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I've started down voting and commenting to provide friendly but firm guidance to new members. Here is an example from C# Closures in LINQ expressions:

Welcome to StackOverflow. You will receive better responses to your questions if the code compiles. Consider pasting your example in to dotnetfiddle.net to verify that it compiles. This guide too can be helpful: stackoverflow.com/help/mcve

Does my comment strike the tone that SO is trying to achieve? If not, what might be a better alternative comment?

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    I've been told You is wrong. Not being a native speaker myself but I've seen suggestions like This question contains code that doesn't compile. To receive better answers to the question it helps if the code compilies and then include those links.
    – rene
    Commented May 12, 2018 at 20:05
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    @rene: "You" is fine.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 12, 2018 at 21:02
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    @rene I don't know the context, but it is likely they meant that one should criticize the work not the author. "You are wrong" vs. "This code is wrong". Commented May 12, 2018 at 22:24
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    @ChiefTwoPencils: That's exactly the kind of over-thinking I'm not a fan of.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 12, 2018 at 22:47
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    @Cerbrus, I understand that, truly. But I don't find it to be "over-thinking". I used to pre-identify when speaking unknowingly. Things like unnecessarily stating race or gender when, as usual, has no significance to the point. I made corrections so it's something I notice all the time. I'm not suggesting anything other than to consider it and maybe notice it. Commented May 12, 2018 at 22:56
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    On the other hand, people may be assigning too much value to the way someone is writing something, online. There is nothing wrong with: "The OP needs to fix his syntax errors" or ""Your/his code doesn't compile. That's not "rude" or "inconsiderate", it's just a suggestion to improve the question. That's all.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 12, 2018 at 23:03
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    @Cerbrus, true; I'm not arguing that as rude and I wasn't trying to address "rudeness". The og comment was about "You" is wrong. I was simply supporting that further not that I'm perfect in doing it all the time. But, when writing, it's a choice that you make. Commented May 12, 2018 at 23:09
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    @ChiefTwoPencils I'd go with something closer to what Increasingly Idiotic has said. If what you are going to say sounds overtly confrontational (eg. "You are wrong") it may be worth it to avoid "you"; in general, though, "you" is fine (and, under the right circumstances, it can even feel friendlier than an impersonal use of the third person).
    – duplode
    Commented May 12, 2018 at 23:10
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    Good points. I recall from The Assertiveness Workbook that criticism via "you statements" tends to be more difficult to receive. An alternative is: "Welcome to StackOverflow. Questions tend to receive a better response if the code compiles..." Commented May 12, 2018 at 23:30
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    I think the text is pretty good. It carries the necessary message, without being confrontational. Minor note: Stack Overflow is two words.
    – halfer
    Commented May 13, 2018 at 15:57
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    Passive voice can be even worse than "you statements". I like to focus on me, the narcissistic author of the comment: "I'll have an easier time understanding the question if I can compile and run the code."
    – Shog9
    Commented May 13, 2018 at 16:59
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    I've been told You is wrong. Indeed. Use thou for maximum respect.
    – Pekka
    Commented May 13, 2018 at 17:23
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    Back to the question... I didn’t realize that code compiling was a condition of posting a question. In fact, what led me to Stack Overflow initially (under another account), was the fact that code didn’t compile or operate correctly.
    – vol7ron
    Commented May 13, 2018 at 18:54
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    @vol7ron When the compiler error is your actual issue, a code example reproducing the error is a Minimal, Complete, and Verifiable example. In contrast, when the question is not about compiler errors at all, the code should compile. This is not a hard requirement. But obviously, code requiring unrelated fixes makes it harder to solve the issue.
    – Holger
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 8:21
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    Just don't write a comment. The people you're writing it to should have read the FAQ and won't pay extra attention now. Cast a close vote then the close reason in the UI will show the required information. What we have now is an incredible amount of comment noise where half the questions posted on the site have almost the entire contents of the FAQ reproduced in comments. This level of spoonfeeding will not help anyone in any meaningful way. Commented May 15, 2018 at 13:42

4 Answers 4

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I think we're fine as long as we use common sense.

