57

declined - While we understand your concern(s), the "rude/abusive" flag should only be used when the post is completely unsalvageable and needs deletion. This post can (and should have been) fixed by editing.

I completely disagree with this, the post was clearly rude and abusive (before OP's own edit after deletion) and deserved the flag (screenshot of the offending post revision for <10k users)

What you're saying is that a rude contributor can indefinitely escape being flagged as rude as long as they also include valuable content in their posts. This makes no sense to me.

Moreover, it's the first time I'm told about this "rule" - I definitely have flagged many similar posts in the past and these flags were never declined for such a reason, whether the post was edited or not.

Also now the post has been deleted by a moderator. So which is it, salvageable or not?

It would be really nice if moderators could act in a more coherent manner: give us actual rules and we'll follow them.

So, is it just one misunderstanding/misfire, which I can totally understand, or is it an actual rule, which I can't? I'd like a definitive explanation about this, please. Thank you. :)

Please note that I'm not complaining about this one mod - this is more a general remark about how the site works. I know mods do hard work and I thank them for that, including this one.

34
  • 25
    Screenshot for us <10k plebs?
    – user438383
    Jun 11, 2022 at 16:23
  • 12
    "What you're saying is that a rude contributor can indefinitely escape being flagged as rude as long as they also include valuable content in their posts. This makes no sense to me." I think it makes less sense to destroy unrelated content to removed just because it's next to rude content. Rudeness should not be tolerated, however, you could have just edited it out and modflagged. It's not the whole post which was rude or abusive, the flag didn't really fit.
    – VLAZ
    Jun 11, 2022 at 16:29
  • 15
    @VLAZ If we should only use the R/A flag when the whole post is R/A, then I’d like to see that written and confirmed by a moderator. This is the goal of my question: is it an opinion or is it a rule? I’m asking for clarity and consistency.
    – Eric Aya
    Jun 11, 2022 at 16:33
  • 8
    R/A also comes with heavy penalties for the author of the post, including a 100 reputation deduction, it's really only for the irredeemable. Jun 11, 2022 at 16:39
  • 19
    A user telling me that I’m a sheep (and other things) deserves the penalty, in my opinion. Of course I will follow the consensus- when there’s one. For now I only see different opinions.
    – Eric Aya
    Jun 11, 2022 at 16:41
  • 2
    You think the whole content deserves to be nuked? Where is the guidance for that?
    – VLAZ
    Jun 11, 2022 at 16:42
  • 5
    I think calling the moderator attitude incoherent, pedantic and unfair deserves it, but we can't all win. Jun 11, 2022 at 16:42
  • 3
    Nah, maybe we delete the entire post. It's all the same, right? Or does it suddenly become salvageable now?
    – VLAZ
    Jun 11, 2022 at 16:44
  • 3
    In general, R/A flags on posts with salvageable content are disputed by mods instead of being declined outright. We had a discussion about this in SOCVR a while ago when several R/A flags on a post were bulk-declined. Has something changed regarding the sentiment towards these flags? Jun 11, 2022 at 17:02
  • 3
    I'm not sure how the current duplicate target fits. The target is talking about a R/A flag on a Meta post, which is quite a different situation. As the linked answer to the target says, there's considerably more leeway on Meta. e.g. a rant that would be edited into shape on Meta would likely deserve a R/A flag on main. (Also, the flag in question was disputed, not declined, as in this situation).
    – cigien
    Jun 11, 2022 at 17:05
  • 2
    IMO the fact it's about a meta flag is irrelevant, the answer is the same: "I commonly will dispute offensive flags on posts where an edit can bring them back into shape" and a decline or a dispute are essentially the same thing. Jun 11, 2022 at 17:51
  • 8
    If there is mixed content (both valuable and ranty stuff) and editing or commenting doesn't resolve the content issue, raise a custom mod flag and explain the issue at hand. That will put any mod handling the flag into right mindset. Only raise a red-flag on posts that are 99% off-limits. Also don't raise a red-flag to punish users. Punishing is done by mods, not by you. When I use my custom flags to alert mods about behaviorally aspects of a user I suggest to check for a pattern on previous/deleted posts. In no way I'm in a position to make the judgement call if a suspension is warranted.
    – rene
    Jun 11, 2022 at 18:03
  • 5
    You don't need to slow down on flagging when it comes to content. But when you switch in your mind to reasoning about the user, always use a custom flag and hand-off facts to our elected janitors. That is where your and my role ends. And don't be bothered by whatever (in-)action a mod decides on.
    – rene
    Jun 11, 2022 at 18:15
  • 2
    ”A user telling me that I’m a sheep..” They said “sheep without a shepherd” which is not the same thing as calling people “mindless sheep”, which I suspect is how you took it. (Don’t get me wrong, it was still a weird rant.)
    – BSMP
    Jun 11, 2022 at 22:27
  • 2
    I'm voting to reopen this question, as the linked target doesn't apply here at all. There are, in fact, several answers in the comments here already, none of which are covered in the current duplicate target. Also, declined and disputed flags are not remotely the same thing; the only thing have in common is that they were handled.
    – cigien
    Jun 12, 2022 at 0:05

2 Answers 2

72

You have somehow developed the mistaken impression that "rude/abusive" flags cast on posts are flagging the user. They aren't; they're flagging the post. A "rude/abusive" flag means that the post itself (the one you've flagged) is inherently rude and/or abusive (in a way that makes it utterly unsalvageable via edits) and is in need of immediate removal.

The answer you flagged clearly wasn't either of those things, as evidenced by a moderator's edit to the answer that removed the rude portions and left a valid answer.

This is not new policy. It has always been the case that standard flags ("spam", "rude/abusive", "not an answer", "very low quality", etc.) are cast on posts, not on users, and that posts should not be flagged as "rude/abusive" when an edit can be made that salvages the post (i.e., removes the rude/abusive bits and turns it into a valid question/answer).

See the global Meta FAQ on the red flags, specifically the guideline that:

If an otherwise valid post contains vulgar words as an expression of frustration, edit the bad part out instead of flagging the entire post as rude or abusive. If this results in an edit war or rollback war, flag for moderator attention.

and the guidance not to use the flag:

If any part of the post can be salvaged, edit out the rant-y parts. If not, vote or flag to close as Opinion-based (for questions) or flag as not an answer (for answers).

So, I suppose, to answer your titular question explicitly: no, a post containing valuable content should not be flagged as "rude/abusive". Such a post should be edited to remove the rude/abusive content, leaving the "valuable content". No moderator intervention is required here, so no flag is needed. Anyone can edit a post, even an anonymous user (they just have to suggest an edit, which has to be reviewed and approved by other trusted users). Given your earned privilege level, you can submit an edit that requires no additional intervention from moderators or other users and takes effect immediately. It should be obvious why this choice of action is strongly preferable to raising a flag. "Rude/abusive" flags don't mean "a moderator should edit this to remove the rude/abusive bits". If a moderator can do that, so can (and should) the flagger.

Aside from that, as has been noted in the comments, a "rude/abusive" flag has several other aspects that make it unsuitable for salvageable posts, including the fact that 6 of them will immediately nuke post without requiring moderator intervention (so there's no guarantee that a post flagged as "rude/abusive" would ever even be seen by a moderator), and that validating a "rude/abusive" flag against a post results in a reputation penalty of −100 to the user, along with other sanctions, like hobbling their ability to continue to post.

What you're saying is that a rude contributor can indefinitely escape being flagged as rude as long as they also include valuable content in their posts. This makes no sense to me.

No, nobody said that. That's a reductio ad absurdum, enabled only by your confusion regarding what flags apply to. Since flags apply to posts, not to users, the statement's conclusion is wrong. A "rude/abusive" flag on a post would not be how you flag a rude contributor; that would only be how you flag a rude post. If you want to bring to the attention of moderators that a user has repeatedly posted answers that contain valuable content but are mixed with inappropriate rudeness (which then has to be edited out by other users), then you should raise a custom moderator flag on one of the posts. In that flag, you would present evidence (ideally, links to the answers, but mods can look up links easily as long as you describe your concerns to the best of your recollection) and request an investigation into the user's behavior.

