213

So, going through the questions about the blog post, it's stirred an old question in me I've wanted to ask for a while. To be clear, I have been sitting on this question for a while, not quite motivated enough to ask it. The blog post may have spurred me to action, but this question is honestly relevant with or without it, in my meta experience.

In my days on Meta, I've noticed quite often that when newer users come to Meta, a number of them seem to take downvotes (even downvotes here, where no rep is lost) as insults or personal attacks. In fact, being downvoted on the main site and taking it personally tends to be part of their outrage, in my experience.

That has never, ever been the intention of the feature. Votes are intended to be quality control metrics/tools. We vote, or are supposed to vote, on the post in isolation. That means we should ignore other posts attached, for the most part, and we should ignore who asked/how much rep they have. We should also ignore the current score of the post.

We Meta Veterans know this is how downvotes on main work. I'm sure other veterans on the main site know this as well. So how do we make this more obvious for new users?

Let's keep in mind that we're unlikely to get them to read a wall of text. Let's also keep in mind that commenting on every new, downvoted post about what downvotes are for won't scale well. That might work on smaller sites, but it likely won't here.

So, what can we do or suggest for the team to do to help new users feel less attacked by a quality control metric? If we can make even one user a day feel that this is okay, and that they aren't being targetted, it will help.


Note: I don't think it's a good idea to require comments on downvotes. I also don't think limiting downvotes is a good idea- We need downvotes to help us control the quality of the site, after all!

I also think if we do something other than some sort of message, such as limiting of downvotes in some way, the same must be done to upvotes or we skew the scores of posts.


A few good examples of downvotes being perceived as insults have shown up in the comments below. I'd like to highlight those here just to help show where some of the pain points are:

You ask: "... that downvotes are not insults...." Really! Think not. It's what it is. Says "This is crap". No more, no less. - A 16k user

Sorry but have to disagree. Maybe that's how you see it as a downvoter - you're protecting site quality. But it doesn't change the message. It still says: "What you have posted here is crap. The work you have put into it is worthless" - The same 16k user

If an experienced user of the site finds that downvotes are insults, we are not doing this right. If a user with this much experience with the site sees them this way, the system needs tweaked, one way or another so that users don't feel like this over downvotes.

Hahahaha yes they are don't pretend it's help. Donwvote = "Your thing isn't worthy in my eyes" - how is that not an insult? - A <1k rep user

And here, a lower rep user also sees these as an insult. How can we fix this, without breaking the usefulness of downvotes?

1
  • 2
    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – user3956566
    Commented May 6, 2018 at 22:56

21 Answers 21

335

The only way that I know of that has any chance of succeeding is for the system to explain this to new users at the moment that it happens to them.

Your question just received a downvote, meaning that it likely doesn't meet our site's quality standards. Don't take this personally; it happens to almost everyone who visits the site for the first time. Our site is different from other forums; here are some tips to avoid downvotes in the future ...

And that's it.

We all know that the Help Center is hidden, that folks don't read it, and even if they do read it, it doesn't really explain the Q&A culture that we've tried to cultivate. That's why this sort of "just-in-time" education is so important.

34
  • 150
    This. We need this. Can we have in place tomorrow morning?
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:05
  • 1
    I was thinking about this option as I wrote the post, I just wasn't sure how to word it and not have a book- I like what you've posted here. I'm not sure where we'd give it to the user- an inbox message, a banner on their post, what have you. But I do think it would help.
    – Kendra
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:06
  • 9
    I've been thinking that a similar "just in time" notification message for the asker should be employed when rude/abusive comments are flagged/deleted under their question. Despite rapid "clean up" the damage is often done. It would help to call attention immediately to the fact that those comments were removed and why to the asker as a sort of apology and to reinforce to the asker that the community doesn't approve of that behavior.
    – joran
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:13
  • 3
    Having seen what happens on Meta, any canned response is immediately refuted, however intelligent. Nobody likes seeing -10 on their work. We don't downvote for the questioner, we downvote for other users. Let's just shield them from the score, the user will get (hopefully non-sarcy) comments and VTC recommendations to ease them into SO. The moment a user sees -10, they are often not in a state to take on positive criticism.
    – jpp
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:20
  • 4
    @yivi: You could have a thing where your own questions/answers clamp the displayed score to -1, but a privilege at (say) 125 rep that shows the true score. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:27
  • 1
    @jpp. There are problems with that. You are only "shielded" as long are you are logged in. There will be a discrepancy with reputation and posts score (prompting more questions about "where did my points go!?!?"). You would need to hide the votes from the reputation tab. Etc.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:27
  • 1
    @yivi, For a new user (you can't get less than 1 rep), it doesn't matter. Shielding is also done in elections. The discrepancy is a small price to pay. Everyone is saying the same thing: the DV isn't for the poster, it's for other users. For new users, make it explicit by only showing it to other users.
    – jpp
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:29
  • 2
    @yivi, Fair point, it needs thought. But my hunch is <101 users aren't yet serious about rep. They care more about getting their answers and not feeling insulted.
    – jpp
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:36
  • 13
    In my experience, the only people who care enough about their rep to make their complaints of downvotes about the rep are people who don't make quality contributions in the first place, and see value only in the number next to their name. Most other people who get upset about downvotes are more concerned about the fact that lower scores mean their answers getting sorted lower, questions becoming less visible on the front page, etc. Much less egregious concerns than "muh repz" I would think.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:45
  • 4
  • 13
    @enderland: Given the renewed impetus for kindness, perhaps it will get some traction this time.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 16:42
  • 6
    @enderland The huge difference here is “auto-generated comment“ vs “banner/popup/message only the user can see”. Similar to the one you get when you get some close votes.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 16:48
  • 2
    @ChrisCirefice: I deliberately avoided more specific wording to prevent language lawyering. The phrase is only meant to say "we're different," and to suggest that "this isn't your grandfather's forum," not to put a fine point on the definition of "forum" per se.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:00
  • 2
    @Robert Harvey: This is one of the biggest reasons why talking to people on meta is so incredibly frustrating.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 3:27
  • 6
    The bonus of an auto comment of sorts is no particular user becomes the target of abuse. It's a clear message coming from the site. If you're in agreement, you can add that logic to your answer.
    – user3956566
    Commented May 6, 2018 at 22:59
166

Replace a negative score or highly downvoted post with a big ! if you have less than a certain rep.

Negative score replace with a red exclamation mark

This should connote 'Something went wrong'; this is irrespective of if you've done goofed your question, or people are just in a bad mood today. This feels better than what must feel like "Ten people don't like you", when you get -10.

Yes, this is hiding info from new users

Sometimes less is more. It's more effective to say "Stop, something needs adressing." than "This is the exact amount people think you're wrong by". A post with -1 needs to be fixed just like a post at -100 - experienced users know this, but new users might be put off.

This is someone saying "I politely disagree" and not "OMG you're so wrong, look at how wrong you are". Which matters when you're new.

Perhaps let them click to show score or hover to show the score perhaps. Clicking might reveal some advice, now we've drawn their attention to the issue:

modal dialog giving some explanation for the exclamation mark, and links to further help

Perhaps this would only be on your own posts (under a certain reputation), so you can see others downvoted questions. Or it would be on all of them until you gain some privilege (based on rep).

I don't know what details would work best.

But it should work to soften the blow, and ease them into the idea that negative scores are bad, but not personal.

17
  • 3
    This would just encourage pileon downvotes even more.
    – enderland
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 16:33
  • 16
    @enderland how so? We set the ability to see downvotes below the threshold to cast them. Then anyone who can cast them can see the effect. Once you can see it nothing else happens. Also, I don't think -1 needs any less attention than -100, so you don't lose anything really. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 16:36
  • Because there are a lot of automatic system tools which trigger on only certain downvote thresholds and right now, people don't need to downvote past that. But if there's not a clear number of downvotes, I guess I'll just DV every question which needs it regardless of how many DVs it has. For example, a question at -4 doesn't get a DV from me. But the same question at -4 (hidden!) will.
    – enderland
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 16:39
  • 8
    @enderland I assumed as the question was about new users, it would be assumed this is only for users under a certain amount of reputation. I've tried to clarify. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 16:45
  • 80
    +1 from me. I really think regulars underestimate what many new users go through emotionally. As soon as they see -5 or -10, they not only fail to take on good advice, but they start asking wrong questions, e.g. Why am I being attacked by a group of SO vigilantes? Why aren't I accepted on SO? We then feed them a stream of canned responses with a bit of tailoring, which in turn causes more resentment (usually because someone makes a sarcy comment which gets 10+ upvotes from regulars).
    – jpp
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 17:03
  • @jpp good point on the 'wrong questions', let preempt that. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 17:06
  • 10
    This is a very good and concrete proposition! There should be an associated privilege "see the negative scores" at 50 or 100 reputation.
    – Boiethios
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:09
  • 3
    +1 I like this idea quite a bit. I've always been skeptical of the suggestion to put a "threshold" on the number of downvotes a new user can see because I think it could be very discouraging. Imagine if your question has a score of -10, but because of the threshold it's displayed to you as -2. You do your best to improve your question, and 8 people undo their downvotes, so your post is now at -2. But to you it looks like nothing changed and your efforts were wasted. This suggestion bypasses that problem by not displaying the score at all, so you never think "All my efforts had no effect".
    – Aran-Fey
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 19:08
  • 4
    (cont'd) Ideally, I would like to see an encouraging message displayed to the OP after they edited their post and some of the downvotes or close votes were undone. Something that lets them know that the effort they put into improving their question is a step in the right direction, even if it wasn't enough to get the score back into the positives or the close votes back to 0.
    – Aran-Fey
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 19:17
  • 3
    I'm concerned that new users that saw this wouldn't actually do anything with their question. They'd see "Your post may need to be changed" and think "No thanks, I'm good, my post is exactly how I want it" and sit there wondering why no one is answering their question. When people see downvotes, they instinctively know that someone else has personally downvoted their question. Then they either get upset and feel personally attacked or they realise several people think there's something wrong and they fix their question. So yeah... I think this suggestion creates an entirely new problem.
    – Clonkex
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 5:32
  • 1
    @Clonkex thats a great point, thanks for raising it. I think it hinges on the pop up message being helpful. At the least it should direct you to the help page and "If you disagree, do X" where X is useful. Commented May 2, 2018 at 8:40
  • @Clonkex A proper message/UI, with possibly progressively more urgency, could probably alleviate the problem to a certain degree. I'd like to think it's a trade-off, and at the very least worth experimenting with
    – Passer By
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 10:14
  • 6
    @ElysianFields You aren't supposed to vote based on the current score of the post... so maybe this feature would assist you! Commented May 2, 2018 at 16:56
  • 2
    I would like to see this at least tested before we commit to it. I don't know that this will help with new users that don't babysit their questions. But then again, I have no idea how to help users that don't monitor their questions.
    – zero298
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 17:27
  • 9
    This is what I was going for with meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/365526/…, but ! is way better than −1.
    – Ry- Mod
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 1:45
115