There will always be new users that find any request / suggestion "rude". You don't need to be excessively nice.
For example, this user has registered 10 months ago. "Welcome" might even be considered rude, since he isn't exactly new to the site.

We all need to find a balance between "niceness" and just commenting like normal human beings.


I'd say: Speak as you like to be spoken to. Consider how the comment would come across if it were written for you.

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    Looking at a user's registration date does not speak to their use or knowledge of the site. Maybe they're the first person to welcome them. Also, I find the "any request" user to be on the fringe; no reason to be "excessively nice" but nice first; don't assume this is the user about to be rude for no good reason. Commented May 12, 2018 at 22:44
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    @ChiefTwoPencils: These are just examples, people can take offence to anything. There's no point in trying to make it impossible to take offence to what you say. I'm not saying we should assume people will take offence. I'm saying the exact opposite. I'm saying we should just use common sense.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 12, 2018 at 22:46
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    Good point. I felt a bit of a cringe from "Welcome" too, but I kept it because of the OP's reputation level. On the one hand, it conveys a charitable statement, "Oh, you're new here, so we expect mistakes." On the other hand, someone could easily interpret it as sarcasm. Commented May 12, 2018 at 23:34
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    It's really not as simple as "I think we're fine as long as we use common sense." Everyone thinks they are 'using common sense' - and yet here we are in a situation where we're told that as a community sometimes we're getting it wrong. So each person trusting to their own common sense clearly isn't sufficient.
    – AakashM
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 9:10
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    @AakashM: I don’t think we can realistically expect more than that. Some users just are rude. They need to be flagged, and that’s that. Yes, common sense is subjective, but throwing more rules at it won’t solve anything.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 10:00
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    @ShaunLuttin - FWIW: The snippets I use for this have "Welcome to Stack Overflow!" at the beginning. I replace it with "Hi!" if the user's account isn't new but hasn't been used much (or sometimes if it has been). Purely to be welcoming/engaging, start out positive. Commented May 14, 2018 at 12:56
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    We can't rely on "just use common sense" because half the site thinks common sense is to say things that violate the be nice policy, like calling someone's effort garbage.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 13:18
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    Common sense would tell us to flag those comments, @TylerH.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 13:19
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    @Cerbrus I'm not sure you understand; we can flag the comments but the problem we are trying to address here is the fact that half the site thinks it's okay to make them. Saying "just use common sense" here on Meta is stomping on the bugs when you see them but not fixing the problem of how they are getting in the house in the first place.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 13:26
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    @TylerH: I don't think users that write comments like that are reading meta in the first place. All we can do is to be more pro-active in dealing with comments like that, harshly.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 13:35
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    @Cerbrus Several active meta users of significantly high reputation (20k+) have taken this position, including one person in particular of quite high reputation who posts the same unhelpful answer on nearly every such meta question of late. And the fact that said answer gets on average 60 to 70 upvotes is troubling. I hope that your suggestion will be enough, though I highly doubt it.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 13:42
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    @TylerH Can I have links? I don't recognise the "one person in particular" you're referring to from the description you've given on them, and I'm a reasonably active Meta user. I'd be interested to see their position in their words, to judge whether I agree with your characterisation of it.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 14:16
  • @MarkAmery I'd rather not name names, to avoid targeted persecution or the appearance of it. Though of the dozen or so threads in the last several days/week I have seen this user post on what feels like, at first gut check, at least half of these with advice ranging from misguided to flat-out wrong. There are typically dozens of comments under each of these answers.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 14:25
  • "Use common sense" and "don't overthink" -- these are ways of passing the buck, or denying anything needs to change. If common sense were enough, we wouldn't have a problem.
    – senderle
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 14:43
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    @senderle: Where am I saying "most people"? My point is that adding more and more rules isn't going to help. My point is that people that don't care about being nice at all should be dealt with accordingly.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 9:03
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Cerbrus's answer suggests that we should each "Speak as you like to be spoken to". Well, with that in mind...

