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I've seen a few users on Meta recently who appear to be getting lynch-mobbed on the site after either posting an unpopular opinion here, or being the subject of a post because of their actions.

Example user 1 (let's call him Jim)

Jim answered a Meta question like this:

Stack Overflow is full of rude jerks and Egomaniacs who just want to make themselves feel all big and powerful by pushing around other users.

and proceeded to receive a bunch of downvotes on some of his unrelated questions on the main site:

Screenshot 2

Example user 2 (let's call him Bob)

Bob was the subject of a Meta post recently for sending the following offensive email to another user:

Y U edit my posts?! Don't you have anything better to do? Your website sucks and looks stupid! Why don't you learn to be a better programmer instead of trying to be a rep whore on Stack Overflow?

When this came to light, Bob started receiving a bunch of downvotes on his old, unrelated questions on the main site:

Screenshot 3

At first I dismissed these votes as being unrelated to Meta and just as normal main site activity, but after seeing these users' reputation history several hours later, it's clear that there is abuse going on here on the part of (some) Stack Overflow community members who should know better, and it's quite disappointing.

What are we doing?

One of the central tenets of this site is that we vote based on content, not on the owners of that content (including even any disagreeable behavior on the part of those owners). Yet here we are, apparently getting our "revenge" downvotes.

Why are (some) of us doing this? This is beneath us. The members of Meta are supposed to be the highest exemplars and greatest of role models for the rest of the Stack Overflow community, and yet we seem to be acting childish and petty. I was thinking about this in the comments earlier today: is it really active Meta members who engage in mob-downvoting behavior? Or is this behavior exhibited mostly by random, drive-by users who stumble upon Meta for the first time (through the Community Bulletin, for example), or who are infrequent visitors here? Or maybe it's an even mix of the two?

Regardless of who does it, the mob-downvoting on the main site, given when you merely express an unpopular opinion here on Meta (or take some kind of inappropriate action) is not ok.

Am I missing something here? Is what I'm saying unreasonable, uninformed, or misguided?

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    I don't think you can really prevent it, but kudos for pointing it out. The problem is that topics brought up here are highly subjective, and this is one (albeit unfortunate) way of expressing an opinion on a particular topic.
    – AstroCB
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 18:26
  • 1
    I've added "votes" because I think the meta effect can go both ways. Why didn't I add up-votes? I dunno!! Too many Meta-CupCakes
    – Andrew Barber Mod
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 18:27
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    Umm, well that screenshotted one probably happened because you posted a link to that question in the Tavern requesting it be closed as a duplicate. I don't think the downvotes came because of the Meta post, but because the post sucks and you pointed it out for closure.
    – animuson StaffMod
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 18:28
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    @Cupcake Yes: that question wasn't exactly worthy of 30 upvotes...
    – AstroCB
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 18:34
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    The "meta effect" has, of course, been happening for time out of mind. Scores get badly exaggerated vis-a-vis what you would have expected for that post in the absence of attention directed onto it from meta. Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 18:38
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    In my view, this is the general case on the main site in terms of contagious voting, up and down, anyways. The only difference is you draw attention to yourself by potentially the whole of overflow on Meta. On the main site people tend to hang around their tags. It will eventually stop when the majority of users don't participate in Meta at all. Commented Aug 9, 2014 at 4:41
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    @ChiefTwoPencils I'm sorry, but I don't understand your comment at all, can you clarify please?
    – user456814
    Commented Aug 9, 2014 at 4:42
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    I agree Cupcake, it's difficult to state anything without data and real context. But as there are real people associated with these data points and mob doesn't see the contents and discussions objectively, anonymity has to be used to safegaurd users. Lets see how this goes. Commented Aug 9, 2014 at 9:30
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    Punishment. I have had this also and can attest that it's discouraging and overall bad for the site. The naive user who sees down votes will conclude that the answer has no technical merit and does not understand the mechanics of Stack Overflow's punishment system. It's also discouraging that every time it's raised in Meta, the higher ups remain consistently in denial.
    – Gayot Fow
    Commented Aug 9, 2014 at 10:30
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    @aliteralmind link:your-post-url. It depends on Google having it indexed though.
    – user456814
    Commented Aug 9, 2014 at 23:37
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    @Cupcake - can you lock voting on it for a period? Kind of like suspending trading on a volatile stock?
    – jww
    Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 0:13
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    @jww mods can lock a post of course, but what are they supposed to do, lock every one of the affected user's posts? How long are they supposed to lock them for? A week? That's an entire week of missed opportunities for legitimate upvotes as well.
    – user456814
    Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 0:15
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    @jww you're making suggestions to the wrong person, poke Shog about it.
    – user456814
    Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 6:41
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    @adeneo additionally, being mob downvoted on the main site for merely expressing an unpopular opinion (or even an un-constructive one) on Meta can be a big turn-off for people, especially users with less rep than us. I see this as extremely harmful and counter-productive.
    – user456814
    Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 7:14
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    I think one should never ever vote on a post on the main site, when the reason he became aware of the post is meta. i never do, because I think it's just unfair. Maybe this can even be enforced automatically: if a user clicks on link pointing from a meta-post to a main-site-post, that question - including all its answers - should be marked as "from-meta" for this user, and he shouldn't be allowed to vote on it for at least 1 week. that would be fair I think. (other votes, such as close-votes or open-votes, shouldn't be affacted by this.) just my two cents.
    – Michael
    Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 14:52