I'm an old, high-rep user, and getting downvotes still hurts a bit. Not much, but still.

The problem is that downvotes don't give direct, useful feedback. They basically mean:

Someone did not think your post is useful, but we won't tell you why. [Here](help center) is a long, generic list of potential reasons. You should read through them and try to guess which ones apply to your post.

That's frustrating, and adding a "please don't be frustrated by the downvote" explanation won't change that.

Close votes are better, because they have direct, useful feedback attached to them: You did not provide an MCVE, you question does not fit the scope of the site, your question is too generic, etc. This is helpful.

One option would be to have a similar system for downvotes: Allow (not require) the downvoter to give anonymous feedback by choosing one of the most common downvote reasons (e.g. this answer (a) is incorrect, (b) provides no explanation, (c) cites no sources, (d) is hard to read, ...) and a free-text option.

Of course, the details would need to be fleshed out, and it won't be as simple as it sounds at a first glance (Who sees these downvote reasons? Can they be flagged? Etc.). This has been discussed before (thanks Kendra for the link):

My main point is: As long as downvotes just mean "I did not like your post", people will take them personally, not matter how much "generic explanation and advice" we put on top of it.

13
  • 11
    Related, and a post I totally hope they revisit in the wake of all this: Enable Optional Anonymous Reasons for Downvotes on Questions
    – Kendra
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:18
  • @Kendra: Brilliant, thanks for the link! I've added it to the question.
    – Heinzi
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:21
  • 9
    Downvotes don't mean "I don't like your post". It means "this post is not worth your time". The "your" in the second part is directed at everyone else who might be looking at that question. Voting is not for the poster; it's for everyone else. Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:22
  • 12
    @NicolBolas: I see what you mean, but that's does not make a difference for the poster (which is what this question is about). If someone stands next to you and says "I don't think listening to Nicol Bolas' opinion on this issue is worth your time" to a third person, I'm pretty sure it would hurt just as much as if the comment were directed at you directly.
    – Heinzi
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:25
  • 4
    @Heinzi: That's why I think it is a fool's errand to try to reduce the impact of voting. Voting is a vital part of maintaining the site's quality. Once you start "optionally" tying reasons to downvotes (but not upvotes, of course), sooner-or-later it will become "mandatory". That will reduce the quantity of downvotes and such. Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:27
  • The link Kendra added with optional, anonymous downvote reasons (separate from close reasons) would be a god way to encourage downvoters to explain their motivatons.
    – xxbbcc
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:31
  • 3
    @xxbbcc How about a way for us mere mortals? (Sorry, I just thought your "god way" typo was funny!) Commented May 1, 2018 at 19:38
  • 2
    If this "anonymous feedback" feature were implemented as an option, it might be even better to make "downvote without feedback" as a rep-privilege (somewhere between 125 (threshold for site downvotes) and 500 rep, maybe). Commented May 1, 2018 at 19:39
  • 1
    @KyleStrand Oh, lol, I haven't noticed. :)
    – xxbbcc
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 2:11
  • While I always liked the anonymous downvotes comment idea... It does beg the question about tipping the scale ever so slightly towards upvotes being easier to cast (I know the privileges unlock at different rep thresholds.. Not a fan of that either). It definitely would help in making this site feel more welcoming... Assuming OPs are willing to listen, which remains to be proven sometimes... But then again maybe I let the couple of very bad receptions I got taint my memory and make me forget the (potentially) way more numerous good or neutral receptions.... Who knows. Worth a try at least.
    – Patrice
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 23:23
  • 7
    @Patrice: FWIW, a decent fraction of users with the downvote privilege avoid using it because it feels unfriendly, so improving that perception may actually increase downvotes. Commented May 3, 2018 at 22:56
  • 1
    @NathanTuggy that is a fair point that I can't say I have considered
    – Patrice
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 23:01
  • 3
    @Heinzi, I appreciate this post on your part. Not long ago I got a downvote I misunderstood. I tried to address it here and instead got a biblical stones throw of downvotes, you know where they pelt you with stones for being a sinner, both on Meta and someone thought it kind to link the SO post I was asking about so that people could go on there and downvote it just to hurt some more. I did not take down that SO vote regardless until I realized that no one in the future could find it useful. Its shameful things like this why so many colleagues refuse to participate in Stack Overflow.
    – Daniel
    Commented Aug 30, 2019 at 6:52
43

This is a psychology problem, not a technical problem, not a UI design problem, or a user experience design problem.

There is no technical/design solution to the problem other than just not allowing downvotes, close votes or delete votes.

Not matter how politely or kindly you tell someone, "Stop internalizing anonymous strangers clicking on an arrow on the Internet as a personal attack on you." They are not going to listen, anymore than telling someone that is upset to "calm down", which we all know is the least productive thing you can say to someone that is upset. I think the more kindly, politely you word it the less it will mean and the more they will ignore it.

There is empirical evidence that downvotes and actual productive comments on what to specifically to do to change a question to make it answerable are ignored and never acted on.

I ran some queries a few years ago on this and it was extremely disappointing to see the pitiful statistics based on questions that were closed and edited afterwards. Much less the ones that got reopened.

I have proposed a few things that would indirectly make new users more successful.

Maybe they need to be reconsidered.

  1. Probationary period for Questions to be Answered to encourage better questions with more effective Moderation?

If the questions never get published they will never get voted on by the masses and never get comments that might hurt someones feelings.

  1. More effective closing / downvoting of junk questions to help with the signal-noise ratio?

These numbers were so devastating that I am not even interested in running them now, last time I looked they had just gotten worse.

while(true) { morale--; }

My motivation to help moderate has dropped to pretty much 0 with this latest blog post. Casual reviews of all the meta posts about this subject show an almost 50/50 split on the opinions of the blog post.

I am with the 50% that thinks it is completely tone deaf and disrespectful of all the people that have donated their time to make the site what it is today.

The last couple of lines that said, hey all you experienced community members, by the way, you are all bigots and haters and just do not realize it, take this BS personality test that has proven to be less than useless to know why. And by the way again, if you think you are not a automaton bigot, you are one of the worst offenders pretty much turned me off for good probably.

That last bit was the last nail in the coffin for me. I have not answered any questions in volume in years, mainly because 99.9999999999999999% of all the questions to be asked have been, hundreds if not thousands of times and there is nothing more for me to add unless the question is extremely niche and about something brand new that is not very well documented. Which is rare, so I do what I can to clean up the trash, just to get dumped on for caring and donating my time.

Well thanks, I now know my and others efforts are not appreciated, actually not wanted, so I am taking a hiatus from contributing to anything other than reading meta for the schadenfreude to watch the main site succumb to entropy faster than it should.

