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I've often seen people proclaim "the answer had 40 upvotes, therefore 40 people found it useful". An example of this can be seen in this comment.

I want to contend that this isn't the case.

I personally can recall occasionally slipping into up voting posts that I didn't consider helpful to:

  • Prevent them from being deleted when the user was likely to delete their account to make it non-negative
  • Because I found it on the "Hot Network Questions" and found it interesting (I am not going to use a squat toilet, nor will I find instructions for the use a regular of one intended for someone familiar with squat toilets useful... interesting, yes.)
  • To help make a question hot
  • Badge hunting the Sportsman badge (Up voted 100 answers on questions where an answer of yours has a positive score) - no, I didn't find them useful, I thought my answer was better... but BADGE!
  • To have an up voted answer in a question I wanted as a dup target (related)
  • To push someone to a perfect reputation
  • To help sort the answers in a question by the quality of the question (there are 5 answers at 0 score? This one is better than those)
  • Because I hit the question via google and while one answer fixed it, the others looked good too.

Please note that above are all examples across all SE sites of some of my voting habits. They are in the minority of my voting habits (especially on Stack Overflow) but rather serve as examples of how people can vote for things that are not as upvote tooltip suggests: "This answer is useful".

I've also seen the pseudo-default of the first post review queue be "up vote".

There are times that I wonder... just glancing around some search queries I've got... (and yes, meta effect and all -- and no I haven't voted on any of these answers):

Those are just from a simple search... I can get my data.se on for some other flawed gems of utility. Other poking can find things such as:

On a question
On an answer
On another answer

These are not "some number of people found this helpful". The culture of voting is not "people found it useful" and trying to suggest policy decisions based on upvotes alone as an indication of usefulness is flawed. It may be all you have as a metric, just like your boss only has SLOC as a metric for how much work you do - but it is necessary to take into account what that metric is actually measuring, and there is an awful lot of noise mixed in with that signal.

Is an up vote an indication that something was useful? Or should we dispense with this meme that all upvotes are because the original was helpful?

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    I certainly upvote answers which were not useful for me, because they are useful in the context of the question. On the other hand, visitors often have neither an account, nor the laughably little reputation required for upvoting. Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 3:00
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    I personally have never upvoted for any of the reasons you've bulleted, and if you're doing so you should stop. You've just indicated that at least a large percentage of the votes you've cast here actually are detrimental to the site, and we don't need those sorts of votes (or users) here. We should keep the meme, and start suspending or banning users who are caught (or blatantly admit) to voting for wrong reasons. Maybe you've been wasting time at this site, because you clearly don't support it's intended use.
    – Ken White
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 3:03
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    @KenWhite you have never voted on an interesting answer you clicked on from the hot questions? Actually, glancing at your network profile, that may be the case. That said, that kind of is the point of hot questions as I understand it. I would also point out that my votes are... well, you look at my vote ratio on SO and P.SE and consider how often the "large percentage of votes" are detrimental.
    – user289086
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 3:06
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    I've voted on quality questions (and answers) where I find them, without regard to whether they are from hot questions, or to earn a badge, or to artificially inflate someone's reputation, or any other reason than the quality of the post I'm voting on and my assessment of it's future value here. You seem to think it's a game you play; I think of it as a place where we can collect info that helps people, and I tend to cast my votes with that in mind. Toying with your votes for whatever reason has no benefit to the overall quality or goals here. They have lots of meaningless games elsewhere.
    – Ken White
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 3:10
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    @KenWhite once again, I'd strongly suggest that you look at my voting tendencies. I don't have the sportsman badge here. Nor have I found too many interesting SO hot questions. The voting for hot questions was on a beta site trying to get some exposure (I up voted all the answers to my question). Or that you feel that 0.003% of a person's rep is important for amusement value. Or you haven't clicked in the hot questions, or worked around the dup restrictions? or vote on the quality of answers I personally didn't use?
    – user289086
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 3:35
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    I am much in favour of uprooting some posts... (simple typo early on!)
    – Nick Cox
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 14:49
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    @Will then say "we are reluctant to delete this because it will cause the loss of 400 reputation points for the OP" (which is wrong -- I will point out that posts with sufficient age and votes do not incur reputation loss - see the point beginning with "Deleting and undeleting posts may affect reputation as well" in How does “Reputation” work? - older than 60 days and +3 will not cause reputation loss when deleted) rather than trying to say it is useful.
    – user289086
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 15:01
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    ... There is more about the permanency of reputation on up voted posts at Reputation and Historical Archives from '12 (its been this way for 3 years): "First, if you’ve contributed something worthwhile to the site, you should keep the reputation for that even if it eventually gets deleted. “Worthwhile” here is defined as, •A score of 3 or greater •Visible on the site for at least 60 days"
    – user289086
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 15:05
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    So what's the point of this question? Yes, some people vote based on factors other than the quality of the post, so a post's score is only a rough approximation of a posts quality, and not a particularly accurate representation of it. There are other factors that cause it to be less accurate, beyond just people voting for reasons other than post quality. This shouldn't be news to anyone. There are other factors that make score less accurate than this effect, such as people not understanding posts (even if they intended to vote on the quality) or the fact that score is tied to views.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 15:09
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    @Servy I'm trying to ascertain if there is rational behind saying "because this has 40 up votes 40 people found it useful" or if such a statement is a misrepresentation of what votes mean and the voting habits of the community at large (and even the stated intent of votes in context of hot questions). The use of the 'people found it useful' as a reason not to delete poor quality material prevents the curation of popular but useless, or duplicate material and appears to be founded on faulty premises. I really hope that people who hold this belief post an answer and point out where I am wrong.
    – user289086
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 15:13
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    @JonH He was speaking hypothetically, saying that people give too much credence to the score of a post given the existence of people that vote using the metrics described. He's not saying that it's good that people vote like that, rather that it's harmful to not acknowledge that some people do do it.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 15:16
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    @JonH again, please look at my voting history on Stack Overflow and consider how often that has happened. On SO, I have once upvoted a post so that I could flag another post as a duplicate of it, and several times voted on other answers that are more correct and better written to help sort the quality of the answers in a post that I didn't personally find useful.
    – user289086
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 15:17
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    I think there is an attempt on generating information out of nothing. There is no way to generate the motivation behind upvotes and to say "they actually meant this or that by upvoting". It's about as obvious as saying "All those who did not vote actually voted party XY" in a public election. It assumes a distribution of opinions in a group not measured. If we really wanted to know why people upvote a small selection of "reasons" to choose from could clarify.
    – BitTickler
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 15:17
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    @MichaelT You phrased the question poorly. You didn't make it sufficiently clear that you were speaking hypothetically, and gave the impression that you actually vote using the metrics you described, rather than simply saying that there exist other people that do.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 15:18
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    @user2225104 Anonymous feedback from low rep users does provide exactly that. Its a bit hard to get at (it used to be in the 10k tools but was too expensive on Stack Overflow with giant pivot tables). You can still poke at it via Data.SE: data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/220020/… data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/209365/… data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/209364/…
    – user289086
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 15:19

3 Answers 3

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An upvote doesn't mean "this personally helped me in my day", it means "this adds knowledge to the site, which we as a community deem helpful"

The fact that you have cast votes that don't follow that concept annoys me.

But, voting is subjective, and there's no guarantee that any individual sees voting in the same way that I do, and I absolutely support your right to vote as you see fit. If you do so, please bear in mind that a core element of this site is measuring the quality of things, and all we've really got to go by there is the vote record, so don't be surprised when it's then used as a measure of quality.

If you vote for something, two things result from that: (a) the post is now harder to remove, thus you've done what you can to ensure it will remain and (b) you've raised its visibility to other users, thus you've implicitly deemed it should be put it in front of others first. People generally understand this about their votes. It's hard not to read that as an endorsement of some kind.

It doesn't really matter that some votes are cast against this concept. I think it's reasonable to assume that most votes agree with it, and we're probably within the margin of error on that.

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    I'd point you to the second bulleted answer (now deleted) in the question where a joke answer was at +7/-1. There are many more of these out there when one starts digging (even the infamous html regex one - note also the scores of all the other answers) where vote appears to more reflect the popularity of the answer rather than its utility and thus usefulness. When digging around from a bit ago, there were a vast number of answers that were just links to xkcd that were highly upvoted (most of these have been cleaned up and removed).
    – user289086
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 16:55
  • "vast" and "many" are highly relative terms, here... are you suggesting such jokes represent a significant percentage of the overall content (pre-removal)? Also, does it really matter? These are legitimately times when votes don't represent true quality... but the posts are obviously jokes, and so understanding of that content is not hindered. The fact remains that in the general case, votes are our most direct way to get at how the community judges quality.
    – Jason
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 17:24
  • For that matter, I'm relatively certain I've cast a few "popularity" votes myself. It's not like I have any particular issue with that per se, but by suggesting that we cannot correlate votes with quality you imply that such voting makes up enough of the voting activity to make voting as a whole unreliable. I don't believe that, but even if it's true it's still all we got.
    – Jason
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 17:28
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    The issue I have had is that mods have been reluctant to delete duplicate answer material (first was in '09, then there's a +20 post that is duplicate of that in '11) because the +20 represents "it was useful" even though it is completely duplicate of another answer. Then it is raised that "it is useful" represents a "I don't want delete a +20 because it will cost the person 200 rep" which is incorrect (that's not how rep works). That said, I believe that a significant portion of votes on answers on Q's posted by low rep users are from the users and not related to utility but rather courtesy.
    – user289086
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 18:11
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The real answer (in my estimation at least) is probably something proportionate to the upvotes. This happens largely because of how many people can and do vote and how they vote.

First there are those who don't vote. People that end up here from google, those with low rep, etc. just can not vote on the post, plain and simple. Could they have found it useful? Sure. Did they add a vote to affirm that to the rest of us? Nope.

This same train of thought also works for those who can vote but just don't bother to. On top of that, maybe an answer was helpful in completing a full solution, but they never came back and voted. Either way, we will never know how "helpful" it was. At least it wasn't helpful enough to prompt clicking the up arrow.

Also, as has somewhat become a mantra in answering the "Why was my/this post downvoted?" questions on meta, the tooltips are guidelines that we want people to follow, but ultimately, your votes are yours to do with as you please. Will some people upvote for some of the reasons you described? Sure. Will some people downvote for reasons equally as "special"? Yup.

Because of all these factors, we will never be able to perfectly nail how many people an answer helped. We just get a relative approximation.

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I've upvoted when someone has taken the time to answer my question in a method they find useful. If it works but is not exactly the answer, I'll still give them an upvote. I usually only do this for my questions though.

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    So you're just trying to troll any future readers of the question into thinking that this incorrect answer is in fact correct? That's pretty cruel. And that's not even mentioning the fact that the author now thinks that their own incorrect answer is in fact correct, they'll continue thinking that the invalid answer they gave was valid, rather than having the opportunity to learn from their mistake.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 15:54
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    @Servy cruel or not, it is a fairly common thing done by low rep users on a site to upvote all the answers to their questions that address it. Upvotes cost nothing and when you value your own reputation more, one is more likely to spread the upvotes around to others who may also value the increase in reputation.
    – user289086
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 15:59
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    @Servy Does upvoting imply a correct answer? Hovering over the button says "This answer is useful" not "This answer is correct"
    – jimSampica
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 15:59
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    @MichaelT I didn't say nobody does it. I said it was harmful.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 16:00
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    @Servy no matter if you like it or not (I for one don't like it), it is a simple fact of life that inexperienced askers tend to drop sympathy upvotes just for an attempt to help, no matter how poor. This is especially prominent at smaller sites where lots of such askers arrive from SO "armed" by rep bonus allowing them to upvote. Not to mention that formally, upvote tooltip can be formally interpreted as "useful" by asker because any answer bumps the question and brings more eyeballs
    – gnat
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 16:00
  • @Shoe So whenever you find a question you hope to find incorrect answers that won't actually help you solve your problem you consider them to be useful?
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 16:01
  • @gnat I'm well aware of that. That doesn't mean that I can't inform said user that they're being actively destructive when I notice it (or when they admit to it, as is the case here).
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 16:02
  • @Servy one can argue that from asker's perspective, any answer can be considered useful, see prior comment
    – gnat
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 16:04
  • @Servy yes it is, but its a harm that is hard to quantify when one is less familiar with the site as a whole. Looking at the site as a whole rather than as a bunch of individuals takes some time and familiarity with it. I suspect that everyone when they go back to the oldest upvotes they cast they will find that they upvote nearly everything in a question. To help people move away from this mentality (and jabs, I applaud your forthcoming with this), we need to be better at showing how votes affect the site as a whole and as a resource for others.
    – user289086
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 16:04
  • @gnat The answerer here is saying that he's upvoting an answer that he feels isn't useful just because he wants to encourage the user for having posted an answer. The fact that he is admitting to upvoting an answer that he freely acknowledges wasn't useful to him is the problem, and not that he found the answer useful even if other's didn't.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 16:06
  • @Servy that's not what I read here: "when someone has taken the time to answer my question in a method they find useful. If it works but is not exactly the answer, I'll still give them an upvote"
    – gnat
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 16:07
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    @gnat Again, you seem to have just seen the word "useful" in the answer and thus take it to mean that he found the answer useful. He said no such thing. He says he upvotes all answers to questions he's asked regardless of how useful he thinks they are. That's very much contrary to the voting tooltips as it involves upvoting answers that one doesn't think are useful.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 16:14
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    I agree with Servy on that point. The answer should be useful to the asker, not they (the answerer) find useful. The latter is trivially detrimental because it defeats any sort of standards that are set for answers.
    – jimSampica
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 16:54
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    @gnat One can do both things; rather than only searching for technical solutions to sociological problems. I'm certainly not opposed to the suggestions you've mentioned, but I'm not going to tell someone it's okay to take actively harmful actions at the same time.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 17:10
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    @gnat: I most certainly did not say " He says he upvotes all answers to questions he's asked". I only upvote those that could be useful (they provide the right answer) but are not the way I want to implement.
    – jabs
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 21:16

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