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In recent product announcements, I have noticed a trend that is disturbing to me. Stack Exchange employees are making claims and arguing with users without providing data to back up assumptions. This is leading to both users getting frustrated because it looks like they are being ignored and employees getting frustrated because the users aren't understanding their point of view.

I'm going to provide a few examples, but I want to make it clear that I am not calling people out. My goal is to point out the frustration I see building as a high rep user and provide a few suggestions on how all of us can resolve some of these issues. I know that some of the frustration I am seeing is also festering from other recent posts, but I want to focus on posts where the community can provide valuable feedback to improve Stack Overflow, not solve worldly issues.

Concern 1: Dismissiveness

There are posts throughout this topic of users sharing user scripts to do two things - change the top color and unsticky it. Regardless of the merits of these (and I admit that I am biased in what I think the outcome should be), the tone coming from employees isn't the greatest. A few examples:

can you please include the votes from all the people who do like the white on white (but because they are OK with it, didn't feel the need to pipe up)? Claiming you and the few hundred upvotes on different posts are representative of the community as a whole is disingenuous at best. - Oded

and

@StevenPenny the reason Pawel didn't respond regarding the color is because if we change the color, we would first need to run additional testing. The team's run multiple usability and A/B tests to ensure usability and effectiveness of the current version. Making it black would make it stand off from the rest of the content more, but a lot of users in this meta post don't want that. We also know that things that don't look like the rest of the site tend to get ignored by more people. Kurtis Beavers

Both of these come off as, frankly, insulting. The first is asking for data that even Stack Exchange doesn't have and the second attempts to explain away why something can't be done because of "testing". Personally, I'd be ok with that testing response, if we have been provided more information but as it standings the only hard numbers we have is that top bar clicks increased 143%.

Suggestion: It is implied that other metrics were measured and these influenced the decision to build this a certain way. Share some of this with us. Stack Exchange values transparancy. We've come to expect it. Don't shut it out of this process.

We've interviewed a lot of users who had no idea what the items in the topbar were or that we had navigation at the top right-hand side of the page because they were used to landing on the page and scrolling to the answer. By this time everything is off screen. Clicks weren't the only thing that we measured, but they were an important metric for us, especially for unregistered or low-reputation users. We also tracked searches, because we want searching to increase or not decrease since this will likely result in less duplicate questions asked. - Kurtis Beavers

Concern 2: Forgetting (or appearing to forget) about experienced users

This is round 3 of meta posts and certain messages have been stated by high rep users several times. Again, these are the color and sticky bars. However, that last comment raises an important point that I believe is the heart of this recent discontent: Stack Exchange is focusing on the low-reputation/unregistered/casual users at the expense of improving the product for existing and power users.

Without knowing more about the internal processes that are driving these decisions, I can't offer a decent suggestion other than "don't ignore us", but comments like this from high rep users and your moderators is frustrating to read over and over:

interesting! But I'm not a new user. To me the sticky bar is distracting and contains mostly irrelevant links for me. I never use the Jobs or Tags or Documentation links, and I'll happily use my Home button to go back to the top for the rest. When I am answering I look for the question to get details right, and notifications that distract me from answering are hindering at that point. Please separate the daily power user from the unregistered casual visitor! - Martijn Pieters

This type of concern is casually dismissed with a (paraphrased) "they don't know what they really want".

We've interviewed a lot of new and veteran users, but this is also something that's been asked for on meta and lot of users within this post like. Because some power users don't like something doesn't automatically mean it is a poor design for all power users and we don't care about their needs. Saying things like "tyranny of the casual user majority" may be one of the reasons some people outside this community perceive it as unfriendly to new users. - Kurtis Beavers

This concern is even more obvious when links that were used by experienced users to help new users are completely removed. The help button may not be used by new users (I'm sure there is a stat somewhere about how often it's used, but I can't find one) but it is used by experienced users to point the newer people to help. Comments like this to users trying to help don't make sense. The button was removed for those that can help, but those that don't use it have the button still in place.

i understand that and I'm really sory but please try to consider fact that majority of our users didn't use that help link in top bar. people just don't read help usually so for majority of users this link was simply useless. your effort trying to teach others (and linking to help) is priceless but we still need to consider needs of other users as well. that area in header is very "expensive" and we're trying to keep there only essential and most useful things. but i agree that we, as company, need to do better job at informing users about help. but link in header is not a solution... – Paweł

Suggestion: Consider your audience. These posts are made on meta, where your experienced and invested users lurk. These are the people that want Stack Overflow to succeed. The suggestions they are offering are to help you. Dismissing them or forgetting about them isn't helpful to either side.


