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In July 2014 Shog9 proposed Stack Overflow Academy on Area 51. I was skeptical and thought it was sort of a joke. The idea that anyone would go to yet another Q&A site in order to ask a question on Stack Overflow seemed crazy. But the more I thought about it, the more I liked the proposal. Over the last year, I've had almost identical conversations with several programmers I've met in real life:

Them: What do you do?

Me: Have you ever heard of Stack Overflow?

Them: Oh yeah! I love that site! It helps me get past problems all the time.

Me: Cool. Do you have an account?

Them: Nope.

Digging into their reasons boils down, more often than not, to being unable to formulate questions that meets the standards of our site. These are not bad programmers; they are unskilled at debugging and/or don't understand the expectations we have for questions. So when I looked at the list of example Stack Overflow Academy questions, I wished we had a place for people to ask them.

In my estimation, Meta Stack Overflow is the logical place for people to get help with formulating a question. But meta-questions about tend not to go well here. The good news is that they did worse before the split. But the bad news is that I still wouldn't tell my programmer friends to ask here for fear they'd have a rough time of it. Splitting off these sorts of questions into a brand new meta site just moves the problem to a new venue.

So I'm closing down our Stack Overflow Academy experiment and proposing the question:

Can Meta Stack Overflow constructively answer the example questions about debugging and asking strategy?

Remember the use case: people who would like to ask good programming questions on Stack Overflow, but don't currently have the needed skills to do so. In other words, is there anything we can do to reliably get results like the answer to: What can I do to improve this question?

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    I actually quite like this idea, but there's one important thing we also need to consider if/when we do this: making it highly visible to the people that need it. Meta gets nowhere near the traffic that the main site gets, so if we want this to seriously make a difference we need to work out how to get more eyes on meta - or at least these specific questions/answers.
    – JonK
    Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 19:45
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    I would consider tagging this as featured, because it's kind of a big deal.
    – user456814
    Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 19:50
  • 9
    +100 For not thinking that the way to solve issues with MSO is to disguise MSO as a slightly different URL, and for not wanting a site where every question is a duplicate of something already covered in the help center, a duplicate of something asked on a meta, or directly appropriate for a meta.
    – Jason C
    Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 19:52
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    Personally, I think this one will be... Challenging. If people are asking how to ask a good question here, then chances are they're gonna get shut down fast, currently. It's going to take a bit of mental training for the meta-goers in my mind. At the same time... Don't you need 5 rep to access meta? So if someone wants help with their first question and can't go talk to someone else irl for assistance... What then?
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 20:17
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    The "big deal" here isn't the SOA proposal or its closure. It's the discussion among the SO community about whether or not MSO can have an educational component as Jon describes. That, I think, is deserving of the [featured] tag. (cc @JasonC)
    – Adam Lear StaffMod
    Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 20:52
  • 4
    @Kendra The 5-rep requirement is a thing, but it's a fairly minor technical problem that can be solved in a number of ways if we have a solid reason to do so and a plan.
    – Adam Lear StaffMod
    Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 20:52
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    I'm left asking, "Why isn't this already happening via comments on low quality posts?" Shouldn't experienced users already be offering help and suggestions via comment? Even if a user doesn't know where to go, a little chatter in the comments between an experienced user and someone who is actually trying can go a long way to narrowing the problem and improving the question. On the other side, this assumes that the asker is interested in improving their question. If they're unresponsive, perhaps they're not?
    – jpmc26
    Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 22:12
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    @jpmc26 this has been talked about to death in multiple places. Stack Overflow currently has 3.4 million registered users, and receives a flood of 7000-8000 new questions per day. Most of the handful of veteran users on this site aren't going to pamper each and every question, they're going to quickly process them and move on.
    – user456814
    Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 22:16
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    @jpmc26 as of this comment, there are 11k reviews in close vote and 74 in low quality posts. There are many opportunities for people to do so, if they desire. But also with so many people capable many of them just let someone else do it. (this is not an attack) consider that if you rarely review in places where one can participate in this a little bit, how can you hope to expect others to do it?
    – user289086
    Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 23:50
  • 4
    would be interesting to try (possibly as a first step to find out whether a separate site could be feasible) a dedicated tag here at MSO, like stack-overflow-academy
    – gnat
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 10:10
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    I find it strange that the Area51 proposal was closed before this discussion here.
    – juergen d
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 10:23
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    The academy should be for everyone. There are a lot of people that thinks code (proof of effort) is mandatory on all questions. And there are other issues as well.
    – BrunoLM
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 12:01
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    "These are not bad programmers; they are unskilled at debugging" sounds like a contradiction to me. Knowing how to find out what goes wrong appears to me to be one of the main abilities a programmer needs to master. Who teaches these people programming?
    – A. Donda
    Commented Aug 16, 2014 at 23:50
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    @A. Donda: As I wrote that, I wondered if anyone would notice. You are, of course, correct. But how did we learn debugging? I took three formal programming classes and debugging was not taught. But it is learned. And I learned by fixing my own bugs, those of my colleagues, and answering questions on Usenet.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Aug 17, 2014 at 3:30
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    Case in point for having to re-train Meta-goers. Read through the comment string. Closing as dupe for questions asking for help could be a real killing point on making Meta work for this.
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 19, 2014 at 13:53

22 Answers 22

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As others have pointed out, we need to change the voting culture on Meta for this to work. Take for example the following questions:

All of them asking why questions were poorly received, all of them significantly downvoted on Meta. I know there are counterpoints in upvoted questions like this or this, but I've seen many, many cases of people coming here for support and being downvoted for a perceived lack of research effort.

Someone struggling with asking good questions on Stack Overflow will probably have pretty rough questions on Meta (like the initial version of this question). In addition to the same quality standards being imposed here as on Stack Overflow proper, downvotes on Meta can also mean disagreement with implicit suggestions or arguments made in these support questions. That can make downvoting even more severe here than on the main site.

These downvotes often cause things to spiral out of control, with already confused users getting frustrated and angry, and many of them quit the site after that point. More than a few have degenerated into trolls or rage quits that we then had to clean up after. We need to change this voting culture for Meta to become a true support site for new users.

Frankly, I think we need to take a hard look at voting on Meta in general, because I think things have been a little too harsh in this regard for a while now. People should be able to come here to get help without being massively downvoted or ridiculed for not reading through pages of support material.

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    There's really no good reason why a person coming here for support and making a clear request for question guidance should be downvoted. Questions about being downvoted... Well, there must be a canonical post on here somewhere that we can close such questions against, but those don't really deserve a downvote either, unless they're rants.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 23:46
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    Forcing a change of long-ingrained culture and behavior is difficult. Instead, you could enforce a change in voting behavior using a technical solution: disable downvoting (or voting in general) on questions tagged "asking-advice", or even on the support tag itself.
    – user456814
    Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 23:46
  • 38
    @RobertHarvey one of the long-standing policies that I've learned about from being active here on Meta for the first time this year has been that "users are allowed to vote however they damn well please, as long as they don't target a specific user". I don't think asking people to "please vote nicely" is going to change anything...people will continue to vote "however they damn well please", unless you disable the mechanisms by which they can vote on these type of questions in the first place.
    – user456814
    Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 23:51
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    Of course, if an angry user tags his rant with support to disable voting...yeah, that's going to suck for the rest of us. There's always the option of voting to close though, so...why not?
    – user456814
    Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 23:53
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    Disable voting for bug and support tags. It makes no sense when people vote on those. As for rants, we always edit them. While editing, we will fix the tags, in case someone tags as support to avoid downvotes. Discussion is used for burinate requests, where we need voting, so voting should be enabled. Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 4:37
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    @InfiniteRecursion The two DDOS attacks that took down SE were purported from a group of disgruntled users trying to get revenge,
    – Mysticial
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 4:59
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    Why is voting == "ridiculed"? Ridiculing is bad; voting is good.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 9:46
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    @CodyGray downvotes often go hand in hand with ridicule (or at the very least, they must feel that way to new users being mass downvoted here on Meta).
    – user456814
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 9:48
  • 6
    I really don't think blocking (down-)voting on specific tags will solve anything, it will just move the problem. I believe some people will instead vote to close, post non-constructive comments, etc. If there's an entirely different site for educating SO users, those who don't want to read questions with people asking for help about posting better SO questions won't go there and will therefore not downvote as much. Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 11:12
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    @CodyGray When I was a new user I was desperate for rep. Every downvote was a huge slap in the face, every upvote was a victory. Now I don't care about downvotes, for the same reason that a millionaire doesn't care if their coffee is slightly more expensive than yesterday.
    – AndrewC
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 14:24
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    @CodyGray - Even experienced users on Stack Overflow take downvotes personally. Meta is a place where we could explain that downvotes on questions aren't insults, but as soon as they start getting downvoted here (particularly when presented with comments like "did you even bother to research this before asking?") things very quickly spiral out of control. People get downvoted on SO, come here and get downvoted, start getting angry and argumentative, people respond in kind, and this culminates in a rage quit. Flameouts like this happen far too often, and I wonder if there's a way to stop this.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 14:32
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    @BryceAtNetwork23 - You're talking about something completely different there: meta.stackexchange.com/a/220580/135615 . Downvotes on SO are not bad, and are needed to measure quality of content. I'm saying that maybe people are too ready to downvote legitimate support requests here, and that perhaps applying the same sort of strict quality measures here as on SO proper is not how Meta should operate.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 14:56
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    @BradLarson I find that a pretty large percentage of the meta downvotes come from the posts where the user isn't asking a constructive meta question. They come here and phrase the question such that they feel they were mis-treated for having their low quality question downvoted/closed. People that recognize that they did something wrong and are sincerely seeking help improving their question, in particular those that clearly did put some effort in attempting to improve their question and determining what makes a good question, tend to make up those meta questions getting upvotes.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 14:58
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    @BryceAtNetwork23 Not downvoting low quality content isn't going to make the site better. It's going to make the site worse. This topic is how to help users respond more constructively to the (correct and valuable) feedback that they have been given, not to stop giving feedback or to intentionally give incorrect feedback just to make people feel better about contributing low quality content.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 15:01
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    @Mysticial When they are asked constructively, they tend to get constructive answers; when they're asked unconstructively, they tend to get unconstructive responses. When people come here to rant about how bad the system is instead of actually asking for help, it shouldn't be that surprising that they don't actually get a whole lot of help.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 18, 2014 at 16:09
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In some way or another, I knew that this was coming.

I was foolish to think that the proposal would get to the commitment phase before it did, though.

The Problem

I really think that Stack Overflow Academy was a good solution to a messy problem: how do we teach people to use the site without them knowing how to use the site? Voting on Meta is very strong in comparison to the main site: the people who are active here are the people who know how to use this site. We vote to express opinion rather than usefulness and we sometimes allow our emotions to get the best of us, which can affect both the main site and the users who visit it.

That kind of place is not conducive to the education of new users who are learning how to use the Q&A model for the first time. In fact, nothing about Stack Exchange is, and that's partially by design.

Background

Let me explain with a story. I first came across Stack Overflow in search results as an eager 13-year-old learning the magic and wonder that is programming. In the two years that passed between then and the time of my joining five months ago, a lot has changed. I've learned and gained experience and appreciation for programming and technology in general. However, I never really thought much about Stack Overflow: it was just another Yahoo! Answers that I encountered in Google searches for common errors or concepts.

It never occurred to me that Stack Overflow is a community full of people who willingly give up hours and hours (and hours) of their day(/week/month/year) to answer other people's programming questions. Then there's the Stack Exchange network, which is full of people who are willing to do the same for all kinds of other topics.

