101

I've noticed a form of abuse recently.

Take a look at this revision history I've noticed this user as well as several others often do the following:

  • Leave an empty answer that does not contribute to the question.
  • Delete it, so it can't be down voted.
  • Write the answer down.
  • Undelete it.

This means that the answer is now marked as the first answer on the question (which attracts upvotes for being first) although it was not an answer, and it can not be penalized since it is deleted.

In my opinion, this form of abuse should not be acceptable in Stack Overflow. Before making a concrete feature request - What can we be done to mitigate or prevent it?

a dirty business

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  • 27
    Why would you clear out his nickname if you link to his revision history? Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:07
  • 23
    @BartekBanachewicz I can't clear the name from his revision history, I would if I could. This is "minimizing the witch hunt" as I'd really like to focus on fixing the problem rather than focusing on a specific instance. Any suggestions welcome. Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:08
  • 42
    For me, if I asked a question, and there were two answers that had similar, and correct content, and they aren't really better than eachother, i'd go off of the timestamp, which is, then, where this becomes the issue. I think. Maybe.
    – ndugger
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:10
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    @LightnessRacesinOrbit, but it is not only about votes. There are also the badges, for example: enlightened. Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:12
  • 22
    @LightnessRacesinOrbit You know that fastest guns really do get more upvotes, right ? Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:13
  • 8
    @rubenvb You'll find that the people that try to abuse site mechanics for the sake of reputation (exception those that go to the point of committing voting fraud) tend to have a lot of rep. When you go out of you way to do everything you can to try to get rep, you tend to get more of it than people that don't care as much about trying to get rep. This shouldn't be surprising.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:13
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    @Jongware the original answer was simply nothing. it was the minimal amount of text to act as a placeholder.
    – rlemon
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:15
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    @rlemon: it might have been edited inside the grace period. "Oh wait, that was not a good answer."
    – Jongware
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:16
  • 7
    @Jongware, the problem is that this might be abusing the system when using the grace period (perhaps he was unable to complete the trick before the end of that period this time): you put a place holder, look at other similar answers appearing within those minutes, change yours substantially, and there you go, you've got the "earliest" and best answer.
    – Bruno
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:19
  • 8
    Good that you brought this up. But I'm surprised that you didn't mention the other more common form wherein an extremely high rep user would change her answer within the 5-minute grace period to include approaches suggested in other answers thereby making those appear redundant.
    – devnull
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:46
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    I once posted this too: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/256312/… -- Interestingly enough what I could gather was that folks consider it okay to fix your answer (even if you're copy/pasting from the other ones). Sweet.
    – devnull
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:50
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    @LightnessRacesinOrbit "withholding upvotes"?, why should you mandate how that user wants to upvote?. If he thinks that only one of two correct but similar answers merits an upvote then he should be upvoting one. "That's not your job", what, we have jobs here now?
    – Lamak
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 16:40
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    @LightnessRacesinOrbit Again, you don't get to dictate how someone else choose to upvote. My opinion is that of both answers, only one gets un upvote (it's not really even my opinion, but a perfectly valid one nevertheless)
    – Lamak
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 21:03
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    @LightnessRacesinOrbit: People are not ideal. The system is not ideal either. Some try to game the system. Some others are frustrated by that and may very well want to go by their own voting rules in attempts to prevent the abuse. Why? Because gaming the system leads to gaining unwarranted rep, and it seems there is this large category of people who tend to trust the poster's rep more than necessary. That leads to highly-voted rubbish. And that, in turn, defeats the (main?) purpose of the system.
    – Andriy M
    Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 5:45
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    @LightnessRacesinOrbit: Maybe I misunderstand the word "community" or the phrase "community decides". I thought my decisions together with all the others' decisions aggregate to the community decision on something or other.
    – Andriy M
    Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 12:50

7 Answers 7

68

Sorry for being late to the discussion. I think it started late in the evening (my time, IST).

