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I've read many times that voting on Meta is different; it should be reflected by the text shown by the tooltips that appear when you mouseover the upvote and downvote arrows.

I'm not suggesting any sentences as replacements. I'll let the guys who agree with me propose them as answers.

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  • 11
    Related (MSE): Change upvote/downvote tooltip on meta sites
    – Knu
    Commented Nov 6, 2016 at 0:47
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    Someone removed a bunch of comments that weren't in any way offensive. Some were upvoted as well. I dunno what's going on here.
    – Knu
    Commented Nov 7, 2016 at 14:31
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    They were deleted because they didn't contribute anything. Several were just asking me to explain the status-declined, which I have in an answer and are now obsolete. The rest were arguing about whether the bug tag was applicable here. What value is there in keeping those comments around?
    – animuson StaffMod
    Commented Nov 7, 2016 at 14:38
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    @animuson don't you find it absurd that the guy with which the community disagrees the most (-20 answer) gets to decline the feature request?
    – Knu
    Commented Dec 8, 2016 at 6:03
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    I am voting to reopen that for the same reason Cody attempted to reopen it before: duplicate is determined by answers, it makes no sense for this one to be closed against an older question with no answers (at least visible to the general audience).
    – 0Valt
    Commented Apr 5, 2021 at 23:42

6 Answers 6

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Firstly, I generally agree with animuson's answer. It is attracting a lot of downvotes, perhaps in part because people are taking offence with the way it is worded. Reading it with enough detachment, though, reveals a strong argument at its core. That key points, as I understand them, are (quoting my own comment to that answer):

  1. "Agree" and "disagree" are poor choices for the tooltips because we want to encourage users to go beyond mere agreement or disagreement and state the underlying reasons for their stances.
  2. It will be very tricky to figure out a concise text for the tooltips that would actually be an improvement over the status quo.

Secondly, even though the odds of success aren't at all good (see point #2 above), here is an attempt at a different wording for the question tooltips. The aim is something that captures what is different about Meta and works reasonably well in all kinds of questions, while not boling down to bare agreement or disagreement (see point #1 above) and not being much longer than the existing text:

This question shows research effort; it is useful, insightful or a good proposal.

This question does not show any research effort; it is not useful, not insightful or not a good proposal.

The features of a good (or bad) question I have chosen are meant to be reasonably independent from each other. "Useful" applies primarily (though not exclusively) to and ; "insightful", to ; and "good proposal", to . You will note that I didn't include "clear". While that is unfortunate, something had to be dropped so that the text didn't become too long. In any case, it might be argued that an unclear Meta question is unlikely to be useful, insightful or a good proposal in the first place. (A second, purely grammatical, issue that annoys me about this phrasing is the break of parallelism in the enumeration, which consists of two adjectives and a predicative complement.) All in all, it is not a fully satisfactory suggestion -- I expect it will be difficult to find one.

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  • "I expect it will be difficult to find one." You mean that it will be hard to please everyone.
    – Knu
    Commented Nov 7, 2016 at 22:49
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    @Knu Not only that -- it is genuinely difficult to suggest all the essential points in a short tooltip. For instance, I'm not at all sure about the extent to which my suggestion here is an improvement.
    – duplode
    Commented Nov 8, 2016 at 0:10
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Meta covers many varied topics, including the four canonical topics of discussion, feature requests, bug, and support. Some of the other topics that seem to arise frequently are:

  • disputing mod decisions
  • clarification of policy/culture
  • complaints (similar to first bullet point, but about other 'plebs')
  • burninating

It's nearly impossible to think of a single message that would make sense with all of those different topics while still being concise enough that people will read it. It would also unwise to have multiple messages which are applied based on tags, since tags are, imo, unreliable. Even just looking at the comments on the main post, you can see that tags are often disputable (see animuson's comment.)

It's a good point you make, and I've seen the question of 'what do votes in Meta mean' often enough to know that it's a common source of confusion, but I don't believe that tooltips are the way to solve this problem.

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  • I think agreement or usefulness can apply to the other topics (burnination votes express agreement, clarification votes express usefulness) but it may be better to just update the section on voting in What is "meta".
    – BSMP
    Commented Nov 7, 2016 at 18:50
  • "I don't believe that tooltips are the way to solve this problem." It's a start, an improvement.
    – Knu
    Commented Nov 7, 2016 at 22:52
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Let's split the different meanings of vote in different UIs.

@animuson makes a good point that we can not know why people use down/up votes.

