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What are alternatives to ExtJS?

The question had 65 upvotes and 57 stars. The top answer had 82 upvotes and it was community wiki. The question had also been closed for three years. A few days ago it was deleted:

Post Deleted by rlemon, LittleBobbyTables, Cerbrus, Mooseman, Mureinik, marc_s, John Saunders, Yu Hao, Artjom B., Soner Gönül

I must disclose my bias - I was the most active editor of that CW answer, and have been updating and maintaining it for the past several months. Even got a commendation from one of the deletionists, Cerbrus:

This answer is, though complete, quite an eyesore... Maybe removing the images could help?

I'd be happy to delete the images. Anyone could do it - it's a community wiki answer.

The question had also been closed for three years.

Wasn't that enough? Did it really have to be deleted?

Why are we so keen on destroying content?

Having put so much work in the answer, and having seen so many people find it useful, I am deeply saddened by this. And honestly, this may be the last straw for me. I've been linking that answer in numerous discussions online, and now all those links will be broken. I'm now considering moving all my significant SO contributions out on my own website for fear they will share the same fate as this answer.

UPDATE The question was undeleted and locked by Animuson. Thank you.

Can we now use this as a teachable moment for those who have voted to delete it? I feel there is a fine point that George Stocker made in his comment that should be conveyed.

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  • 8
    The question we really should be asking is did we really have not to delete it. Commented Feb 26, 2015 at 17:33
  • 10
    @BradleyDotNET Well, except for the 18 other crap answers...
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 26, 2015 at 17:38
  • 24
    I sense a pattern in these recent deletions of highly voted content: stackoverflow.com/posts/200284/revisions , stackoverflow.com/posts/18414012/revisions , stackoverflow.com/posts/902038/revisions .
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Feb 26, 2015 at 18:23
  • 4
    @BradLarson attack of chatroom 17?
    – canon
    Commented Feb 26, 2015 at 18:38
  • 7
    Here's the teachable moment: No.
    – user1228
    Commented Feb 26, 2015 at 19:42
  • @BradLarson - Yes, indeed. You can find it also in the transcripts.
    – Travis J
    Commented Feb 26, 2015 at 20:27
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    @BradLarson - The first two: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/17?m=21669425#21669425 , chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/11?m=20222442#20222442 . But far more interesting would be the pattern in general of users leveraging influence in chat in order to garner a group of delete votes at all once. chat.stackoverflow.com/… . Certain users seem to have made a habit of this, chat.stackoverflow.com/… . The thing is though, is that most of them needed to be removed.
    – Travis J
    Commented Feb 26, 2015 at 20:43
  • 11
    IMO the question is a poor question, but the answer is sufficiently detailed and helpful that I think protecting it is reasonable. That being said, if I'd seen this question when it was first asked I would have killed it on sight - but sometimes we keep this sort of question around simply to avoid having to repeatedly close more questions of this sort. Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 13:00
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    This kind of thing is exactly why there should be a Stack Overflow blog, like all the other Stack Exchange blogs. No way does this answer belong on the main site. Just because the content is useful, doesn't mean that Stack Overflow is the right place for it. Commented Feb 28, 2015 at 18:49
  • 1
    This is blog or wiki material, not really Q&A. Maybe community wiki should be killed. Commented Feb 28, 2015 at 19:58
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    Can we now use this as a teachable moment for those who have voted to delete it? -- Don't push your luck.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Mar 1, 2015 at 4:08
  • 1
    SO rules could be changed to make it harder to delete: Require more votes to delete highly voted content and a review before it is really deleted.
    – Matt
    Commented Mar 4, 2015 at 7:15
  • 1
    It does require more votes than normal to delete highly-voted content, @Matt.
    – jscs
    Commented Mar 11, 2015 at 20:18
  • 2
    Maybe that is not enough, there should be a final decision required, e.g. a moderator, who will then confirm the deletion. But whatever will be done technically, it will not replace common sense. And if there are people there voting like Lemmings, what can you do ... ?
    – Matt
    Commented Mar 12, 2015 at 7:53
  • 4
    If moderators are not able to delete wrong answers because they do not have the expertise then I do not think they should be able to unilaterally decide to not un/delete something that took a lot of consensus to delete in the first place. Popularity does not equal valuable content or correctness, it does drive page views and ad impressions always keep that in mind.
    – user177800
    Commented Jan 28, 2016 at 23:27

5 Answers 5

150

The question should not have been deleted. Say it with me:

We do not delete good content. We do not delete good content.