The initial solution (and this) that I wrote was completely wrong, which I understood after I posted it as an answer, and then I didn't have any option but to delete it. When I delete an answer which is completely wrong as a normal practice (probably to hide how wrong it was), I replace it with some content, like .. as was shown in the history. The original answer was not shown in the revision, because it was edited within the 5 min period.

As you can see from the attached fiddle references (there are multiple fiddle versions where I started to workout the solution), it was not a fastest gun approach. I think it was a genuine mistake from my side in understanding the question in my first read... In normal circumstances I won't post an answer without testing it against a fiddle if possible...

After which I updated the answer and posted the new answer.

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    I think too many ppl here complain about others trying weird ways to "steal rep" - Thanks Arun for explaining, I hope this is a humbling moment for all the suspecting complainers who have already posted on this thread. Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 6:47
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    But still I don't understand why you started with an empty post. It still seems like a race for the earliest time stamp. The delete and undelete probably wasn't part of it. Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 7:27
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    @Trilarion there were no empty post... Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 7:29
  • Then I do not understand the revision history. I shows me a 1 and ".." followed by a delete. Isn't this an empty post? Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 7:32
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    @Trilarion .. was actually the original post... I posted an answer(wrong one), then deleted it within 5 mins and updated the answer with .. Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 7:34
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    Whatever the reason (and I trust Arun), the solution proposed by Bartek would only be positive in my opinion (use as display|sorting date the one of the last undelete). Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 8:02
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    @Trilarion: Remember that edits within the first five minutes are not shown in the revision history. (We call them "ninja edits".) Both Arun (above) and Benjamin (here) have explained why the first edit could look blank when in fact the answer did not start out blank. Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 8:38
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    "When I delete an answer which is completely wrong as a normal practice (probably to hide how wrong it was), I replace it with some content, like .. as was shown in the history." While you're free to continue doing so, I don't see how there's any benefit to this (and, in this particular case, would have meant you weren't used as the example for this question). You were wrong, so what? Only 10k+ users can see deleted posts anyway, and I suspect every one of us is familiar with the concept of totally misinterpreting a question now and then. Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 8:39
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    I'm with Anthony. It grinds my gears when people "hide" their mistakes in deleted posts. In fact, if they do so after the grace period, I tend to roll the edit back (yes, even on a deleted post!) because it smells like vandalism and I don't like it on any post that I can, nonetheless, see. Besides, if there are any comments on that post then it's nice to see what they're talking about. Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 9:51
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    @LightnessRacesinOrbit From what I can see from a very recent discussion it seems to be an OK behavior... regardless if it is done after the grace period(5 mins) it is useless Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 10:04
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    @ArunPJohny: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/266760/560648 Though yes I'm in a minority here Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 10:20
  • @sth: I doubt it, since he got his answer accepted and the most upvotes. You're just talking rubbish. Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 15:58
  • @LightnessRacesinOrbit: Well, maybe I went a little bit overboard with that...
    – sth
    Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 16:21
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    It seems to me that it would've made slightly more sense to post an entirely new answer rather than editing the one you'd deleted to contain completely new content. This would've both avoided confusion for anyone who reads the edit history later and removed any possibility for you to unfairly benefit from the timestamp making it look like you'd answered first. That said, it's pretty clear that this was entirely honest behaviour and the arguable harms of it are very petty, so... shrugs.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jul 26, 2014 at 9:32
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    This discussion is completely out of my league since I don't even have a 2k rep, but it seems preposterous that a poster with a 147k rep would resort to a tactic like posting an empty answer, then deleting it, then undeleting it with the answer in place. All that so he can add 10, 20, or even 100 points to his rep?
    – yitwail
    Commented Jul 27, 2014 at 1:41
99

The simplest way to easily mitigate that would be to reset the answer timestamp when it's undeleted.

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    That's actually a pretty good idea, alternatively adding "undeleted on" would also suffice in this case. Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:09
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    in the spirit of "SO tracks everything" I'd be more for an 'undeleted on' label
    – rlemon
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:10
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    @BenjaminGruenbaum, doesn't undelete already show as "modified on"?
    – Bruno
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:11
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    I would still like to see the answer's timestamp as the undeleted time. people can check edit history if they want the details. The text reads "answered X ago", which is accurate for undeleted answers regardless.
    – rubenvb
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:12
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    This proposal looks good. But an inquiry over this practice which is clearly an abuse should be done too in my opinion. Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:12
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    Maybe only allow undeletions after a certain time has elapsed. Something like accepting answers also has a forced time delay.
    – rubenvb
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:13
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    @rubenvb In that case you're preventing people from using the feature correctly to undelete a good post just to combat a practice that isn't terribly commonly seen. There are ways of preventing this abuse without negatively impacting people acting appropriately.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:16
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    @rubenvb It prevents people from undeleting an answer that they've fixed after it had problems, or at the very least, makes it super annoying for them in that they need to go do something else, try to remember that they need to return to that answer, then return to the answer later and undelete it. The odds of someone forgetting or not bothering are reasonably high there.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:22
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    delete/undelete is also handy when the real question is "evolving" as a result of comments. You answer the X problem, then as it turns out to be Y, you might delete and learn more, then edit and undelete. Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:22
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    @Plutonix: Such a question should be entirely nuked. Stack Overflow is not a forum or discussion board. It does not have "evolution". Post a question, then post answers. Anything in between is abuse/idiocy. Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:22
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    @LightnessRacesinOrbit No, if you modify an answer within 5 minutes of posting it, I don't think it leaves any mark at all (unlike comments).
    – Bruno
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:23
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    @LightnessRacesinOrbit by that logic any question which requires more information to be elicited via comments should be nuked etc. (and I did not mean it to be an XY problem, simply one where a little more info changes your original diagnosis). Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:25
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    @Plutonix: No, any question which is transformed into a new question after comments have revealed its lies and after answers have already been posted, should be nuked (or left in its original form). Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:34
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    @LightnessRacesinOrbit transformed into a new question are your words, not mine. Comments routinely ask the OP to edit the question to show more info. The reason for more info is to ...well, get more info. That there might be answers extant is irrelevant. Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:40
  • 2
    Do you mean answer timestamp?
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:52
27

I've just thought up a pattern where this form of revision history is not abusive:

  • You answer the question thinking you've provided a useful solution.
  • The OP edits the question in the first 5 minutes to change it, or in second thought you realize the solution doesn't work.
  • You edit the answer to . . and delete it. There was a recent meta thread where some users explained that they edit their answer to empty it before deleting it. I don't understand that but it's not a harmful pattern.
  • Since this is all in the first 5 minutes this leaves no mark on the revision history.
  • In second thought and after more attempts you realize that you can answer it and you write a new answer.
  • You un-delete the post, creating the pattern we've observed here.

Bartek's solution would still work in this case, not harming this use case but helping in the cases this is actual abuse. This scenario is likely given who the user in this example is which I intentionally picked since he is less likely to be abusive given his contribution to the community. I've invited the user to participate in this discussion and hopefully he'll clarify.

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  • But it looks like he only entered in a dash(-) for the first post? Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:30
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    @staticx right, it does. This is because you don't see the first 5 minutes of editing in the revision history. Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:31
  • @BenjaminGruenbaum: He's asking how any revision could possibly consist of just a -. The answer is, more than likely, zero-width spaces — the dash is, in fact, part of the diff rendering and not part of the revision's content. Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:31
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    This is abuse of the system in just the same way as the guy you mention in your question. What the non-abusive author should do in this case is write a new answer. Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:32
  • @staticx see meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/265658/… Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:33
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    it may be that he does want to be first and appear to be The One who 'inspired' everyone else, so you create a blank answer; then fill it in and undelete. Some FGITW posters who skip the delete/undelete part get (non) answers flagged of DVed (then act coy about why, oh why the downvote???). Deleting while it is a work in progress prevents that. Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:35
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    @LightnessRacesinOrbit: So this could ensure a higher place if sorted by timestamp? What if you create a post with zero width spaces and essentially 'steal' the other answer which is right? Then you get higher upvotes because yours appears to be first and the other person looks like they stole your answer. After you undelete it. Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:38
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    But why edit the answer then delete it? Just delete it. The only reason to enter a minimal series of characters would be to create a placeholder.
    – SW4
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:41
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    @SW4: Right, that's what I am saying. It's a placeholder to ensure your spot in line. Then undelete it and it looks like the answer is older than it is. Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:41
  • @staticx - 100% agree
    – SW4
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:41
  • @SW4 you could have attempted to answer it, then deleted that and left an empty placeholder (as in meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/265658/…) this scenario is what this answer describes. Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:42
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    @SW4: I just tested it on an answer. The answer if it is deleted retains it's age. Once you undelete it, the age remains. Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:44
  • @BenjaminGruenbaum - you're right, although that tends to be for answers left deleted- but yes, valid point
    – SW4
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:49
  • Good reasoning, but any idea why he went for a second round? After undeleting, he proceeds to redelete and undelete again. Possibly, he had an extremely undecisive moment...
    – gitsitgo
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 20:29
  • This scenario is exactly what I did when deleted/undeleted my answers so far. No abuse! :) .. I'm pretty fine with an "undeleted at ..." timestamp.. Good answer and probably a good question (but never realized this as a problem myself)
    – hek2mgl
    Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 7:45
9

OP, if you looked at the exact timestamps in the revision history (which you should know you can do by hovering over them), you would see that the post was not deleted until a minute and a half after being posted, so it can't possibly have been a plot to game the system for rep. (In a minute and half, any empty placeholder answer would have already received downvotes.)

I looked at this user's last 300 answers (back to April 23). I found three cases where Arun temporarily deleted an answer while improving it ([1], [2], [3]). That's a good thing: it reduces the possibility of an incorrect answer causing confusion. There was no case where he had posted an empty answer initially, and no case where the deletion was instant, so I can't find any examples of the "abuse" you're claiming to have seen him do "often".

You claim to have seen "several others" do this "often" too, but you can't produce a single example of any of those. No-one else claims to have seen it either.

Most of all, it's unclear to me how you believe having an unvotable answer gets votes.

So -1 to your question for claiming abuse while having absolutely zero evidence, and for creating drama out of absolutely nothing.

5

I've occasionally posted an answer and then realized that it isn't correct enough (by some criterion or another) and have deleted it to prevent FGITW down-voting while I fix the problem I see (or that's pointed out to me; mostly, though, I think it is because I see the problem). Then when I'm satisfied with the amended answer, I'll undelete it. I don't usually nullify the original answer before deleting it (I don't think I've ever done that on an answer that is subsequently undeleted, but I've not formally checked to see).

I'd guess I've done this maybe 5-10 times in total, perhaps less; out of 8k+ answers,that's about 0.1%, which is not very often. I definitely don't do it for the reputation grabbing (I doubt if most of the answers got 10 upvotes, though again I've done no analysis). However, if 'avoiding downvotes' is reputation grabbing, then OK, I do it to avoid reputation loss (but it is to avoid loss rather than to increase reputation gain).

3

So you claim this is malicious and abuse and done in bad faith.

Have you investigated if this is a regular pattern in the guys posts? Because your claim doesn't make any sense if it's an isolated incident. The guy has 7400 answers, and I looked at a few and they had completely normal edit histories (aka no deletes/undeletes, which would always show up in /posts/id/revisions afaik).

If the one edit history that you found suspicious is complemented by lots of edit histories that show no gaming at all (and this form of gaming would always show up in the revision history), then you're probably just misinterpreting the what happened on this post.

If this is a regular pattern you should collect some more evidence for that. There should be many posts with a similar edit history (delete/undelete), if that's really how this user tries to assure a "good position" for his posts. You should investigate further to see if your claims of abuse have any substance.

If it's only an individual incident that you are misinterpreting from the limited information given in the revision history, then I don't think any prevention, mitigation or other action is necessary.