Realizing that some of the animosity that exists right now is due to other events, I think these two concerns I've presented can be easily addressed. The community is here to help Stack Overflow grow. We want to work with the company and we want new and better things. We are engaging you on Meta because you brought the updates to us. Dismissing feedback that was requested is only strengthening a concern some community members have: Stack Overflow is starting to forget about its users. I am not saying that you need to listen to everything we say. But, Stack Exchange values transparency and many of us love seeing posts filled with data to back up or refute assumptions. Let's see more of that to argue points.

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    Can you please also address the tone of the post to which these are a response to? That OP started off in a very aggressive tone towards "the powers that be" - as if looking for a fight. Is it a surprise he put everyone's backs up?
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 14:34
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    There's a lot of emotion and context around everything presented here, and while it's there for folks to read (perhaps if they haven't), what remains is that Andy's points here stand well on their own detached from all the dust that's been kicked up over the past days. So even if you don't know or care to read the context, there's enough here that says something is wrong without it. I need to think about this for a little while, and then I'll get you a response from us.
    – user50049
    Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 14:42
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    I can't help but feel that Steve Penny's post should be left out of this analysis. If you look at the edit history you'll see that Steve appears to be going out of their way to antagonise employees. Any responses on that subject are now forever coloured by that experience.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 14:48
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    Although the "testing" argument with respect to the new top bar sounds rather persuasive at first blush, what is actually most frustrating about it is that it ignores the fact that, since the very inception of this new design, users have been extremely vocal and supportive of the background being darkened to increase the contrast. So it's not like no one knew about this in order to test it. They just decided not to test it, and are now using that as an excuse. Aside from that, Kurtis's claim that "a lot of users in this meta post don't want that" is demonstrably false, which is insulting.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 14:53
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    I have no horses in this specific race, but as a side note, none of the criticisms aired here are exactly new. I remember being mad at Jeff in 2009, and the entire team on several occasions later, for pretty much the same reasons (over different features and developments obviously). Part of it is probably down to the overall difficult-ness of building and developing a complex product with so much direct community feedback. (Doesn't necessarily mean the team is off the hook here, of course.)
    – Pekka
    Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 14:55
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    Err, what assumption am I making? You mean that they may have tested some contrasty version internally, and not in any of the three rounds of public tests? Yes, that's possible, but then what's the point in having these three rounds of public tests and soliciting feedback from the very beginning about this new feature? @martijn
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 14:58
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    @CodyGray: They just decided not to test it, and are now using that as an excuse. I find that rather a leap, to know that they made such a decision, explicitly.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 15:01
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    Since you did quote me on my 'sticky top bar' feedback, did you also see that the team has indicated they are considering the option to turn it off? See this comment by Pawel. At no point do I feel that my feedback is being dismissed out of hand.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 15:04
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    Someone has to make a decision about what to test. There's no such thing as an implicit decision when, from the very first proposal, people were loudly suggesting that this be done. The evidence is in front of us about what has and has not been tested. The Meta posts are all stacked up and can be easily referred to. So again, unless you're referring to some internal test whose results we cannot see, there is absolutely no leap that I'm making.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 15:06
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    @Kendra, we never want users to feel dismissed. FWIW, I don't want to speak for Pawel, but I think at least some of the tonal difference you're seeing may be a language issue. Pawel's English is great for a non-native speaker, but I can see places where the phrasing may come off as less collaborative than Tim or I might.
    – Jaydles Staff
    Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 15:37
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    @FélixGagnon-Grenier: I didn't look at your comments; I looked at your posts (questions/answers). The fact that you did not personally get answers to some of your comments, especially about a feature that a lot of people are commenting on, is not evidence that "lower rep users" are not considered as much as "higher rep users". It is not reasonable for SE people to answer every comment from every user personally. Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 18:20
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    I think I'm being portrayed unfairly here, so I've edited in my subsequent comment after the first one for more context. I said that we were planning additional tests — some will happen after the launch of the first version. The reason the team didn't immediately respond with a direct answer is because we have a call scheduled later this week to discuss the feedback as a whole.
    – Kurtis Beavers Staff
    Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 19:46
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    I want it to stay white! I didn't mention this at any point because it was already white. I also want the search bar in the middle, and the user card thingy and menus on the right. I didn't say that previously because it was already that way. The only thing I don't really like about all of this is that I believe the developer time would be better spent on improving other parts of the engine such as the review queues and such, but I love the improvements, so I'm fine with it.
    – user4639281
    Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 21:18
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    "Both of these come off as, frankly, insulting" Really? I don't see anything insulting in there at all. Honestly the only antagonistic behaviour I see anywhere here is this meta post itself. There's nothing to fox. Go get a beer, chill out, and write some code! Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 14:11
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    @KurtisBeavers - While I understand your frustration, I don't think it's appropriate to edit this and insert your response into the question. If Andy wants to supplement his question with that, I'll leave it to him to do so. You've been able to respond in the comments, and Tim has provided an extensive answer along these lines.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 16:42