8
  • 9
    Your effort is definitely appreciated. But some of the results have unfortunately crossed the line into rudeness, which we've discussed before. Perhaps a break would be mutually beneficial; it's easy to get too close to a problem if it's all you see every day.
    – Michael Myers Mod
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 19:53
  • Does your statistical analysis factor into account the fact that some people have been run off the site and create disposable accounts whenever they want to ask a question? I've seen some meta posts discussing that phenomenon, and it's certainly a valid way to try to use the site if you can't circumnavigate bans and SO-specific culture. Valid meaning that many user might be inclined to use that method, not valid as in "supported by policy". I ask because I don't think it can be measured. Commented May 3, 2018 at 2:29
  • 6
    @YetAnotherRandomUser: I'm not sure "disposable accounts", "valid way to try to use the site", and "bans" belong together. (To be blunt, that's ban evasion, and not valid at all.) Commented May 3, 2018 at 22:51
  • 2
    I was very torn on voting on this. I could happily upvote some of it and down vote the rest. The first three paragraphs seem good, but the rest gets rather ranty, I'm afraid. So I ended up not voting on it.
    – Rory Alsop
    Commented May 9, 2018 at 9:21
  • I don't understand why several other answers offering essentially the same explanation - "users will perceive downvotes as an insult no matter what you tell them" were downvoted, but this one was upvoted. Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 14:40
  • @KarlKnechtel What other answers? There does seem to be a different sentiment here, in that it does not validate that perception. There is also a proposal towards stronger curation, that others seem to exclude.
    – E_net4
    Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 18:30
  • @E_net4 For example, Steve Summit's and Support Ukraine's. Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 20:17
  • @KarlKnechtel There is a great difference between acknowledging that people perceive downvotes as insulting and attributing that to human nature, and just saying "downvotes are seen as insulting because they are", thus validating that sentiment. So the difference is that people choosing to continue to take downvotes personally are more likely to get their answers here downvoted.
    – E_net4
    Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 22:06
20

This is not an easy problem to fix - people are naturally very attached to the content they produce, and they see an attack on their content as an attack on them (which it kind of is - good luck calling a meal bad without offending the chef who made it). It's more something any given person needs to learn to accept through time and experience than something you can just fix with a few words. I'm sure many or most experienced users are still at least a little hurt by a downvote.

This is also not an easy problem to fix because there doesn't seem to be a good way to incorporate this information into the UI.


One thing that might help is to focus on rules - to try to change the perspective from "this is bad" to "this is against the rules".

A short Help Center page on what (down)votes mean is probably the first thing we'll need (again, focusing on rules). There is Why is voting important and the harder-to-find Vote Down Privilege, but neither of those quite hit the spot, and there may be Meta posts, but it should ideally be more official than that.

That alone probably isn't enough, but I'm not sure what comes after that. Two options that come to mind:

  • A question mark next to the upvote and downvote buttons that points there, but that seems a bit clunky.
  • A question-mark button somewhere that explains whatever you click on, but that's maybe a bit too old-school (so people may have some difficulty figuring out how that works, or that it even exists).
13
  • 4
    I actually really like your last option- The question-mark button that explains what you click on. It might be old-school, but it might also help a lot of people learn a lot about the site, and it would have more uses than just this! The problem will just be making sure it isn't confused with the help center button, but I'm sure the team can do that. :)
    – Kendra
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 14:52
  • 8
    "good luck calling a meal bad without offending the chef who made it" We are all Chef Ramsay on this delectable day.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:01
  • 2
    How about shielding new users from seeing negative votes on their questions? In my experience, new users learn very little from seeing -10 on their questions; as mentioned, social media conditions us to "Like" or ignore. Users get angry, frustrated, complain on Meta, face sarcy comments. They aren't in a state to read explanations. This doesn't stop them from coming back either, the cycle continues.
    – jpp
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:07
  • @jpp I think that's been suggested in the past, but IIRC, we do something similar in elections- Instead of showing how negative a candidate is in the primary, we don't show lower than -1. It's an idea worth re-hasing again, but I don't know how people will feel about it.
    – Kendra
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:11
  • 4
    @jpp A secondary purpose to downvotes is to inform the author that their post is problematic, specifically so that they know that they need to improve it, or at a minimum, avoid making similar mistakes in the future. Not telling the author that their question was bad is easier, because they don't get upset, but then they have no opportunity to correct their behavior (in that instance or in the future). Yes, some people are so bad that they will continue doing bad things even when they know it's bad, but not everyone will, so informing those who are open to improving is still important.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 17:08
  • @Servy, In your experience on SO / Meta, do you often see someone get -5 votes, complain about it, get some good advice, update their question, and then get good answers? Even with specific advice, I see arguments enfold which should never have started. They almost always start with "why am I downvoted?" Maybe I'm looking at the wrong examples.
    – jpp
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 17:15
  • 2
    @jpp The second they complain about it, no, I treat any post as a lost cause for improvement the second the author complains about downvotes on it. If you skip that step, sure. It's not the norm, but it happens. I'd guess it's in the single digit percentage of bad questions but with how many questions get asked on the site, that's a lot of questions. It's also not easy to quantify how many people don't repeat their mistakes after a bad question gets a poor reception, and who make an effort to improve future questions, which I expect is more common.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 17:20
  • @Servy, Not sure if you've seen this, but there's evidence to suggest that downvoting decreases future quality from a "downvoted user" and encourages them to post more frequently.
    – jpp
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 17:26
  • 4
    @jpp That's not controlling for very relevant factors. Someone who's first question merits downvotes is more likely to have a lower quality question when asking a second question than someone who's first question merited an upvote. Yes, some improve, but they don't all improve instantly. You'd need to control for quality of the posts, and randomly vote on them, in order to determine if it was the vote causing them to post lower quality content in the future.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 17:34
  • 1
    As for them posting more, someone who got an answer to their (good) question is more likely to not need to ask another one that someone who didn't get an answer to their question. So in both of these cases you're assuming causation merely because of a correlation, and it's unlikely that the vote is a significant contributor to the result.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 17:34
  • 1
    I think the :( experience starts with seeing a minus sign. Can we show something positive, but that still encourages the new user through the learning curve of how to ask quality questions? Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 18:15
  • 1
    @jinglesthula: a single + for a negative number of votes and ++ for a positive number. Everybody feels good, but we know what it means!
    – Jongware
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 18:24
  • @usr2564301 heh, yeah, I thought about joking about just removing the sign so all votes are upvotes! "Everybody's a winner!" :) Really, though I mean something that creates a positive experience (see my answer). Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 18:50
16

I think that there is an easy solution to this that was rejected by Stack Exchange.

Ultimately I think it's really easy. Right now, there's no communication to a user when:

  • A downvote happens (no rep notification)
  • Your question receives a close vote (unless it generates a comment)

Automatically adding some sort of comment (or hell, notification to the user) when their question receives X downvotes would solve this problem 99% of the time.

Let's keep in mind that we're unlikely to get them to read a wall of text.

Maybe it's just me but I have a hard time caring when someone won't bother to read an explanation to "why did you get downvoted?" type of insight and then gets annoyed/irritated.

The goal should be:

  1. Inform new users what downvotes mean
  2. Provide them information to understand what a downvote means
  3. Give them a way to interact with this (so a comment might be useful) and allow those that actually care enough to engage, which is not even close to all, a way to interact with the community

An autogenerated comment solves all these problems.

5
  • Don't most (first) close votes generate a comment? Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 18:11
  • 1
    @PeterMortensen IIRC, only "duplicate" and "other" close votes generate a comment... Which could also be fixed, IMO.
    – Kendra
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 18:11
  • @PeterMortensen no, not all of them. Just duplicate I believe.
    – enderland
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 18:11
  • @ElysianFields OffTopic/Other (freeform) also does as Kendra noted Commented May 2, 2018 at 17:00
  • @enderland, thanks, I agree a downvote with some understanding of why would be helpful. Otherwise, its like okay I got a downvote, now I have to go on Meta and ask why, (like I did several weeks ago) and risk just getting machined gunned with downvotes because it gets interpreted as complaining about a downvote. No, I just wanted to know the specific reason for the specific downvote, since I did not see how it fit any of the criteria.
    – Daniel
    Commented Aug 30, 2019 at 7:11
8

Can we make it more obvious to new users that downvotes on the main site are not insults and in fact can help them help themselves?

I doubt downvotes immediately help them help themselves. Downvotes mostly help others avoiding these questions. If you think about helping them to help themselves I would rather concentrate on leaving a more specific comment about what is wrong or upvote an already existing comment.

Also, while they are probably not insults, they are a rather point-blank assessment of quality. Not all people like to lose their face so easily.

One way could be to dissociate more the score from the author. So maybe stop displaying author names directly (it doesn't matter anyway what the name of the questioner or answerer is), for example by hiding it one link away like the edit history.

Another would be to have a special period for new users at the beginning (say the first three months) where their questions get special protection (lower visibility to slow things down, no downvoting without comment, keeping privileges, ...).

Making content of the help center visible actually might also go a long way.

Anyway, the least thing one can do is saying it at least once. So I guess that an info button at the first negative score change should really be included.

One last thing:

... and we should ignore who asked/how much rep they have. We should also ignore the current score of the post.

If this is true, why are we displaying all this information then so prominently?

13
  • If we make a, "new user" section, all it's going to do is make the introduction to real SE that much rougher. We'll run into this exact same problem, only worse, because users are already here.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 13:06
  • @fbueckert But the users should have learned a bit about SE by then, so the transition might be smoother, at least that would be the hope. What would be gained by treating them so rough from day zero that 90% run away again? My gut feeling is that a time-limited compromise between quality and kindness would work best. Commented May 3, 2018 at 13:13
  • I don't think it'd work that well at all; we'll just get people wanting SE proper to work like SE newbie land. How many experts would we get to service this new area? No one's going to want to be there, because it's going to be objectively worse quality.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 13:16
  • @fbueckert My impression is that there are still many users available, ready to answer even low quality questions. Also I didn't think about separating SE proper land from SE newbie land, more like equipping SE newbies with the special coat or helmet of protection, which protects them somewhat while going around in SE proper land. The effect would wear off with time but no real separation between here and there. By the time the protection gear wears off, they know how to behave. That would be the idea. Commented May 3, 2018 at 13:56
  • That protection is part of the problem; it creates a different set of rules and constraints for them. Ones they won't want to give up. If we treat new users differently, it doesn't really matter whether it's system enforced or not, we're dividing the site into two different areas. I don't think we'd get nearly the same amount of expertise going on when proper quality curation can't happen.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 14:00
  • @fbueckert There are already different set of rules and constraints depending on your rep. I don't think that different rulesets are problematic per se as long as they are not permanent. My main angle is that SE is something you have to learn, so you should be given the time to learn it. Just think about that some of the future top programmers may have started their career with really crappy questions. You don't want to lose them early in the process. Of course I don't know that, it's just a possibility. Commented May 3, 2018 at 14:25
  • 1
    The same rules apply to everyone, at every rep. Care to give an example where it doesn't? There are different privileges, but that's an expansion of a user's curation capabilities, not changing the rules on them.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 14:26
  • @fbueckert Example: <2k rep you cannot edit questions or answers, above you can. Probably you mean something different by "rules" than me. Commented May 3, 2018 at 14:28
  • I guess when I say, "rules", I mean, "quality standards". We expect every user, new, old, mod, dead, and undead, to conform to those same standards. About the only ones that are immune are SE employees themselves, and that's a rather sparing usage, hopefully.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 14:40
  • @fbueckert I see your point. To summarize: You say that initially lower quality standards would lead to new users refusing an increased quality standard later on and that knowledgeable users would not answer questions of users subject to a lower quality standard. I say that new users subject to a temporarily lowered quality standard would find it easier to adapt and would be more successful later. All of these things can be tested. We could do that first and then decide what kind of compromise we want. Commented May 3, 2018 at 15:42
  • I'm willing to test, within reason. But I'm not holding out hope that it will accomplish the mission. As is, we get a ton of new users that don't care, and giving them this protection would be actively harmful to site health.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 15:44
  • @fbueckert One could say that military bootcamp style is the best approach with lots of pressure and lots of downvoting and super high quality standards, or maybe the elementary school approach with lots of hands holding and lower quality standards and lots of "it's not your fault". Or maybe something in the middle or maybe a bit less strict in the beginning and with higher quality standards later on. I don't know what is the best. It may be Stack Overflow is currently trapped in a local optimum and we all know how difficult it is to get out of a state where everything works more or less. Commented May 3, 2018 at 20:25
  • @Trilarion, beautiful post. Thank you for this, I hope people understand what you are saying and come around.
    – Daniel
    Commented Aug 30, 2019 at 7:22
5

It doesn't matter how you gild it: a vote count is a score, and the score (aka "reputation") is accumulated to gain rewards like bling and privileges. That is gamification, and SO does it well.

You get a downvote, your score goes down, and you react instinctively. The thing that immediately draws your eye after the question title is that to the left of every question and answer is a really big number and two arrows. The score is everywhere.

The problem isn't mitigating the perception of the score; the problem is the score itself being such a central and visible feature in the first place.

2
  • 2
    From the OP: "So, what can we do or suggest for the team to do to help new users feel less attacked by a quality control metric?" One could infer from your answer that you want to deemphasize the score on the site, but as you say, gamification is central to the site. How would you suggest doing this? Commented Nov 19, 2019 at 18:21
  • 1
    At the risk of being glib ... make it less central? For example, not showing reputation right next to one's avatar, making the vote count smaller and lerss hilighted by not even showing the buttons except on mouseover ... But at the risk of being pessimistic, I'm not sure de-gamification will ever work for SO or be accepted by the culture. Commented Nov 20, 2019 at 0:58
1

It's been mentioned to perhaps hide your own question scores (or at least negative ones) until you have a certain amount of rep. I see pros and cons.

If what we're looking for is making new people feel welcome, why not (rather than simply hiding information), replace the negative score with community provided feedback (which is incentivized by SO to be very welcoming, friendly, and helpful) on how to improve the question.

This would place a burden on those casting downvotes to be helpful to the unseasoned newcomers. I know this isn't something that would be eagerly welcomed by those of us who do cast downvotes with the primary motive of quality, and are worried about the volume of low quality questions. And I don't know that this would be practical. So I'm not suggesting it as a finished solution - just putting it out there to spark thought and discussion on outside-the-box ways on how to welcome new folks.

edit: A few more thoughts. In a real-life situation, what would you tell someone who'd asked a group a question? You probably wouldn't silently shake your head and then switch your attention to other things. You'd probably have most people remain silent while one or a few politely offered suggestions or asked further questions to clarify. But here we sort of expect the question to not be a dialog, but a finished product given by the OP.

What if instead of Up/Down "votes" we had upvotes (which indicates you found the question or answer valuable/helpful) and suggestions for improvement or clarifications. Above a certain rep, sure, show the downvotes. Below a certain rep, "downvoters" are able to offer a suggestion for improving or clarifying the question, or to ask follow-up questions. I love the idea of "21 users thought this needs improvement. 5 of them offered these suggestions". Perhaps even better would be "Several users thought... 5 of them offered...".

Once the question is edited to a high enough quality it can have all "downvotes" removed and be bumped. I'd even say that low-rep low quality (net up/down score) questions have the number of downvotes hidden from all users (perhaps unless you're above a certain rep).

10
  • 3
    If you were a new asker and had just typed up a rather poor question as your first post, what kind of experience over the next 5min, 2h, or 1day would make you feel most welcomed? Can we practically implement such an experience? Hashtag empathy. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 17:46
  • 2
    And we could still make the downvotes visible. But what if it was something like "We're glad you're here. 14 people think this question can be better. 5 of them gave this helpful advice on how to improve it. Please take a few minutes and see if you can help us help you better." Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 17:50
  • 2
    Are there real-life analogues we can emulate? In a physical classroom discussion, if someone asks a "total newbie" question or struggles to articulate it, how does a healthy group intuitively assist the new person? It's so easy when writing software to think about the code and the UI. Maybe we entirely forget about SO and discuss it that way. (Like in Searching for Bobby Fischer, where the teacher tosses the pieces away so the the problem is easier to understand.) Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 17:52
  • Is the language itself saying what we want it to? "Downvote" is a difficult pig to put a sufficient amount of lipstick on. :) Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 17:58
  • 1
    don't sell yourself short, you are on the right track. Awesome suggestion.how does a healthy group intuitively assist the new person? Exactly, definitely not by dealing with a person asking why they got a downvote by machine gunning them with more downvotes and bitterly laced commentary that wraps around that one person who took the high road and answered the question. That is whats really bringing SO down where many colleagues I speak with will not bother with this site, I am always having to promote its good points.
    – Daniel
    Commented Aug 30, 2019 at 7:16
  • 1
    No. Mandatory reasons with downvotes are a bad idea
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 30, 2019 at 14:47
  • 1
    The fact is, we're asking how we can make for a positive experience for new (and experienced) users. But we had people a tool for negativity. We do so to curate quality questions. But it's still a tool for negativity. Why not make a tool for positivity and helpfulness that functions similarly under the hood, but is presented in positive terms to the new user. Commented Aug 30, 2019 at 14:50
  • @Cerbrus ah, right. I tweaked my answer to say "able" rather than "required". I think such suggestions would be served better as being separate from regular comments on the question. Commented Aug 30, 2019 at 14:53
  • Frankly, even community provided feedback can be misinterpreted by unreasonable users as a personal attack. I guess we can't have the cake and eat it too.
    – E_net4
    Commented Aug 30, 2019 at 17:41
  • @E_net4 hopefully any approach taken will make the site encouraging for all reasonable users. It may not end up being worth it to try accommodate unreasonable users (who are hopefully a small minority and without whom the site may very well be a healthier overall place). We can have and eat the reasonable cake :) Commented Sep 3, 2019 at 15:06
0

Isn't this issue that a downvote is ambiguous?

Maybe the downvote button could be replaced with more than one option. A button to vote that the question/answer:

  • is unclear.
  • is too broad.
  • is opinion based.

You could argue that any user can do this with a downvote+flag but in reality, not many people do this. Having one action to essentially do a downvote+flag ensures that people are downvoting for a reason.

You could also argue that we would need more buttons but IMO they are the only three that you need. All other flagging options (spam, rude, duplicate) IMO are more severe and indicate that the user is probably lazy / a bot / not nice, which are deserving of a flag.

4
  • 3
    Duplicates are less severe than any of the other close options. Commented May 3, 2018 at 22:29
  • Yes, a downvote can mean many different things. It could still be a single thing, but with the option to be able to provide more information, like the one you listed. Commented Nov 19, 2019 at 19:36
  • 1
    The proposed downvote reason categories, per the popup, are "not clear", "not researched" and "not useful". If something is unclear that is explicitly a reason for closure. If it's not researched then either that directly causes a close-worthy problem (most commonly, "needs more focus" or "needs debugging details"), or else should not be a reason to downvote (as many of the best, most popular, most important questions on the site concern trivial matters). If it's "not useful" then that is inherently saying that it should be closed. Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 14:35
  • So I endorse the general approach described here. After years of duking it out with other Meta regulars, I continue not to see any reason why any question should ever be downvoted but not also given a vote/flag to close. At least, not according to the downvote reasons in the popup. The purpose of the site is to build a high-quality library; high quality answers require high quality questions. Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 14:37
-1

Reduce the damage of downvotes to new users

Downvotes aren't just an emotional problem for new users, but a potentially functional problem as rep loss can cause loss of the most basic privileges that make this site tolerable.