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    A 1 time abuse is still an abuse, just the consequences that aren't the same usually. Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 17:30
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    @JonathanDrapeau: But the revision history is not detailed enough to really conclude anything. The claimed abuse is mostly interpretation and guessing.
    – sth
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 17:31
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    I specifically said - "I'd really like to focus on fixing the problem rather than focusing on a specific instance". The reason I picked this user in the first place is exactly because they are a high reputation respected member of this community. I've seen this in lower rep users but a high rep user example is better because a) they're less susceptible to revenge downvotes b) they'll likely not take offense in this question because they know the system and c) will show this is not an isolated example only some low level newbie does. If anything I've picked that user out of respect. Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 17:35
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    @BenjaminGruenbaum: The revision history can be interpreted the way you do, but reality could also have been completely different. You can't really tell. So I don't see how this establishes that there is a problem that needs fixing. Maybe the real problem is that people tend to over-interpret the revision history.
    – sth
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 17:50
  • See my answer where I raise a reasonable scenario in which this revision history could happen legitimately. Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 18:02
  • How would you be able to see the revision history if it was done within the 5 minute window? Commented Jul 26, 2014 at 17:56
-18

The post, having been edited, will have a post revision history link on it.

If someone is upvoting a post solely because its timestamp is earlier than other timestamps, totally ignoring the fact that it has been revised in the interim, then they are utterly beyond help and nothing you do will fix their shoddy voting habits, whether the post was also deleted or not.

So I don't think you can "solve" the practical problems that this poses.

That being said, the author is clearly up to something and a stern word from a mod would seem to be in order. I'd simply flag it when you see it.

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    If someone is upvoting a post solely because its timestamp is earlier than other timestamps likely not- but if the questioner has answers sorted by time, and comes back to see the first one being a more fleshed out/better answer which works, they likely wont consider the others, despite the fact it was initially posted with ... as a placeholder
    – SW4
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:18
  • @SW4: If someone is going as far as to sort answers by time, then they are a lost cause as above (it shouldn't be an option, even). There is nothing you can do to stop them from thinking that voting based on post time is a good idea. Consequently it is also entirely irrelevant as to how "honest" the post author was with their post's timestamp. Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:19
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    Personally, if I come back to my question and see two nearly identical answers, I wouldn't accept the one that looks like a copy of the older one, I would accept the one which looks like the original. Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:20
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    @LightnessRacesinOrbit Time is the tiebreaker for posts with the same score.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:23
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    I don't look at revision history for every answer I vote on.
    – Andrew
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:23
  • @SantaClaus: If you vote on answers based on the time at which they were posted (don't), then checking the revision history is the least you can do. Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 15:24
  • @Servy as far as I'm aware it's actually sorted randomly, not based on time. Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 6:31
  • @LightnessRacesinOrbit I usually sort answers by timestamp if there are more then three. Thats because I want to be able to reload the page (to see new comments or stuff, or browse away from the question and then come back) and I don't want the sorting order to be changed. If it weren't possible I'd instantly make a feature-request. Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 8:07
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    @Qantas94Heavy Answers posted within just a few minutes of each other are sorted randomly. Answers more than a few minutes apart are sorted based on time.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 13:59
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    I disagree completely with your claim that voters should disregard timestamps. I absolutely do take them into account when voting on duplicate answers, sometimes to the point of downvoting perfectly correct and clear answers because they added nothing to the page that other answers hadn't already provided. Duplicate answers are valueless noise, and as such they are harmful - they waste the time and effort of people trying to extract information from the page, and reduce the chance that people in a rush will see other, non-duplicate answers. Reflecting all this in voting seems right to me.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 23:02
  • @Mark: "sometimes to the point of downvoting perfectly correct and clear answers because they added nothing to the page that other answers hadn't already provided." Oh dear oh deary me. Well at least we've discovered who it is that keeps on exercising utterly ridiculous voting patterns, leaving unwarranted anonymous downvotes and frankly pissing everyone off. That's an upside. Commented Jul 26, 2014 at 0:46
  • @LightnessRacesinOrbit You've made up the 'anonymous' bit, and it isn't true; barring an answer being obvious nonsense, I always comment to justify my downvotes (or upvote an existing comment).
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jul 26, 2014 at 9:21

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