6 Answers 6

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When people give something their best, and all of it, they tend to stretch pretty thin as what they've built comes under scrutiny and critique. This is because the best they've got creatively and emotionally is still completely invested in that thing they just built.

There's also a rather palpable wave of dissonance that hits you pretty strongly after you emerge from a tool shed full of people that feel that they've built the very best thing they possibly could have, too. But you folks build and ship software, you know this stuff.

To the comments that you've identified as examples in your post, as well as numerous others that were more or less similar, we agree that they weren't our best. For that, we apologize. No one ever really intends to come off as dismissive, condescending or belittling as they work to try to make a situation better; I don't think folks realized just how thinly they were stretched and how much that affected their ability to really shape what they were trying to say.

We will do better.

To your mention that other things that happened previously might have contributed here, I think that's part of it. The push that we felt had a level of intensity that we don't ordinarily see; I'm actually quite glad that you called this out. We can't ever let bringing the less-than-great out in each other become something that looks like normal. I've been a user since late 2008, I was elected to serve this community in 2011 and to be quite honest, yesterday scared me a little. I was taken back a bit by stuff I saw coming out of us, and stuff coming out of folks that we're ordinarily quite friendly with.

Let's please take a hard look at all this tension, and decide if it's something that we want to keep.

Yeah, I don't want to keep it either. Here are things we're going to do in order to help that along.

We have to do a better job of communicating and explaining our goals.

This means taking time to explain constraints and decisions more clearly so that information can help you better understand our position on something, and help us get more valuable feedback from you.

We can't always just throw data together from our testing system in a manner that would be close to rational for other people to consume, but we can take time to explain tests better.

And when we didn't do something that you feel we probably should have done, it's important to give our rationale in a manner that's not dismissive. And sometimes that might mean saying scary for-profit words like "More exposure to [thing] is a big priority for us right now, so we really can't move it". We can't always be specific, but vaguely non-dismissive is much better than coming off as rude.

"Let me explain this to you ..." has to be meant literally.

Because it's sometimes too easy to say that when what you really mean is let me tell you why you're wrong. That line can sometimes be very thin, and very easy to cross, so we all need to make sure to watch for it.

If we say something and pick up that you didn't understand us, our next job is to help you understand us, not just try harder to find ways to get you to agree with it.

Tagging out

It's hard to know in advance of just not knowing what you're even trying to accomplish that you've lost sight of whatever it was you were trying to do. This is particularly true in conversations where the sense of urgency to respond quickly is quite elevated, and both parties grow increasingly emotional.

We'll do a better job of just outright saying "I think I lost total track of what we're trying to achieve here, can you please tell me in a sentence or two what you want me to take back to the team?" Sometimes that can be just enough pause to keep things from getting too hot.

So ...

We haven't lost touch, we honestly felt that the reception to this would mostly follow suit with the rest of the tests and interviews we completed, coupled with the support we saw for this early on (granted, before we had more concrete things for you to poke at).

And, well, looking completely bewildered and dumbfounded kinda looks like losing touch, but it's a state that's much easier to recover from (we're pretty much there now).

Thank you for bringing this up in the manner that you did. If I can add to or clarify any part of this, I'm happy to do it.