That's the kind of thing you don't realize from the outside, when you land on a page from search results, read it, and leave. There's no way for us to indicate to people what Stack Exchange is and why it's so amazing. When I found myself here five months ago, pressing the "sign up" button, it wasn't because I wanted to beg for help from someone. It wasn't because I wanted to say thank you or contribute an answer to a problem I'd solved.

It was because I just had to improve the code that some guy wrote in an answer.

Well, my edit was rejected.

I wasn't angry about it (mostly because I didn't know it was rejected until five minutes ago when I checked). I just kept going. I decided to ask a simple question. I waited.

And waited.

And waited.

6 days later, it got an upvote. Wow, I thought, someone actually thinks my question is useful. I started to answer a question or two, gather some badges, and make a few edits. That little number next to my name started growing. All the while, that question I asked started gaining more upvotes. Two months later, I answered my own question, stating that what I was trying to do was essentially impossible. But then, someone comes along and answers my question. While he did confirm that what I was asking is impossible, he provided a way to make it possible, which is what programming is all about. I was amazed. I started answering more and more questions, gaining reputation, and participating here on Meta. I've risen to become the fourth most active user here, and I recently crossed a threshold of 2k reputation, giving me quite a few new powers to help keep the community in line and contribute more.

Throughout all of that, I haven't asked another question. "Why?" is a question you may be thinking. "You got an answer to your first." Yes, reader, I did. However, I've learned a lot since then. It's not because I didn't have questions and it's not because I didn't need answers. It's because one of the things I've learned is that asking a question is terrifying. It's shameful. It's dangerous. It's inhuman.

While many of us know that those things aren't true, it's the impression we give if you make one too many mistakes. In my opinion, it's not that hard to take a little tour or read through some Help Center articles, so I did those things. I put effort into my question and my answers. However, I'm a rare case.

Most people don't care how their questions appear, why they appear, or even whether they're banned. For many, all they're looking for is an answer to their question. "Banned? So what? Just make a new account and ask again: maybe someone'll answer it before those evil 'Meta police' close the question for being 'unclear' (whatever that means)."

The Divide

In all seriousness, it's a problem: if we want this community to persist, we have to remove the perceived divide between high-rep users and low-rep ones. In my experience, that hasn't been a problem: the people here have been extremely welcoming, both on Meta and the main site. That may be because I followed the rules. I was lucky: I did "what you're supposed to do."

The truth is that the (very, very, very) vast majority of people simply don't care about doing "what you're supposed to do". Even many 20k+ users simply don't care: they're fed up with the "new Stack Overflow" and yearn for the good old days where a question with hint of subjectivity or humor could stay open for more than 10 minutes.

Since I came here, I've been calling myself "a (relatively) new user". I think it's time to stop that: I am not a new user anymore; I know the moderation policies, the customs, and the standards of Stack Overflow. I know how this place runs and how it's supposed to run. I know about the pessimism and the rage and the horror that the front page can incite. Anyone can learn these things, but it's a gradual process.

Meta is a crucial part of this process: you can gain insight into the workings of the site and meet the people who keep it on its feet, but I think that there's something inherently wrong with treating it as a place for "training" (if you want to call it that) new users.

The Solution

I know that you've been "working on a solution" to this for months.

I know that Stack Overflow Academy was only one possible solution to "The Problem."

I know that a lot of people were in strong opposition to this proposal.

However, I can't be the only one who thinks that the Academy was (and still is) a good idea. It allows people like those of us who regularly participate in Meta discussion to help new users understand and adapt to the Q&A model: we have to work together to prove that Stack Overflow is not a forum; it's not just another place where you can drop a poorly formatted and unclear post and walk away. In fact, if you do, people will even go to the trouble of editing it for you to fix errors and clean up your post.

Why Not Meta?

"So," you ask, "if it's Meta users who are fit to do this, why can't we just do it on Meta?"

Because Meta is for discussion about the site and its policies. It's where we come to resolve edge cases and decide what an edge case is in the first place. It's where we, the people who use the site, communicate with the people who run/moderate the site. And the best part is that there isn't a clear line between us and them. No, in fact, those two are the same in many cases. Meta is not the place to teach new users because teaching new users is not what Meta is for. That sounds either obvious or crazy, but hear me out.

You could argue that since policies are dynamic, the place where we teach policies to new users should be right alongside where we decide changes in policy. The problem is that it's difficult to explain things to people when you don't entirely understand them yourself. That's the crux of it, right there. Say all you want about Stack Overflow and its Meta policy, but you cannot dispute the fact that the system works. Considering the 3.4 million users that this website has, something has to be working, or this place would be in ruins.

You've touched on "The Problem" here:

Digging into their reasons boils down, more often than not, to being unable to formulate questions that meets the standards of our site. These are not bad programmers; they are unskilled at debugging and/or don't understand the expectations we have for questions. So when I looked at the list of example SO Academy questions, I wished we had a place for people to ask them.

That's also a major part of "The Problem." We have users who are willing to improve, and they are coming to Meta more and more commonly these days, prompting highly upvoted comments like this:

+1 for wanting to learn, and not going on to ask the same old way, but wanting to ask better. that is what its all about

However, these users have no place to ask but Meta; Meta should be used for talking about the site, not talking about how to help specific users get better at asking/answering questions. That on its own is why Stack Overflow Academy was/is a good idea: it allows those of us who want to help to do so and those who don't want to "deal with" new users and would rather just talk about the site talk about the site.

There's a reason why we have Programmers, Code Review, Software Recommendations, Programming Puzzles and Code Golf, and Stack Overflow. People like different things, and they always will: opinions are important, and while what the Academy stands for (teaching new users, understanding the Stack Exchange model, etc.) falls under the scope of what Meta stands for (policies, site discussion, etc.), they are not the same thing and should not be treated as such.

As I hear these predictions of low-quality, poorly researched questions, all I can think of is that we already have those now, on both Stack Overflow and Meta Stack Overflow. We would handle them there the same way we handle them here: by creating a strong list of general questions that we can use for duplicates while still allowing a little variation for the sake of teaching and help. If we want to help new users, we have to help them: we can't go halfway, or the effort is wasted. Closing, deletion, and other general moderation would be in place just as much as they are on any other Stack Exchange site.

Again, most of the people reading this are active members of the Stack Exchange Network, and as users people who are crucial to the success of this site community, it is our job to welcome new members and teach them.

In the end, it doesn't matter to me how we do that, but rather that we do, and I am proud to say that I am lucky enough to have been able to become a part of this amazing place and I hope that others will be able to do the same.


TL;DR

I'm taking an opinion somewhat opposite to and somewhat alongside Jon's, but I think that Meta.SO is the wrong place to talk about these matters.

(If you want more than that, you'll have to read the whole thing.)

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    Woah dude, long answer...consider using more headers...and boiling everything down to be shorter and more succinct, more to the point.
    – user456814
    Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 21:44
  • @Cupcake Too late to categorize; I might go back and see what I can do in terms of sorting.
    – AstroCB
    Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 21:46
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    "It's because one of the things I've learned is that asking a question is terrifying. It's shameful. It's dangerous. It's inhuman." Darn, I'm inhuman on SO. Oh well- I am redeemed through Arqade. :) And I actually read most of that by the time you got the TL;DR up. I shouldn't have bothered asking for it.
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 21:53
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    I was amazed too, the first time I realized that there was a community and so many hard working people behind SO. I had signed up to write an answer, the current answer was wrong. I earned 2k in my first month so that I could get full edit. And like you, I actively participate on Meta to learn the rules. I think a lot of users like me can identify with your answer. Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 4:53
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    Whoa, you're 15 years old? You write better than many of us older than you...
    – user541686
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 23:42
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    @Mehrdad I'm 16 now (I joined 5 months ago), but thank you.
    – AstroCB
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 23:43
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    I've added a bit of formatting to your post. Feel free to change things back if you don't like it. Commented Aug 16, 2014 at 10:40
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    The only question I really have is: is there really a significant number of people who genuinely try to write good questions, but can't do so? As you note yourself, most people don't care at all how their question is received. IMO, mentoring only really works with those who want to make a good impression on the community, but don't know how to. Commented Aug 16, 2014 at 10:51
  • @Qantas94Heavy Thanks: that helps. A few months ago, I would have said no, but there have been quite a few people coming to Meta for this kind of guidance recently. Again, it's not the best place for it, but it does show that there are people willing to learn (which I believe Shog said somewhere else is why they even began to consider a system like this in the first place).
    – AstroCB
    Commented Aug 16, 2014 at 12:31
  • I feel compelled to mention that that one edit is not an improvement. Adding the missing parenthesis and correcting "i.e." are ok, but the rest of the changes are wrong: they change the behaviour of the code. Commented Aug 18, 2014 at 13:39
  • @R.MartinhoFernandes Yes, I know. That's my point: it's the first thing I did on Stack Overflow and I didn't know how to edit yet.
    – AstroCB
    Commented Aug 18, 2014 at 13:45
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    The term for the kind of learning and teaching that you describe here is "legitimate peripheral participation". We need a little more support for folks who are brand new and trying to learn how to be part of this community. I'm still new and learning a lot. Not all people who are new will be taking a lot of time to learn about the site before asking a question, but perhaps we can help shape their experience in a positive way by being supportive. I suspect if there was a way to indicate that supporting newcomers was important (either through badges or increased points), it could help matters. Commented Aug 20, 2014 at 5:00
  • @PrairieProf I agree, but the site is already designed to work that way: all we really need to do is find the people who want to learn and get the people who are willing to teach them to come here (or wherever we decide to do this) and do so.
    – AstroCB
    Commented Aug 20, 2014 at 17:08
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    @PrairieProf You're thinking of the First Posts and Late Answers queues, which is a privilege awarded at 500 reputation. However, there is a very important way for new users to help other new users, and it is one of the most powerful privileges you can have: participate in Meta. It is awarded at only 5 reputation, which can be achieved with only two approved suggested edits. If you want to help out, you can take a look at the support tag.
    – AstroCB
    Commented Aug 20, 2014 at 17:44
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    +1 for the first sentence of the first paragraph of the Why Not Meta? section. That, that, a thousand times that. Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 20:34
56

I'd rather see changes to the User Interface to bring together users seeking help with those willing to provide help.

Another Q&A site is too much.

Why?

  • I don't see the questions being very reusable
  • It doesn't feel as one-on-one as something like a chat
  • It's yet another account/SE site to login to and monitor

Proposal

You already have a great chat system, go make use of it.

Provide newbies with a way of saying "I would like someone to tell me if my question is OK before I post it"

Provide veteran users with a way of saying "I'm feeling like helping newbies today with using the system, so let me go see who needs help [ideally in a specific tag]"

Match them up in a view that includes

  • A chat room
  • A view of the question being discussed (possibly editable by either party?)

How it would work

  • Veteran user point of view

    I envision a page I could go to that lists all the users currently active/online and seeking help, perhaps filterable by tags, and a way to review their initial question/post and join them if I feel like helping them out.

  • New user point of view

    I envision a new user coming to SO to ask a question (perhaps a friend recommended them), writing up their question and wondering "is this an OK question", and seeing a button to ask "Is my question OK before I post it".

    This would open a chat room somewhere on the same "Ask Question" page, and provide them with a bit of additional reading material while they wait such as SO Question Checklist or the How to Ask page.

    The question should still remain editable, and if the user posts their question at any time, their chat session would also get closed or removed from the public view.

