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Recently, I've noticed some contention — and simple miscommunication — over when 'red' flags ('spam' and 'rude or abusive') should be cast on Stack Overflow, and how moderators should handle them. Here's what we're talking about:

top of the flag box, showing spam and RA flags

This really shouldn't be a surprise. Flags in general, and especially spam/rude flags, are a very niche area of the site for most folks. Additionally, Stack Overflow has a whole bunch of moderators. At these scales, clear communication and coordination becomes difficult.

I'll keep it short. I believe we all agree that spam (skin care, anyone?) should be flagged as spam — so we don't need to debate that. I've picked out the areas that moderators, and the community, don't seem to be aligned on:

  • red flags on gibberish - including keyboard mashes, like this one. There's prior discussion here, but as recently as this week I've seen a moderator rejecting the conclusions reached there and handling flags differently.

  • spam flags on gibberish — assuming red flags in general are appropriate on keyboard mashes, are spam flags kosher? (Read the facts section before deciding)

  • spam flags on abusive posts — like (NSFW) this. If the point of a post is to compare the OP, OP's mom, Java, Trump, or any number of targets to human and/or equine excrement, I suspect we'd agree that an abusive flag is warranted. Is a spam flag kosher?

I'd like to ask the community's, and others moderators', opinions on when and how these should be cast and handled. The goal here is to reach agreement, if not consensus, on how these should be used, and to create a clear reference for users and moderators alike.

To help in this, here are some facts:

  1. The system treats these two flags entirely identically. There is no difference in how signal is fed to blocking mechanisms, how they're prioritized in the flag queue (the URL filter parameter is literally named spamoffensive), or anything other than pronunciation. The only difference is the label that shows up in the flag queue.

  2. Shog's answer here supports a philosophy of "gibberish is bad, just delete it". It's easy to extend this to "don't overthink the flags, just handle the content"

  3. Community projects, like automated flagging, would require a lot of work to respect any kind of forced dichotomy between the two flag types. From the perspective of these projects, there's no gain to be had from forcing the 'correct' flag be used on posts — just a ton of work. See Pops' comment on the matter:

    It's... hard... to argue in favor of writing an algorithm and making a bot spend time calculating which of the two flag types to use when they are, in actuality, the exact same flag. It's not even Coke vs. Pepsi, it's Pepsi vs. a second bottle of Pepsi that's using a different but still valid Pepsi logo.