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    My take on this: This is a really well-worded acknowledgement of any and all "mistakes" (for want of a much better word) on the team's part yesterday. As I stated in my answer, I certainly don't think this is entirely on the team. I really hope that a lot of other users see it that way and don't blame the team for all of this- Communication is a two-way street. If one side has heavy traffic or an accident, it can make things difficult for both sides. I think yesterday had several examples of accidents in both lanes...
    – Kendra
    Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 17:07
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    I just want to say that regardless of how I feel about the new bar (please don't make it sticky), this is a great post
    – Lamak
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 13:45
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    Don't forget to point out the elephant in the room. The loudest voice of meta is the obnoxious voice of people who don't have concern for how snarky and downright rude their comments are. The sentiment is "as long as I have a point to make, I care not how it comes across." So sure, as leaders of the community you have a responsibility to treat people with respect regardless of if they deserve it. But, as a human, it only makes sense that sometimes your professional manners wear down and you return in kind. Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 14:11
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    It's always seemed to me that StackOverflow tends (in many but certainly not all cases) to work really really hard on some amazing new feature and then stun us all when it's complete. Which sometimes works amazing when you get it on the nose, but will also backfire if it doesn't. No one wants to be told they worked really hard on something... that turned out not to be a good idea. How can we improve communication BEFORE something is launched so it can feel collaborative the whole way through, before people get stretched thin?
    – durron597
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 20:16
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    One of the issues exacerbating this - is some newer staff are not used to participating on the site and may cross the boundaries of site use (example editing the question here), not out of malice, but not understanding the culture. We, the community can be reactive, but it's time to address the issues of UI/UX simplicity - flagging options. It should be apparent without opening the help what action to take. And the close queue. Whether it's the ability to bump on topic questions out of it with one leave open by a user who is not the OP. Things to consider.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 31, 2017 at 1:51
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Tim has written an excellent answer to this - go read it, please. We can do better here, and we're gonna try.

But something sticks in my craw reading this post: this is mostly about design. In fact, most of your quotes are from our design team. I feel that's unfair.

...I've said many more dismissive and uncaring things than the designers ever have. Where's the love, Andy??!

But more importantly... No one really wants this site to be designed based on how voting on meta plays out. For starters, we've all been on the other side of "design by committee" - it is hell. But more importantly, the results are always terrible. Design-by-vote kills any hope of consistency, takes focus away from hard problems and pours resources down the multicolor bikeshed drain - and the bikeshed didn't even need a drain.

You're all programmers, you don't need me to tell you any of this, you've lived it. And... It's actually kinda nice being on the other side for once, ain't it?

But come on. You know it doesn't work. And you know that caring doesn't fix anything either; as nice as it is to have a sympathetic ear, what matters is what gets done. When you sit down to triage bug reports, you don't go looking for the one that has the most votes - you look for the one that has the biggest impact... And ideally, has enough information for you to understand and reproduce the problem.

Right now, there are under a thousand people who can even see the designs that've caused so much consternation here. In a few days, there'll be many thousands looking at them. So the design team is scrambling to identify and fix the most critical bugs as fast as they can, before all hell breaks loose. Again, tell me that doesn't sound familiar...

But the design sucks! There's barely any green at all!

Look, if you want to have an impact on the design here, then focus on the concrete details of how it is causing problems. There's no guarantee that anything will get fixed, or that it'll get fixed in the way you want... But if you make it easy to triage, you greatly increase the chance that it will be fixed. Remember, every minute the designers are here on meta, chewing their fingernails trying to figure out how to write a diplomatic response is a minute they're not actually fixing something.

This is a great bug report, because it identifies exactly where the original behavior caused problems and made it easy to identify how others would be affected by it. The only comments a designer had to leave there were "we're gonna fix this" and "it's fixed". Also, it has lots of free-hand red arrows. Don't you wish your users made bug reports like that? So be the change you want to see in your own disgruntled userbase.