From "Help Center > Privileges":

Rep  Privilege
  1  create posts
  5  participate in meta
 10  create wiki posts
 10  remove new user restrictions
 15  vote up
 15  flag posts
 20  talk in chat
 50  comment everywhere

A reasonable solution might be to make it harder to lose some of the most basic privileges.

For example, perhaps the privileges up to 50 rep stick?

3
  • 1
    Not to be obtuse, but "[1] create posts" is not a privilege that can be lost by losing reputation. Meta participation isn't particularly useful for new users (since anyone can ask about their own post). Creating wiki posts is useless. Other than chat and removal of image/link restrictions, the rest are all essentially moderation-focused privileges, which a user struggling with downvotes doesn't much need and probably can't use correctly anyway. Commented May 3, 2018 at 22:35
  • 1
    @NathanTuggy Yeah, the quoted list was meant to be complete rather than imply that they're all important. The ask-about-own-post feature definitely helps mitigate part of the problem. Comments can be nice because a new user who wants to earn rep through answering questions (rather than asking them) can ask for clarification from other askers. Then new-user restrictions and being able to ask informal questions in chat can be helpful, while general Meta posts/questions aren't impossible.
    – Nat
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 22:49
  • 1
    Not to say that these are necessarily unmanageable issues, but rather that, if users are already feeling unwelcomed by downvotes and whatnot, stripping them of basic site features that they've already earned due to downvotes would seem to compound the problem.
    – Nat
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 22:51
-5

New users are very sensitive to downvotes, because small losses of reputation points cause them to quickly lose privileges like the ability to ask questions. Even if it is not intended as such, this feels like punishment.

Having said that, how could it not be intended as punishment? It's saying "this person was given this privilege, make mistakes and as a result we are taking it away." Worse still, the judgement is by peers who often give no indication of why they downvoted, making the whole situation seem unfair and Kafkaesque.

To solve this greater transparency would help. For example, require a reason for downvotes to be given and displayed. Even better would be for experienced users to be less trigger-happy with the downvotes and try instead to improve or simply close questions if they are beyond fixing.

2
  • 7
    This doesn't scale in any sense. The number of low quality questions far outweighs the number of people curating. I know I'd rather focus on a good question and make it better, than try to help someone who's demonstrated zero effort to fix it themselves.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 11:47
  • 2
    It takes usually at least an order of magnitude less time to downvote than to edit a question that's poorly-worded. Many downvotes are accompanied with close-votes or -flags. (But closed questions also count against the q-ban.) Commented May 3, 2018 at 22:28
-7

Yes, we can and should make it more obvious to new users.

We can make it more obvious by hiding negative scores on their questions from them. Seeing scores on your question can be a privilege earned at some level. This could be 125, it could be 1000.

Votes are primarily used to indicate good material to other users. In my experience, a negative score very rarely helps a questioner improve their question or perform the required research. Comments and Closure advice are used for these purposes.

I could not find this suggestion elsewhere on Meta, I hope it exists. There is one post:

Hide a question's real score from users for some time so that they can't tell that it has downvotes

However, the above seems to imply that a questions score is hidden from everyone. But that's not what I'm suggesting. Yes, it can be gamed (sign out; check your reputation tab). But there is a huge psychological barrier to overcome for a new user to see -5 or -10 on their post. To the extent that I believe any canned message, however intelligent and well-meaning, will often be refuted.

And if a new user cares more about seeing negative rep on their rep tab than getting their question answered, it's highly likely they will never perform the requisite steps to improve their question.

We want new users to ask themselves: Why is my question unclear?

Rather than ask us: Why are you downvoting me?

Getting users to ask the right question to the right person is the solution.

13
  • 10
    Personally, I think that we need to inform better, not less.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 16:06
  • @yivi, I see roundabout discussions again and again on Meta. No amount of educating can solve this. But it's my opinion. We want users to ask Why is my question unclear?, not Why am I downvoted? The second question is loaded (whether we like it or not).
    – jpp
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 16:10
  • 3
    "We want new users to ask themselves: Why is my question unclear?" No, we want new users to ask themselves "What can I do to improve this post?" We want them to ask this regardless of post type, and regardless of author. We want veteran and regular users to ask themselves this, as well.
    – Kendra
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 16:15
  • 1
    A question may be downvoted because it's unclear, poorly researched, or generally not useful (as per the tooltip). Or because Tim lost his keys. I do not know how hiding the score would drive the users to ask the relevant question.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 16:15
  • 2
    @yivi, Because they aren't sad, defensive, frustrated, resentful, stressed, burning with anger, ready to start a fight on Meta, itching to email SO staff?
    – jpp
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 16:16
  • 2
    @yivi if too much info is worse, then less is better. You could replace the negative score with some phrase like "Please reviews your post" or just a red "!". That feels like it's enough, without "-125" to demoralise new users. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 16:17
  • 1
    @Pureferret It's not only about quantity of information, but quality of information. I still think informing users better with suggestions like this is a much, much better idea than hiding scores just for one user; even disregarding all the complications that implementing something like this would entail.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 16:20
  • 1
    @yivi, A half-way measure is just to stop at -1. They do not need to see -10. And send that message. The principle is the same.
    – jpp
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 16:22
  • That's not a half-way measure. That's the full measure. You are hiding the score and showing inconsistent information to the user.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 16:23
  • Frankly, I even find the idea slightly disrespectful for newer users, even knowing you do not mean it that way. Everybody started the same here. Now you have 27k rep, but you learn't the ropes as you went by; same as me with my paltry 2.8k. New users can do that as well, and most of them do. We can use better guidance and better just in time documentation, but that was always true, and will always be true.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 16:27
  • 1
    @yivi, the point is the ones who don't need extra help. This is one option Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 16:54
  • 1
    I'm not convinced that lying to users about their rep will generate any kind of trust or respect:( Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 22:37
  • 1
    @MartinJames, Lesser of many evils. Don't see any trust or respect right now. This is the nature of the twitter / facebook generation. I mean that in the kindest way: society has conditioned us to see black marks / negative ratings as personal #Nosedive.
    – jpp
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 22:41
-8

If a downvote is a sign that the question/answer doesn't follow SO standards, asking why it has been downvoted is a really good reaction, in my opinion. How could we improve, otherwise? Explaining why you downvote should be a no-brainer.

Also, what I have seen really often is that a downvote creates a negative dynamic on a post: once downvoted, even if the poster corrects it, the downvotes won't be withdrawn. Quite the opposite, actually, and I suspect some voters just vote with the crowd and don't even bother to form their own opinion. Maybe it could be a good idea to reset votes if the post is heavily edited by the author after downvotes.

8
  • 1
    It's generally not a good idea to explain yourself. As to why, this post has some reactions.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Nov 19, 2019 at 17:41
  • 2
    How could we improve, otherwise? By reading the provided documentation? Commented Nov 19, 2019 at 17:55
  • 1
    Yes, pile-on voting is a real problem. Perhaps make it harder (not impossible) to see the vote total. Perhaps only during the initial attention (usually the first few hours). Commented Nov 19, 2019 at 19:25
  • 5
    Providing (voluntary) anonymous feedback for downvotes could be a solution (to avoid the drama (essentially pleas to revert the vote no matter what) and the revenge downvoting). It could be free form and/or from a set number of options. In addition to improving the overall quality of questions, this would also provide higher fidelity input to machine-learning systems as a downvote would be more than the current 1 bit of information. Commented Nov 19, 2019 at 19:32
  • 3
    @PeterMortensen I like the idea of choosing options. Something similar to close votes (list of reasons) but perhaps a bit more lightweight and not mandatory. Also anonymised - that way you can provide feedback more easily.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Nov 19, 2019 at 20:03
  • @PeterMortensen There was an A/B experiment running not long ago that set the floor of downvotes at -3. More to say, the minimum downvotes displayed was -3, since they couldn't very well set the actual floor. Needless to say the experiment was inconclusive. Commented Nov 20, 2019 at 1:03
  • @fbueckert The link you provided shows some real good example of rants... some of them starting by a closed question or a downvote without any explaination, it's clearly stated .So it does not demontrate that explaining your actions is a bad idea. Quite the opposite, actually. Commented Nov 20, 2019 at 10:58
  • 4
    You're doing some awful specific cherry picking. I just re-read most of those examples, at least half of them you can tell are responses to comments. Probably more. I think it does a really good job of demonstrating why commenting on votes are a bad thing.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Nov 20, 2019 at 12:43
-9

I wonder if the problem with downvotes is that they perform two different functions - they are used to help with the "finding pearls" thing, and they are used as a stick to make people do what we want.

Using downvotes to inform search and ranking seems pretty fair and harmless to the poster. It's not something they're going to see and be hurt by, but it helps with getting people good, relevant answers when they search the site, use Google and so on.

Using them to tell a user they did a bad is horrible - argue if you want but it's about how it feels and having been on the receiving end plenty of times it feels bad to me. Whilst not unusual for the internet, IRL just shouting "bad" at someone whilst hiding is antisocial - it's easily perceived negatively and it isn't how you inform or teach them, no matter how you dress it up. SO can do better.

So change how downvotes work to decouple their two obvious effects - stop them hurting the individual who posted, and use them only to influence finding stuff.

An example of how this might work:

  • Posters don't see downvotes. At all. Anywhere. They don't help the poster improve their question, answer their question or ask a better question next time. From the poster's perspective, their effect can only be negative, from confusion to inflicting pain.
  • Downvotes no longer affect rep. If I can't see your downvotes, why is my rep going down? Folks who only ask "bad" questions aren't going to see any compounding rep effect, and will therefore accumulate very slowly.
  • Downvoters ONLY see their own single downvote per question. Why does it matter to you if other people downvoted it? Your opinion, your vote based on the content, not the opinions of others. Stops inconsistency in what people see and ensures there's no "bandwagon" effect.
  • To solve the Pearls/Sand problem and respect the wishes of those who value downvotes as a personal quality control, each user can toggle downvoted questions off, so that once a question is downvoted by someone (or three people, or whatever), they won't see it.
  • Upvotes work as they do now - make the most of positive interactions.
  • Comments as they are now, the way to inform and teach, if you want to take the time to do that. If you don't then contribute to search quality by leaving your silent downvote and be on your way.

A tweak - I see that the people talking about pearls are actually making a cultural reference that I missed from seven years ago - https://stackoverflow.blog/2011/06/13/optimizing-for-pearls-not-sand/ I've updated my suggestion to try and solve that problem too.

25
  • 1
    Just to clarify: are you suggesting that the score of a post = the number of upvotes, so posts with the same number of upvotes are displayed the same regardless of how many downvotes they have? Are you suggesting this be applicable to questions as well as answers or only questions? Commented May 2, 2018 at 10:22
  • 1
    While closely related to this question, this suggestion seems rather distinct, so I might suggest posting it as a separate feature request (although there has been similar feature requests in the past). Commented May 2, 2018 at 10:24
  • Hey @Dukeling thanks for the comments! Yes, I'm suggesting that we only display the upvotes, although downvotes count as they do today in search and rankings. Thinking about it, if a question has both upvotes and downvotes, it says that we can't even agree amongst ourselves whether it's good or bad, doesn't it? Seems unfair to expect newbies to make sense of that, so show them any good news or nothing seems reasonable.
    – brabster
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 10:38
  • Haven't given much thought to answers yet - I'm focusing on that early contact experience for newbies - folks for whom we're maybe their first (and if we're mean to them, maybe their only) contact with other software developers. Maybe it'd work for answers too, seems like a decent answer should get some upvotes and usually an accept flag, enabling ranking up to the top - so d owe have to make people feel bad for having a go?
    – brabster
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 10:41
  • I'll transfer it over to it's own post at lunchtime :)
    – brabster
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 10:42
  • 3
    (It seems problematic to hide downvotes for answers too, because those often indicate that an answer is wrong, which is important for answer ordering and for visitors to see, whether they might edit the answer to fix it, provide their own answer or make use of what the answer said.) Commented May 2, 2018 at 11:08
  • That's an interesting observation - thinking about it, I'm sure I've been in situations in the past when I know an answer is wrong (as opposed to correct but poorly explained, or rudely given) and I wonder whether general downvotes are a good solution to express all these ideas. Maybe there should be a specific way of clearly flagging an answer as actually wrong? Funny that "wrong" is not something you can clearly say! Wandering off-topic though so I'll agree with you re: showing downvotes in the context of the current answer system.
    – brabster
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 11:16
  • 7
    No. Downvotes are a quality control mechanism that signals to readers that the Question / Answer is of insufficient quality one way or another. We don't want to remove that from view.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 12:02
  • @Cerbrus, I think I understand your point of view, even thought it's not one I personally hold. I've updated my suggestion to allow individuals to choose whether they want to see downvoted questions or not, hopefully appeasing both types of SO answerer.
    – brabster
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 13:14
  • 2
    So, what if a question is voted +6/-6? Would it be hidden then? How about +23/-14? How would you allow users to upvote these hidden posts again? How would you prevent users form intentionally downvoting questions to make them "disappear"? This has way too much potential for abuse.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 13:17
  • Note that currently posts with a score of -3 or lower are given reduced visibility (e.g. such questions don't show up on the front page and such answers are greyed out) - it would make sense to me to stick to that idea even if we stop showing downvotes (so give it reduced visibility if upvotes-downvotes<=-3). Commented May 2, 2018 at 13:31
  • 2
    @brabster: Better, but that still doesn't solve any problems, and is easily abused by people wanting to censor certain answers.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 13:41
  • 9
    I know exactly what will happen if this is implemented: Users will continually ask us why they're banned from asking, and point out that all their questions are positively scored. That'll lead to even more confusion, because we're not going to be providing feedback that their contributions are not up to par. And they won't try to edit them into shape, either. That feedback loop is critical to proper behaviour.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 18:41
  • 3
    As you say, this does give new insight in the problem. Namely how about of users don't really know all the mechanisms of the site, how they interact and why they were put in place. I wonder how much the fact some of our rules are obscure, or scarcely documented, come into play here..... Maybe education and better communication of what we are all about would fix this.... Or simply making our reasonings more easily accessible via help center articles and such...
    – Patrice
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 12:32
  • 3
    Oh for sure. It's sad, but maybe we needed a provocative 'slap in the face' post to energize the community towards these discussions...
    – Patrice
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 12:44
-11

Be Welcoming

Seriously. Most new users aren't fools who have a problem understanding downvotes. Sometimes downvotes are just handed out too eagerly. There's no rep penalty for downvoting a question, apparently, so there's nothing to discourage anyone from handing them out haphazardly.

Should You Downvote?

Before casting a downvote, particularly if a new user is involved, ask yourself:

  1. Has this question been asked by an actual person (because bots are unworthy of sympathy)?
  2. Is the content of the question coherent (n.b. "coherent" is not synonymous with "written in well-formatted, grammatically correct English")?
  3. Is the question answerable (within a reasonable scope)?
  4. Is the question even kinda-sorta vaguely on topic?
  5. Is the question refraining from vulgarity, trolling, personal attacks, and other obscene and/or unsociable conduct?

If the answer to all of those is "Yes", then don't downvote. Instead do useful things like answering the question, proposing edits, or asking the OP to clarify things that need clarifying.

In short, if a new user has asked a borderline question then help them improve it instead of downvoting it into oblivion and then expecting them to understand why.

Dividends

The upshot is that by helping the new user learn what's expected of a good question by revising a borderline one with them is that their asking skills will improve and next time they won't need to understand any particular philosophical points about downvotes because they'll know how to contribute better content and avoid attracting downvotes in the first place.

Giving them a downvote won't do that. Giving them a blurb explaining downvotes won't do that either. Their need is for content-creation skills, which are learned and improve with repeated use. Their need isn't for negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement sucks.

Downvotes are lazy. New users are worth an effort. Make an effort.

10
  • 7
    While I agree that downvotes don't do all that much to help any given user improve... (1) In my experience, most users ignore requests for clarification or any other feedback that isn't an attempt to answer the question, however polite that feedback is. (2) Most "bad" (not useful) questions are either not salvageable or require significant feedback from the asker to become "good" (useful). (3) In theory, downvotes help improve overall site quality (by hiding bad questions and "punishing" users for asking them). By all means try to help an asker, but don't sacrifice site quality. Commented May 2, 2018 at 6:12
  • Is that a relatively recent change, or has it always done that?
    – aroth
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 7:12
  • 4
  • 3
    In my experience, new users might respond to: Please include the definition of function foo so we can understand your problem. They don't respond well to: Until you post a mcve we can't answer your question. Most comments veer towards the latter form or, worse, are sarcastic. I very rarely get into a disagreement with the OP. That's not what comments are for. Entitlement culture is a 1st world problem SO can't fix on its own. We have to adapt.
    – jpp
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 7:39
  • 7
    I'm not so sure that most new users understand downvotes. I've seen too many comments asking why a question was downvoted or complaining about downvotes while insisting that there's nothing wrong with the question (which usually happens on questions that are most in need of improvement). Commented May 2, 2018 at 8:02
  • 9
    Speaking as someone with well over 10k edits and at the very least hundreds of clarifying comments network-wide, I'm not at all convinced that this method scales well. (Tutoring someone in the skills to ask questions well requires potentially hours of time, which neither SO volunteers nor askers are generally willing to spend.) And I can't see any way in which answering an unclear question is going to do anything at all to improve the asker's skill in asking. Quite the contrary, if anything! Commented May 2, 2018 at 8:15
  • 1
    Getting 'clarification' responses from OP's on sub-prime questions is too often like pulling teeth.: OP's just don't do what you ask of them. I expect that, when asked to format and indent their posted source code so that it's easily readable, they would do just that, not just go dead because they copypasta's the code from some site and don't understand what they posted. When a well-formatted, clear, understandable block of code is posted, and I ask 'print out the index in the loop as a debugging measure'. I exxpect more than 'How do I do that?' because they have next-to-no skills :(( Commented May 2, 2018 at 11:30
  • 2
    Some OP's are liars whose sole desire is to get their question answered with the absolute minimum effort on their side, totally uncaring about the time and effort spent by SO contributors have to try to unravel the download copypasta from homeworkExamples.com:( Commented May 2, 2018 at 11:38
  • 5
    Been there, done that, got the t-shirt and the hate. I'm tired of us always having to bend over to accommodate new users, without any effort required from their end. New users can try adapting to us a bit, instead of us always having to re-explain everything.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 18:47
  • 4
    @aroth: "particularly if a new user is involved" No. Any rules must be applied equally to all users, not reserved for some nebulous "new user" category. Commented May 3, 2018 at 19:48
-11

Can we make it more obvious to new users that downvotes on the main site are not insults?

