. Not saying crowdsourcing close votes is inappropriate, of course...
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jan 25, 2012 at 16:42
  • @Gordon: Excellent explanation; combined with Charles's comment the tag isn't actually applied to the question I'm quite a bit happier. Thanks!
    – sarnold
    Commented Jan 25, 2012 at 23:07

7 Answers 7

61

I support the use of chat to coordinate close-voting wholeheartedly - one of the down-sides of the vote-to-close system has always been that questions often don't get closed or re-opened quickly enough. I used IRC for this purpose before chat.SE launched, and chat.SE, with oneboxing and transcript features, is even better suited.

That said, I recommend having some guidelines to avoid causing problems:

  • Be civil. It's always tempting to mock some of the poor-quality questions - and their authors - that show up on SO. Resist this impulse, especially if it starts to come out in comments on the posts themselves.

  • Welcome discussion on the merit of the proposed questions. If you don't understand why you're voting, don't vote. And if someone wants to drop in and debate with you, consider their arguments, so long as they're civil.

  • Don't delete duplicates. You can flag for a moderator to merge, flag individual answers when they're of poor quality, etc.

  • Be quick to edit. One huge advantage of real-time discussion is that you can coordinate editing efforts, perhaps removing the need to close at all. If you think you can salvage a question brought up for closing, say so - and if someone wants to edit, give them time to do so before jumping in. Naturally, close - edit - re-open is also a useful cycle that can be made much more efficient with real-time collaboration.

39

I cannot speak for everyone, but I always look at the question and decide for myself. I have withheld my vote on multiple occasions.

Note:

  • The tag is not actually applied to questions. That would be very abusive indeed. The tag is only used make it stand out in the room. It's also very obvious what is wanted.
  • The real problem is that there is no way to give a counter close-vote. Once the question is closed you can vote to re-open, but until then there is nothing you can do. This is an issue that has been brought up many times on meta. See How about a "Vote not to close" option to counter the "Vote to close"?
  • Nothing stops you from participating. The whole process is democratic. If you are in chat and someone posts a cv-pls you disagree with, then speak up. We're all peaceable folk.
10
  • 4
    Same for me. I always validate whether or not a close vote is warranted and if it is, I cast one. The [cv-ring] thus does not change anything about how many people have to agree (contrary to what OP says), it only provides a convenient way to find enough people to close (especially older) questions, without having to flag for mod attention.
    – NikiC
    Commented Jan 24, 2012 at 21:13
  • 7
    +1. Not being to vote not to close is, IMHO, a big problem.
    – John
    Commented Jan 24, 2012 at 21:24
  • 1
    I think this misses the point that such a tag is in use in the first place, which highlights that this is becoming some sort of machine, a solicitation for close-votes from automatons. Whether there are automatons to cast them, IMO, is a completely different problem. It's this cv-pls-kthxbyeee! approach that is a problem in itself.
    – Grant Thomas
    Commented Jan 25, 2012 at 10:09
  • 5
    @Mr.Disappointment And I think you miss my point: it is not kthxbye. I always read the question and decide for myself, as do most if not all of the other people. It is not automated; it is, however, highly effective. Commented Jan 25, 2012 at 14:52
  • @LeviMorrison You obviously miss my point: the individual isn't the problem. The fact that that's what you do is irrelevant.
    – Grant Thomas
    Commented Jan 25, 2012 at 14:55
  • 5
    @Mr.Disappointment You clearly are not familiar with the people involved. It is not automatic close-voting. Don't go around accusing people without proof. Come back when you find some and I'll gladly discuss it. Commented Jan 25, 2012 at 15:03
  • 6
    @Mr.Disappointment Please, if you don't know the exact proceedings of those close vote requests, do not try to discuss them. As Levi, Charles, PeeHaa, Gordon and myself already indicated there is no automation whatsoever involved and everybody decides for themselves. [cv-pls] is - as the tag already says - nothing more than a close voting request.
    – NikiC
    Commented Jan 25, 2012 at 15:19
  • And it is that request, not the persons, with which I take grievance. I clearly, (cleeearly_) dismissed (from the onset) that any one person was not the topic of issue. I'm unsure why you think otherwise.
    – Grant Thomas
    Commented Jan 25, 2012 at 15:48
  • @Mr.Disappointment sorry, but none of your comments made any sense to me. Feel free to join us in PHP chat to explain.
    – Gordon
    Commented Jan 25, 2012 at 15:58
  • 2
    OK, I think I might be 'wrong'.
    – Grant Thomas
    Commented Jan 25, 2012 at 19:42
25

While I am all for cleaning up questions that don't belong, are off topic, etc, I worry that this cv-pls method is becoming a powerhouse for quickly closing questions that only one or two people disagree with.

It still takes 5 people to vote. There have been occasions where I didnt follow a closevote and I have asked for closevotes which didnt result in questions being closed. As for the cv-pls tag itself, it started as a joke but became a convention to give better visibility to problematic questions. We also have and or combinations of those btw.

I don't think it's a healthy way of going about things. The request is posted, the high rep users swarm the question, and it gets shut down in seconds.

Which is actually a good thing because duplicates flow into PHP tag by the minute

However, my fear is that some of these users are voting to close questions largely because one of their "friends" said so.

Please find one that wasn't justified. Explain why you think it's unjustly closed. Convince us and we will reopen it. Just assuming it could eventually probably maybe happen is, well, just that: probably maybe.

It's hard to tell if these questions are being shut down because they don't belong here or because the high rep PHP users don't like it because it's too juvenile and "bully" it out.

We dont closevote without reason. And we dont bully people. But we expect them to do their homework as layed out in https://stackoverflow.com/questions/ask-advice. And I really dont see what's "hard to tell" about https://chat.stackoverflow.com/search?q=cv-pls&user=&room=11. The URLs make it fairly obvious already: duplicates, too localized, not a real question.

Often the questions are easily answered or class 101 questions. This doesn't disqualify them from being good questions. If they're duplicate or google-able etc, I understand, but it is occasionally not the case.

Again, please find one. The one we discussed in chat with you was easy to google and a duplicate. And I disagree about 101 questions being good questions. Some questions are too simple

An individual compared this cv process to be the equivalent of an extra mod, but I think mods are appointed for a reason.

It's not an extra mod. None of the frequent people in the chat are (as of this writing) mods or have mod powers. We occasionally get visited by mods though. They never took offense in our doing. Also, one of the core ideas of StackOverflow is that it is community moderated. It is not the mods who close questions most of the time, but the regular users. This is why we get CV privileges in the first place. We simply exert this privileges in an organized way through the chatroom.

This is just my opinion. I tend to stick out for the little guy so when I see a question get shot down a minute after it's asked just because the asker is new to development I can't help but feel bad for him.

I can just invite you to stay in the chat for a week and see how and what we closevote. You will likely change your opinion then.

2
  • 19
    "We occasionally get visited by mods though. They never took offense in our doing." I can neither confirm nor deny this :P
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jan 24, 2012 at 21:40
  • 12
    I'll confirm it. I'm not saying the majority of questions linked in the room are extremely smelly, but quite a few of them are. Duplication within that tag is also an issue. PHP is a good example of a thriving community centered not just around SO, but taking a proactive interest in the tag. The reason that moderators frequent that chat room is because the users in there actively ask for our help to improve the quality of the tag. If it was a #somafia ring, we would have shut it down by now.
    – user50049
    Commented Jan 25, 2012 at 18:01
16

I'm part of the regulars in the chat and since the others already added all the arguments I thought I'll add some data and numbers:

Since Apr 5 we used quite regular to denote questionable questions. I'd guess the comment of questions we linked to "maybe this should be moderated" is double that. I'd say it's a fair guess.

  • That means 9 month we discussed 285 questions.
  • Multiply that by 2 because we might not "chat-tag" everything.
  • 285 *2 / 270

Thats about 2 questions per day. Maybe I'm off on the guess and it's even more so lets be generous:

For the sake of the argument lets say we close/discuss 5 questions a day. I don't know how to query the distribution so for the sake of the argument lets say:

  • 3xduplicate (how do i format a data in php??!?, what is the current time, how do i extract the link in a href="" with regex ? That last question alone should be 10% of that traffic
  • One not constructive (which framework is the best?, why is php so stupid, which IDE is best IDE?)
  • One not a real question: (PHP is broken when I have syntax errors and error reporting turned off)

The PHP Tag got 77309 questions in those 9 months!

That means if we really closed 2500 questions we touched 3% of the questions and I was really really generous with the numbers. I expect the number to be more of 0.5% to 1%.

PHP is, imho, the "I don't know what I'm doing but I want to do web" language and the amount of "Fix my code" and other trivial questions is presumably a LOT higher.

In that time period was the #4 highest traffic tag on StackOverflow outranked by java, c# and android. Tags where there is, again imho, a higher change that people actually know what they are doing.

We need a way of coordinating that amount of traffic and we found one in the chat.

The PHP tag is dying from duplicates that get lots of upvotes and pollute the site with extremely trivial questions covering up the good ones.

Without that coordination the clean up efforts would be a lot more painful.


On a personal side note: I'd say @Gordon deserves a gold badges for the amount of deduplication work he does instead of copy/pasting answers and getting at least 30k more rep from that than he has at the moment :P

5
  • <3 for personal sidenote
    – Gordon
    Commented Jan 26, 2012 at 18:30
  • 1
    You are now at 966 is the that type of number you were imagining?!
    – amanaP lanaC A nalP A naM A
    Commented Mar 21, 2012 at 21:57
  • Actually it's way less then 885 but I'm not going to strip the discussions and duplicates for answering that suggestive question :)
    – edorian
    Commented Mar 22, 2012 at 10:09
  • @edorian it still is waaay more than ur predictions.
    – amanaP lanaC A nalP A naM A
    Commented Mar 22, 2012 at 13:04
  • 1
    +1 on the "I don't know what I'm doing but I want to do web". Everybody is a beginner at some point, and I'd like to think nobody in PHP (or anywhere) is a glaring elitist, but this very type of question is the noise that pollutes the PHP tag (along with "fix my code" as you mentioned) Having had an opportunity to regularly peruse a few major language tags on SO, I don't see this same noise at the same volume as PHP elsewhere. It needs to be controlled with a coordinated and mature effort.
    – Dan Lugg
    Commented Apr 29, 2013 at 2:10
13

that only one or two people disagree with.

It still needs more than 2 people to close it. It's not like the reasons to cv aren't validated. I can only talk for myself, but when I see a I always checkout if it is indeed valid / I indeed agree with it.

Also often a nice/helpful comment is posted why the question isn't a good question or whatever reason.

10

First, I understand your concern; questions should primarily be answered. However, I see Stack Overflow's mission not just as providing a place for your questions to be asked but as the premier means to provide quality answers. The majority of these questions I see linked are obvious duplicates or have solid, quality answers already. Duplicative and low quality questions can hinder the ability to get good information and negatively impacts the usefulness of the site.

Second, what is really supposed to be done about this issue? It certainly isn't feasible to censor question links in chat or discussion on whether the question is appropriate for a given Stack Exchange site. With the current close-vote system requiring 5 votes I don't see how 1 or 2 people in a chat room have a major impact on quality questions being removed.

Third, there is a chat room on meta specifically for discussing closing questions/answers. This is indicative that SO, at the very least, supports the community discussing whether questions/answers are relevant and should be closed or reopened. I also would like to emphasize that the tag is not being added to the question or answer, rather the tag is used in the chat room to indicate that a question might be a duplicate or of inferior quality and should be reviewed for a close vote. Nothing more and nothing less than a means to communicate an intent within the context of the chat rooms.

Ultimately, I understand your concern in not wanting good questions to be closed unnecessarily but I don't see how to stop the community from discussing with itself whether a question should be closed. Furthermore, I don't believe it would be ethical or proper to stifle these conversations; communication breeds community, cleans up the site and is what Stack Exchange is about. The PHP chat room is not closed and is open to anybody wishing to join in the conversation.


Seeing as how this has come into the limelight and we're getting more people in chat asking about the process I posted a gist explaining what's going on when the tag is used. One of the owners of the chat room has decided to pin the message and it will be available to all users coming into the chat.

I really truly feel that is being used in the PHP chat room to make Stack Overflow better. However, I can see how it could turn into a device that fosters abuse. The best method to prevent that abuse is community involvement.

8

A closevoting gang is indeed not a good approach. However there isn't currently any abuse or statistically significant misapplication. And I would say it's strictly a temporary phenomenon.


One problem of the php tag is that many even high rep users aren't diligent about closevoting. Some even seem to refuse. Of course the closevoting privilege is a privilege, not an obligation. And there are other reasons to opt out (lack of time et al).

Yet php is a tag ghetto, as it was once pointed out. And the amount of subaverage quality posts is astounding. Half the incoming daily questions could be closed, if you wanted to be anal about duplicates. It's just super tedious. Which is why I think the current cv-pls chat ring is a good thing. Any help is good help, if we don't want SO to succumb under off-topic questions or repetition.

I have vague memories of a few unfortunate closevotes that can be ascribed to the php chat suggestions. But many many many many many more closevote mishaps occur naturally, by ordinary drive-by closevoting. I would actually assume the discussion in the chat would lead to more coherent and reasoned voting patterns.

  • It's true that many newbie questions get closed too quickly. There is always a bit of mistrust against them, so often even small formulation quirks can quicken their demise.

  • However, questions can be reopened at any time. If the asker just comes back with an edit or comment, people are more than willing to do so. The current UI for reopening isn't sufficient. It doesn't happen as quickly as closing I'm afraid. May need flagging. (Now that it isn't bound to flag-weight-whoring anymore I will actually do so). And the [closed] stamp on questions is another deterrant. But still, the possibility and community interest for reopening is there.

  • Some 101 questions can be answered with a oneliner. Those often get closed as NARQ. Or at least they should - if they are that trivial. Because oneliners aren't actually good answers. And so isn't the question then. (Closevoting over shallow content.)

  • It's also not widely understood that closevoting can protect the little guy. While it is primarily seen as a penalty (for quality control), it can sometimes avert downvote shitstorms.

    Downvotes and closevotes often go hand in hand. But they are distinct features. And people shouldn't pile 10 downvotes on a single question - but more evenly distribute them. (It's also not a real penalty, but just meant for question and answer ordering).

Anyway, I believe your concern is spot on. But the current cv-ring isn't a disservice to the overall content and community quality. And I do believe in practice it doesn't impact the newcomers too much. (You should be able to stomach one closed question if there is an explanation, link or comment.)

2
  • 15
    "Half the incoming daily questions could be closed": that's optimistic. If someone would suggest to start all PHP questions closed and having to be opened before they could be answered s/he had my vote ;)
    – Gordon
    Commented Jan 26, 2012 at 18:29
  • @Gordon Despite the size of the pre-post review queue that would create, I think that's almost too brilliant an idea. I'd gladly dedicate an hour of my day to helping.
    – Dan Lugg
    Commented Apr 29, 2013 at 2:15

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