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    I've seen a misconception before that some mods decline abusive flags on gibberish because they vaguely think it confuses SpamRam, which isn't the case.
    – M.A.R.
    Commented Mar 12, 2017 at 20:17
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    well, if spamRam does block users who habitually post gibberish, no harm done I guess... Commented Mar 12, 2017 at 20:19
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    Personally, where it's obviously spam/rude I'll cast a binding flag and where it's obviously not I'll decline it. I tend to dispute the cases where I can see why someone cast a flag and from their POV it's most likely valid but actually it's not. Another consideration is that helpful spam/abusive flags on posts also make that post a possible candidate for audits which affects things further down the line.
    – Jon Clements Mod
    Commented Mar 12, 2017 at 20:24
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    @JonClements The last part of that sounds like a valid argument to fix/adjust the audit system, if it's causing issues.
    – Undo Mod
    Commented Mar 12, 2017 at 20:26
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    @JonClements a cat on the keyboard is an excellent audit, isn't it? Better than those cases where a mod had to dig through someone's deleted history before arriving to a conclusion. Commented Mar 12, 2017 at 20:26
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    Why are you equating a programming language to people? The language can't get offended, and the compiler gets offended by any manner of syntax errors that appear in legitimate questions and sometimes answers. Let's keep the "offensive" flag limited to personal attacks on people. Just because technical criticism of language rules, tools, or coding styles is poorly worded doesn't make it automatically wrong.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Mar 12, 2017 at 22:06
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    @BenVoigt A weak attempt to cover the bases. stackoverflow.com/a/22895303/1849664 (NSFW)
    – Undo Mod
    Commented Mar 12, 2017 at 22:07
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    @Undo: Yeah I don't see how that requires a moderator flag. It's clearly non-constructive, because it doesn't make any technical points, but it's childish rather than offensive, and rude only in the sense that wasting peoples' time and screen space is rude (but then I don't think I should go around flagging ever question that I consider a waste of time). The low quality queue would handle it just fine. Same with random keyboard noise. Same with copy+paste a random paragraph from King Lear.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Mar 12, 2017 at 22:20
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    @BenVoigt "Inappropriate for respectful discourse" pretty much covers that example, right there in the flag description.
    – Undo Mod
    Commented Mar 12, 2017 at 22:22
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    I'm missing some the idea if gibberish (cat on keyboard), users with other reasonable post should not be red flagged chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/41570?m=26705146#26705146 and meta.stackoverflow.com/a/317611/5292302 Commented Mar 13, 2017 at 20:02
  • @PetterFriberg Worth consideration, but as Art points out the data we have says that those cases are outliers.
    – Undo Mod
    Commented Mar 13, 2017 at 20:34
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    So if the system treats these two flags entirely identically, what's the point of having the two different flags? Why not just have one red flag for spam/abusive?
    – DJMcMayhem
    Commented Mar 13, 2017 at 20:57
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    Purpose is for the benefit of flaggers, @DJMcMayhem - same reason we have both NAA and VLQ. You want folks who see a problem - especially a very very severe problem - to not have to think very hard before raising a flag.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Mar 13, 2017 at 21:00
  • @Shog9 that seems counter intuitive. If you don't want us to have to think too hard, give us one flag type ("harmful crap"), not two. Giving a choice makes it much more confusing for everyone involved. Both the flaggers and the mods who need to deal with the flag. Plus, as I understand, rude/abusive flags block posts from being used as audits (which makes sense) while spam flags do not. That's a non-negligible difference.
    – terdon
    Commented Jul 4, 2017 at 16:23
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    Doesn't block posts from being used as audits, audit-generators simply ignore RA flags, @terdon. As for being less confusing to have a single "bad things" flag, depends on your perspective: if you already know the rules, if you already know what the community deems unacceptable... Then a single flag is fine; if you don't, then a broad "everything bad" flag doesn't hint at what you should be looking at either. See also: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/340866/…
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Jul 5, 2017 at 19:03

2 Answers 2

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I vote the following:

  • Red flags on gibberish are okay (handle as Helpful). Do we really want "sdfiushrf;usrgbsrilbslfibsl.eifub!" sticking around the site for longer than necessary? Red flags put the ability to remove these posts in the hands of a much wider scope of the community than community or moderator delete votes alone, which is essential to getting these posts removed. Additionally, the description of the rude/abusive flag is "inappropriate for respectful discourse" - and I'd like to see the discourse where jumping in and yelling unintelligible noises is respectful.

  • Spam flags on gibberish are okay (handle as Helpful). If we accept rude/abusive flags on gibberish, we should accept spam flags on it - there is literally zero difference between the two. It doesn't make sense to me to enforce a mostly-arbitrary standard of "we accept this flag when you submit it this way, but not this other way" - which is essentially what's happening with spam vs. rude/abusive.

  • Spam flags on abusive posts are also okay (handle as Helpful). See previous - given that there's no difference, is there any point in not accepting both types of flag?

It's also worth noting that M.A.R. is correct - I have also heard of cases of one or other type of flag being declined because of confusion around SpamRam. SpamRam handles both flag types identically in every way.