7 Answers 7

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I got an even better idea: stop going after individuals because you don't like something they wrote. Not on meta, not on the main site, not in chat, and certainly not via email.

  1. Don't go through someone's posts just looking for something to downvote / close / delete.
  2. Don't throw their work up for ridicule in chat / twitter / meta.
  3. Don't try to "balance out" something you think they've done with similar sketchy actions of your own.

We can't stop folks from bringing up specific issues here on meta, and we wouldn't want to - that's one of the main reasons for which meta exists! But we can and we should strive to always make these discussions about the issue - the post, the action, the event - and not about a person. Because as soon as you stop trying to define the problem and start labeling an individual, you're inviting the mob to attack - regardless of whether or not that was your intention.

There are all sorts of different ways this can happen, but here are some red flags to watch for in your own writing:

  • Direct link to a user's profile.
  • Naming another user (rather than just describing a problem and linking to posts that illustrate it)
  • Pejorative terms like "vampire", "roboreviewer", "whore" or "php"

If you find yourself including these in your posts (or comments), stop and ask if you could conduct a productive discussion without doing so - if it turns out you can, then don't. Always be watchful for other signs that you're inadvertently encouraging others to behave badly. You can't stop a mob, but you can sure as hell avoid inciting one!

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    'Pejorative terms like [...] "php" ::chortle:: Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 18:51
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    Shog for president! Best answer. Ever. Now if only every meta user would actually read and obey this answer...
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 18:52
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    @Shog: Did you see animuson's comment about what really happened in this case? Because that looks like it wasn't really targeted at the user, especially not through her answer on meta. Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 19:18
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    @Deduplicator the question already had several downvotes on it when I went to go look at the user's profile to check if she was still receiving downvotes on her posts. She was. A lot of those downvotes were already there before I linked to it in chat. My point was that it looked like someone else purposefully went digging through the user's profile for stuff to downvote. In the bigger picture, however, especially in my second example, I think it's clear that there is mob behavior going on here on Meta.
    – user456814
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 19:23
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    Well, Cupcake is alarmist, but there is also a tendency for meta to generate attention @Deduplicator. Of course, you can generate plenty of attention by posting a link into chat too, which Cupcake also demonstrated.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 19:46
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    It would still be useful to get tools that aid in preventing it (anonymizing for example). Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 20:13
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    @BenjaminGruenbaum: Those who really want to anonymize are already doing it..On the hand, some users are "inviting the mob to attack" by calling out users on Meta despite already having all the possible solutions earlier in another identical post. The answers were for every occurence of the incident Commented Aug 9, 2014 at 4:08
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    @bjb568: If someone is determined to find the editor..yes..can be found. But atleast the author made a sincere attempt IMO. The sincerity of the author was remarkable enough to make it the first example that came to my mind. As opposed to people who unleash Meta effect on users when they have already been told how a problem should be resolved. Commented Aug 9, 2014 at 6:22
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    @InfiniteRecursion I spend considerable amount of effort "anonymizing" myself, I end up working in order to do it and then apologizing and asking in the comments to not make it about the specific user here ARE some examples . I believe anonymizing the post linked to should be the default in meta. Otherwise we usually end up witch hunting like OP described. Commented Aug 9, 2014 at 6:24
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    If anyone is thinking "What about these Jon Skeet meta posts? Aren't they specific to a single user?". The answer is No! Jon Skeet is not a person, but rather an idea whose time has come!
    – CRABOLO
    Commented Aug 9, 2014 at 13:55
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    What if we could create links that would go to "anonymized" pages. You could put the link under the "share" button in the question/answer. The question would have user-details removed but retain everything else. Wouldn't prevent the determined people from bandwagoning but would definitely help with "drive-bys". This would also make it easier to edit meta questions to be anonymous.
    – jimSampica
    Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 1:31
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    @Shog9: Even if you don't link to the person, people are going to visit their profile from the post page and attack them anyway. So it's all or nothing.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 4:33
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    My response to that is always, "Are you going to upvote decent posts too?" @JasonC. Because if not, then it's not really the same thing as organic votes, is it...
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 19:29
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    Some people are going to do it anyway regardless of what I write, @Jason - that's why the bulk of my answer concerns strategies for not unintentionally encouraging it, rather than preaching at the folks who probably aren't reading this.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 20:02
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    I don't care how you find the posts as long as you're evaluating them based on the individual merit of each in context and not prejudice based on past impressions of the author, @tripleee - and yes, that's really hard to do sometimes, but if you can pull it off more power to you. Not a fan of going through profiles looking for a few posts to downvote (or upvote) and ignoring those that don't meet this criteria though.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 12, 2014 at 4:18
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One of the central tenets of this site is that we vote based on content, not on the owners of that content

But this is why. If a post gets discussed on meta, it gets a lot of attention from users who normally wouldn't be reading those particular search tags. They read the post, and then vote based on the post's content.

Now if there was something bad with the post, which might be the very reason it was brought to attention, the post itself will get mass down-voted.

The main problem is that meta is completely open to anyone, while there are various support requests with live posts as examples. If it was possible to raise such support requests to moderators only, we wouldn't be getting these side-effects. Now every such post indirectly tells the "dumb masses" to start pondering the linked material, and toss their subjective and/or inexperienced opinions into the discussion.

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    It's the same reason we spend our lives bitching about crappy reality TV when, really, we wouldn't even know it existed if the dumb masses didn't keep supporting it. Just a consequence of big society; can't be fixed. Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 9:19
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    No, this is not the kind of mob downvoting that I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is when a user expresses an unpopular opinion here on Meta (example, "Meta is full of A-holes and stupid Nazis!"), and subsequently starts to receive mass downvotes on their unrelated content on the main site. I've anonymized my examples above for this very reason. The users in question expressed unpopular opinions here on Meta, and started to become mass downvoted on the main site for it. Do you consider that to be ok?
    – user456814
    Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 15:45
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I have been guilty of this, but not in the sequence suggested.

I'll try to explain. If a user says on meta:

Stack Overflow is full of rude jerks and Egomaniacs who just want to make themselves feel all big and powerful by pushing around other users.

Then of course, I'm going to look for specific examples through the user's history on Stack Overflow itself.

That being said, it doesn't mean that I've made up my mind yet; it just means that I'm looking for evidence that might explain his opinion, one way or another. In fact, I'm probably going to open a dozen of his previous posts all at once all as background tabs.

After all, I do know that there are jerks on Stack Overflow, and I also do know that not everyone on Stack Overflow is a jerk, so for me, the only thing that remains is to research through the poster's history to explain his opinion.