Notes

  • It also has an added bonus of allowing us to give those who take the time to help mentor others in the use of their SE site extra rep/badges on the main site they are participating in, rather than in another disjointed site.

  • I think new users would get more actively engaged in the site in the long run if they talk to an actual person one-on-on versus the communication with drive-by answerers/commenters on their post.

  • We would have to be careful to make it clear to the users that we are offering them help with reviewing their question before posting, and not with their actual question itself.

  • We could probably provide this feature to users of closed questions too (with some limitations to avoid abuse), so they could get help on how to format their post to get it reopened.

The whole point of this suggestion is to encourage mentoring of new members in the community so they can become the community of high-rep users in the future.

I'm sure we would see a decrease in low-quality posts as well, however to me the long-term goal of this proposal would be to engage, educate, and encourage the next generation of "high rep" users to keep the site healthy and sustainable.

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    The view you're describing makes me thing of Google Drive... And as I have a lot of experience with collaborative efforts via Drive, I think that kind of a system could actually be very, very helpful.
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 15:29
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    Hmm yeah, this actually isn't a bad idea. This kind of help does tend to require active engagement, so chat might be a good place for it to occur. A "I need help" link next to their question for new users is a very intriguing proposal. (Naturally, I think these questions should still be on-topic on Meta for those who choose not to use the chat feature.)
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 15:38
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    This could be done fairly easily, I think - and it'd be best as an extension of our existing "continue this conversation to chat" feature: if the OP and one other user each post two or more messages to a question within a fairly short period of time (say, an hour) just create a chatroom immediately and tether it to the question somehow - maybe even replace the entire comment section with an inline chatroom. Grant the OP permission to talk in that room, invite the two to hash out whatever's going on, and we're good to go - the system already cleans up such chatrooms when they go dormant.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 20:41
  • 3
    @Shog9 That's not a bad start, but I was thinking more along the lines of a place for new users to get help before posting their question, and where veteran users could quickly and easily (and without needing to browse questions) find users that are already working to become a good new member of the community. (As a side note, these new users would be more likely to read links given to them while they're waiting in a chat room for someone else to come join them)
    – Rachel
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 20:50
  • 2
    That, unfortunately, is where the value of a separate site comes in; with any sort of setup like this, you want to provide some small hurdle to overcome to ensure that folks are serious about learning. Asking folks to formulate a question at least gives us something to work off of when deciding whether or not to try assisting them - see my comment here
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 21:14
  • 7
    A big Get help with this question in chat would be a dynamite feature. Create a new chatroom tethered to the pending question such that veterans could jump in. Bonus points if we could "group" these chatrooms somehow. "Newbie help chatrooms - 12 active, 3 still waiting for someone to help them" Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 21:40
  • 3
    At first sight, "Get help with this question in chat" seems to be a great feature. But, we have to be certain that participants know that chat room is really to discuss the question. Not to provide answers. Maybe we should enforce that only (relative) veteran are allowed to trigger that feature? Or restrict the chat room to OP and its mentor? Commented Aug 16, 2014 at 21:15
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    The only problem is how do we ensure that whatever ensues in chat actually makes its way back into the question? For instance, suppose the two parties actually solve the problem in chat? Where's the incentive to focus on the Q&A? Commented Aug 17, 2014 at 0:16
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    @SylvainLeroux You bring up a good point there, we'd need to make sure that whatever verbiage we use would make it clear that we are offer the user help with reviewing their question before posting, and not help with their question itself.
    – Rachel
    Commented Aug 17, 2014 at 0:16
  • 1
    @jmort253 SO/SE is a successful example of gamification. I'm absolutely not an expert in that area, but I believe if we want to create a trend (i.e.: users behaving "as-we-hope" most of the time), it would have to work at the reward/penalty level. Given our specific case "Get help with this question in chat", there might be some kind of reward both for the OP and her mentor (1) for having improved the question and/or (2) for propagating back an eventual answer to the question page if it was solved during the chat session. Commented Aug 18, 2014 at 7:47
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    @SylvainLeroux The whole point of this question and proposal is to mentor new users so they can eventually become the "high-rep" users of the future. I wouldn't want new users to only use such a feature for a rep reward, I'd want them to use it because they actually have an interest in helping out on the site. Similarly, I would only want veteran users using the feature if they actually had an interest in helping new users, and do not have the primary goal of cleaning up the site.
    – Rachel
    Commented Aug 18, 2014 at 11:57
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    I envision a new user writing up their question and wondering "is this an OK question" - call me a cynic, but I can't see that happening. I think most people would simply press the "ask Question" button without questioning themselves; and the ones that do question themselves are usually not the ones who need any substantial help, as they are more inclined to read through the help center and related resources. Maybe people start questioning themselves after their first questions have been closed, but it's too late by then. Making this mandatory for new users would have a better effect IMO.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Aug 18, 2014 at 12:30
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    @Rachel I reject the premise that such a system is even required in the first place. If someone wants to become an active, contributing member of the SO community, they have many resources already available; your system might catch the few users for whom these resources are not enough, but I think these are so few that implementing such a system would be a colossal waste of time. I'd rather stop the crap by making such a system mandatory for new users, and only let them post their question to SO if it passes the mentoring stage - thus they have to care or they're not getting answers.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Aug 18, 2014 at 13:59
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    @jmort253 We would want the veteran users using the system to avoid giving answers in chat, however if the chat leads to the OP realizing their solution, then that's fine too. Its either one less rtfm or too-localized question to worry about, or the veteran user can encourage the user to post anyways to share the knowledge. In either case, the new user will most likely come away with a better understanding of SE overall goal for the sites, and will likely become a better contributor in the future.
    – Rachel
    Commented Aug 18, 2014 at 16:26
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    One of the biggest problems I see is that when you work with a user to improve the question by asking them clarifying questions in comments you get yelled at and told to go to chat. I have no interest in chat, besides the fact that I already have multiple other venues where people ask me things live, it doesn't work if there are time zone issues, doesn't respect that I might not be able to stop whatever else I'm doing during the day to have a live conversation, and doesn't respect that I don't want to build a personal relationship with strangers.
    – Elin
    Commented Aug 24, 2014 at 13:15
37

You're asking two questions here:

  1. Can we make this meta site work for mentoring?

  2. Can Meta Stack Overflow constructively answer the example questions about debugging and asking strategy?

The answer to #1 is yes. We've both seen it work, and frankly it works reasonably well... for teaching folks about Stack Overflow, the site, the culture, the people, the policies, even some of the idiosyncrasies of various subcultures.

But the answer to #2 is no - not without substantial changes to how it currently operates.

And not because of these downvotes everyone's talking about - voting is the least of the problems facing any attempt to turn MSO into a useful site for folks looking to learn how to solve specific problems using SO. Going on about newbs getting downvoted on Meta is a bit like lamenting that poor people in 3rd-world countries don't have iPhones - there's some amount of truth to it, but even if that is a problem it's the least of a long list of other issues facing them.

The elephant in the room here is simply that...

Meta Stack Overflow talks about Stack Overflow, but doesn't talk about the topics on Stack Overflow

That's become slightly less true since we broke MSE off, but... It's still pretty rare to see folks posting questions about the problems that arise in specific topics on Stack Overflow. Out of the last 50 questions asked here, I counted maybe 5 that were specific to Stack Overflow issues - and that's including two questions I suspect are more or less the same (topicality of installation/download questions) and a retag request, which I included because I'm pretty sure it's the only question there that might require any amount of topic-specific knowledge at all (not that it's getting any).

While in theory these "mentoring" questions are on-topic here, in practice they rarely get asked and even less often get an answer from someone who knows what they're talking about.

In my experience, most actual mentoring happens on Stack Overflow itself, in comments. jpmc26 latched onto this right away, wondering why we would want to redirect this to meta:

I'm left asking, "Why isn't this already happening via comments on low quality posts?" Shouldn't experienced users already be offering help and suggestions via comment? Even if a user doesn't know where to go, a little chatter in the comments between an experienced user and someone who is actually trying can go a long way to narrowing the problem and improving the question. On the other side, this assumes that the asker is interested in improving their question. If they're unresponsive, perhaps they're not?

And he's right. Convincing folks to leave Stack Overflow and go to some other site for such tutelage was, I'll admit, a long shot - but convincing them to go to some other site where essentially no examples of the questions they would ask are visible is a pipe dream. To make this work, we would have to essentially re-create meta from the ground up, a mere four months after we just did that.

Or, I suppose, we could figure out how to hook these educational comment threads into meta somehow. Maybe the way we do Area 51 discussions? That's a long shot, but let's face it: we built it and they didn't come, so if we want the folks doing this, we're gonna have to go to them.

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    As to the comments, much of the crap we get is too ... crappy to warrant anyone taking the time to offer constructive help. Seriously, what the hell comment can be left to something like this: (10K only) stackoverflow.com/questions/25298636/my-windwos-is-very-slo Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 0:36
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    Nothing. The three people who commented there wasted their time. This is going to be true for most questions, one reason why I'm vehemently against any and all suggestions that we make comments mandatory for downvotes. That said... there are folks who can be helped, and folks who would help them. There are a surprising number of comment threads on closed questions that ultimately end well for the asker, even if not for the question he originally asked.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 0:39
  • Interesting, thanks Josh. I suppose it's entirely possible I underestimate the number of people who would benefit from this, and who also would participate. Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 0:48
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    Shog, as someone who's looked into this a lot, can you think of any particular signs that you've noticed that tend to be indicative of a closed question that has a reasonable shot at being fixed up? Or even conversely, some signs that a question really has no shot and that we'd be wasting reviewer's time trying to fix it up? Perhaps if whatever tool exists to help people fix up their questions could either automatically gold star a question that seems promising or prohibit some of the clearly hopeless cases, it'd help those fixing questions more effectively find where they can be helpful.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 15:19
  • To add a bit more, if we just have a button, "ask for help in fixing this question" or a message, "Post on meta if you want help fixing your question" we end up seeing a lot of clearly hopeless cases where people just want meta to fix their hopeless questions for them. If there was a better way to more automatically point good reviewers towards questions we thing they could actually fix (and by fix I mean make shine, not just be less crappy), than everyone involved would likely have a better experience.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 15:22
  • 3
    In my experience, folks who show that they've thought about the problem they're trying to solve are generally more receptive to guidance, @servy. The question may still be unanswerable / x-y / overly-broad... But there's at least a chance they'll be able to ask a better one with a bit of help. Willingness to edit in more details / research (NOT code dumps) is also a reasonable indicator.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 17:55
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    @Shog9 I'm interested in what you think about this suggestion to provide a new user interface for matching users seeking help with those willing to provide help using SE's existing chat system. If you have time, can you weigh in on if you think such a system would work?
    – Rachel
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 18:08
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    Also people who respond to comments with comments of their own are much more likely to be willing to fix a question or to learn an pose better questions next time - I think. Commented Sep 1, 2014 at 21:51
26

I like to help people, and I generally like people.

I preface my post with that statement because my reaction to the angst we're discussing here may come across as a little elitist. But the fact is, there is just no helping some people, and if we set out with the standing goal to help everyone be better at everything, we will inevitably fail that goal. Further, the current stated purpose of the site will be undermined in the process.

We have this Q&A site, intended as a resource for people to find answers to programming problems without having to wade through forums full of banter and irrelevance. A brilliant idea, and one we are all clearly interested in building.

Your lack of communication and diagnostic skills are not a programming problem.

As a community, we are charged with editorial oversight on posts in order to clean out irrelevance and generally curate the information here to produce useful, interesting content with a laser focus on our core: widely useful programming problems. The yield of our process is not the fact that we helped Joe the Programmer, but the content that results. Nowhere in the paradigm here is there room for a course on communication in professional settings or an entry-level programming learning resource, because that does not produce content that has a broad usefulness to future readers. There are other resources for acquiring those skills and information.

If a user is having trouble posting a good question, odds are, we likely don't need or want their question here because it will not yield content of the sort that we want.

Which isn't to say that we never want them to come back ever again. Just... after you learn how to diagnose and communicate with other developers. If you, as a fledgling programmer, lack the diagnostic skills necessary to evaluate your own problem and explain it to other programmers in a cogent fashion, I don't see value OR a mechanism to coach or encourage you into having those skills, especially not one that produces content we want on this site. You need time and practice, not words on the internet. We (programmers as a whole) want a relatively clutter-free resource with solutions to programming problems. Me coaxing you into communicating coherently does not provide the content we want, in fact, it produces the exact sort of clutter that this site exists in order to avoid.

Quantity vs. Quality

You can't please them all. There will always be people who are frustrated by their experience here. I submit for consideration: the experience here is not the source of the frustration. Their lack of skill and experience is frustrating them, but as is very commonly the case, the human mind turns outward seeking sources of stress rather than inward. Also, the inexperienced underestimate the depth of their own ignorance (Dunning-Kruger). They don't think they need to improve; they think we're being snobby. What value is there, to us, in disabusing them of that notion? Especially when it would be an uphill battle.

That there are people who turn away from Stack Overflow and never return might, to some, feel like a loss or a failing. This mentality is the result of scope creep. The scope of the site is not to have all the people post all the questions. Some people will walk away empty-handed, and that's okay. We are not Wal-Mart, we don't have to carry all the products. We're a specialty shop. They can't buy mayonnaise here, and, even if they get frustrated, we aren't going to start stocking mayonnaise just to please them. Let them walk away. That way, our other customers don't have to paw through stacks of mayonnaise no one actually wants to find the goods we ostensibly specialize in.

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    Case in point: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/262116/… -- read all the comments from the OP. Why mentor or otherwise intervene in this person's life at all? Why invest anything? We have thousands of users who can ask a coherent question, what value is there to the programming community to bicker with someone about their vague and ultimately useless question? That's the kind of crap I can get on any programming forum on the internet. Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 23:01
  • 2
    I wholeheartedly agree. People talk too much about how to mentor people who do not want to be mentored. I feel like only a few people understand the real problem here. Solutions that are based on misunderstanding the problem will never help, but they might make things worse.
    – kapa
    Commented Aug 18, 2014 at 8:39
  • 1
    @kapa "People talk too much about how to mentor people who do not want to be mentored." I agree with that. But how to identify people who wants (deserves?) to be mentored from the others? I have the feeling that requiring an "active" participation of the OP is required somehow to filter out "people who do not want to be mentored" Or maybe add some kind of "challenge"? For example: "Your question has been voted low quality. It will only be visible by moderators (mentors?) for the next 24h. After that delay, it will be either removed or re-opened depending on your edits". Commented Aug 18, 2014 at 11:05
  • 3
    @SylvainLeroux I see no problem here, and no need for change. People who are willing to improve already get enough help, and I see positive examples every day. Lowering the barrier would be a terrible idea. We should not aim to build a kindergarten here. So much effort wasted... We should concentrate our ideas on how to keep the mob out. That does not sound nice, but only that can help.
    – kapa
    Commented Aug 18, 2014 at 11:14
  • @kapa So maybe the barrier to lower is not for "getting help on asking" -- but for closing low quality questions? I'm only a "yearling" here, so I don't probably have enough experience. But I caught myself being hesitant to vote close on low quality question. Like I felled some kind of empathy with the poster: "This question is not terrible, but closing it will discourage any improvement" And, according to the "close vote counter", I'm not probably alone in that case. Maybe too much emotional impact both for the "closer" and the "closee" prevent us (me?) to reject poorly written questions? Commented Aug 18, 2014 at 11:24
  • 1
    @SylvainLeroux If you see a low quality question, close it. Emotions don't help here at all. If you feel like, leave a constructive comment. By leaving those questions open, you don't help anyone (not even the OP). So it is not really empathy, you just want to look "nice".
    – kapa
    Commented Aug 18, 2014 at 11:28
  • @kapa I will try to cure my niceness. In that optic, what is the appropriate behavior to reject low quality questions: down vote or vote close? That blog and the help tend to encourage down votes. But, I don't see many "negative score questions" these times -- even for "openly neglected" questions (awful formating, or many typos up into the question's title). On the other side, I'm pretty certain to have seen recently several low quality questions with positive score... Commented Aug 18, 2014 at 11:54
  • 1
    @SylvainLeroux It depends. If the question meets any of the close vote reasons, then close it without hesitation. Downvote when you see fit. I also feel that there are much more crap than downvoters, sadly, but I expect that to become even worse. I visit the site much less regularly lately (in the web development tags it is too hard to find anything interesting), so I am not a reliable source though.
    – kapa
    Commented Aug 18, 2014 at 12:01
  • At first glance, this is a bit of a wall of text. I thought about going in to look for particular lines to highlight. Then I realized I'd just have to highlight every line of text... it's so well written, I can't find any one portion of text to highlight above the others. Well done.
    – JDB
    Commented Aug 25, 2014 at 15:25
21

I don't understand your premise:

people who would like to ask good programming questions on Stack Overflow, but don't currently have the needed skills to do so.

I'll break down my response into two parts:

1) There's no secret formula for asking good questions on Stack Overflow

Since when is it difficult to ask a good programming question on Stack Overflow? If your question is both clear and non-trivial, like any "good programming question" from a professional or enthusiast programmer, it's very likely to be well received.

The problem is that we get a LOT of amateur programmers, or people who have absolutely no interest in programming (at least, in a specific language), and come here looking for someone else to solve their problems for them. Those users get a lot of negative attention. Perhaps some would-be participants see that negative attention and incorrectly assume that's how we treat all new users, that there's some secret ritual one must follow to earn points and, more importantly, get answers. That assumption is incorrect and I believe posts like this just add fuel to that fire.

2) Asking good questions is hard, no matter where you ask them

Asking good questions is not something that's unique to Stack Overflow. It's a skill that must be learned and there are numerous books and articles on the deceptively simple topic of asking good questions:

If people are struggling to ask good questions on Stack Overflow, it's not because Stack Overflow is a particularly difficult place to ask good questions, it's because the author doesn't know how to ask a good question in the first place.

In that sense, waiting to learn how to ask a good question until you need help with a serious problem is like waiting to learn Tae Bo until you're being mugged. Sure, a tip or two given in a hurry about providing a code sample or telling us what you've already tried is going to help a little bit, but it's not going to help much. Especially if you fall into the category described above: you're not a regex programmer, but you really need someone to do your work for you ASAP.

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    Yes. This. I continue to struggle to understand why some special training is needed to participate in Stack Overflow. Not to toot my own horn too terribly badly, but seeing SO results Google searches alone prepared me sufficiently to ask my first question Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 3:32
  • There really is a "secret formula" for asking good SO questions. You can't ask for libraries or other-people's-code, for instance, even if that particular query isn't central to the thrust of the question. You also can't ask for general advice on tackling a programming problem because that's "too broad." And so on; there are lots of gotchas that askers need to avoid.
    – tmyklebu
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 3:42
  • 5
    That's right, Stack Overflow is not a forum. Questions like that belong on a forum, but not here, and for very good reasons that have been enumerated many, many, many times. None of this is a secret; it takes surprisingly little effort to learn any of this. Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 3:47
  • 2
    @AdamRackis: I do not think you read my comment. One must avoid inadvertently phrasing one's question in ways that run afoul of these rules. "Too broad" and "recommendation question" are not treated as properties of questions, but rather as properties of how the question is expressed. And that drives people away.
    – tmyklebu
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 3:49
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    @AdamRackis: Put another way, I should not be able to take an unacceptable question, tweak it in a way that does not change the meaning of the question or the set of acceptable answers, and have the result be an acceptable question. That means your rules are dumb or their enforcement is dumb, not that SO is "not a forum."
    – tmyklebu
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 3:50
  • 1
    @tmyklebu I still asset that if the fundamental question is asked well and is of interest to the community (as any good question would be), all of these so called "gotchas" would be ignored. As has been said before, the gotchas are there because "you don't know how to ask a good question" is difficult and distracting to defend.
    – JDB
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 4:11
  • 1
    @JDB: They should be but they aren't. If 1% of the questions are good, that means a false positive costs 100x as much as a true negative.
    – tmyklebu
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 4:19
  • @tmyklebu - I just don't see much of that in practice. In fact, i think the opposite is far more common.
    – JDB
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 11:12
  • @JDB: Shrug. I do. I see more inappropriately-closed interesting questions than I see still-open interesting questions. That's why I'm pissing and moaning here.
    – tmyklebu
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 14:26
  • 2
    Whether or not your first point is correct, the second clearly negates it. If you happen to learn by doing, neither SO nor MSO are particularly good places to start. As the best place to get answers to programming question around, I believe we have a responsibility to help people learn if possible. And remember the profile of people I mentioned in the question: not people who are desperate for answers, but people who might ask interesting questions if only they knew how. It may be that the population I have in mind is small, but it's counterproductive to confuse the two groups.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 15:42
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    @JonEricson - My point is that asking good questions is not a Stack Overflow issue - it's much bigger than Stack Overflow. Asking a truly good question is at least twice as difficult as writing a good answer. Trying to help an individual ask a good question is a non-trivial pursuit that requires a great deal of effort from the potential question-asker. If they're willing to put in that kind of effort, they almost certainly don't need help from the SO community as there are many, many, many resources available already. The only thing unique about SO is that we rarely tolerate bad questions.
    – JDB
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 15:48
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    @JonEricson - Or, put another way - if you already know how to ask a good question in life, then you should have almost no difficulty writing a good SO question. If you have difficulty asking good questions and aren't aware of that fact or aren't interested in doing the hard work to overcome that deficiency, then there's almost nothing that the Stack Overflow community can do to help you.
    – JDB
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 15:53
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    @JonEricson - But I don't see that happening. Nearly every professional programming question I've ever searched for has resulted in an SO post with plenty of upvotes and some great answers. And my first point was that there's no secret formula. It's plastered all over the place, especially for new users. If anyone cares to ask a good SO question, the documentation is pretty clear on that point. Why do we need to worry about guaranteeing a good experience for every individual user? I don't think it's worth the trouble for people who don't bother educating themselves in the first place.
    – JDB
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 17:33
  • 2
    This is pretty much what I always come back to when we have these (annual?) debates about being friendlier or more welcoming or more helpful or whatever to new users who, someone says, are overwhelmed by figuring Stack Overflow out. Who are these people who have such a tough time understanding how to ask a good question, that will then go on to ask good questions after we nurse them? Does such a person actually exist?
    – jscs
    Commented Aug 20, 2014 at 0:35
  • 1
    @Elin - I don't think anyone will dispute that there exists a group of users who do not know how to ask a good question but would be willing to learn (though I think their little club would be dwarfed by those who don't give a rip). But people already tend to leave comments, and even if no one did, their innate curiosity at a few downvotes would certainly send them on a quest of discovery leading them, ultimately, to our copious documentation on the subject. At least, that's how it worked for me and many, many others.
    – JDB
    Commented Aug 25, 2014 at 15:22
16

I had a whole thought-train in the comments to Jon's post, so I decided that I should clean all that up and just post them all as a full-fledged answer instead.