Even if a moderator sees and validates a "rude/abusive" flag on a post, it's not likely that they're going to go looking at other posts by that user to see if they are similarly rude/abusive. A moderator is especially not going to notice that the user has previously posted other rude/abusive content that got edited out (salvaged) by other users. If you want to bring that to our attention so we can act on it, then you need to do it explicitly with a custom flag.

Custom flags are how you flag users and patterns of user behavior. The other, standard, named flags are only for flagging posts.

Moreover, it's the first time I'm told about this "rule" - I definitely have flagged many similar posts in the past and these flags were never declined for such a reason, wether the post was edited or not.

As far as I can see, the other posts you've previously flagged as "rude/abusive" were intrinsically rude/abusive, matching the description of the flag's purpose given in the decline message as well as at the beginning of my answer.

I guess that's not surprising, since I'm the one who wrote the decline message. (It's a canned decline message that can be selected from a list of reasons in a userscript. So, while I wasn't the moderator who reviewed or handled your flag, I was the moderator who wrote the message that they used when declining your flag.)

I wrote this decline message and added it as a canned option in a script because the mistake you've made here is one that is made by other users, too, from time to time. Traditionally, these are declined with the system-provided canned reason "flags should only be used for things that require moderator intervention", but, while completely true and apt as far as it goes, I felt that did not provide adequate guidance. In particular, it failed to convey why the flagged post did not require moderator intervention. So, I wrote something that I thought did explain that. I'm happy to continue iterating on the language of the flag-decline message (within the constraints of the extremely tight character limit), but I don't think the message was the actual problem here. It seems you understood it just fine, you just didn't agree with the policy.

Also now the post has been deleted by a moderator. So which is it, salvageable or not?

It would be really nice if moderators could act in a more coherent manner: give us actual rules and we'll follow them.

Yeah, I have no idea why that post was deleted by a moderator. I cannot find any justification for that action. That appears to have been the misunderstanding/misfire, not the declining of the flag. I've corrected that now.

We've given you "actual rules". What I've defined here has been the meaning of the rude/abusive flag since it was introduced. I would go so far as to claim that it's intuitive, and that your counter-proposal of flagging things that contain "valuable content" as "rude/abusive" is shooting ourselves in the collective foot.

Unfortunately, we cannot guarantee that moderators all act in the same way. That's not how humans work. Consider it a that is .

11
  • 35
    Excellent answer. I appreciate the detailed explanation, and I understand my mistake. Thank you!
    – Eric Aya
    Jun 12, 2022 at 12:03
  • 11
    On the basis of this, perhaps the rude or abusive should be changed to entirely rude or abusive? Jun 12, 2022 at 19:55
  • 16
    I do not think such a name change is a good idea, @Charlieface, but I would be in favor of adding a clause to the description of the flag saying something like "and cannot be salvaged by a third-party edit" or something like that. Jun 13, 2022 at 5:10
  • 1
    What do you mean with “Custom Flag”? There is no such thing as a “Custom Flag” in the list of choices. I know that the last bullet “in need of moderator intervention” has been said to be a kind of “Custom Flag” in past, however, recommending that is a bit strange, considering that you explained that “rude/abusive” is inappropriate because “No moderator intervention is required here, so no flag is needed”. It’s also a non-obvious inconsistency that all but that last bullet “are flagging the post”.
    – Holger
    Jun 13, 2022 at 15:03
  • 1
    @Holger For a single incident of inappropriate content in an otherwise valid answer, it is true that no flags are needed: the post should be edited instead. The flag for moderator attention is for when the user should be reported. The rest of your comment is hard to follow.
    – E_net4
    Jun 13, 2022 at 16:17
  • 14
    @E_net4-MrDownvoter how are we supposed to know whether an incident is a single incident? Only moderators have the capability to overview all incidents—but only if they are reported. What this answer suggests, is that a user can be rude/abusive a thousand times, as long as it hits thousand different users, who are all expected to edit the post and not to bother the moderators, because each user has been hit only a single time.
    – Holger
    Jun 13, 2022 at 16:33
  • @Holger All posts have a revision history, and multiple rollbacks on a single post automatically issue a flag for investigation. There is also no point in underestimating the curator base and the automations in place for detecting persistent rudeness. Recurrent incidents are not overlooked so easily.
    – E_net4
    Jun 13, 2022 at 16:40
  • 8
    @E_net4-MrDownvoter why should a moderator inspect the revision history of posts that never got flagged? There are millions of post edits each day and if we just edit out the offending part, without flagging, as instructed, these edits are indistinguishable from ordinary edits.
    – Holger
    Jun 13, 2022 at 16:47
  • @Holger It doesn't have to be moderators noticing the pattern. Regular users with the flagging privilege can bring it to attention. I can speak for myself that I often check the post's revision history when I find inappropriate content, since it's an easy way to roll it back if applicable.
    – E_net4
    Jun 13, 2022 at 17:08
  • And in any case, if you advocate for users to always be punished for any of these incidents, nothing stops you from flagging the post for moderator attention as it appears the first time. It might even be merited, depending on the severity of the content. But YMMV, and users don't always get suspended over a single bad comment anyway.
    – E_net4
    Jun 13, 2022 at 17:10
  • 2
    @Holger It is not that complicated. If you, personally, notice that the same user has a pattern of behaviour, use a custom flag (by choosing the "in need of moderator intervention" option). This situation does call for moderator intervention, because now there is something known about the user, and moderators can intervene by sending the user a special kind of message about the behaviour. If you do not notice such a pattern, then there is only something known about the post. Do not flag the post, because the situation does not call for intervention. Instead, edit out the bad parts. Jun 13, 2022 at 22:34
-15