I would be annoyed to be on the receiving end of your comment, especially as a nervous new user trying to make a good first impression. It's imprecise about what, if anything, I've done wrong, and I'd find that frustrating and stressful. This is a defect that pretty much all boilerplate comments necessarily have, by their nature, and is a reason I'm mostly against the use of boilerplate comments.

The suggestion to paste the code into dotnetfiddle.net and check it compiles hints that maybe my code doesn't compile. But it doesn't outright say it... so maybe it does compile, and this is just a generic suggestion that you give to everyone? Have you actually checked before commenting? I can't tell.

The link to mcve.net is worse; you're suggesting that maybe you think I should trim my example down (it's not "minimal") or maybe you think I should add in boilerplate like using statements or wrapping methods in a class (it's not "complete") or maybe the code doesn't actually cause the problem I'm asking about or I haven't actually explained what the problem is clearly (it's not "verifiable"). Or maybe actually none of those things are wrong, and you're again just generically suggesting that this would be a nice page to read?

Your comment is essentially equivalent, in terms of its content, to this:

Welcome! I may or may not be displeased by your question. Maybe the code doesn't compile, or maybe it does. It's possible that you're lacking a clear problem statement, or that your code doesn't actually produce the problem you're asking about, and that this displeases me, or alternatively maybe neither of those things is the case. Additionally, I'd like you to know that you have provided either too much, too little, or exactly the correct amount of code. Have a nice day!

If you received that comment, wouldn't you think that the commenter was being unhelpful, and, honestly, a bit of a dick?

And it's actually worse than that, because you're actually sending the user off to read about 15 paragraphs of prose, in what may not be their native language, just to extract the non-information that your comment contains. (Presumably, while somehow simultaneously reading and responding to comments on the question, since we also ask askers to be available to provide clarification in response to comments.)

No matter how polite or cheerful the tone is, it can't make up for the fact that you're dumping a giant page of prose on the asker and insinuating that maybe the asker's question has one of several somewhat-subjectively-defined problems without providing any detail about which of them you think is the issue.

It's not much effort, and much, much more helpful to the asker, to write something like:

This code doesn't even compile.

or

There's way more code here than you need to demonstrate the problem. This question would be easier to understand and more useful to future readers if you trimmed it down to a minimal example.

or

You haven't provided the implementation of the frobnicate_widget() method that your sample code calls, and without it, we can't tell what's going on.

or

Your code works fine and does not produce the error that you say it does.

or

It's unclear in what way this code "doesn't work"; it does exactly what I'd expect it to. Can you edit your question to indicate what you expected?

(In the first revision of this answer, these comments began with -1; I've removed the -1s to avoid conflating this with a whole other argument about how to express criticism.)

These sorts of comments - which are unambiguous about the fact that there's a problem with the question and about what that problem is - almost certainly don't strike the tone that the staff would like us to strike, post-"welcoming" drive. Yours probably does strike that tone. And yet it seems to me that my alternatives are far more respectful to askers than your proposed comment is. I would certainly rather receive a comment in my style, that at least addresses me as an individual, than a boilerplate comment like yours.

Wouldn't you?

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    I agree with your comment suggestions but not with the fact that they all unhelpfully start with "-1". I would flag such comments on site as not constructive to get them auto-deleted. You don't need to start off being adversarial by saying "hey, I downvoted you, nah nah nah boo boo". Just say what you have to say, and if you downvoted, let the system indicate that the way it already does.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 13:22
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    If you really feel compelled to own up to the downvote, mention it after the fact, or in the context of your comment and the site's rules: `It's unclear in what way this code "doesn't work", and the site's rules require you clearly state what part of your code isn't working and how you expect it to work, so I downvoted you. Can you edit your question to indicate that information" etc.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 13:23
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    @TylerH I don't like attributing to the "rules" what are in fact subjective judgement calls about post quality made individually by me; I find it annoying when others do so, especially on the occasions when I don't agree with their judgements.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 13:31
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    @TylerH - "I would flag such comments on site as not constructive to get them auto-deleted" - holy crap, is that a thing? I knew about the -1 filter, but does including "-1" in a comment make it deletable by any individual user without moderator review?
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 13:31
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    @TylerH - "I would flag such comments on site as not constructive ... You don't need to start off being adversarial" - in what way is acknowledging a downvote "adversarial"? Even Shog9 never tried to make that case when he introduced the -1 filter; it was about avoiding retaliation, not based on an idea that the comments themselves were hostile to anyone. I can see how the downvote itself is adversarial, and how the specific criticism is adversarial, but isn't noting that you are the downvoter (and thus eliminating the mystery about the motive being the downvote) strictly a friendly act?
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 13:36
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    @TylerH I've edited to remove the -1s to avoid conflating the point about giving specific criticism with the old argument about whether to disclose downvotes. I still would include the -1, but perhaps it's best to keep the two fights separate.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 14:03
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    While I agree with your overall sentiments, your comments are rude. "This code doesn't even compile.". Why the even? Strip it. "This code does not compile". Is neutral and tells the user what they can fix. "This code does not compile, therefore I can not reproduce your problem" is even better. All of your comments could be made more neutral in similar ways. "Your code works fine and does not produce the error that you say it does." => "I can not reproduce the error with the code as provided", shifts the focus from"you did it wrong" to "I can not reproduce", it says the same, but is nicer.
    – Polygnome
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 14:21
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    @Polygnome This reminds me of a recent conversation I had with Shog9 about whether labelling an answer as "nonsense" was rude; he suggested that "incorrect" would be more polite, and I protested that that wasn't an adequate substitute because it doesn't convey the same meaning. I feel the same here. In cases where I'm sure that my inability to reproduce is the asker's fault and not mine, I don't want to shift the focus from "you did it wrong" to "I can not reproduce"; I explicitly want the asker to know that they did something wrong, and not risk having my comment understood differently.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 14:33
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    @Polygnome "But its not about who is wrong." - of course it is. If it's not the asker's fault, then there's no need for them to tweak their question and my comment is just pointless noise that should be deleted, the same as if I'd written "I'm afraid I don't know the answer to this". If I drop the detail that I can't reproduce because the provided code isn't a working example of the problem, then I'm no longer giving actionable criticism, or even obviously giving criticism at all.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 14:46
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    @Polygnome By contrast, in a case where I'm not confident that the example is broken, I might say "I can't reproduce on my machine. (FooScript++ 6.4.3, on Ubuntu, running the provided code by pasting it into the FooWhizz REPL without fast frobnication extensions installed.) Perhaps this behaviour is OS-dependent?" Fudging the distinction between those two completely separate scenarios drops information that shouldn't be dropped.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 14:48
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    @Polygnome "The error is not reproducible with the code as given" is not the wording you originally suggested, and not what my last comment was arguing against; you've entirely changed your thesis between your previous pair of comments and these ones. As for the idea that identifying the code the asker has posted as "your code" instead of "the code" could somehow be insulting, that seems like a stretch to me. Eliminating all explicit reference to the question by vaguely saying that "The code does not produce the error" without qualification just seems confusing; what code? What error?
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 15:58
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    @Polygnome If, as you say, it's generally completely obvious that "the error" and "the error that you say [the code produces]" are equal (which I don't think is always true; it depends upon the full content of the question and whether there're any errors or bits of code referenced to other than the ones included directly in the question), then how can one of those phrases "assign" more "blame" than the other? Under your premises, they're literally identical in meaning. I don't get it.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 17:00
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    @Polygnome As for "even"... is it superfluous? Probably. Is it rude? I don't think so. Reflect upon the four places you've used it when addressing me: "even on a factual level", "I have even given concrete examples", "it is not even needed", and "it might not even be OPs code". All of these "even"s serve no purpose but emphasis; they could be dropped without fundamentally changing the meaning of your comments. Should I therefore take offence at you "rubbing in" your comments by including the word? Or, perhaps, just ignore such things as a normal habit of speech that people have?
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 17:11
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    @Polygnome So "the error you are seeing" is unproblematic but "your error" is somehow insulting? Whatever logic is behind this, I don't see it; to me it's like you're just randomly labelling innocuous phrases as offensive.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 19:01
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    "Actionable and not judgemental" sums up what I believe we should aim for in comments. Your answer does a good job of emphasising the importance of making them actionable. (That, I'd add, is entirely in line with the "welcomingness drive": it is welcoming to give clear directions to new users so that they don't get even get lost.) As for the sample comments, I find them mostly fine, though the first one feels a bit curt (I'd say Polygnome's rephrasing -- "This code does not compile, therefore I can not reproduce your problem" -- is an improvement in that specific case).
    – duplode
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 0:47
3