A Catch-22

bjb568 commented:

If you don't want your meta questions to be badly received, just don't rant.

I don't think that's good enough, not with the current Meta culture. I think a lot of questions have a good chance of being downvoted, because a lot of the information is already available in the Help Center. If you want to have a well-received question on Meta, you have to know how to ask a good question, but if you don't already know how to ask a good question, well...I hope you can see where I'm going with this...it's a Catch-22.

The haphazard nature of downvoting on Meta

Also, it's been my experience that voting (especially downvoting) on Meta is really haphazard and confusing. The feedback (signals) that you get here on Meta, especially for new users, tends to turn off and confuse a lot of people (emphasis mine):

I'm surprised that you all focussed on one small point I made, I don't care about my experience, I'm saying that this site has a general and negative public opinion. Honestly, I'm not surprised especially after this whole experiment. This question is a bad question too right? Honestly, I can't wait for something else to come and wipe SO away.

Well, no, it wasn't a "bad question", people were probably just disagreeing with that guy, the question itself was actually a well-written, constructive discussion-opener, not a rant.

This is one of the reasons why I liked the idea of SOA, because since it's a different Q&A site, it can have a different set of guidelines and standards for what makes a good "question about how to ask good questions", just like how Server Fault, Software Recommendations, and Programmers all have different standards, guidelines, and expectations of users than what's expected of them over on Stack Overflow and here on Meta.

Skepticism over Meta

I'm skeptical about Meta's feasibility to host the kind of questions that SOA was meant to address. Downvotes are just dished out too liberally here, for any reason whatsoever. You can't just tell people "don't downvote questions about how to ask better questions", because the Help Center entry about Meta has the guideline that

On posts tagged feature-request, voting indicates agreement or disagreement with the proposed change rather than just the quality or usefulness of the post itself.

but that's just a guideline, the actual voting practices here on Meta is to downvote anything that you even have the slightest inkling of disagreement with.

An unusual fluke

The fact that What can I do to improve this question? was so well-received seems to be a huge fluke. Most questions like that tend to be pretty heavily downvoted here. The OP doesn't even look like he made the slightest attempt to take a look at the info already available in the Help Center to see if anything there could help him before he posted to Meta. Frankly, I might have been inclined to downvote that question myself because of that, had I seen it earlier.

The nature of questions proposed on SOA vs what's usually asked here on Meta

I would like to point out that many of the example questions currently in SOA are generic, they don't ask about specific questions, they ask about how to ask better questions in general:

  • How do I demonstrate research effort in my question? I've searched Google but nothing that I found answered my question.

  • How can I write a good title when I don't really understand the nature of my problem?

  • What information do I need to include in my Git question to help people understand my problem?

  • People are asking me to set up debugging code for my PHP errors, how do I do that?

  • SQL Server is being very slow. How can I ask for advice on making it faster?

Whether or not that would make a difference as to whether such questions are well-received here on Meta, I don't know.

Related

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    The burden should always be on the asker. If the asker is duping or didn't read the help center or is ranting or doesn't have common sense or is a help vamp, downvotes are expected. And beneficial to the rest of the community.
    – bjb568
    Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 21:26
  • 5
    I.e. You view SOA as a fresh start for a meta perceived as broken? Bandaids arent a good way to solve these kinds of problems. Besides, Metas current culture, like it or not, happened organically even though it probably started with similar ideas. So when SOA culture goes down the same path, is SOAA next? Solve the problem. The "problem" is here. Don't keep putting it off with bandaids.
    – Jason C
    Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 22:32
  • I wholeheartedly agree that voting is broken on [meta], it is confusing, does not provide good feedback. Some divergent thoughts: I think the system does not help follow the official guidelines. Could adding more visibility to different nature of feature-requests help? What about existing votes when retagging as feature-request – should feature-requests always be set up as new questions and just link to the original discussion? Regarding downvoting, could it be that the psychological break of losing 1 rep point when downvoting is seriously missing here?
    – Palec
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 9:34
  • @Palec see meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/268779/…
    – user456814
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 9:51
  • 1
    You don't lose 1 rep point when downvoting on Meta, but the person who gets downvoted also loses nothing. So…what's the problem again, @palec?
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 9:56
  • 3
    @CodyGray You seem to dismiss the emotional side of downvoting. The person loses nothing tangible. Just the feeling that they behaved right. The voting system was designed to encourage upvotes and discourage downvotes unless necessary. Negative feedback is much stronger than the positive one, but may hurt. It is not rational, people just work like that. Interesting to read The Value of Downvoting, or, How Hacker News Gets It Wrong @ Stack Exchange Blog.
    – Palec
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 11:33
  • 4
    I vehemently disagree that "The voting system was designed to encourage upvotes and discourage downvotes unless necessary." There is absolutely nothing in the design that is reflective of that, and I don't think that would be a good idea. Scores would become heavily biased upward, which undermines the utility of voting as a ranking system for posts. If a question or answer is heavily downvoted, that is a good sign to others that it is not worth spending their time reading. No, it isn't rational—that's why we need to discourage this reaction, not embrace it.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 13:23
  • 4
    Jeff says in that blog post that downvotes are integral. The only thing he says against them is that they're "not to be cast lightly". Fine, I'm not disagreeing with that. But that's not the same thing as discouraging downvotes. I don't cast any votes lightly.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 13:23
  • 1
    @CodyGray The problem isn’t downvotes, per se, but encouraging responsible downvoting. That’s why on Stack Overflow, we do it this way: • Upvotes add 10 reputation to the post author • Downvotes remove 2 reputation from the post author, and 1 from your reputation … The net effect is that you have to feel very strongly about something to downvote it. Downvotes are serious business, and not to be cast lightly. We designed our system around that maxim. I’m not sure if I get right the meaning of discourage, but I meant it as “encourage to downvote less than we would otherwise”.
    – Palec
    Commented Aug 16, 2014 at 15:14
  • 1
    @CodyGray: Aren’t scores already highly biased upward? I think that there is no need for an average post to have zero score. The important thing is being able to tell the quality of a post. Good content is upvoted and excellent… even more. Quality content floats to the top.
    – Palec
    Commented Aug 16, 2014 at 15:25
16

Hmm, I don't get it. In my mind, this is one of the three or four major purposes of the site-specific Metas:

  • technical support
  • feature requests
  • bug reports
  • getting help from the community on using the site

So yeah, I mean, it has always been acceptable to ask questions of the following form on Meta:

  • "How can I ask a question about …blah blah blah…"
  • "How could I have better asked this question (link)?"
  • "How can I edit this question (link) to improve it/get it re-opened?"
  • "Why was this question (link) closed? Is it a suitable candidate for re-opening?"
  • "What tag(s) should I use for questions about x?"

In fact, not only have these questions long been acceptable, but the proof has lain in the pudding: these questions do get asked on Meta. And, of course, like all reasonable Meta questions, they get really good answers from the community. Answers of a quality that never fail to surprise me, despite being a regular.

I don't see why we need a separate site for this. I don't even think that's a good idea. Who would be the experts that would join and participate on a "Stack Overflow Academy" site? Why would these people—and why would we want these people to—split their time between there and Meta SO? "Stack Overflow Academy" would end up being a wasteland of people who already don't know how to use Stack Overflow. In other words: the blind leading the blind. Or worse: a colossal support burden for the community team.

You raise one possible objection with using Meta for this purpose in your question:

But meta-questions about tend not to go well here.

However, this is a useless metric. What you need is a queue that tells you how many of the users who asked those questions got useful feedback, improved their question (or had their questions improved by the community), and therefore got good answers on Stack Overflow. I'm not a SQL expert, but I don't think there is any way to run such a query.

All you're looking at is whether these questions received downvotes and/or were closed. I know we've had this discussion several times, especially back before The Great Meta Schism™, but voting on Meta has long symbolized disagreement. I am absolutely, positively in favor of that. I could kind of see the arguments against it when reputation was awarded for the Meta site, but now it doesn't mean diddly-squat. In fact, it isn't even counted: your reputation score here on Meta is the same as that on the main site. Which allows us to go back to the original purpose of the voting system without having to worry that it will negatively affect someone's ability to participate on Meta.

It is high time to move past this hand-wringing over downvotes. There is no reason for a hundred people to all leave an answer (or a comment) that says: "No, I don't think this is a good question for Stack Overflow" or "No, there is no place where you can ask that question". That sentiment can be better and more easily expressed by casting a simple downvote. No noise, no fuss—exactly what we are all about.

Besides that, the sad truth is that many of the "Stack Overflow Academy"-style questions that get asked on Meta are terrible. Really, they are terrible. They deserve all of the downvotes that they get, and are rightfully closed to prevent a downward spiral. That problem wouldn't be solved by shoving them off on some other site. People who struggle to ask good questions…struggle to ask good questions. But that isn't the important thing. The important thing is whether those people are being helped. And I think they are. Whether the question was downvoted is quite irrelevant to that metric.

Moreover, the tag is often applied to rant questions—"Why did the evil moderator overlords delete my favorite question about boat programming? Why do you losers hate fun?" So yeah, those get downvoted and closed. Rightly so, I would argue. People who post these aren't really looking to get help, they just want to complain. If you want to propose a "Stack Overflow Complainers" site, I'd be all over that one. Well, not that I would participate. I would just support other people's participation. Because the truth is, I don't really care if people who post unconstructive rants get answers to their questions.

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    Sometimes people contact us (using the link a the bottom of the page) about help with specific questions. When the site is not SO, I have no problem directing them to meta. Most metas do a good job with the fourth purpose. But when the user is on SO, I hesitate. I picture their reaction if they were to post here and, more often than not, I give them different advice. It's very likely a result of shear volume and big city problems, but coming here for help asking questions tends to go as well as asking a criminal court for help with a parking ticket.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 17:37
  • 2
    Well then, perhaps you're part of the problem? There aren't many questions like this because you're not directing people here to ask those questions. And that means it's uncomfortable to ask those questions because there aren't very many of them… It's a catch-22. At any rate, my opinion of Meta is apparently very different than yours. As a regular participant, I see people getting help here all the time. The only people that I really see have a bad experience are those that, frankly in my opinion, deserve it—because they've come here to rant and tell us we're stupid, rather than get help.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 16, 2014 at 11:09
  • 4
    @JonEricson I feel like you are one of those who look at SO like a country. People are born into a country, and they automatically become citizens. If they need to be looked after for some reason, the state will help, and good citizens will also help. But SO is not a country at all. A community of professional and enthusiast programmers. If you can't participate, you can just go away. We should NOT apply the same ideas we do with a country, or city. I agree with Cody, I perceive Meta as a very helpful and kind place.
    – kapa
    Commented Aug 19, 2014 at 9:39
15

I really love Stack Overflow, and was active in both the main site, and the meta (the original meta!) for quite some time before work started requiring more time from me.

In that time I've seen so many new features, help centers, tutorials, etc aimed at making things more inviting for new users. Anyone remember the "What Stack Overflow is Not" meta post? And still the flood of crap continues, which leads to downvotes closures and deletions, then outraged users, and finally a continued perception that Stack Overflow is not welcoming to new users.

Becoming a good citizen in this community is not hard. At all. Really, it's not hard. Every veteran here was a newbie at some point.

Is the more parsimonious explanation that things would be better if only we had a better learning tool to help new users? Or is the more parsimonious explanation that there are a lot of mediocre programmers out there who care not one bit about the site, and want a solution to their trivial problem, and they want it now?

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  • 3
    I think you might be thinking of a different use case. The people I'm talking about would rather struggle to find their own answers (or wait for someone else to ask) then ask a question on Stack Overflow. I might have a biased sample, but most of the programmers I worked with and met in real life fit this description.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 22:06
  • 4
    @cupcake - I rather like the word parsimonious :) Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 22:08
  • 1
    Fair enough. Also, regarding target audience for SOA, see What is the purpose of this site?: "I don't think this would be of much interest - or use - to the 'vampires' who grind their way through their jobs without learning; if they wanted to put more effort into getting their questions asked, they wouldn't be a problem. But for that minority of folks who do want to learn but aren't sure where to start... It might actually be useful."
    – user456814
    Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 22:08
  • 4
    @Jon - entirely possible. But if that's true, will the SOA (or this replacement) help? Aren't they capable of using SO, but simple choose not to? Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 22:09
  • 2
    @Cupcake - fair enough. I just remain skeptical that that population is all that large. Shog explicitly separates them from the help vampires, and that's good, but I just don't think there are many people left who would benefit from the site once you do eliminate those people. Just my view: hopefully I'm wrong. Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 22:12
  • I'll be honest: I don't know if people would use such a venue to ask for help. But it strikes me that we've done little enough to try.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 17:04
  • 2
    @Jon - little enough to try? You don't think we've done enough? Or did you mean to say that we've done more than enough? Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 19:13
11

Let me come at this from a perspective of someone who would've been directed to the proposal site.

As a user who's been here... Not a long time, and a user who's not earned a lot of rep here, I feel it would've been helpful to have a place to learn about asking questions. Helpful for me, but not mandatory. When I came in and first asked a question, I was fresh out of college as a networker (don't shoot me please) yet hired as a programmer. The most I knew when I started on this site, and at my job, was the bare minimum of C#.

The problem with that: We don't use C# at work. So I was quickly thrust into a tropical rainforest with a map and a packet of food and told find my way out. Oh boy. Thankfully, my first real issue that my coworkers couldn't really help with brought me to Stack Overflow. While that first question was not the best and looking at it now makes me laugh at how simple it was, it wasn't received poorly. (Thinking about it now, I'm surprised. It was a pretty simple regex question.)

Before I ever posted that first question, I read the help center and tried to learn the rules. It didn't sink in right away for me, though, and I have pretty good reading comprehension. I think if I had been able to ask someone here for tips before posting that first question, I might not have ever needed to ask it. I would've learned early the value of researching well before hand. Granted, by now I've learned it, but a number of my questions may have been avoided altogether.

Now that I'm getting into Meta more, I'm having to ask less questions, and the ones I do ask are better, in my opinion. I didn't get a ton of comments on improving my questions, just clarification requests. At the time I didn't realize that meant I missed some piece of information in my questions.

What's all this leading up to? I feel there does need to be a way for users to ask for help without fear of being mobbed. Whether it's a new site or just on Meta, I truly think it would help improve quality for those who do care about writing good questions.

As I've stated in the comments above, it will require mental training for Meta-goers if this is done on Meta. It will require a lot of time and effort to be able to welcome such questions openly here. Until that point, they're likely to get shut out fast.

If we can teach the users who want to learn, then we can make Stack Overflow that much better. Good users asking good questions and writing good answers will earn reputation, learn what the site is about, and be able to use the privileges they earn more effectively to eliminate the terrible questions from users who don't want to learn.

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  • 1
    Hmm, well said, thank you. But can you help us to understand what specifically you would have needed SOA for? Your first question was relevant, clear, concise, and well phrased. That's all we ever ask for here. Questions don't have to be hard to be well received, just relevant and clear. Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 13:34
  • 3
    @AdamRackis One can never learn too much. I always feel like I'm putting too much or too little into my posts. That particular case I probably could've actually researched more and not needed the question. I write stories in my free time (nothing publicly available) and that leads me to always doubt I'm putting enough detail or information in, or to think I'm putting far too much detail in. Thank you for your helpful opinion of that question, however- It's always relieving to know one is doing well in things they wish to do well in.
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 13:40
  • 1
    I especially like the last paragraph, but also the whole answer. I agree that the final solution (friendly MSO or SOA) doesn't really matter much as long as one of it is realized. Commented Sep 1, 2014 at 22:06
10

Can we make this meta site work for mentoring?

No!

Because of the same reason why a kindergarten and a parliament cannot co-exist in the same building.

Can Meta Stack Overflow constructively answer the example questions about debugging and asking strategy?

Yes!

But the resulting fiasco would be equivalent to the one you would have if you put a kindergarten in the parliament.


Meta is the place where you shape Stack Overflow. It is frequented mostly by avid users. There are few cases where newbies have asked a well-formed question about why their question was closed/downvoted, but these are edge cases.

If we try to use Meta for mentoring, their will be a truckload of rants with a very few well-formed questions of users who are trying actually to learn. And it will be annoying. And the real meta talks will slowly die.

There is a requirement for a place to mentor new users. Be it Stack Overflow Academy or some other thing we still haven't thought about.


I noticed that most of the time new users are slammed hard with comments for posting a bad question. Some are really sarcastic comments. While there are times where my emotions take over, I always try to comment something like this if I saw a bad question:

Welcome to StackOverflow. While SO is a community of individuals who are willing to help others like you, it may be that they will be unable to help you because [the reason why your question is bad: unclear, no code, wall of code, etc...]

I have got some positive results with this approach. Most of the time the post is improved to the point I can revert my downvote.

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    Your first statement is completely erroneous: here in the UK, we have a kindergarten and a parliament in the same building. The bad news is that our parliament is the kindergarten :-(.
    – halfer
    Commented Aug 17, 2014 at 18:42
  • 1
    In Russia in the 1990s one of the deputies in the Lower House (in)famously proclaimed, "A parliament is not a place for discussion!" Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 7:04
  • here in Canada, we closed all the mental hospitals, and made them all Senators.
    – Warren P
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 17:24
9

In short, I fully support the decision to close the proposal, and everything Jon said in the OP. Even more so I fully support that this discussion is being brought to everybody's attention, and I retract the comments I made on the OP about this not being a big deal, as @AnnaLear brings up a good point:

The "big deal" here isn't the SOA proposal or its closure. It's the discussion among the SO community about whether or not MSO can have an educational component as Jon describes. That, I think, is deserving of the [featured] tag.

Keeping it somewhat (because I type fast) brief (because I don't have a lot of time), my take on it is simply this:

Personally I think it's up for debate whether MSO is "broken" or not, both sides have good points. Let's assume it is for the sake of this post.

SOA is essentially a band-aid for a meta perceived as broken. Band-aids arent a good way to solve these kinds of problems.

More importantly, MSO's current culture, like it or not, happened organically even though it probably started with similar ideals. That happened for a reason and that reason needs to be addressed, and I think Jon's post is addressing these issues in a good way and getting straight to the source.

If we don't fix the real issues, and have SOA, even with the best intentions, what happens when SOA culture inevitably goes down the same path? Do we get SOAA? Then SOAAA? You may think SOA is "different" or that it starts with "better principles" but MSO I'm sure didn't start with a philosophy of becoming an unfriendly (again, assumptions for sake of discussion) place to ask these types of questions either. We are who we are today because we arrived here naturally.

Solve the problem at its source. Don't keep putting it off with band-aids, or by slapping a new site theme and URL on a meta-in-disguise.

Besides there seems to be some attitude here that "Ah! MSO is screwed!" This is a very dynamic system we have here. It can change, and probably quickly. Hell, the SO "culture" (at least as related to this type of thing) does a full 180 every time the close-vote reasons are re-evaluated. So cut the doomsday "MSO is screwed, SOA is our only hope" and solve the real problems.

Take whatever philosophical changes you want to make on SOA and apply them here instead.

The SOA proposal was just an easy way to attempt to get out of dealing with harder problems, which will still exist on MSO and SOA. Who would participate on SOA anyways? A whole new set of people? Or the same people (us) who have organically driven MSO culture to its current state anyway?

1
  • I think a good start in transfer the nice new ideas of SOA to here would be to take the best example questions from there and post them here and see what happens. Best would be if the most popular users (JonEricson, ..) would lead this attempt in order to ensure a friendly welcome but actually anyone could do it. It would be interesting to see if this could already change the current state of MSO. Commented Sep 1, 2014 at 22:03
9

Meta is not the right place for that. Meta is for governance. It is not a tool to teach people how to debug and ask. Meta is not a place for the average user to participate in.

If we invite this kind of question to Meta we will pollute Meta until we will want another split.

Also, the audience of meta is not congruent with the audience that we want for such questions: We want experienced programmers who have an idea how to systematically solve problems. I think of myself as being such a person and I am rarely on Meta.


Regarding the proposal that is now closed:

I find that most questions on Stack Overflow are being asked by methodically incompetent people who are otherwise smart. They are not using their potential. We all have had coworkers just like that. Right now, there is no place (offline and online) that teaches programmers to systematically solve their problems.

This site proposal seems like a good thing to try.

The close reason ("This proposal would tend to drain audience from an existing Stack Exchange site.") is incorrect because I don't see how most of the proposed questions would be allowed on Stack Overflow. There is little overlap.

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    "We want experienced programmers who have an idea how to systematically solve problems." These are the people we want answering questions on Stack Overflow. They're not necessarily the people that we want conducting training sessions on how to ask good questions on Stack Overflow. I think the people we want doing that are people who are experts on how Stack Overflow works, what makes it hum. And those people do hang out on Meta.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 13:25
  • 1
    @CodyGray The questions proposed in that meta proposal are often of the form "I have a problem, how can I even start resolving it?". They are not so much about how to ask formally. That is covered in the FAQ perfectly well.
    – usr
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 15:19
  • I think you're misunderstanding what is being discussed here. All questions about programming problems should still be asked on Stack Overflow. No one is proposing that that be changed. What is being discussed here is whether Meta is an appropriate place for getting guidance on how to ask questions on Stack Overflow, or whether that kind of hand-holding should occur someplace else. We aren't talking about "I have a problem, how can I even start resolving it?", we're talking about, "I have a problem, how can I start asking a question about it?"
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 15:36
  • @CodyGray, I would consider it a meta-problem :-) Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 7:06
5

Rachel already came up with the same criticism : while it's a good idea to have a new site to function as an on-ramp to SO, having a Q&A format is not appropriate.

Of course, we also have the "how to ask" page. That's not interactive, though. Rachel's idea for chat is interactive, and a good idea for that reason. But it means we'd have to repeat the basic answers all the time.

What could be a winner is a mix. Underneath the "How to ask" page, offer the opportunity for newcomers to ask for clarification if something is unclear. This can be a guided discussion, e.g. it may be reasonable to ask if the newcomer has a question about code he has already written, or about code that he wants to write. Link this behind the scenes to chat and other notifications (e.g. here on meta) so we can help out.

It may even be useful to let high-ranking users peek in on this, so they can step in and open a chat at this point.

To improve the "how to ask" page and the following guided dialogue, it would be good if the interaction was saved and reviewable by the people who can improve the "how to ask" process. This probably should be extended to more people, especially if the guided dialogue starts to include specific advice (e.g. on PHP - we'd want PHP experts for that part of the dialogue).

5

If we're going to make this work, these Meta "mentoring" questions have to be held to the same quality rules we have for everything else. Eight thousand questions titled "How can I improve my question?" with the same contrite personal fluff about becoming a better member in the body, and no reflection about the contents of the target question, are not going to make Meta or Stack Overflow a better place. They're going to turn Meta into what critics already accuse it of being: an elite clubhouse where if you don't genuflect and grovel properly you're bullied into leaving.

We cannot focus on whether the Meta poster is new, or sorry, or arrogant, or anything else -- we must keep the emphasis on our subject matter: the way that Stack Overflow works.

This isn't an interactive help forum any more than SO proper is. In this regard, I disagree with Brad Larson's answer. Meta questions are still technical questions, they just don't have computer code as their topic. They still require expertise to answer, and a lesser degree to ask. They still need to be well-researched, specific, clear, to the point, and interesting to answerers.

Equally important, they also should be useful to the future -- I think you, Jon, were touching on this with your bolded sentence

Can Meta Stack Overflow constructively answer the example questions about debugging and asking strategy?

(emphasis on "the example questions" mine), and apaul34208's answer proposes this too. Yes, we talk about s here, but ideally as illustrations or points of data -- not as the sole subject of a post. To be even more explicit, making "what's wrong with MY question" a regular topic here on Meta will turn the nascent "mentoring" meta tag into the pit of quicksand that we already deal with in [regex] on SO proper. (Rachel's answer would be a great way to sidestep the problem entirely.)

We can see this coming in a way that perhaps no-one did there, and if we're going to put this material on Meta.SO, we should get out ahead of the problem and strive from the beginning to create really useful canonical posts about common difficulties people have in using the site.* This may not mean creating them from scratch. We can edit the heck out of the questions that "mentoree" users post, and make the answers polished and applicable to others.**

Meta, like Stack Overflow itself, cannot exchange question quality for sympathy. If we truly think that these "mentoring" questions need to be personalized guidance sessions for each lost lamb then my answer is "No, we can't make it work here on Meta". But I think there are other things we can do instead.


*Whereas for SOA, I believe heading in the "canonical posts" direction would have produced a uselessly ossified archive, they should fit in just fine on the already-thriving Meta.SO.

**We're off to a good start already! https://meta.stackoverflow.com/a/269359/ (Though the question was solid already; only the title needed a little work.)

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  • I agree... to a point. The whole purpose of mentoring is to (for the most part) help people through their forum misconceptions, and they've been working with those useless bastards for so long that their #OldHabitsAreHardToBreak
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 20, 2014 at 22:12
  • I also agree to a point. I feel that closing most questions in this department as a dupe is productive- Where it comes counter-productive is where users have clearly read the help center, tried their hardest, and just can't make the canned advice work. In that case, it would be more beneficial to the OP and to the community to give individualized help. If their post on Meta can adequately reflect their will to learn, and show that they have indeed read and tried to understand the help center, then they should be rewarded for that hard work with personalized help on a specific question
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 12:55
  • (cont.) or two. If the question is just a link, what it was closed as, and "how do I fix it?" then close as a dupe of canned advice. That goes double for the generic "why did I get downvotes" posts- Unless they make a clear effort to show what they've done to try and improve their post, they should've looked at other questions first and taken that into account. Perfect example of a well-done question that deserves the extra help: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/269135/…
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 12:57
  • Some of what you've said is exactly what I'm warning about in my first two paragraphs, @Kendra. We've already seen the view that a person "deserves help" because he's "trying hard enough" cause trouble on SO. Effort is not the criterion; the manifestation of effort is what counts: a clear, thoughtful, and reasonably general question.
    – jscs
    Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 17:05
  • @JoshCaswell "trying hard enough" is not quite what I meant. What I meant is they have gone through the help center and applied it to their question to see what they are lacking in, which is why the question I linked is a perfect example in my eyes of a question which thoroughly shows the asker has an understanding of the help center and wishes to positively contribute to the community through applying it their post. Most of the ones I've seen show exactly what I describe in my second comment, and are much more deserving of throwing the canned advice at.
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 18:17
  • The case I mostly see my point applying to are non-native English speakers who have read the help center and applied how they understand it to their question, and demonstrate it in their Meta post, but either due to the language barrier have missed something, or completely understand it and are missing something A) not covered in the help center or b) in translation that is making their post come across as failing the help center guidelines.
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 18:19
  • Sure; maybe we agree more completely than we think then, @Kendra. Helping someone understand the verbiage in the help center is definitely a good task for a Meta question. Just so long as we're focused on the content of the Meta post, not the poster's mentality.
    – jscs
    Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 18:27
  • @JoshCaswell I think we do- I think we're having our own mini-language barrier. As I stated in the comments of the question I linked- I see a lesser Meta question being closed as duplicate as fine. But one where the asker has thoroughly explained why they do not understand the feedback they received on SO based on their understanding of the help center should stay open and receive positive feedback. (On that note, I did originally upvote your answer; it is well written and I agree with most of it.)
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 18:30
4

In my opinion the solution to this problem would be to start building well maintained community wikis rather than trying to change the vote culture or building a new site.

I don't think we tend to be patient enough to offer custom fit help to every user who writes a bad question and then turns up on Meta asking us to fix their question.

Rather than offering tailor made help to every user who is struggling, how about putting some time into building a few more "catch all" posts.

Much like:
What can I do when getting “We are no longer accepting questions/answers from this account”?

I'm thinking we could build some solid example based faqs that we could direct struggling users to.

Then when we see some of the more common issues on the main site we could direct the troubled user to a comprehensive community wiki that relates to the problem with their post, rather than trying to explain it each time.

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    A series of canonical posts about common problems was, for the SOA proposal, the Scylla to the Charybdis of every post being a unique snowflake guidance session with no relevance for anyone else. It seemed to me that only one or the other could be the outcome of the site. Here on Meta, though, canonical "how do I use the site posts" are something we already do, and do well. They fit into the Q&A model much better than one-on-one mentoring, because they produce lasting documents, and they can be easily refined and updated as circumstances warrant. I think this is absolutely the way to go.
    – jscs
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 18:49
  • 2
    So kind of like What Stack Overflow Is Not? :-) (Or, for the non-10ks, see here.)
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 16, 2014 at 11:13
  • @CodyGray Sorry for the slow response, I had to think it through a bit as that was a little before my time on the network. I would say that something a bit like that could work, but I would rather split it by topic and not approach from the negative. So, rather than "What Stack Overflow is not" we could use posts more along the lines of "What is a wall of code/text?" or "Why do I need to format my code before posting?"
    – apaul
    Commented Aug 17, 2014 at 16:16
  • 1
    Oh, was it? Gosh, I thought I'd seen you around here for at least that long. That was a large part of the reason I made the analogy. At any rate, my comment wasn't intending to make a value judgment for or against your suggestion. Realistically, I think I probably have to agree that the "WSOIN" resource was exploited more in negative ways than it was in positive ways. And I'm not sure how we fix that—provide any resource and it will inevitably be abused to leave snarky comments. But since snarky comments are inevitable, perhaps it's best that they at least link to a useful resource?
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 19, 2014 at 4:29
  • 2
    Anyway, yeah, as far as splitting it by topic, we used to have that on the global Meta, which was both the global Meta and the Stack Overflow-specific Meta. There was a very extensive set of frequently asked questions, designed by the faq tag. Technically, this faq exists on all per-site metas, but it isn't as extensive here. The content has not all been imported. I think we'd be all for someone taking the time to port that content over to the SO Meta, make it SO-specific, and add to it when necessary.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 19, 2014 at 4:30
4

This might not directly answer the question, but my first impression of the proposed SO Academy was that it can never work, and it's baffled me why no one else has seen why. It's basically just kicking the can down the road, deferring the inevitable and adding a whole other site to manage just to have the same undesirable outcome.

Here is a perfect example of why: I sent the link to the proposed SO Academy to a friend who will browse SO but doesn't have an account. Short version is that a short conversation ensued where he clearly didn't understand it. I then told him he didn't "get it", but not to worry because I'll send him to the "How to ask a question on Stack Overflow Academy about how to ask a question on stack overflow" stack exchange website.

Basically, if people are not participating or participating incorrectly on any stack exchange website, whether the reason is that the format is confusing, the layout doesn't work, they are allergic to grammar, downvotes hurt their feelings or WHATEVER, the solution is almost certainly not to throw up the exact same website with a different name. You can try to argue that it's not the exact same website because the philosophy would be different, but at the end of the day, it's really just the exact same format, same old community members being recycled in as mods or top contributors, etc. It's the same damn website. You're offering the problem as the solution.

Now to directly answer the question: no stack exchange website can be used to get people to start using or use properly a stack exchange website. The logic is circular, impossible. This is especially impossible with the format of meta, upvotes mean agree and downvotes mean disagree. New people especially won't get this. They'll probably get hammered with downvotes out of the gate and that'll kill their participation forever.

6
  • I disagree with your last paragraph- I think if we truly try to integrate people with questions about asking questions on SO onto Meta, it'll work out after a bit of adjustment from Meta-goers. If they're truly having trouble but want to fix whatever's wrong to more correctly participate on the site, people here tend to respond well to that. Now if they come here just to rant that the site is stupid or such, then they'll get hammered with downvotes.
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 18, 2014 at 15:37
  • @Kendra I think just plain the format of meta won't suit this. People will most certainly make posts like "I want to ask how to X" and people will dowvote because they disagree. They will maybe disagree that the person even needs help, disagree that the question needs to be asked (maybe it's been asked), disagree that the person didn't google hard enough, disagree with the persons color of shirt, and on and on. This is engrained in frequent users of meta. You basically have to re-train everyone here.
    – user562566
    Commented Aug 18, 2014 at 15:41
  • True, it could be difficult at first, but honestly, I have seen several times where a new user asks a questions here, gets downvoted, asks why, and if the question is reasonable on here, once it's explained Meta votes are different, they tend to calm down. Now if they're ranting or already annoyed in the comments or such, then they tend not to take it so well. But from what I've seen it's not that bad. I've also noticed that a lot of basic "Can I ask X?" types of questions, if well worded and truly trying to understand things, are not terribly downvoted.
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 18, 2014 at 15:44
  • (cont.) People tend to respect a sincere attempt to understand and respect the site rules. For instance, I have only one question here on Meta, and it was not horribly received. It did not get an answer per say, but the comments were helpful and the question I mentioned in my question that caused me to ask ended up closed. If you're simply having trouble understanding the format and rules and ask about it without getting nasty or name-calling or anything like that, people tend to respect the attempt.
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 18, 2014 at 15:46
  • @Kendra but the issue being addressed here is beyond the scope of the FAQ. The issue meant to be addressed, at least by SE/SO Academy, is low quality. It's for people to post and get advice like "hey, I'm a noob at X but I want to ask about Y in X, how can I communicate this specific idea correctly". I think such an environment should at minimum have no downvote on the question itself. This format goes against the site rules as well, which prohibits "too localized" content. The problem and the solutions cannot be addressed by any current SE format.
    – user562566
    Commented Aug 18, 2014 at 15:52
  • Asking for how to improve a question isn't horribly received either, actually. Try searching Meta for it- I've seen a few just the past couple weeks, and most of them are not terribly received. The OP even linked to one that was very well received. This is already being done, just on a very small scale and mostly with users that have been here for a while.
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 18, 2014 at 15:55
4

I see good reasons why teaching to Q&A should happen in SO, but for me, the most relevant is:

While we improve questions in SO, we learn something about programming. Either a keyword, a technology, a tag, etc. This is a real incentive to teach there. In an SOA, because the content is Q&A and not programming, there is no incentive to participate.

Furthermore, I really see a problem with a SOA: it is another SO. Really, we have Meta, Meta SO, SO. It is becoming difficult to handle all of them.