No, of course we can't, for one simple reason:

For all intents and purposes, downvotes are insults.

People feel bad when their questions are downvoted. Of course they feel bad! They're only human.

Asserting that downvotes aren't insulting is like asserting that the sun revolves around the earth. It may be a popular myth (in fact I may get ostracized as badly as Copernicus and Galileo did for denying this myth), but it's still a myth.

If you believe that questioners shouldn't take downvotes personally, by the same token you ought to believe that contributors shouldn't take their rep score personally, shouldn't feel good as it goes up, shouldn't be motivated to contribute more in hopes of seeing that rep score go up even more.

But I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of users here, at least at first, found the ramp-up of their rep score exhilarating. (I know I did.)

If downvotes on questions are part of what makes the site "unwelcoming", I don't think any amount of explaining or sugarcoating the downvotes will help. If we really wanted to fix this aspect of the problem, I think the only effective way of doing it would be to change the voting criteria, to align them better with the way actual human users are going to receive them. (That is, reserve the downvotes for the people we don't mind discouraging, the entitled whiners and the do-my-homework-for-me'ers.)

7
  • 7
    But that goes against the whole point of voting. Not to mention destroys one of our most important tools for maintaining quality. If you're voting due to personal behavior rather than the post, then why is it that the post is the one that gets the negative score, rather than the person? Commented May 3, 2018 at 4:29
  • 1
    @NicolBolas I am not proposing changing the voting scheme. While I do feel that SO is unwelcoming, I don't think question downvotes are a significant part of the problem. (Personally, I would like to see the voting criteria changed, but I know they're sacrosanct, so again, I'm not proposing changing them,) Commented May 3, 2018 at 14:03
  • 1
    @NicolBolas If you're voting due to personal behavior ... I am not talking about the motivations of voters. I am talking about the reactions of the people who see those votes applied to their questions. Commented May 3, 2018 at 14:08
  • 1
    @SteveSummit Thanks for posting this. I support this 100%. Great to see a person that understand what this is really about. Do expect a massive downvote... but not from me
    – 4386427
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 19:21
  • 1
    @NicolBolas The problem is that you don't understand how newbies react. You see downvotes as a mean to protect quality. Fair - but that doesn't change how new folks see SO :(
    – 4386427
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 19:24
  • 6
    @4386427: I understand how they react just fine. That's why I say that this whole thing is a fool's errand. We're either going to make the site welcoming to garbage, or we're not going to make any changes that make the site more welcoming to those who already see it as unwelcoming. Commented May 3, 2018 at 19:32
  • 5
    "People feel bad when their questions are downvoted. Of course they feel bad! They're only human." - I cannot understand this at all. I'm pretty sure I'm human, and even when I first started on an SE site a downvote made me think, "I've messed up - let's rewrite this." Because that is what the welcome page taught me to think about down votes. I am baffled as to how anyone can see it as an insult. New folks really do need to read that page. Yes we can make it more obvious and more welcoming, but it seems key to the whole thing.
    – Rory Alsop
    Commented May 9, 2018 at 9:29
-13

When I read the blog post about "being nice" instead of "hostile" my thoughts were "here we go again". The same old discussion about protecting site quality versus a welcoming attitude to newbies. Those discussions pop up from time to time. Several meta discussions have followed the blog post with all the usual arguments. No news, no changes, just the same old community discussion.

So - as always - I decided to stay out of it.

But this question is different. It manipulates the readers by setting up a premise that is completely wrong. So I just couldn't resist commenting.

Now OP decided to take my comment and put it in to the question text. Using the manipulated premise, OP tries to make a point out of saying: "See how right I am as a 16K rep user doesn't even understand it".

What an irony for a question talking about "not being an insult".

To me it's obvious that OP have misunderstood the concept of means and goals. Goals is mistaken for means.

Example:

A car with a seriously sick person is speeding to reach the hospital as soon as possible to rescue the sick person.

The goal: Rescue the sick person

The mean: Drive faster than allowed

Maybe you'll see the difference. The goal is fine but the means to reach the goal is still bad.

Downvotes at SO works the same. They insult the poster. They say to the poster: "What you have posted here is bad". No one like to be told that.

No matter how much you think that the downvotes helps reaching a quality goal, it does not change that the downvote is an insult to the poster.

To conclude - your question is simply based on a wrong premise. Downvotes do insult posters. Therefore you can't succeed and there is no point in trying.

38
  • 11
    No, I'm afraid you've got something wrong here yourself. Downvotes were never intended to be insults. They're meant to be a quality control mechinism, nothing more. That they're taken as insults is a problem, and one I hope we can find some way to fix. I understand the purpose of downvotes quite well, thank you. I included your comment in the post as proof that some people don't see downvotes as anything but insults. As proof that something is very, very wrong here. I believe we can both agree on that point, can we not?
    – Kendra
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 20:55
  • 9
    Let me also add that throwing out comments like "your bad manner" (what bad manner, if you please? I cannot fix that which I am unaware of.) and "you don't know what you're talking about" are not exactly a great way to get a constructive discussion going. "It's obvious that you don't understand the concept of means and goals." That is an incredible jump to conclusions, and your example is not remotely similar to the current situation. The current situation is actually a breakdown in communication, where people interpret things in ways which they were never intended.
    – Kendra
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 20:59
  • 2
    The current situation is actually closer to you looking at the speed limit and seeing an upper bounds, as in "Go no faster than x" and me seeing it as a lower bounds, as in "Go no slower than x." You see downvotes as nothing more than an insult, and I see downvotes how they were intended. That there is this breakdown is the real problem, and the problem that needs resolved.
    – Kendra
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 21:01
  • 13
    I will not argue this with you further when you are intent on turning my attempt at helping people feel less insulted by a quality control metric into my being a bad person who doesn't understand. (I would say I understand quite well what people feel a downvote means, considering I was concerned enough to post a question about helping clarify what downvotes are and help new users feel better about them. Shame to me for trying to help make the site a better place.) Good day to you.
    – Kendra
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 21:05
  • 10
    @4486427 Kendra is backing up because you aren't being constructive, nothing else. You argue for less insults and more niceness... Please give Kendra the same courtesy. If someone posted an answer like the one you just posted to a new user, you would likely see it as insulting. She sees it the same here. I understand her stepping out of that pointless conversation.
    – Patrice
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 21:40
  • 4
    Is this purposely posted as an example of the kind of things we're trying to remove/move away from?
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 21:54
  • 3
    You're misunderstanding the purpose of this question, and turning it into a personal attack. I am very disappointed in that.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 23:11
  • 6
    Just a nitpick. Literally means it happened exactly as you said. You're the only one who used Jerk on this page.... you haven't been called a jerk. She disagreed with you. In a civil way. She explained that, and never was insulting. You see it as an insult and lashed back.
    – Patrice
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 10:55
  • 4
    You've been misconstruing the basis of this question from the beginning, and then attacking the asker in the comments when they're trying to clarify. So I'm rather disappointed in that, and it makes it hard to take you seriously.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 20:15
  • 3
    We'll have to agree to disagree. Also, you should really check to see how long I've been around before thinking I don't know what I'm talking about. Just because I don't post much doesn't mean I don't know what's going on. I participate in MSO much more than main.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 20:23
  • 4
    Your tone is rather condescending; you're working off the assumption that I don't know what I'm talking about, and don't understand. If you want to discuss, then discuss, without throwing in the sideways and direct implications that I'm new and don't understand. Either way, I'm no longer interested in doing so. I disagree with your stance, and we can leave it at that.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 20:31
  • 6
    @4386427 The irony of you demanding that your answer be taken constructively, and not as a personal insult, when the actual content of that answer is the statement that other people providing constructive criticism are by definition personally insulting people, and that their actions are inherently insulting, is just...wow. Either you were being intentionally ironic, or you now understand exactly why your answer has such a low score.
    – Servy
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 20:31
  • 2
    Especially when your do not know the details about the ever ongoing struggle within the community regarding quality and welcoming
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 20:37
  • 3
    Jesus, I am not being superior, I am trying to point out you are using an improper argument. You are saying "She called me a jerk" when that was never done. I was supposed to go "no no, she called you a jerk, you are right" when it wasn't? Aren't we here to learn? Shouldn't I point out mistakes? And isn't you telling me "go re read this, you didn't get it the first time" also condescending? If we try to look for offense, it's easy to find it everywhere.
    – Patrice
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 21:06
  • 4
    Notice how I didn't point out silly mistakes like "goals is"? exactly because I am not playing the "I am superior" game. I am calling out a mistake when that mistake changes your argument. That is actually the point of downvotes to. To be about providing feedback and helping improve. You can see it as an insult if you want (and you've been making it clear you do want to see it that way). But it's not given as an insult..
    – Patrice
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 21:07
-20

The problem is that downvotes don't help them to help themselves. They don't give any hint as to what the problem is, or how to fix it.

They just come over as hostile and unhelpful, at best.

If you don't want new users to mistake downvotes for insults, consider not downvoting and instead leaving a helpful comment. One line pointing out the basic flaw. If that's too much effort, as some have suggested, consider not doing anything at all.