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    Right now, there are under a thousand people who can even see the designs, so about 250 votes (only for Steve's post, not counting the others) for a design change are even more percent than I'd have expected. However, I agree with you, and the essence of all of this is, you can never fully satisfy everybody in a big group of people. I also don't want design by group decission... But the design team could at least make it very easy for users to implement their own stylesheets, so everybody can have the little tweaks they like. That's one aspect of Steve's post nobody reacted to.
    – baao
    Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 21:49
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    @baao The question becomes, however, how many of those votes were by users who could see the design? How many were users who actually just agreed without having opted in and truly tested the top bar? We can't judge that, so taking that full 250 and assuming it's all from people testing may be overestimating it. (Or it could be 100% correct, who knows?) ((I agree with the rest of your comment, just pointing out this small detail.))
    – Kendra
    Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 21:51
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    Well, that's an area where a specific, objective report would be beneficial then, @baao. I personally use a bunch of userscripts on SO, and I've never had a problem tweaking things in the past - ain't like this is a Angular SPA with 50 levels of randomly-ID'd divs, the designers and devs here all take pride in clean markup with just the right amount of nested tables. So if you come across something awkward, post it up.
    – Shog9
    Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 22:03
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    I'm going to go with the more mysterious and outlandish: "of the 250 users who upvoted that answer, none of them had monitors", which is just as easy to prove.
    – user4639281
    Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 22:09
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    "I've said many more dismissive and uncaring things than the designers ever have" - This, and something Jon Ericson mentioned in chat earlier, had me thinking about my post and how I presented it. The community sees the forward facing SE employees (CMs, PMs, support staff) much more often. With that, we are most accustomed to seeing data backing up those posts. Even when the community disagrees with those, you've presented the data to justify why the decision was made. The lack of data and familiarity with the designers and coders makes it harder to understand the tone of others.
    – Andy Mod
    Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 22:56
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    It's tricky, @Andy. As you note, data alone isn't gonna make anyone agree with something they don't like; at worst, it's even a distraction. Something I had to learn the hard way was that you can't start with data; you gotta tell a good story for anything you want to do, use data to determine if it was a good idea, and even if your story is good, even if the data backs that up, a sizable minority of people are gonna hate your guts for doing it. So eventually, the time for talking has to end, or nothing ever gets done.
    – Shog9
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 0:13
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    We expect you to be dismissive, Shog. If you weren't, you wouldn't be doing your job! But seriously, it's not at all surprising to me that the issues are with the design team. The design is what's in-your-face, it's what you have to see and deal with every time you use the site. If you disagree with one of the community team members or a moderator about a moderation decision or whatever, you can just move on and do something else on the site. It doesn't matter in the long run. OTOH, if you're frustrated & annoyed by the way the site looks & feels, you aren't going to want to spend time here.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 10:52
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    Regarding the number of votes, I would imagine that the users who are "upset" or don't like something are going to be the ones coming to raise their voices more than those who are OK with it. Most of the answers on the new nav are bug reports or "I don't like X".
    – DavidG
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 14:07
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    I want to echo @Shog9's point that the markup is amenable to user modification, which is a legitimately collaborative posture. I haven't seen the site without an extra layer of CSS from userstyles for years now. Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 23:40
  • Seriously though, there's not enough green. The new achievements tab isn't nearly obvious enough when you get something :) Like, I didn't notice it even was green for a while. Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 1:11
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TLDR:
I agree there's an issue here, though I'm not sure it's entirely on the team or even remotely intended. Some of this feels like users provoking the team, and some of it feels like poor word choice or other language related issues. While there's definitely some things here that need fixed, there are also some things that I think we all should try to keep an open mind about.


As a user who has seen a lot of the frustration you've mentioned, let me give my two cents, and a couple suggestions of my own.

This isn't entirely on the team.

While I agree that this has, at least in my perception, become something of an issue lately, I also feel this isn't entirely on the team.

Sometimes, users just bring up their concerns in an aggressive manner. While it may be argued that this is a result of the user feeling like they're not being listened to, the fact that the user comes off as antagonizing and aggressive can really make the situation worse.

For example, the post the first two comments you use to illustrate the point feels very strongly worded towards the employees. Yes, that seems to be a result of the user feeling they're being ignored. Yes, the employees still could have responded better. However, I feel that in this situation, fault lays on both the user and the employees who could have responded better. When tension is high, it's very easy to fall into these situations.

While I have no immediate examples, nor the time to look for them, I have seen this in other recent situations: Users getting more aggressive or antagonistic, which in turn starts the team toward getting more riled up. In response, the user or more users get more heated, and things start to escalate from there. This kind of tension can make it very hard to feel like you're being appreciated or that your point is being listened to. It's a vicious cycle, but not one that is solely the fault of the employees.

Suggestion: We as users need to strive not to start off with accusing the team of not listening. Even if we have evidence they may not be listening, we need to try to assume the best, or try to word our request in such a way that it invites open discussion. Aggressive or antagonistic language is only going to raise the tension and make a good discussion harder.

Some of this seems to be an issue with the choice of wording or the result of a language difference.

@StevenPenny the reason Pawel didn't respond regarding the color is because if we change the color, we would first need to run additional testing. The team's run multiple usability and A/B tests to ensure usability and effectiveness of the current version. Making it black would make it stand off from the rest of the content more, but a lot of users in this meta post don't want that. We also know that things that don't look like the rest of the site tend to get ignored by more people.

This comment feels to me like an attempt to explain the team's decision about the color, but it also feels like it just misses the mark. I can certainly see where one would find this comment to be dismissive or insulting, though I don't find it to be that way myself. I think if the comment had been worded slightly differently, or if Kurtis had more room for a better explanation, this comment wouldn't be in the list of examples.

It's also worth noting that Kurtis' next comment on that answer helps point to the fact the team isn't trying to be dismissive, and that the changes requested might well be made later:

Because we don't answer immediately does not mean we're not listening. It's possible we launch with white and continue to test iterations. Kurtis Beavers

This extra comment really does, in my mind, help show that the team is listening, and either may be wording things in such a way that people are misinterpreting them, or (as I believe and Tim's answer seems to indicate) the team was overwhelmed and trying to respond to everything, leading to responses given with high tension that are long and may leave out important information. Such information could include, as in this example, that the team is open to testing a different color after the first release. The addition of this comment, which immediately follows the previous one, makes the first comment feel a lot more useful to me.

Now, consider this example:

i understand that and I'm really sory but please try to consider fact that majority of our users didn't use that help link in top bar. people just don't read help usually so for majority of users this link was simply useless. your effort trying to teach others (and linking to help) is priceless but we still need to consider needs of other users as well. that area in header is very "expensive" and we're trying to keep there only essential and most useful things. but i agree that we, as company, need to do better job at informing users about help. but link in header is not a solution...

As the user this was directed at originally, it did feel dismissive. However, it didn't upset me or make me angry, it just felt... Off. In contrast, Tim's comment following this one felt a lot better: It offered an alternative that fit the team's goals and hopefully would fit the case I described.

However, I feel like this example is more of a language based thing. It feels like Pawal was trying to explain the team's reasoning rather than dismiss my use case. It may have been that Pawal did not at that moment have an alternative to offer. Rereading it the next day, it still feels dismissive, but I can also see how Pawal was trying to explain why the team was catering to the majority in this instance. If the majority of the users who don't need the help center (aka "experienced" or "high-rep" users) don't ever use it, then that space is really better used other ways, and this comment was attempting to explain that this was the reasoning.

And let's keep in mind that users can cause the same thing. Consider this exchange on this question:

As the person Pawal's "help link" comment was directed at, I do want to say that it felt incredibly dismissive and like my concerns, as a frequent Meta goer and someone who honestly tries to help new users who come to Meta with questions, just didn't matter. Tim's response on the same post, offering an alternative that did fit what the team wanted to do while still giving me something more usable felt a lot better and pretty quickly made me feel more like my opinion wasn't just being dismissed because "that's how SO wants it." Comments like Tim's feel much more inviting and open. – Kendra

@Kendra, we never want users to feel dismissed. FWIW, I don't want to speak for Pawel, but I think at least some of the tonal difference you're seeing may be a language issue. Pawel's English is great for a non-native speaker, but I can see places where the phrasing may come off as less collaborative than Tim or I might. – Jaydles♦

I had hoped, in my comment, to word it in such a way to make clear that I don't blame Pawal for the comment I mentioned, and to make clear that I wasn't angry or upset. However, there just was not nearly enough space in the comment to make that clear, and I decided rather than edit/delete the comment, I would expand it into this answer.

Suggestion: Remember that everyone is human, and no one is perfect. Intentions can be misconstrued, poor word choice can be used, and well-intended comments can be misread and misinterpreted. If you see a comment that looks or feels off, from anyone, consider (politely!) pointing out to the author how it can come across. Hopefully, they can either clarify or delete/edit/whatever the statement to try to keep things calm and on track.

Some of these really do just feel like writing off what we say.

We've interviewed a lot of new and veteran users, but this is also something that's been asked for on meta and lot of users within this post like. Because some power users don't like something doesn't automatically mean it is a poor design for all power users and we don't care about their needs. Saying things like "tyranny of the casual user majority" may be one of the reasons some people outside this community perceive it as unfriendly to new users.

This comment really does just feel like a dismissive write off of what's been said, at least out of context. It feels like a weak justification of why something is right, regardless of what the user involved says.

This comment could be improved, using a suggestion from the question: Back it up with data. How many of these users were interviewed? What percent agreed with what the employee said? What percent agreed with what the user said?

This could raise additional questions or concerns: Was the sample size even large enough? Was the "interview" organized well? How/when was this interview conducted? How were users chosen for this interview? What defined the "new users" and the "veteran users" in this interview? Can the annonymized results of these interviews be published for the world to see, or was this done in such a way that the results are too tied to their respondents?

In the end, this is one of those comments that just really needs more backup. Otherwise, it will always feel like a "he said, she said" kind of remark.

I have no suggestions for this case, aside from what's already been stated in the question.

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    Thank you Kendra. I agree that I could have worded my response slightly different.
    – Kurtis Beavers Staff
    Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 20:56
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    @KurtisBeavers We all have those overwhelming days where we just don't word something optimally and it blows up in our face. I usually see pretty polite and explanatory stuff coming from you, so I'm chalking it up to the overwhelming amount and force of feedback yesterday, personally. You keep doing what you do, man. Don't let one bad day/comment get you down. :)
    – Kendra
    Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 20:59
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    Thanks Kendra, I appreciate the understanding, and the feedback.
    – Kurtis Beavers Staff
    Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 22:11
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    Well said. We can definitely all work on doing better here, and this type of two-sided breakdown goes a long way toward helping us remember our own part of improving these interactions wherever we can.
    – Jaydles Staff
    Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 22:17
  • +1 summed up my thoughts on the matter Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 14:11
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    As the addressee of one of the called-out comments, I didn't find the tone out of line with the prevailing winds of the conversation. The thing I said was a sarcastic aside, and I probably didn't need to say it, and maybe the response could have been worded better, but I think they were both understandable and excusably human.
    – jscs
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 14:39
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    @KurtisBeavers: I apologize for my sarcastic remark that prompted your reply that's quoted in the question. It wasn't meant personally or as an attack, but it probably read that way, and I should have expressed myself more constructively.
    – jscs
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 14:40
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    @JoshCaswell the worst thing about communicating on the internet isn't the miscommunications that happen from drinking the human experience from the tiniest of straws, it's the fact that we can't all grab a pint together afterwards.
    – Kurtis Beavers Staff
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 14:43
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While I don't believe that it's ever how the responses are intended to sound, this is how I feel reading some feedback on posts. It's not limited to the post that is the focus of the op.

One trend that stands out to me is the expectation that users will provide rigorous statistics to back up every claim they make. Often it isn't possible to make such an analysis because data hasn't been provided or is difficult to get, even when it's reasonable to assume that it exists somewhere. Responses from employees often lack statistics too, but can convey a tone of "if you don't have any numbers then we'll just assume our version is right".

The response to feedback is that tests show that the change is good. But how are users supposed to run competing tests? There's no way to provide competing statistics, so such a response feels dismissive even if it wasn't intended that way.

A more constructive response would be to add details explaining how a decision was made. The sooner this response can be posted, the less chance it has to get buried in a long, frustrating comment chain. For example, an employee eventually responded to a request for a static top bar with:

majority (like seriously a lot) of our traffic comes from google (both anonymous and loggedin). they very often land in the middle of the page on specific answer (or just quickly scroll down without paying attention to anything we have on top, very often omitting even question itself). so people simply ignore Stack Overflow as a website and everything we offer them, it's more like a place with answers. we're trying to do what's best for users, but we also need something from users because it's the only way this ecosystem may exist. i hope that answer makes sense.

This response is better because it provides insight into the decision, rather than making it feel arbitrary. It points out something that normal users are probably not thinking about. Now they can help brainstorm further solutions that keep this in mind rather than just saying they don't like the change.

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    Adding a second comment to the one I just made because, well, this entire post (thread, whatever) is about improving communication. I didn't care to read through yesterday's lengthy dialog. I have better things to do. More, I hate sticky headers! But - that's just my opinion, and until I read the above quote (not attributed, I had to find it in the original thread) I never understood the viewpoint of why someone would ever want a sticky header. This is a truly reasonable response! One I understand and (damn!) agree with. Too bad it was inserted pretty deep in the comments.
    – user7014451
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 0:02
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I think that there is a problem here that isn't actually solvable, unfortunately; there is a fundamentally paradox.

People (us) want developers to interact with us and want them to listen to us and consider our thoughts, while not appearing condescending and not dismissing us

but

The only way for developers to both do their jobs and not get involved in arguments with users is for them to stop talking to us.


Stack Exchange employs some amazing people. Amazing. And what that means is they know what the heck they're doing. They know how to design a good website. They know what looks good and what doesn't, and what is usable and what isn't. And, moreover, they know how to incorporate feedback from a variety of sources and produce a site that best fits that feedback.

Stack Exchange users, on the other hand, are largely self-selected for a couple of things. We're mostly type-A, smart, and love giving feedback to people (a.k.a. telling other people how to do things). That's why we're on this site, after all, instead of somewhere else.

What does that mean? That means that we really like to tell the developers what we think is best. And when they tell us "Thanks, but we've already thought about this and tested it in a few ways, and we think this is a good way to do it," what do we do? We push back some, and then push back some more. And because they can never come up with a solution that is ideal for everyone - and even when they do come up with that ideal solution for you, you often don't know it right away - this pushing never stops, even if they do whatever it is the current loudest voice is asking.

Anybody surprised that it ends up with the developers saying some things that they probably shouldn't, or that they should say but get taken out of context? Not me. I'm a human being, and even though I always try to be nice, I make mistakes just like anyone else - and so do our developers (who, after all, are selected for being good developers, not for being perfect at customer service, though I think they do pretty well on balance).

You tell someone whose profession it is to design good websites that they don't know what they're doing, and whine enough that nobody listens to you (when of course what you mean is not "nobody listens to me", but "you didn't do what I told you you should do"), and of course they get a bit snippy after a while. I would.

So - I think the only thing that's going to come out of this, and I think it's the right thing, unfortunately, is that SE developers will perhaps spend a bit less time talking to us and interacting in comment threads. We'll still have them, and we'll still talk amongst ourselves about how sad it is that nobody listens to us.

And then we'll go back to using Stack Exchange, and in a couple of years the next time they change something, perhaps change the colors to add a bit more contrast, we'll have another few months of complaints.


And as a side note: I hope they keep doing things the way they do in terms of making decisions about design the right way. I don't like everything about the new site design, but I do know that I am not a site designer, and I know jack about what actually works. And - more importantly - I do not want to have the site designed by the loudest voices.

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    The employees have way more inputs here to consider than the users making requests. They don't have the luxury of simply saying "We should do this because I like this and think it's a good idea". People should really be more mindful of this... in how many companies/communities do users have this much say in/control over to begin with?
    – aw04
    Commented Feb 9, 2017 at 13:59
0

I've just sort of accepted that the things that would make my life easier and better, both as a regular user and a moderator (on Workplace) are lower priority than the things that Stack Exchange wants to pursue.

We also have different interests. I want a website that easily enables me to see, answer, and interact with high quality content.

Stack Exchange needs to make money.

I find nearly no value in documentation or careers even though SE dumps a lot of time into it, both community manager and development. The navigation changes arguably are making SE harder to use for me.

There are many fairly straightforward feature requests which would make things better for me but are things that SE chooses other things to spend their time/development efforts towards building.

My similar frustrations to how SE interacts with me as a regular user and moderator become much smaller when I realized the fundamental reason is they don't care about the same things I do.

shrug

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    eh, that argument is thrown around a lot... "SE just wants to make money..." I disagree. I mean, sure, they have to make money to be able to pay their employees what they're worth, but that completely ignores the community building they do which greatly helps the programming community. Now we have a place that we can not only find the answers to the problems we have, but we can also use it to advance our careers without having to deal with the mess that is <insert other job search tool that isn't tailored to programmers>.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 19:09
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    @KevinB what percentage do you think of SE employee time is directly spent on the community building part of their business? Whether interaction with communities or developing features requested by community members?
    – enderland
    Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 19:17
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    That depends on the employee's job title. But even so that's not something i'll speculate on.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 19:18
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    @KevinB Community building is a means to an end. All companies, public or private, have shareholders (owners), and customers. If you put Stack Exchange into the proper context where Joel is the owner, we users are the product, and advertisers are the customers, the situation and SE's responses to issues should make a lot more sense. Just accept it for what it is.
    – user439793
    Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 19:42
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    I don't think it's true to assume that SE employees are doing what they do to just make money. We certainly care about that, and some of our decisions have to focus on those things. But everyone I know works here because they believe in the mission of helping the world's developers learn from each other and share knowledge.
    – Kurtis Beavers Staff
    Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 20:51

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