As much as I love Stack Overflow, sometimes I find "helpful" suggestions to be (unintentionally?) judgmental. Maybe the person posting doesn't know HOW to get the code to compile and that's part of the problem. Maybe his/her first language isn't English, or they're a beginning CS student and don't even understand the problem well enough yet to know what the problem is. Remember your first days?

I see a lot of corrective hints/answers/downvotes/comments that in reality are just subjective judgement calls and I don't know think that they're much help. In this particular case, if the code sample isn't that complex, maybe it'd be more helpful to point out where the compilation error is.

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  • your inference of malicious intent is more your problem than any one else's if the comment is not empirically abusive it reflects your thinking 100% not the commentor's, think about that before you are judgmental about others intent.
    – user177800
    Commented Aug 21, 2018 at 23:44
-6

Downvoting when you're clearly aware the asker may need assistance crafting a compliant question feels terrible to a new user. I understand bad questions need to be downvoted for the site to work, but in terms of tone, it's not a great experience, particularly if you're not sticking around to help improve the question and then removing your downvote. To a new user, each small amount of rep matters, and driveby downvoting (even with a comment they may find difficult to implement due to language/skill level) essentially says "You suck, and I'm not going to help you, but I am going to take the small measure of value you do have on the site."

NB I am not at all against downvoting bad questions/answers. But from the perspective of the new user experience, it's far better receive assistance with question crafting than a bunch of demoralising downvotes. My preference is to flag for closure rather than downvoting, or to give the asker some time to improve the question (preferably after commenting/with assistance), before downvoting.

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  • I like the idea of flagging for closure instead of downvoting. That never occurred to me as a friendlier option. Commented May 15, 2018 at 15:24
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    This is paradoxical; you're aware that downvoting is necessary for the site to work, yet you actively avoid taking that necessary step in moderation?
    – Makoto
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 15:50
  • That's not quite what I said. I said I prefer flagging (which will remove poor questions without unhelpful-to-the-newbie downvotes), or at least giving the new user some time to improve the question (preferably after commenting/with assistance), before downvoting - because receiving lots of downvotes without active assistance is a terrible new user experience. Commented May 15, 2018 at 16:49
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    the preconception that down votes are unhelpful to newbies is flawed as well. they are helpful to newbies that see them and then think wow, I need to make sure I do not ask low quality questions like this one and they are the only approved form of feedback to the OP that carries no chance of being unwelcoming in the comments. Vote, Move On is how the site works now, you acknowledge this yourself, stop supporting the idea that infers malicious intent to someone clicking an arrow on a website, and start teaching the newbies what the arrows actually represent.
    – user177800
    Commented Aug 21, 2018 at 23:42
  • I'll assume that with the downvotes and teaching the newbie what they represent, you are taking the time to grapple with both the newbie's difficulty composing a good question, and their actual question/problem. In which case I say ABSOLUTELY! However (having been there) a bunch of downvotes when you felt you asked a decent question DOES feel unwelcoming, however aware a newbie might be as to the meaning of the completely welcoming -10 their question received seconds after being asked. The DVs may be helpful if "-10" is what they're looking for, but I bet few think "wow, I need to... Commented Sep 11, 2018 at 14:25

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