He didnt say a single rude or abusive thing. Maybe you are just too sensitive?

9
  • 5
    Are you sure you're looking at the correct revision of the post? It has been edited by moderators since the original version posted by the author to remove rude bits. I have a pretty high bar for what I consider "rude/abusive", but "In this site, a lot of people are rabbles,or sheeps without a shepherd!" is a pretty clear personal attack, which we don't allow here. Jun 14, 2022 at 12:57
  • 2
    Yes I have and honestly I dont see anything as bad as you make it out to be. The man gave the correct answer. What is the issue? Jun 14, 2022 at 13:00
  • 8
    That the correct answer was given, despite some rude content also being given, is basically the whole point of this discussion. The person who asked this question through it was appropriate to flag the whole thing for removal, because it contained what was, in their opinion, rude/abusive content. I explained to them that it is the position of the moderator team that salvageable answers that incidentally contain rude commentary should be fixed by editing, not flagging or deletion. So, that's the issue. Jun 14, 2022 at 13:08
  • 6
    That you don't find calling users on this site "rabbles" or "sheeps without a shepherd" to be either rude or a personal attack, well, I disagree with that, but it's certainly understandable that you would have a different opinion. Everyone is entitled to have their own opinion. If you don't think something is rude, you shouldn't flag it or remove it. Jun 14, 2022 at 13:09
  • 1
    @JosipJuros The post was not horribly insulting, sure, I've seen much worse, but it was abusive nonetheless, as were some comments (now deleted). My personal sensitivity indeed led me to flag the whole thing as abusive, in reaction to OP's tone. But Cody Gray explained very well in their answer why it was the wrong thing to do in this particular case. I don't have any issues with this situation anymore.
    – Eric Aya
    Jun 14, 2022 at 14:45
  • 1
    I actually appreciate being told outright when I'm lost as I often don't understand that I am. The fact that my offering of an answer or question is being judged does not, to me, imply that I'm obliged to agree with it. If I decide to agree with a harsh judgement, is my choice. This answer, while offering a form of judgement, was not the least bit offensive to me.
    – Chris
    Jun 14, 2022 at 15:29
  • @EricAya Other people took time out of their own day to study up on your issue and solve it for you by giving you the correct answer. Not being offended by their tone is the least you can do for someone doing that. Also I checked the edit history (IDK if im missing something) He first provided only the answer and then edited it leading me to believe people called him out on something even tho the answer was correct. Still I see no issue with this. Jun 15, 2022 at 10:15
  • @JosipJuros That wasn't an answer to one of Eric Aya's questions. They just happened to be passing by.
    – F1Krazy
    Jun 15, 2022 at 10:34
  • @F1Krazy My point still applies Jun 15, 2022 at 10:35

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .