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This is the latest comment to be flagged in what is becoming a trend in faux rude/abusive flags.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I cannot see anything rude or abusive in this comment, in fact they use the word "Please".

Comments requesting more details, clarification or a MCVE are not rude or abusive. In fact, that is what comments are for.

When should I comment?

You should submit a comment if you want to:

  • Request clarification from the author;
  • Leave constructive criticism that guides the author in improving the post;
  • Add relevant but minor or transient information to a post (e.g. a link to a related question, or an alert to the author that the question has been updated).

There's been a decent upheaval in the community since Jay Hanlon's "Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming" blog. We are questioning what we can do to make new users feel more welcome on the site. There has been a spike in rude/abusive flags on comments.

There seems to be this backlash that any type of critique is rude or abusive. No it's not. It's vital for the site to sift through content and vet out poor quality posts. If someone takes the time to leave a comment (in a courteous manner) on how the post can be improved, it is not rude, nor is it unwelcoming. It's how the site works, we help each other improve the content, questions and answers.

Now if a user comments repeatedly under a post telling the poster what's wrong it can become counterproductive and isn't welcoming, it can become overwhelming. Likewise if someone insults or attacks someone, this is not acceptable. No one is saying that it's ok to harass people or abuse people. BUT it is OK to give constructive feedback under posts.

If someone is rude or abusive, or is badgering someone, by all means flag the comment.

People, generally don't like criticism, it's hard to take posts being downvoted, marked as duplicates, or someone telling us, it needs to be improved. But it's a requirement of posting on the site. The posts are critiqued, it's the nature of the voting and reputation system to float good content up with votes and remove poor content from the front page when it's downvoted. This is what makes the site useful for the programming community.

The way to minimise the possibility that someone will leave a comment like this is to study the help center and follow the guidelines.

The Oxford Dictionary defines:

rude - Offensively impolite or bad-mannered.

and

abusive -
1. Extremely offensive and insulting.
2. Engaging in or characterized by habitual violence and cruelty.
3. Involving injustice or illegality.

Suggesting a link to read on how to improve the post, is none of these.

So please stop flagging these types of comments as rude or abusive.

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    In many ways this really needs to be expanded, as there's a plethora of inappropriate comment flags. People need to be able to take constructive feedback.
    – user3956566
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 12:03
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    I wonder how many of those who flag constructive feedback are also paying attention to Meta. :/ Totally agreed, even though I don't quite know what more can be done to address this.
    – E_net4
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 12:05
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    While I entirely agree that a comment like this doesn't warrant a rude/abusive flag, it could be pointless noise worthy of a "no longer needed" flag, depending upon the context. Commenters sometimes demand MCVEs on non-debugging questions where there's no reason to provide one.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 12:15
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    it's a vulnerability that we call "the anti-flag 2-way handshake"
    – towc
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 12:15
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    Requesting an MCVE would be OK without the word "please", too. But when dealing with new users, I believe we should add that word. New users have enough to deal with. We can teach them that we don't really do "please", "thanks" etc once they have been eased in. Commented May 17, 2018 at 12:20
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    don't tell me this is the beginning of the please and smiley face meme.
    – user3956566
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 12:20
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    Oh, that blog post is just... blaaah
    – Alon Eitan
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 12:23
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    @SurajRao "We apologise for any inconvenience that voting down, closing and deletion of your question may have caused you, and we appreciate your understanding. Thanks for your cooperation, looking forward to hearing from you after 6 months of question block!"
    – gnat
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 12:29
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    @S.L.Barth For new users I think it's more important to explain why they need to add a mcve than just simply adding please. Commented May 17, 2018 at 12:29
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    @AndréKool IMHO the words "minimal"+ "complete" + "verifiable" +"example" with a link to a nice page is enough for me to know why I should do that. We do not have to treat new visitors as babies.
    – KarelG
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 12:33
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    @AndréKool I think S.L. Barth doesn't mean we must always add "please", but something very different: if a comment isn't fundamentally problematic once you add "please", it probably isn't fundamentally problematic in its original form either. On the other hand, "Please get lost, doofus" is problematic in spite of the "please".
    – duplode
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 12:37
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    @AndréKool yes, it is true that lots of people uses the abbreviation of it. There is a shortcut which autolinks the whole sentence as comment: [mcve]. But not many people is aware of that it seems.
    – KarelG
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 12:39
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    @DavidG I think with "decent upheaval", she meant that there was a lot of heated debate, not that she had measured changes. Commented May 17, 2018 at 12:46
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    @AndréKool I have rolled it back. "Please provide a MCVE" comments are very often directed to new users, and the broader discussion about how new users should be onboarded is relevant here.
    – duplode
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 14:13
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    Is this a question or an ultimatum? ;-)
    – cs95
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 19:53

2 Answers 2

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As someone who posts these links quite often under questions that are in severe need of a facelift, I completely concur. We've even graciously been given access to shortcuts that make it easy to post comments like this. Just type "Please provide a [mcve]", and you're done.

This is not rude OR abusive. I'd even go so far as to say it is helpful.

However.

It can be seen as terse, or even condescending by some, mainly due to its brevity. A message that short would suggest that you, as a person, are not worth the commenter's time anymore beyond a terse one line directive (even if it does begin with "please") and (possibly) a downvote.

I understand that users are expected to do their homework before posting, but not everyone does and that's just the reality of things. That doesn't necessarily imply that the user is not worth your time. Oftentimes they only need a bit more guidance, or a little more help in figuring out just how they can provide that minimal example. And it isn't always easy, depending on the tag or the software under discussion.

I've seen so many questions which were initially unclear or too broad, but based on some helpful comments from commenters, ended up becoming answerable, some even going onto become highly upvoted by many others.

To this end, I'd like to urge users who are kind enough to leave comments to preface your link to a MCVE with a little text. Understand OP's problem, what information is needed to solve their problem, and what is lacking. Explain what is required to make their question answerable. If you want to leave a comment, but don't want to invest time into writing it, feel free to use canned comments if you so wish. There are a lot of user scripts out there on StackApps that let you paste meaningful canned comments on posts. An example of a meaningful, helpful canned comment would look like:

Hello and welcome to Stack Overflow! In order to be able to answer your question, we would need to know more details about the error you're facing so we can understand what the problem is. Please paste the full traceback as text in your question, along with the least amount of code and/or input needed to generate it. For more details, see how to provide a [mcve]. You may also look at [ask] for tips on polishing your question.

How does this sound?

In the spirit of encouraging improvement, as PM 2Ring wisely noted, it would be good to check back on users every now and then to see if they've made any progress toward improving their question. If you've instated a downvote or close vote, please consider reversing it and let OP know you appreciate their efforts.

At the same time, please also keep in mind that, while we want users to learn and improve, we cannot help and handhold everybody, it just isn't a tractable solution. If you find you're stuck in a situation where OP just isn't responsive enough to feedback and criticism, that's a good sign it's time to abort.

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    I agree with adding at least one example of what is missing or extraneous. It helps "prove" you read the question, which sometimes posters think we don't.
    – Shepmaster
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 20:25
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    @Shepmaster While I don't fully disagree, I don't feel that I need to fully understand the question and all it's intricacies to see that it's missing an MCVE or an error message or some other crucial part and so on. I post a canned comment that lists all the things your post needs and move on. If they can't be bothered to read all the help that's available or my two sentence summarizing comment then perhaps they aren't ready to be helped on SO and should seek help elsewhere.
    – JeffC
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 20:57
  • @JeffC Yes. All other things equal, if one cannot understand the question, that's usually because it is missing the MCVE.
    – cs95
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 21:09
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    @JeffC Oh, I don't think you need to fully understand the post, either. However, if the comment has no details ("post a MCVE") or it's a rote list of things where some of them are already present, then I understand why someone would ignore that / become upset ("yeah, I already posted one, jeez").
    – Shepmaster
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 21:10
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    And it isn't always easy, depending on the tag or the software under discussion. — A thing I'm starting to do is collect tag-specific MCVE guidance on the corresponding tag wiki page. A recent question (Could we add a tag-specific MCVE page?) is a feature request encouraging promoting this to be more prominent, but for now I just link to that info in my comments (when I remember).
    – Shepmaster
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 21:19
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    @JeffC I think it's not so binary. To state my position plainly (which I think agrees with cᴏʟᴅsᴘᴇᴇᴅ): "Please provide a [MCVE]" should be enough and is not rude. However. Based on my own anecdata, tailoring comments to the specific post has a higher success rate. I've only recently started using a commenting addon, but I make sure to fill in something specific when using it. One way of applying this to your example is to delete the things from your list that don't apply to the post in question.
    – Shepmaster
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 22:49
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    I think the verbose message sometimes does more harm than good, it seems like a canned response. I tend to go for "Please provide a [mcve]. In particular, it would help for us to see your inputs A & B together with your desired output. Also, can you indicate what is wrong with your current solution?" It takes around 30 seconds extra to give the specific guidance, but it's well worth it. I often see some positive results from very poor initial questions.
    – jpp
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 22:52
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    @JeffC I'm not sure I think it's worth my time — when we get to the point of commenting, we've already decided to expend X amount of effort to attempt to communicate with the human on the other end of the line. For me, it's usually worth adding another X/10 of time to try and make sure the message is heard. When I don't feel like this, I downvote and move on.
    – Shepmaster
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 22:53
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    @cᴏʟᴅsᴘᴇᴇᴅ, Let me put it this way. It feels like a load of small print copy-pasted from somewhere which legally is all well & good, but seldom sinks in. Neither of us have real data. I just get the sense when I started off I replied with the canned & got little improvement, but now get more responses by being specific. But again that's just a sense, we need controlled tests. Many people think the 30 seconds is not worth the effort, they are perfectly entitled to hold that view.
    – jpp
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 23:32
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    Conversely, if you post a comment asking for a MCVE, please check back to see if the OP has done so, especially if you also downvoted / closevoted due to lack of MCVE. Sure, a lot of the time the OP just abandons or deletes the question, but not always, especially if later commenters go to the trouble to explain why we need a MCVE. Or helps the OP to compose a MCVE by suggesting which sections of their program that need to go into a MCVE (although that mostly applies when the original question was a ginormous code dump of their complete program).
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 18:46
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    FWIW I always go for "Please provide a [mcve]" line, the reasoning being if the user wants more explanation, they'd ask. I did write specific stuff in there a long time ago, but didn't find it particularly successful. I also find the fluffy canned comment somewhat obnoxious.
    – Passer By
    Commented May 19, 2018 at 9:19
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    "Please provide an [mcve]" is four words. Your proposed comment has 80(!) words, but does not provide any more information. Its 20 times as long. In other words, it has 95% unneeded boilerplate. If a question (or answer) had 95% boilerplate, it would be downvoted and/or heavily edited. Why should comments be held to a different standard? Why should we go from a good signal-to-noise ratio to a whopping 1:20 (or worse) signal-to-noise ratio in comments?
    – Polygnome
    Commented May 19, 2018 at 14:29
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    @coldspeed I do not get your point. Both a canned and a customized response can be short and to the point and not completely overloaded with unnecessary fluff. We edit fluff out of questions/answers because its unneeded and just bloat.
    – Polygnome
    Commented May 19, 2018 at 15:29
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    @coldspeed Curios, so you think being straight to the point is impersonal and sounds like a machine? I mostly feel the exact opposite, I always appreciate it when people give me information as compact as possible with as little fluff as possible... but I'm interested in getting stuff done, not socializing. And SO used to be about getting stuff done, that is why I am here at least.
    – Polygnome
    Commented May 19, 2018 at 16:00
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    Why don't we just add the "full traceback" (and possibly "example input/output") to the [mcve] page instead?
    – user202729
    Commented May 20, 2018 at 6:33
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Most of coldspeed's answer is good, valuable and informative. However, I think much its content is based on a flawed premise. I do have one particular concern which I cover at the end.

While a large number of these flags seem to imply some people believe MCVE flags are rude/abusive, I really don't think that's the case. In fact the entire discussion here indicates there's pretty much universal agreement that even in their tersest form these comments are not rude/abusive.


@Yvette, your "question?" (though I don't really see a question), might have been better structured as asking: "Why are so many of these comments being flagged, and what can be done to reduce the false-flagging?"

As mentioned earlier, I believe coldspeed missed the mark. The problem comes down to the mechanics of the site. When a user asks a poor question typically 3 things start to happen:

  • Down-votes
  • Close-votes
  • And comments

The user perceives themselves as being attacked on 3 fronts. And of those 3, the user has no "protection mechanism" except to flag comments. And regardless of whether any of the comments are rude/abusive, that's the user's perception; and they react defensively.

Now when the user sees a MCVE request alongside down/close votes, they might believe (often incorrectly) that the commenter also gave a negative vote. Furthermore, given that many people struggle to receive criticism (no matter how constructive), a comment that accurately highlights a flaw in their question may be seen as encouraging others to also down/close vote.

So the user, feeling trapped, lashes out by flagging comments. The biggest target will be any comments that truly are rude/abusive. But the next targets are requests for clarification/more information and even very helpful comments that are unrelated to the user's problem. (I have seen a user rage-quit over a couple of down votes but net +ve score when: in addition to the answer to his problem, there were some comments pointing out other bugs in his code that he felt offended by.)

The irony is that an up-tick in the flagging of MCVE comments might in fact suggest there's been a reduction in truly rude/abusive comments. It also hints at a possible 'off-the-wall' disruptive influencer approach to tackling the problem:
When a question is hit with negative votes and receives a MCVE request; have the system generate a mildly offensive comment that the user can flag and get deleted without any repercussions to anyone, but puts the user 'at-ease' about the site. (Yes, this suggestion is a little tongue-in-cheek, but allegedly such subtle tricks to subconsciously influence people can be effective.)

More to the point is that: as long as the site limits the defensive actions available when a user rightly/wrongly feels attacked, they're more likely to engage in false-flagging. And the comments that are, shall we say "ranked lower on the user's immediate gratification bar", will be flagged more often. This is where some of coldspeed's answer might improve an MCVE request's position on the afore-mentioned bar. But that doesn't really solve the problem; it just moves the flagging to less "clear cut" but still acceptable comments. (And when, NB not "if", but: when moderators make mistakes accepting false-flags they'll be fuelling antagonism against valuable contributors.)

Suggestion 1

As alluded to earlier, effectively the site itself is a contributor to the user feeling abused. There are 2 things the user is almost defenceless against; also the 2 that are usually the bigger contributors to feeling abused.

If the site offered the user an option to "flag" the negative voting, this should go a long way to reducing false-flags. But obviously the votes are not abusive no matter what the user may feel. So these flags would have to be almost always ignored. (Like the VTC queue currently.) And I would argue that if the site were to dishonestly create a false impression that a user's concerns would be investigated, then it would be genuinely and egregiously abusive.

However, if that "flag" is used as an entry point to structured guidance, it becomes an opportunity to help the user improve their question and learn more about the site:

  • It can be frustrating to see down votes, but people on this site want to help. They wouldn't be here otherwise. If you improve your question the votes will change. Did you know you can edit your question at any time.
  • If someone asked you for information in the comments, please edit your question so that anyone trying to help has all the information needed to answer.
  • Down votes can mean people don't understand your question. It can help to include a small paragraph with a background explanation.
  • Sometimes users spend so much effort writing the question they forget to ask the actual question clearly enough. Does your question clearly explain what your problem is? Is your problem that: (1) The program doesn't compile. (2) The program compiles and runs, but does something wrong.
    • Doesn't compile: Have you shown the exact line the compiler complains about? Have you provided the exact error message?
    • Does something wrong:
    • Have you provided sample input?
    • Do you get an error message? What is it?
    • What happens? What do you expect to happen?