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    This is pretty much how I've been approaching these flags for years. If someone flags obvious spam using something other than a spam flag, I'll still delete it as spam and mark the flag as helpful. Same with offensive content. I don't care what complete gibberish is flagged with, as long as it's flagged for removal somehow.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Mar 12, 2017 at 23:07
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    SE should add a red flag, "Pure Nonsense - Just get this thing out of my eyes".
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Mar 13, 2017 at 7:11
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    @Bhargav Rao: Yeah and everyone will start using that as a super downvote.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Mar 13, 2017 at 8:32
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    @BoltClock I agree, it's an awful suggestion. We should all flag Bhargav's comment as "rude or offensive" to communicate this.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Mar 13, 2017 at 14:23
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    The fact is, gibberish is neither spam nor rude/offensive, and importantly IMHO not "harmful". Gibberish is just noise/nuisance that should be deleted for sure, but not as a matter of urgency requiring moderator intervention. VTC or downvote/VLQ can handle it quickly enough.
    – Bohemian Mod
    Commented Mar 13, 2017 at 17:54
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    So "sdflibsfdlseflseubf!" is appropriate for respectful discourse, @Bohemian?
    – ArtOfCode
    Commented Mar 13, 2017 at 18:02
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    @Bohemian It doesn't seem harsh to me, given they are doing something they full well know harms the readers - even if there are things that harm the users in far worse ways. 100 rep isn't that much, and you can't assume good faith here. Commented Mar 13, 2017 at 18:15
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    @Bohemian considering all users I've seen so far posting gibberish are unregistered of have only 1 rep, the -100 penalty doesn't do anything anyway.
    – Floern
    Commented Mar 13, 2017 at 18:17
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    @Floern except for cases of vandalism, which we don't flag as abusive anyways, but opt for a rollback instead. Commented Mar 13, 2017 at 18:20
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    @Bohemian Stats: 96.54% of users caught by SmokeDetector posting gibberish in the past two or so years had one rep at the time of the incident.
    – ArtOfCode
    Commented Mar 13, 2017 at 18:34
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    @Bohemian Further stats: 99.24% of users caught by SmokeDetector posting gibberish in the past two or so years had under 100 rep at the time of the incident.
    – ArtOfCode
    Commented Mar 13, 2017 at 18:37
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    Point being, the 100-rep penalty doesn't apply to the vast majority of these users; further, the majority of the users it does apply to won't get the full penalty. There were 22 users who would have had the full penalty applied, and at that point users really ought to know better.
    – ArtOfCode
    Commented Mar 13, 2017 at 18:40
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    All ok but maybe some slack to users that have other reasonable posts and post gibberish (don't happens that often but if) chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/41570?m=26705146#26705146 Commented Mar 13, 2017 at 20:07
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    @JanDvorak Moderators have ways to revert the 100-rep penalty (and IP blocks, IIRC) if someone comes back with a story. Personally, I've seen it happen that a gibberish poster comes back with an excuse... maybe twice, and that's a stretch. The usual procedure with gibberish from established users is to delete and clear sessions; usually it ends up being a forgotten session on a library computer.
    – Undo Mod
    Commented Mar 13, 2017 at 20:37
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    @josh but it ain't a "red" flag
    – Bohemian Mod
    Commented Mar 13, 2017 at 22:24
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Is the case that we have two options which represent in reality just one action? If that's the case, then we should look to unify these two flags into one to reduce the confusion around them. That is, there is one "spam" flag type which encapsulates posts which are advertisements only, rude, abusive, or otherwise inappropriate for discourse here.

This eliminates the ambiguity of having two flags by only having one flag. There can be no further confusion as to which flag should be processed, and whether or not it makes sense to process it. This also helps moderators in a sense to eliminate any extraneous thinking about the matter; if it's truly not something we want here, then it's fine to remove it.

This does also mean that a large chunk of this sort of moderation moves to essence to the community-at-large; enough of these sorts of flags trigger automated effects or punishments against user accounts, and there may be some angst against that sort of reaction to how user accounts are punished. However, I don't think that this is a bad thing; regardless of the circumstance, we are all responsible for our own accounts and are responsible for ensuring the content we post is what we intend to and is respectful. This means that you can't just say, "Oh, my 10-month old daughter hit my keyboard and submitted this question. I'm sorry!"; you have to be more responsible with your account.

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  • "If that's the case, then we should look to unify these two flags into one" - it's on the roadmap already. Commented Mar 12, 2017 at 20:30
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    ... but that roadmap seems to be a 6-8 week (read: 'month') scale one, at least. I'd love to see it happen; in the meantime we need some sanity in how we handle these.
    – Undo Mod
    Commented Mar 12, 2017 at 20:30
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    @JanDvorak: If that's the case, this almost makes this discussion moot. The issue is one of ambiguity and confusion; if this is already in the works, then there's little input we can add to it.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 12, 2017 at 20:30
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    @Undo: In the meantime, my preference is listed above. Let two be one until the system agrees with the notion.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 12, 2017 at 20:31
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    Absolutely. That comment presents my view in a way better than I could have said it.
    – Undo Mod
    Commented Mar 12, 2017 at 20:32
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    totally agree. There is also a wider definition of spam, which is likened to trolling.
    – user3956566
    Commented Mar 13, 2017 at 0:15
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    On the same line, the VLQ and NaA flags should be combined.
    – user4639281
    Commented Mar 13, 2017 at 16:10

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