There are bad answers on that question (no doubt!) and the question itself is off topic, but that doesn't mean it should be deleted.

If it had no good content? Sure. Delete it.

The appropriate action would have been to flag the question for moderator attention requesting a wiki-lock and cleanup of the answers after.

A historical lock is also a bad idea because the question has a lot of views, good content, and has already shown that the community is willing to update it.

How to handle Off Topic Closed Questions

If you see upvoted content that is useful, don't delete.

If there are a high number of votes or views and there is something to learn; don't delete it.

If you really, really, really, feel like it should be deleted, engage on Meta.

If there's any doubt that something is useful to people; don't delete it. Bring it up on meta. That's what Meta is for.

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    @DanDascalescu The people who delete old upvoted posts know what they're doing, and they know it's frowned upon. They just subscribe to the "If it's off topic, delete it" mentality. It's sort of a wrecking ball approach and often does more harm than good. Short of following them around (please don't), the best we can do is to apply more community pressure to not delete good content. They don't err too much; but they have enough that we're noticing and going behind them and fixing those times when they do egregiously err (like in this case).
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Feb 26, 2015 at 17:58
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    You can take every word in this answer and just pretend I said them too. I'm going to be bringing this up more in-depth here soon. You delete because it wasn't really loved by anyone, and doesn't belong here. Not if it was loved by people, and just ended up not belonging here over time.
    – user50049
    Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 16:08
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    So, say you find a crappy question that should be deleted, and has no answers, but gets quite a bit of views. Answering it with a really good answer makes the question no longer eligible for deletion?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 16:11
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    @Cerbrus, a really good answer (that's non-duplicitive) is a useful resource. What's gained by deleting it?
    – Jaydles Staff
    Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 16:20
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    @Cerbrus If something gets a really good answer then what you're dealing with is a question on a great premise that simply wasn't articulated well. We are not without the tools to fix that. You don't have to, but someone else might want to, yet deleting it basically guarantees that will never happen.
    – user50049
    Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 16:25
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    In fact, I'm half inclined to stop showing delete vote counts on anything where a post attached to it got more than 30 votes. Have to run some queries to see what that would affect, but I'm beginning to think we need more friction in this process, and a bit less motivation, even in the form of seeing votes piling up and deciding to add one more.
    – user50049
    Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 16:26
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    @TimPost do you have any ideas for providing tools for 20k users to work on cleaning up the quality of answers in a question without having to delete the entire question (or canvas for a dozen down votes to get it to -1 so they can then canvas for three delete votes on answers)?
    – user289086
    Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 16:31
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    Popular does not equal useful because the quantity is not qualified and it absolutely has no correlation with quality. Remember Hilter was put in power with a popular vote, did that mean he was a useful quality leader?
    – user177800
    Commented Jan 28, 2016 at 23:30
  • @TimPost, George and others: I've just learned that we still delete good, curated content in large quantities (example). Any suggestions as to how to go about this with some chance of success? I'm afraid to ask again somewhere else, given my question was put on hold on Area51. Commented Jan 3, 2018 at 3:14
  • @DanDascalescu Those sites aren't completely wiped out, we do total dumps of all visible content and make them available on the Internet Archive for anyone to use (potentially, even to make a new site with). What you're witnessing is just us no longer hosting failed sites, after the content has been made available to anyone that wants to download it.
    – user50049
    Commented Jan 3, 2018 at 16:03
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    Thanks @TimPost. How can I access the content via the Internet Archive? My searches there yielded no results. Commented Jan 3, 2018 at 21:17
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    Funny how even the question states this question isn't good content.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 26, 2021 at 18:20
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I'm one of the ten deleters of this question. One of the things you should keep in mind when an 80-vote question is deleted is that it takes about ten of us to do so. That's ten people who decided they never want to see this question again, not just the usual three.

And, that's ten of us with fairly high rep on the site. We're not new to this. Our opinions should carry some weight.

I felt this question was crap and the answers were disorganized. If you want to curate this question, you should consider the following thought experiment: given how the question and answers have turned out so far, create a better quality question on the same topic. Create better quality answers to that question. The questions and answers need not be on-topic for Stack Overflow today, but they should still be in the correct format for Stack Overflow.

They should not be the rambling blog post that this question and answers turned into.

If you can't create something of high quality out of the question and answers, then copy them all to your blog and let our normal processes delete the question.

I am very disappointed that any moderator would override the opinions of ten high-rep users who all thought the question should be deleted. We obviously didn't think that a discussion on meta was necessary before deleting. If the moderator thought such a discussion was necessary, then the ten of us should have been directed to that discussion on meta, and only after a consensus was reached should our ten votes be overridden by the moderator.

It should not take 30 answers to answer this one bad question!!!

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    ten 10K users who voted to delete have gotten over 10,000 (that's ten thousands) total upvotes on their posts. That feels a bit more solid than 80 (that's eighty)
    – gnat
    Commented Mar 1, 2015 at 0:31
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    Out of those 10, we only know for sure that 2 people, John Saunders and whomever voted to delete initially, saw the actual answer before voting to delete the question itself. I don't have the stats, but I doubt very much that when reviewing obviously bad questions, that most people (except for John Saunders) actually take the time to click on the link inside their review queue wizard to go take a look at the entire thread before voting to delete obviously bad questions. Commented Mar 1, 2015 at 6:28
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    @StephanBranczyk only answers can be deleted via LQ queue; questions in there can only close (and system doesn't even let posts with positive score go into this queue). One can vote delete question only from its page, where it is displayed in full, along with answers. I guess this is designed intentionally to prevent issues you imagined
    – gnat
    Commented Mar 1, 2015 at 7:35
  • 2
    My point exactly. They don't want the content lost, fix it!
    – Braiam
    Commented Mar 1, 2015 at 12:04
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As a non-mod, the tools that a user has to do moderation are:

  • Down vote
  • Close vote
  • Delete vote
  • Flag

Flags are perceived by many users as slow and hit or miss for effecting the desired outcome (one only has to look in meta to see people asking why flags are being declined). This is especially the case with custom flags.

The other big tool that 10k users have is the delete vote. Most of the time the delete vote is used ([citation needed] though it would take SE digging to back me up or discredit me) it is used posts that are three delete votes and its gone.

Its really easy to find things needing one delete vote - go look at this query

As of this writing, you can look at this or this for something with one delete vote left on the question.

Here's the thing... some of the answers there are crap, and the question attracts crap answers apparently. As the answers are upvoted, a 20k can't delete vote those answers away (and mods won't delete them either). So, do you delete vote the question that attracts those answers to get rid of them or not?

The ideal case is for mods to actively work on helping the community clean up questions by deleting the poor quality answers so that the remaining answer can be a good candidate for historical locking or wiki lock.

I will point out that, for me, historical locks on questions with crap answers *reek* because its just the question that we say "don't ask like this" but we also preserve the answers but without a notice of "these answers are not good ones either"

The trend you will see when looking at the questions returned by that query is they are old "best XYZ" questions. This really doesn't fit SO's mission and style of Q&A. I personally feel that preserving these questions and answers, however popular and 'useful' ultimately hurts the quality of the site.

We all know how many people read the help center before asking questions. And we should expect a similar portion to read the "don't ask questions like this" on locked questions. But yet these questions exist with hundreds of upvotes representing thousands of reputation points - something we are trained to want to have on Stack Overflow.

So to SE - if these posts belong on stack overflow, give trusted users additional tools to remove the crap answers that are somehow popular as part of the community moderation tools. You know mods are going to decline the flags and so the only tools we have is the delete vote.

So to mods - if you think these are posts with value, act on them now - without flags. Clean up the questions, remove the poor one liner answers that are somehow at +10 score and wiki lock them. Note though that the community isn't maintaining the posts and putting a wiki lock or historical lock on them can send the wrong message to new users (after all, why not start out with a wiki lock question now?). While you may consider yourselves exception handlers only, you are also the ultimate arbitrators of quality on the site - the low bar that you say is "good enough" is going to remain as the low bar for all new posts. The one liner that "addresses the question" will be posted again and again and again by countless users having that be the median quality of an answer. The only tools the 10 and 20ks have to rectify this is deleting the questions that attract such answers wholesale.

Consider trying to work with the toolsmith types to be able to lift the content of these posts into another place (tag wikis? sub pages on tag wikis maybe? blog posts? migration to SoftwareRecs?) so that the content can be preserved, but in a format that is more appropriate than as a Q&A that is really a poll for recommendations.

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That question is definitively not on-topic under current StackOverflow guidelines, which leaves three options, either:

  1. Delete it;
  2. Apply a historical lock; or
  3. Apply a collaborative effort lock (or "wiki lock").

Note that the historical lock will prevent future edits to the answer, which will then become out of date (which is why these questions aren't good for SO in the first place!) As this MetaSE question puts it, posts may not be suitable for historical lock if they "Are being actively maintained".

The collaborative effort lock is for:

questions that are not exactly appropriate for Stack Overflow, are popular and have useful answers where the primary value arises from the community's regular efforts to keep them updated via edits.

which could potentially fit this question.

I'm now considering moving all my significant SO contributions out on my website

If it does end up deleted, I think that it would be good to continue to host the content of that answer somewhere more appropriate for it (assuming by "moving" you mean "copying").

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    for the sake of completeness, there is also a collaborative effort lock feature
    – gnat
    Commented Feb 26, 2015 at 17:42
  • @gnat I didn't even know about that, thanks - is it still an option?
    – jonrsharpe
    Commented Feb 26, 2015 at 17:43
  • Trouble with that is, it presumes considerable collaborative effort... I have no idea whether enough is applied there. Commented Feb 26, 2015 at 17:44
  • yes, I have seen it used and referred several times over here, eg: 1, 2
    – gnat
    Commented Feb 26, 2015 at 17:45
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    BTW: CW-lock is now applied, and the crap deleted. Interestingly, animuson also added the histo-lock notice at the bottom of the question. Commented Feb 26, 2015 at 17:47
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    FWIW, while I understand why "What is the best X" questions are a bad idea to keep on the site, "What are alternatives to X" questions with well-researched unbiased answers seem like adding considerable value. In the decision analysis process, many users will (or could) land on these questions from search engines. Instead of duplicating research into the individual choices, or landing on someone else's cursory analysis, we can have a collaborative answer here on SO. Commented Feb 26, 2015 at 17:51
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    I only downvoted because 'delete it' is not an option: We don't support deleting good content. If there was no good content, then perhaps -- but a question being off topic and a question being deleted because it's off topic are two completely separate events.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Feb 26, 2015 at 17:51
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    There was an attempt at Programmers.SE to move the popular but inappropriate material (example) to another media still affiliated with Stack Exchange (and no, we got bored with trying to do that - that's the only one) - has any thought been given to such here (different user base)?
    – user289086
    Commented Feb 26, 2015 at 22:00
  • you could shutdown SO if its about deleting/locking outdated answers..... My self has to check 5 questions at least to get an up-to-date answer somewhere here or elsewhere....
    – xamiro
    Commented May 29, 2015 at 23:45
3

That question is definitively not on-topic under current Stack Overflow guidelines.

Given that this question is highly popular and upvoted and has a really stellar answer I would only close it here, not delete it.

In general: Questions about tools, libraries... tend to be outdated really fast. That's why they are off-topic on SO. While many people like a comparison of frameworks from an expert, the content will ultimately get outdated. A Q&A does not work very well there. The use to visitors is then typically very limited.

However Software Recommendations tries to deal with it and I recommend to leave these things with them. Questions of these type should at least be closed here and for the future rather live on Software Recommendations. Note however that this particular question is too open-ended for Software Recommendations: questions on Software Recommendations must describe a specific purpose as well as enumerate essential requirements. See the interesting disccusions about Is it okay to ask for alternatives? on their meta.

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    As it is, this question and answer are Wikipedia like entries, not Q&As. Commented Feb 28, 2015 at 19:57
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    I have shown with 2+ revisions per week to my answer that CW answers to questions that require in-depth research can stay updated. It is unfortunate and frustrating that because others can't keep their answers up to date, I'm lumped in with them and have my content deleted. Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 10:10
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    @DanDascalescu I think you are very much a special case here. And you could as well put your good work on a blog/wiki somewhere. Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 11:32
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    Please do not claim that a question is on-topic on a site that you know nothing about. This question would not be accepted on Software Recommendations. (I know: I'm a moderator there.) SR.SE wants questions asking what software to use with a specific purpose, not open-ended lists of software similar to some other software. Commented Apr 7, 2015 at 19:45
  • @Gilles Thank you for the comment. However please do not assume that I know nothing about something which might be seen as being condescending, I'm actually a user on SR.SE too. I appreciate your edit although I still stay with my gut feeling that such questions with modification are much better on SR.SE than on SO.SE. Commented Apr 8, 2015 at 8:41
  • I think "with modification" is a key point over here. As far as I can tell, prior to edit made by @Gilles, readers of this answer would likely repost their stuff at SR without modifications, with a fat chance for it to be met with votes down, close and negative comments
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 8, 2015 at 16:18
  • @gnat Yes, that's right. I posted this answer because noone else mentioned SR which seemed like the obvious way out for all these questions on SO that get closed because of tool/library/.. But one needs to add always that SR wants the question to be specific enough. In the end I think it is a good thing to recommend SR (in the right way) in many such cases. Commented Apr 8, 2015 at 17:31

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