For these reasons, please don't open another SOA: incentivate more explicit comments on bad but salvageable questions, incentivate better comments by giving rewards by introducing a "teacher's comment" for high rep users, introduce a new special tag on Meta specifically for teaching, etc, but please don't open yet another website that I must visit to contribute to this community.

1
  • 2
    You might consider editing your sentence about incentivate more explicit comments on bad questions to specify bad, but salvageable questions. Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 13:13
4

No, we could not use meta for mentoring.

Meta is NOT a mentoring site, it is a community portal. It is not filled with people who have the patience of the world at their finger tips and they do not come here to be asked questions such as the ones you are proposing, or even the ones that exist on SO.

They instead come here to have a good chat/discussion with the rest of the community and have a little fun outside of SO itself.

To prove my point I actually decided to ask a mentoring question and it was not long before I hit a problem. As I was explaining myself I was thrown with:

Taking up the conversation here doesn't help your original question in any way

Now normally that would seem harmless but think about: any noob who comes here and is asked questions about why he thinks something is not true on meta will reply in turn stating why, hoping that he can improve his results on his original question by talking it out with experienced people who can guide him to get better results.

Taking up the conversation here doesn't help your original question in any way

can be interpreted two ways:

You can't cheat the system here

or:

There is nothing useful we can do here for you

To a noob with little, to no connection, to the community they will just leave since they feel either attacked or useless.

This is why we need a specific mentoring site, where people who expect these questions go and help others and those people seeking help are not bothering meta users.

Yes: in an ideal world each meta should have its own mentoring program but this is unfortunately the real world and here things don't quite work like that. We need a specific site where people who wish to mentor can and those who do not have their space as well...sad but true.

4
  • I largely agree with your conclusion but wish to take issue with one point: "They instead come here to have a good chit chat with the rest of the community and have a little fun". The intended purpose of Meta is to talk about SO itself -- serious policy/technical discussions, not water cooler stuff. Discussion of specific SO posts and users' interactions with each other and the site can fit under that heading, so long as they are constructive and useful for others.
    – jscs
    Commented Aug 25, 2014 at 19:10
  • @JoshCaswell yeah true but your really gonna tell me you dont enjoy it and its always serious? But yeah I hould change that
    – Sammaye
    Commented Aug 25, 2014 at 19:13
  • @JoshCaswell I left the fun part in cos I personally find meta fun :)
    – Sammaye
    Commented Aug 25, 2014 at 19:19
  • Well, no, I wouldn't be here if it wasn't enjoyable mostly. Hating fun is...fun. :) I just meant that the non-fluff we do here can be engaging enough.
    – jscs
    Commented Aug 25, 2014 at 19:21
2

Option 3, in addition to using Meta, would be to create a second subsite of Stack Overflow, learn.stackoverflow.com or something like that. Identical in function to Meta, in the sense that it has no rep; it should have no barrier to entry including if you are question-banned from SO; and otherwise is a regular site.

Then, encourage people to post questions there first, allow meta-discussion of the question, and then allow migration by the original poster (with a flag? without moderator involvement? Via close votes?) to regular Stack Overflow once a question is sufficiently improved - with meta-answers removed (so only migrate the question).

7
  • 1
    This may have already been talked about, to a degree, in discuss.area51.stackexchange.com/q/17088/38859, discuss.area51.stackexchange.com/q/17090/38859, or discuss.area51.stackexchange.com/q/17386/38859, but I'm having trouble finding where it was mentioned specifically.
    – user456814
    Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 21:53
  • I believe such site should make a review upon flags to be sent to the main site, like a reopen review but a specific one and on Main StackOverflow something like "Approval Review" and hope the robo-reviewers cannot find it.
    – Mansueli
    Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 23:09
  • 1
    Seems like too many layers of abstraction. Besides there's zero way to enforce this. Unless you can think of some creative changes to the main site nav bar and main => meta flow, in reality you'll just end up with two metas with new, frustrated, or unmotivated user posting randomly on whatever one they end up on. These types of people aren't going to be the type of people who care about the subtle differences of learn vs. meta.
    – Jason C
    Commented Aug 14, 2014 at 23:18
  • My favorite! Call it SO Help Me and don't have mods have Gods. :) It should be the place to go to find out why you or your question is being treated unfairly and there should be no downvotes. I disagree with paragraph 2 - question should be already posted where OP hoped it should go. Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 14:23
  • 1
    @JasonC The way you enforce it, is that when someone is question banned this is the only place they can post questions, and it's directly suggested to them via the ban message. (Also, it can be suggested in the initial posting stage.) You could even consider allowing people to post on this without registering (not sure of the implications exactly) - removing a barrier for participation until they're sure they can do so usefully (and then they must register to get it moved).
    – Joe
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 14:41
  • @Joe Yeah, that won't lead to the current "bad meta culture" x10 developing there in 24 hours flat at all. Can you imagine? Besides, having a question ban doesn't prevent you from reading the site, and there's already more than enough material on meta to help you fix your ban. There's not much to be covered in a new "hey I got question banned, what happened?" questions anyways. I've never been question banned but I presume there's a FAQ link (correct me if I'm wrong)? An improvement to whatever info is in that link is a better solution than a site for 1000 duplicate ban-related questions.
    – Jason C
    Commented Aug 16, 2014 at 6:26
  • I offered essentially the same suggestion but perhaps it was less well received because I used the word "forum" to describe it. Commented Aug 18, 2014 at 15:36
1

People, I think that you are imagining yourself to be more important than you really are. (I wanted to write "Dear Experts", but it kept automatically deleting those words. What is that?..)

StackOverflow and/or Meta SO is not such a big deal. You don't need an "Academy" to teach people to use it. If there are too many people answering questions, that's fine; then we don't need more. If there are too many people asking questions that are already answered, it is fine to close those questions. Aside from that, do you imagine people in their sane mind actually attending this "SO Academy"? Don't you think that people have better things to do with their lives? Of course, you can tell them that to be "real programmers" they must learn how to navigate SO, but this is nonsense.

There is really no problem. You don't need to "help newbies"; this is not the only place on the Internet where you can get help. Just relax. Go back to your work, your girlfriend, or whatever.

2
  • I love this perspective; it's the true answer, although not the one that will be enacted. I will say in response, however, that there are many, many new users/askers who think that SO is a big deal (see third paragraph) -- indeed the be-all, end-all of "programming help". I've seen this view that SO's popularity creates an obligation on it to be accessible and welcoming expressed many times, by veterans and newbs. I don't agree with it, but that's what Jon (maybe believes and) is responding to.
    – jscs
    Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 18:21
  • I see. I guess, it's the fate of everything good created by people, that people start to identify with it and expect the impossible, whether from Facebook, health care, democracy, etc. Commented Aug 22, 2014 at 18:56
-19

Would it really kill people to fix questions instead of VTCing them? Especially the ones that are phrased as recommendation questions but are trivially fixable, or the ones that are by-the-book "too broad" that are trivially fixable?

Because I think that would go a hell of a long way toward making SO more welcoming to new users. Far more than an extensive list of "don't use the following key phrase" and "hey, someone's going to close your question if you use this one wording; use this other one instead" rules possibly could.

14
  • 10
    How would a recommendation question be fixable, trivially or otherwise? Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 3:37
  • 2
    @AdamRackis: A recommendation question, or something phrased as a recommendation question? You can state a clear and relevant question then follow it up with "what libraries or techniques can I use?" and that makes it a recommendation question for people who like VTCing because it uses recommendation-question phrasing. We don't need these sorts of stupid gotchas.
    – tmyklebu
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 3:39
  • 3
    Right but most recommendation questions lack the clear and relevant question part. They're usually just what JavaScript libraries can I use to do ____ There's no saving a question like that. Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 3:42
  • @AdamRackis: Most of what's in the tub is bathwater. Throw out the bathwater. Don't throw out the baby. And most questions, recommendation or not, are unfixable crap.
    – tmyklebu
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 3:44
  • 5
    7200 new questions per day.
    – user456814
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 3:50
  • 1
    @Cupcake: Point being? What I draw from that is that we need to lower the false positive rate of our crap-filtering. And, to me, that means actually reading the questions to see whether they're crap.
    – tmyklebu
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 3:59
  • 9
    This does happen a lot. But it is not a panacea. As others have pointed out, lots of these questions are unfixable. Or at least, the people who voted to close them thought that they were unfixable. If you have a different opinion, well, that's why the edit link is there on your screen, too. It is also important to consider that closure is a temporary state. We want to get potentially problematic questions closed as quickly as possible to prevent a flood of answers that will be obsoleted by edits to improve the question. Once the question gets closed, it can be edited, and then reopened.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 15, 2014 at 9:54
  • @CodyGray: That doesn't seem to be why people VTC, though; questions attract close votes when they fit into one of the several narrow buckets of "closeable questions" either because they're garbage or because of an entirely fixable accident of wording. Maybe this is productive 95% of the time, but that's not quite what "more good than harm" means.
    – tmyklebu
    Commented Aug 16, 2014 at 0:08
  • 4
    Well, there's been a lot of discussion by some of the veterans about the particular canned close vote reasons that exist now. A lot of us don't like them, for many reasons. They are rarely an accurate reflection of the true problems with the post, they use a lot of weasel words (like "unclear what you're asking") that make us close voters sound stupid, and they do define narrow buckets of acceptability that should not be so narrowly defined. I agree with you there. But I think that's a flaw with the close reasons, not with the system of closing and reopening problematic questions.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 16, 2014 at 11:16
  • @CodyGray: I guess that's a big part of it. Reason I bring it up here is that I think it's a failure of meta's mentoring process---people are closing questions because they can, not because the questions they're closing need closing. Lost in "stem the tide of crap questions" was "but try not to stem the tide of interesting questions."
    – tmyklebu
    Commented Aug 17, 2014 at 9:42
  • I'm a frequent close voter. I think the process of VTC does more good than harm, since we have a lot of people who have gotten so used to "the culture of free" on the web that they seem to want work done for nothing. Some new users are actually quite explicit about this, without fully understanding that we're a community of volunteers. The minimum question quality is thus a good defence against help vampirism, and the Stack Exchange sites are one of the most active forces on the web to combat it.
    – halfer
    Commented Aug 17, 2014 at 18:52
  • OP, your overall point might be worth raising as a new MSO question - "Can we fix up posts rather than closing them?". In most cases I don't think we can - for example, posts that are too broad generally are missing code, and of course we can't supply code on behalf of the asker. FWIW I am very much on the "be nice" side of the civility debate, but nevertheless some questions just aren't useful, and cannot be rescued.
    – halfer
    Commented Aug 17, 2014 at 18:55
  • 1
    @halfer: I'm on the "be rude" side of the civility debate. I also frequently VTC. But people aren't thinking, they're VTCing questions because they step on our stupid wording landmines by accident. Every time we close an interesting question, that means we have to close 100 or so crap questions just to get the concentration of interesting questions back to where it was, and I don't think we should be digging a bigger hole. (But I think I've made my point here.)
    – tmyklebu
    Commented Aug 17, 2014 at 19:14
  • In my little corners of SO I see lots of posts with close votes that are fixable. Sometimes it's that there are multiple tags and voters don't realize that it's an ok, even good, question in one of the tags. Other times I'll recognize the question as something I've seen and know the answer to but the question really isn't good enough for the answer, so I'll ask the OP a set of questions that they need to answer to make it into a good question.
    – Elin
    Commented Aug 24, 2014 at 13:51

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