And if I do find posts/questions/comments that I disagree with, or agree with, you bet that I am going to vote on them. Usually, the more specific a question is or the more specific an example is, the easier it is for me to form an opinion on it.

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    It is a tight line. Someone may come over here all in tears - "why are u closing all my posts!!" What else can we do but check the asker's history? And, hey, what if we indeed find a flurry of Bad Questions ... and they are not (yet) Fully Closed? (In cases such as those I only vote when the questions are within my fields of expertise. But still.)
    – Jongware
    Commented Jun 29, 2015 at 21:26
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    Up voting because while I don't open as many tabs, I do go to user's profiles to see what provoked the rant. It has happened that someone's had a legit reason to be upset even if they are making their complaint in the worst way possible. It's also useful to find out whether someone regularly trolls/rants before you go through the bother of trying to help them.
    – BSMP
    Commented Oct 6, 2015 at 16:17
  • Yes, that number of tabs I suggested was a bit high. It would really depend on the amount of sugar and caffeine I had just before opening them. Commented Oct 6, 2015 at 16:38
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I'm going to play devil's advocate here...

There are plenty of times where users deliberately incite the mob and then come crying to meta about how it isn't fair that the mob responded.

To be clear I'm talking about users who go off on a rant about some perceived injustice, when in reality it is more of a:

"I don't adhere to the communities guidelines and you people aren't treating me with the respect and admiration that a beautiful and unique snowflake deserves..."

This doesn't only happen here on Meta. I've seen it in questions, comments, answers, and apparently it happens in chat as well.

What usually happens in these cases? Well...

Other users see a case where someone has outed themselves as openly not adhering to the rules. They check to see if there is a pattern of behavior and where they see it they vote accordingly.


To more directly address the question of people outing other users:

There are a number of different scenarios where this occurs, but I think the most common happens when people are responding to the users described above.

It usually plays out something like this:

User A:

  • @UserB I noticed that you did X, please don't do that because of Y and Z. To learn more about X, Y, and Z please see the related documentation.

User B:

  • @UserA I noticed that you're always trying to tell other users what to do. Get Bent.

Then User A goes to Meta and airs the issue publicly and User B is either unaware of the Meta discussion and is unable to defend themselves, or is aware and helps to further escalate the issue.


To be clear I'm not endorsing publicly shaming users or mobbing them. What I'm trying to say is that more often than not problem users dig their own graves.

I think that Shog9 is right to a point. When we see a problematic behavior or issue and we feel the need to discus it publicly, we should be discussing the behavior/issue and not the specific users involved.

If we really think we've found a problem user who exhibits a history of bad behavior, we should let the moderators handle them.

A custom moderator flag allows up to 500 characters, more than enough room to describe an issue and give several links to support it.

After all isn't that why we have moderators?

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I think the issue could be solved with money reputation.

When downvoting an answer, the answerer loses 2 points and the downvoter loses 1 point. The amounts are small, but the downvoter pays half what the answerer pays, and thus is reluctant to downvote for no good reason.

On the other hand, when downvoting a question, the OP loses 2 points and the downvoter loses nothing. The mechanism used to be that of the answers (with the downvoter losing one point), but was changed to encourage users to "judge" the worth of questions.

This change unfortunately opened the door to this kind of behavior: any user with the ability to vote can now bring down the reputation of any other user as long as they asked questions.

Maybe that we should review this decision:

  • either bring back the -1 for downvoting a question
  • or remove the -2 for having a question downvoted
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    I believe -2 for downvoting question is fair. Because - it serves a goal to prevent people of asking poor questions many times. Should we add -1 for downvoter? - well, it's debatable. If we'll do that - yes, the case like in this topic may be resolved, but on the other hand, bad questions will get less downvoted (while those downvotes are well-deserved) and, therefore, would not be a reason for OP to think about - what's wrong (so it may in some way "promote" bad questions)
    – Alma Do
    Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 7:55
  • In particular, down votes need to weigh a bit more. If you get 10 rep for every up vote you receive, but lose nearly nothing for every down vote you cast, there is a rep inflation which encourages down voting in general.
    – Lundin
    Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 7:57
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    @Lundin: I am not sure the rep inflation is an issue, if we had a fixed amount of reputation shared among users, we would end up in a position similar to bitcoins where you start counting in fractions. However I do agree that I find it strange that an answer with 1 Up and 4 Down still gives reputation to the answerer. Personally, I would be up for 1 Up = 1 Down and having the downvoter pay half the price. Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 8:30
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    I'm for this, if and only if upvoting a question costs 1 rep as well.
    – Wooble
    Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 13:09
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    Yes, we need to bring back the penalty for downvoting questions. Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 15:08
  • What about free downvotes for the questions for first week? Then it requires rep. to downvote. Commented Jan 27, 2015 at 7:38
  • @FurkanOmay: I think it is flawed, because the creation of new users is free. So I can easily create a new "puppet account" specifically for the purpose of downvoting (since it's free the first week). Commented Jan 27, 2015 at 8:48
  • @MatthieuM. I didn't mean users. Your question can be downvoted for free but only for first week. This way it's still easy to punish bad questions. Commented Jan 27, 2015 at 9:10
  • @FurkanOmay: Ah! That indeed would be interesting, it would certainly limit the revenge aspect. May I suggest you make it an answer of its own, it's a concept that I think stands on its own. Commented Jan 27, 2015 at 9:17
  • @MatthieuM. I did. But it's not really welcomed I guess. Commented Jan 27, 2015 at 12:14
  • Honestly, I never noticed that the -1 for downvoting questions had been rescinded in the first place.
    – SamB
    Commented Dec 31, 2015 at 2:55
  • ok, it happens, but that is really an edge case. Even serial downvoting is an edge case. Commented Aug 30, 2017 at 19:57
-1

This is not really preventable, and if you offend some group you're going to get punched.

Here is my unpopular opinion:

Still, this can be reduced by reintroducing the reputation cost for downvotes on old questions.

For example, for a week or month, questions can be downvoted freely to keep the site clean and punish users who ask bad questions.

There should be another reason than "I don't like this guy" to downvote a millennium old question about Visual Basic 1.0 for DOS by 20 different users without closing it.

The downvote reason is not important as long as it's based on content, but making it free for every question is open to abuse in cases like this.

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    You know, that will put a crimp in many a site-cleanup campaign. Because too many will avoid downvoting. Commented Jan 27, 2015 at 17:48
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    +1 - While it seems an unpopular opinion, I think it could work both ways. A bad question usually receives negative attention quickly -- there's not much reason why it would be further down-voted after the first week/month.
    – James
    Commented Aug 11, 2015 at 12:12
-13

This needs a formula. Divide meta by time and throttle downvotes accordingly? Formula basically means if there is a lot of recent meta there can only be so many downvotes in the next x amount of time. Wouldn't this solution be appropriate?

To expand, if the mob-downvoting is due to positive attention within a short span of time then it would be possible to calculate the amount of good karma over the last number of hours, if this triggers a certain ratio then the restriction on negative meta can kick-in for a similar amount of time.

This wouldn't prevent users from downvoting, it would just limit the functionality to a certain number of users for a certain short period of time. In this way the throttle cant be abused because it is a formula set by the voting system and programmed into the backend. Does this make sense? Am I mis-interpreting the question?

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  • I think you might want to expand more on how this proposed solution is supposed to work.
    – user456814
    Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 15:20
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    Throttling the down votes would leave that functionality open to abuse. Besides if I don't like a question why shouldn't my vote count because too many other people feel the same way already? I think it's a hard one to control, unless you can elaborate on your proposal - maybe I am missing some magic here?
    – Scott
    Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 15:24
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    I'm not saying you wouldn't be able to downvote, just that only the next 'x' amount of users will be able to downvote the meta in the next 'x' period of time. This wouldn't be able to be abused because the throttle would be trigged by a ratio as explained above. It would have to be coded into the backend of SO.
    – user43251
    Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 15:30
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    Why only throttle downvotes? What about upvotes, or do you wantto skew voting more than happens due to prominence anyway? Commented Jun 29, 2015 at 21:08

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