Some will claim that they do vote to show agreement on a particular post proposal ( I do ), while others will vote only based on the usefulness, or ( lack of ) research effort, just like in main.

The problem is that we need both of these systems to be able to detect bad questions, from good questions with non-accepted proposals (feature-request, burnination).

Currently the only way for the community to show this agreement is unfortunately through this solely vote system, which then allows all different readings of these votes.

So if we take an example like this exact question, I feel completely stuck by the fact that I should upvote it, because This question shows research effort; it is useful and clear and also points a real problem in the system, but I do disagree with the solution proposed.

@animuson also said that we should state clearly why we do disagree, and in a way I am doing it. But if we keep it only this way, then everyone dis/agreeing will have to post his own answer, because votes don't represent agreement, and even if they did, one could vote multiple times on different points made by different users ==> broken vote system.

So instead of changing the tooltip, I think a better way of dealing with this issue would be to have a component in the question that would act like a real Community Agreement Vote System. This could be proposed in any question with the [feature-request] and [burninate-request] (perhaps others).

This would require a lot more of work for dev-team though, and I don't even have time to think of all implications and needs...

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  • The main worrying implication of a parallel voting system is that the odds are overwhelming that it would be misinterpreted by too many people, leading to rants with the form "The question about feature XYZ has a +300 community voting score! You can't ignore The Community! You must implement it, or there will be an uprising!!" (I'm not saying this doesn't already happen, but a parallel voting system would almost certainly make it worse.)
    – duplode
    Commented Nov 8, 2016 at 1:12
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    @duplode, well yes... Either there should be a clear statement that community has no weight in the decision made, either it should really weight
    – Kaiido
    Commented Nov 8, 2016 at 4:19
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    Giving weight to the community in the decisions does not necessarily mean making the decisions according to public opinion polls, which is almost always a bad idea. (There was a longer comment here, but I deleted it because I felt it misrepresented your comment. Reposting this one so that the replies stay in order.)
    – duplode
    Commented Nov 8, 2016 at 4:23
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    I agree that giving weight is not the same as following the community agreement (b.t.w this could be an alt-text following the hypothetical CAVS). My answer addresses the current question. I like your wording's proposal, but it still isn't perfect : how can we vote on post's value instead of agreement ? We need both votes, we can't have a single UI for it. I'm not saying we should do it right now, this would require an entire [discussion] topic before even a [feature-request], but the actual proposal of changing the tooltip can't fix the issue.
    – Kaiido
    Commented Nov 8, 2016 at 4:25
  • [1/2] Insightful posts proposing something that is ultimately flawed do occur, and it is annoying not being able to upvote them, if only to give extra visibility to the question. Still, I'm not sure those cases are enough to justify a double voting system, with the extra complexity it would introduce in terms of both UI and meta-bureaucracy.
    – duplode
    Commented Nov 8, 2016 at 4:50
  • [2/2] As things stand, I think we have no choice but to give "good proposal" priority over "insightful". Things would perhaps be easier if issues were raised more often as open-ended [discussion] questions before being shaped into a [feature-request] in a second moment. For instance, I guess you would upvote this question without thinking twice if it was an open-ended "Should we edit/remove the arrows' tooltips on meta?" rather than a [feature-request]. (P.S.: re: the editing, you're welcome.)
    – duplode
    Commented Nov 8, 2016 at 4:50
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I disagree with the answer of animuson. His point of view is

Votes do not mean agreement/disagreement on Meta in a vast majority of cases.

He also mentioned that we should comment about thoughts, instead of only voting. This is a perfect valid point to me.

I see no reason, to not encourage this in the tooltip.

From the Help Page:

Unlike normal Stack Exchange sites, Meta invites the community to discuss, debate and propose changes to the way the community itself behaves, as well as how the software itself works. On posts tagged feature-request, voting indicates agreement or disagreement with the proposed change rather than just the quality or usefulness of the post itself.

So yes, please change the tooltips, or adjust the help page.

Why not something like these tooltips (For sure it need's better english):

You vote to agree. Please comment on your vote to make it more meaningfull.
You vote to disagree. Please comment on your vote to make it more meaningfull.
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  • You are ignoring two whole paragraphs of that answer, which explain what is meant by "Votes do not mean agreement/disagreement". If you take said paragraphs into account, there is no contradiction with the Help Page.
    – duplode
    Commented Nov 8, 2016 at 7:06
  • To me, the other paragraphs are more about "Please comment. Standalone votes are not helpfull", which I agree with. But voting on Meta has still a different meaning (which we can see live in action on this topic). @duplode Commented Nov 8, 2016 at 7:17
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    But that is precisely the heart of the matter. Another way of putting it would be "Agreement and disagreement are not meaningful in themselves; they are merely proxies for other reasons. Focusing on agreement and disagreement would encourage standalone votes rather than comments which explain those reasons."
    – duplode
    Commented Nov 8, 2016 at 7:22
  • See my edit @duplode Commented Nov 8, 2016 at 7:29
  • Your answer does make a better case now, though I still disagree with putting "agree" and "disagree" front and centre (the corrective "Please comment [...]" sentence, in comparison, seems all too easy to ignore).
    – duplode
    Commented Nov 8, 2016 at 7:40
-9

I'm not suggesting any sentences as replacements. I'll let the guys who agree with me propose them as answers.

Alright, here's a suggestion.

The upvote tooltip on questions should be changed to this (changes emphasized):

This question shows research effort; it defends a good idea, is a good fit for the community-curated FAQ, or useful and clear

The "defends a good idea" part is for s and s. "is a good fit for the community-curated FAQ" is there because apparently, votes on questions tagged with indicate whether or not these questions are worth being tagged with .

Likewise, for question downvotes:

This question does not show any research effort; it defends a bad idea, is not a good fit for the community-curated FAQ, unclear or not useful

Likewise, for answer upvotes:

This answer defends a good idea or is useful

Likewise, for answer downvotes:

This answer defends a bad idea or is not useful

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  • @downvoter You're welcome to suggest ways to shorten the question tooltips I suggested if you think they're too long. Commented Nov 6, 2016 at 17:22
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    I didn't vote, but I like the suggestion made here: keep the current tooltips for [support] and [bug] questions, and 'I agree' / 'I disagree' on the other questions.
    – Glorfindel
    Commented Nov 6, 2016 at 18:57
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    The faq-proposed tag is a tiny, tiny subset of questions on Meta. Why would that even be important enough to be included into the tooltip? Several people on that question explained why your question wasn't useful to the community in a context that fits perfectly well with the existing tooltip.
    – animuson StaffMod
    Commented Nov 7, 2016 at 14:47
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    Be careful there's a user named downvoter.
    – Knu
    Commented Nov 7, 2016 at 14:57
-14

Unfortunately, no one has ever suggested a better alternative to the wording for Meta sites. The current wording is actually still surprisingly accurate for how votes are used on meta site.

I've touched on this before in previous posts, but the actual problem is users are lying to you. Votes do not mean agreement/disagreement on Meta in a vast majority of cases. Sure, it can be a strong factor in your final decision, but that's not an actual reason. It's a lazy cop-out. People are just saying that voting is different here and that it's sometimes based on (dis)agreement because they don't want to explain their real reasons for downvoting, which they really shouldn't. People echoing this nonsense "voting is different" statement every day is my biggest peeve on the network, to the point that I wish we could just flat-out ban it on Meta sites similar to how "what have you tried" is banned on the main site.

Seriously, we constantly complain because users don't explain their downvotes, but then we let everyone throw this nonsense reason around. Voting isn't really all that different here. It's just hard to put your disagreement into actual words that provide constructive criticism and feedback without coming off as rude or ticking somebody off. After all, people become pretty attached to their ideas and don't like when others tear them down. So instead of confronting users and providing useful comments in return, we just hide behind this facade of voting being completely different.

In reality, the correct response is "we don't know why they voted that way" and no one can claim anything else. There are too many different factors that can play into why someone voted a certain way, and we can't possibly cover them all in a single tooltip.

The tooltip should not be so complicated that no one understands what the buttons really should be used for, but they also shouldn't be so simple that they're essentially saying "+1" and "-1" because they have no real meaning. While the current tooltips aren't perfect, they work just fine and cover the essence of voting here on Meta. We just need to teach people to stop saying "I agree" or "I think this idea is stupid" and instead focus on explaining why the idea is or isn't useful, which is exactly what the voting buttons mention.

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    Then we should upvote a good formulated feature request we do disagree with ? Are you going to parse all comments and count how many of the ones stating why they do also disagree with the FR I did upvoted?
    – Kaiido
    Commented Nov 6, 2016 at 23:02
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    "The current wording is actually still surprisingly accurate for how votes are used on meta site." Surely you are joking. It might be somewhat true for upvotes but it's clearly not the case for downvotes. I asked precisely because I can't tell why they are downvoting most of the time. Check the linked question on the right if you don't know what I am talking about.
    – Knu
    Commented Nov 6, 2016 at 23:04
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    @Knu No, I'm not joking. Most of the confusion around how voting on Meta works has been caused by the people who consistently tell users nonsense to get out of providing real reasons. For example, post quality is a sub-reason of usefulness. Something that is poorly written is inherently less useful because it doesn't make sense. Similarly, disagreement is not a real reason. There's some underlying reason why you think a hypothetical feature would not be useful that causes you to disagree with it. If users aren't willing to bring that reason to light, they shouldn't say anything at all.
    – animuson StaffMod
    Commented Nov 6, 2016 at 23:13
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    Sounds like wishful thinking to me. We should reflect the reality not a concept. It creates confusion and hurts the UX of MSO.
    – Knu
    Commented Nov 6, 2016 at 23:23
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    users are lying to you, that's quite a strong comment, and at least for my part, completely false. I don't know how exactly can you affirm that so sure, I mean, how can you possibly know the intent behind the votes on meta?
    – Lamak
    Commented Nov 7, 2016 at 14:19
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    So I gather that you have been pulling the tooth of almost every downvote in meta, since you can state as a fact that votes do not mean agreement/disagreement on Meta is a vast majority of cases
    – Lamak
    Commented Nov 7, 2016 at 14:32
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    Yes, you claim that the users in meta lie, pretend and hide....I'm just wondering how do you know all this for the majority of users
    – Lamak
    Commented Nov 7, 2016 at 15:20
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    @Lamak Its a fact of life. It is simply impossible to develop an opinion of (dis)agreement without having a reason why you agree or disagree. Even if the reason you do is something incredibly simple like "my coin landed on heads" that is still a reason nonetheless. A lack of reason implies a lack of opinion. It's just not everyone will dive deeper to find that reason, and are instead more inclined to simply express their surface-level disagreement. This isn't a writing class in school - we can't force users to explain themselves, but that doesn't mean we should encourage users not to.
    – animuson StaffMod
    Commented Nov 7, 2016 at 15:28
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    But this discussion wasn't about encouraging users to explain their votes at all. It was about the tooltip in meta being "It's not useful" instead of saying something about "disagreement"
    – Lamak
    Commented Nov 7, 2016 at 15:33
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    @Lamak But that leads back to exactly what I'm saying. Users always have a reason that they're just not surfacing. They do think it is useful or not useful, but are instead only surfacing agree or disagree. Changing it to agree and disagree just makes voting more vague and not representative of what the votes actually mean here, while encouraging users to not surface those reasons which could result in valuable and constructive discussion because, well, the tooltip already covers their surface reason so there's no need for further comment.
    – animuson StaffMod
    Commented Nov 7, 2016 at 15:36
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    This answer is fundamentally right. Putting it in a slightly different way: (1) "Agree" and "disagree" are poor choices for the tooltips because we want to encourage users to go beyond mere agreement or disagreement and state the underlying reasons for their stances. (2) It will be very tricky to figure out a concise text for the tooltips that would actually be an improvement over the status quo.
    – duplode
    Commented Nov 7, 2016 at 16:48
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    Wow all this time I thought downvotes meant disagreement. Now I am really confused based on this answer.
    – JonH
    Commented Nov 7, 2016 at 16:58
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    Lying doesn't have to be intentional...if you pull their tooth long enough you can usually get to the bottom of why they disagree - That doesn't make the disagreement a lie. You're conflating truthfulness with usefulness. Just because the statement, "I disagree" isn't useful doesn't mean it isn't true.
    – BSMP
    Commented Nov 7, 2016 at 18:25
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    Often people new to Meta think they are getting down votes because people think the question was asked poorly: unclear, missing information, etc. It is useful to explain to them that down votes can happen based on agreement with the idea in the post, not just how clearly that idea is explained. In reality, the correct response is "we don't know why they voted that way" - There's usually plenty of comments explaining why users don't like an idea; the OP just isn't tying those to down votes because they're thinking of voting the way it happens on main.
    – BSMP
    Commented Nov 7, 2016 at 18:36
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    From the Help Page: Unlike normal Stack Exchange sites, Meta invites the community to discuss, debate and propose changes to the way the community itself behaves, as well as how the software itself works. On posts tagged feature-request, voting indicates agreement or disagreement with the proposed change rather than just the quality or usefulness of the post itself. Commented Nov 8, 2016 at 6:34

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