The prompts can even be slightly dynamic:

  • Someone asked you for a MCVE. This is a very important step because without it people are forced to guess and that's not very helpful. Do you know how to create a MCVE? (with appropriate links/menus)
  • Someone has suggested a possible duplicate to your question. Obviously the other question is not exactly the same as yours. But it is very likely that one of its answers will be helpful; and solve your problem much more quickly. If none of those answers help, you can edit your question to explain why your question is different.

Suggestion 2

Add functionality to draw from a library of canned comments that have been curated. This somewhat overlaps with coldspeed's answer. I'd like to emphasise the importance of this being a library of comments. Current templates like [mcve] are woefully insufficient.

  • Database questions usually require table structures and sample data.
  • I've seen a geometry question that needed a simple picture.
  • Some questions need input values, some don't.
  • Many times MCVE is requested but user objects "I've provided my whole program." Sometimes with the addendum: "in a link". In these cases canned comments focusing on specific problems such as "not minimal" or "not verifiable" would be useful.

In addition, make the canned-comments fixed (like vote-to-close messages) so that there's zero chance of injecting something that could be deemed rude. This provides a guarantee that they're "safe" and it should not be possible to flag these comments as rude/abusive. But it should be possible to flag as "out of context". E.g. MCVE not required because question is answerable based on given error message. Or MCVE has since been provided.

I must point out that I do have a concern with this suggestion. As mentioned above it just provides a deflector for these specific comments. And users lashing out defensively would likely just find some normal comments to false-flag. We all know that moderators are human and not infallible. It's inevitable that they will occasionally incorrectly accept such false-flags. And this has its own negative consequences.


Finally, I mentioned I had a particular concern with coldspeed's answer.

I'd like to urge users who are kind enough to leave comments to preface your link to a MCVE with a little text.

To be a little blunt. I'm not employed or paid by Stackoverflow. Any extra information I choose to include or exclude is my prerogative; dependent on my mood, available time, and assessment of the effort the questioner put into the original question. In fact, I consider the pedantic 15 char rule on the site that prevents [mcve] being an acceptable comment to be a problem. If I could simply submit [mcve] to indicate the MCVE is required, then if someone chooses to bikeshed the template with flowery insincere platitudes, they're welcome to do so without affecting me.

I'm happy to use curated comments, and there are many benefits to this. Whatever is determined as the "correct" comment for a given situation, it can easily be improved over time. So when it's used on newer question it may be more useful and of more benefit to future readers by linking to explanations: why MCVE is required, how to reduce irrelevant code, how to ensure it's verifiable etc.

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    I agree with a lot of your ideas and suggestions. Have a browse through my posts you will see some of my suggestions in the form of questions and answers. The "question" or point of this post was to try and direct people to flag appropriately and brainstorm for ideas. It also gives us a canonical link to show people. This type of post also encourages our longer term user base, as they often feel disenfranchised and need support. Thanks for such a well written answer. Nice to meet you.
    – user3956566
    Commented Oct 6, 2018 at 10:44
  • @YvetteColomb Nice to meet you too. I've seen quite a few of your posts which is partly why I chose to answer. For the record, I'm one of those feeling disenfranchised, and watching to see if things improve. Though personally I fear the problems run much deeper than something tooling can solve. The "welcome campaign" is a case in point. It seems to me like a knee-jerk reaction in the wrong direction at the expense of one of the essential pillars to the success of SO.
    – user10461681
    Commented Oct 6, 2018 at 10:58
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    In what way do you feel disenfranchised? What can I do to help?
    – user3956566
    Commented Oct 6, 2018 at 11:11
  • @YvetteColomb Your offer is intriguing, but I fear my candour would not be tolerated. The last time I was open and honest: I received backlash, insults, abuse, and stonewalling (from someone who should know better). It left me highly stressed and struggling to sleep for at least 3 days. My blood pressure spiked to almost 200/100. And for months, web searches finding SO pages would cause me anxiety. I haven't yet seen any improvement in culture that would allow me to feel safe. So I respectfully decline your offer.
    – user10461681
    Commented Oct 7, 2018 at 6:19

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