3
  • 16
    Helpful comments generally aren't welcomed either. they often turn into arguments.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 3, 2023 at 12:27
  • 15
    Downvotes are the mechanism for rating content on SO and signalling to others which content is good/bad; not downvoting due to reasons unrelated to content ultimately harms other people relying on votes. If content is bad feel free to leave helpful comments but please do not refrain from proper voting. Commented Sep 3, 2023 at 13:39
  • 4
    Votes aren't meant to help the OP, they're meant to help other people identify high/low quality content. Remember that this is supposed to be a Q&A site, not a help desk - the value of your contributions is in how useful they are to other people. Commented Sep 5, 2023 at 23:25
-32

People don't see downvotes as insults, they see them as a hostile environment in which they must struggle, rather than a welcoming one.

Imagine you started learning a new language. The teacher immediately berates you for mispronouncing some words and puts a big red X on your score sheet. Are you likely to be encouraged to do better by that, or put off trying to learn from this person?

A more effective teaching technique is to show the correct behaviour and the positive results that come from it, and encourage people to adopt it. In this case, better questions get answers so advice and edits are more supportive and welcoming than down-votes.

11
  • 5
    How do we show the correct behaviour? There are just comments. Sadly, many people who ask bad questions, ignore comments even if they are polite and try to guide to a better way of asking questions.
    – user9455968
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 14:07
  • 8
    Considering that is exactly how school worked where I came from? Yeah, I'd keep learning. But I don't see how your suggestion will work? How do we show them the correct behavior and positive results without breaking our quality control system? Can you expand your answer to elaborate on this? (I have a couple ideas, but I'm not sure if they're what you have in mind or not.)
    – Kendra
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 14:08
  • 6
    yeah.. this has proven ineffective for me (anecdotal). Just goes into an argument. We arent teachers nor have we received training for such a thing
    – Suraj Rao
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 14:11
  • 25
    And again, we seem to disregard that a lot of new users do not want that feedback, even if they say otherwise. If instead of downvoting I explain myself, and am only met with vitriol... who protects me from that rudeness? I've literally been insulted for my nationality (who the heck has anything against Canadians, seriously?) for nicely telling a user "you made a mistake and posted this on meta, instead of the main site". How do we deal with that kind of response? No amount of niceness will help that kind of person
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 14:11
  • 2
    Maybe we should just disable the sign up form, since apparently so many new users are so terrible. Build a wall to keep them out, perhaps.
    – shogged
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 14:38
  • 4
    @shogged who even remotely suggested that here? This is really bad faith on your part. I am explaining to you how commenting all the time doesn't necessarily help with what you think it does. it just gets people cynical, jaded, angry, and it only feedback into itself (regular explains, gets insulted, gets angry, gets curt, gets seen as unwelcoming). The regulars definitely have to improve, yes. But there is improvement to be done on both sides. Can you legitimately say that me getting berated for where I was born because I pointed a misguided user from meta to main warranted?
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 14:44
  • 2
    There's no need to jump to sarcasm and such. For all we know, your answer could be exactly what we need- But the problem is it's so vague, we have no idea what you're really suggesting. Please, expand your answer and help us understand what you're suggesting.
    – Kendra
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 14:47
  • 25
    @shogged: "Imagine you started learning a new language." False analogy. We are not teachers, and tests are not public artifacts intended for everyone to see and learn from. SO is not what you think it is. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 14:59
  • 15
    If I'm expected to teach, I want a teachers salary. If I'm volunteering time, I get to say how it gets prioritized, and getting into street-fights with OP's who demand comments to explain downvotes, and then insult and abuse and R/A flag when they get them, is not a productive use of my spare time. If the question is bad, they get a down/close vote..next... Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:54
  • 6
    @MartinJames Exactly. The Sun forums had a mantra constantly reiterated by the most valuable contributors that those requesting help don't get to make the rules about how it is provided. Those who provide the help naturally get to do that, or move on.
    – user207421
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 16:48
  • @Patrice "I've literally been insulted for my nationality (who the heck has anything against Canadians, seriously?) for nicely telling a user "you made a mistake and posted this on meta, instead of the main site". How do we deal with that kind of response?" - well, by flagging it. People who say those kinds of things will say them regardless. Most people don't act like that. A lot of people do, of course, argue about what the site policies are, or should be, or think they shouldn't have to comply - that's a separate issue. Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 14:54
-33

I can't speak for others (apparently I think backwards from everyone) but the biggest pain in my ass about SO and downvotes is that there's almost always no explanation of why the downvote was cast. They then become no different than a troll or bogeyman; you can't act upon it. Asking a question is a little bit like writing code, and similar enough that Brian Kernighan's quote applies:

enter image description here

There is no shortage of self-important people on SO that say something to the effect of "I can't be bothered with this question, downvote and move on". AND THEY SAY IT WITH PRIDE. This hubris, and my constant haemorrhaging of reputation, led me to abandon SO specifically, and think 2x - 10x on other SE sites before posting a question. You'll notice a lack of "...and come back and add reputation later if they fix themselves". At no point is that ever stated or implied by the individual, SO policy, SO guidance, etc. And I spend way too much time reading various meta threads; if it's there and I missed it, it's hidden.

With the recent blog post, I'll give SO another shot. We'll see how it goes.

I don't have a problem with a downvote iff:

  • They can/do articulate that they understand my question.
  • The downvoter explains themselves. They are clearly vested enough to downvote, they should be obligated to spew forth some verbiage to help fix what they see as broken.
  • They can/do articulate why my question is a bad question and/or not appropriate and/or not appropriate for the site.
  • They can/do articulate what I can do to improve my question. Or at least a general direction of what to do. "Fix your spelling and grammar, use some formatting, post your code to Pastebin, draw a picture, etc..."
  • They can/do articulate what is missing from my question. Or at least a general idea of what's missing. "Post your code, what is this function supposed to be doing, what version is that library, take a screenshot of x, etc".
26
  • 18
    Maybe you missed this one? Why isn't commenting mandatory on downvotes, and why are ideas suggesting such shot down?
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:23
  • 19
    Votes don't exist as a call to action. They are used to tell other people who might be thinking about clicking the link to that post whether the post is worth their time. A post with a negative score is probably something to avoid. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:24
  • 31
    I used to explain my downvotes, but every time I did the OP started an argument, so I don't do it anymore. Providing a custom explanation to each and every person you downvote is too much work for too little benefit. Surely there's enough information in the Tour, the Help Center and the meta sites already to let them figure this out for themselves.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:28
  • 3
    I've seen several people suggest a short quiz when casting a downvote, where the down voter gets to pick a reason and/or type out their thoughts, and having the option to anonymously add those details will prevent blowback from the downvoter. The downvoter is clearly trying to help one or more people by downvoting, so something like this would help the OP as well. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:42
  • 2
    @YetAnotherRandomUser, have you read the Q&A I've linked earlier? Because it deals with this scenario you are suggesting now as well.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:44
  • 17
    Umm sorta.'I can't be bothered with this question, downvote and move on' evey day. ' AND THEY SAY IT WITH PRIDE' YES, BECAUSE I'M MOVING ON FROM A BAD QUESTION TO SPEND MY LIMITED TIME ON ANSWERING GOOD QUESTIONS'. That's not hubris, that's effective time-management. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:44
  • 9
    ”The internets at large don’t like SO” care to back that up with concrete evidence? So far, to me, it seems like a (very) vocal minority.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:48
  • 7
    The Internet at large loves SO. That's the reason the site is huge and we get thousands questions per day. There are users who aren't happy. Agreed. I do not like Facebook, and find its mechanics objectionable; hence I do not use it.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:48
  • 6
    +1, but note that we're explicitly discouraged from explaining downvotes, and there's a filter in place designed to prevent some such explanations from being posted. Many of us (me included) defy that guidance some or all of the time and have learned ways to work around the filter (e.g. pad your comment with spaces), but don't expect things to get better. The vision of being "welcoming" advanced by the blog post isn't a site that better helps new users create good content, it's one that never tells them there's anything wrong to begin with.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:49
  • 9
    Yup, there are users who do not like the site. Try the same search with "facebook sucks", or with "twitter sucks". See what you get.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:53
  • 6
    "There are posts in the Web complaining about a website" != "Internet at large do not like a website". Not at all.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:54
  • 2
    @yivi - yes, and those media have an actual track-record of real cyber-bullying ,whereas on SO, the loss of a few imaginary internet points is frequently labeled as the acts of despicable bullies:( Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 16:14
  • 3
    @YetAnotherRandomUser are you also opened to doing the same with upvotes? If not, this is putting a higher bar on one side than the other, which will cause a mismatch and weigh the scale towards +.... Without any real improvement
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 16:59
  • 5
    @YetAnotherRandomUser No, part of the purpose of a downvote is to signal to users that a question needs revision. The bigger part is the signalling and sorting of questions by quality. If we do something that impacts how often downvotes are cast, we need to do the same to upvotes so that our quality control metrics (aka "scores") are not skewed heavily to the positive.
    – Kendra
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 13:06
  • 3
    regardless of what the popular opinion is, the facts are that commenting on why you down/close voted just opens you up to the wrath of everyone that disagrees that the button should be there to begin with, not to mention the person that was pissed and posted "downvoter explain!", which is just passive/aggressive public shaming. They do not want an explanation, they want a name that they can attack directly, they do not want to hear what they need to do, they just want to know who to blame. I am with @RobertHarvey on this one.
    – user177800
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 0:08

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .