32

Earlier today, I flagged this question in the Staging Ground as rude or abusive. All it contained at the time was the following text from the Ask Wizard in the title and body repeated multiple times:

The body of your question contains your problem details and results. Minimum 220 characters

The body of your question contains your problem details and results. Minimum 220 characters.The body of your question contains your problem details and results. Minimum 220 characters.The body of your question contains your problem details and results. Minimum 220 characters.The body of your question contains your problem details and results. Minimum 220 characters.

Screenshot: enter image description here

The question is now deleted, but the flag was declined with the following reason:

"Spam" is defined as "unsolicited advertising" and this post contains none, so the “Spam” flag doesn’t apply here. Nonsense/irrelevant posts should be downvoted or flagged “Not an answer” etc.

I'm a little bit confused, as this wasn't a spam flag, downvotes and NAA flags aren't possible on SG posts, and I have also had similar R/A flags from the past few days marked helpful before they were red-flag deleted, and another flag on an answer marked helpful as a result of a red-flag delete, with the offending account being deleted or destroyed.

I would assume that R/A flags are the right course of action for posts like these, given the general guidance that red flags on gibberish is okay. Is this not the case, and if so, what action should have been taken instead?

24
  • 8
    Your flag was perfectly valid, and I would expect it to be marked "helpful". That's assuming there's nothing specific to SG when it comes to red-flags.
    – cigien
    Commented Nov 19 at 7:52
  • 8
    My flag on the same post was of course declined as well. I also always flag gibberish/nonsense posts R/A and usually they're marked helpful (almost 400 helpful R/A flags), either because they're auto-deleted after reaching 4 flags or even after a moderator reviewed it. But different moderators seem to have different standards.
    – jps
    Commented Nov 19 at 8:06
  • 6
    I don't see how that post was rude or abusive. Staging Ground functions a little differently than the main site. IMO a more correct action would have been to leave a comment to "clean it up" and make it more presentable and mark it "Require Major changes", or to mark it "off-topic" with the "Not about programming or software development" reason.
    – Drew Reese
    Commented Nov 19 at 8:26
  • 32
    How could a post consisting of copy-pasted nonsense could be "cleaned up"? What "major changes" could require, besides deletion? I don't think it's fair to assume the question was posted with good will. It's not a matter of someone attempting to post a question, and failing, but someone willingly posting garbage. This is not a case of copy-pasting filler to pass content-filters, but there was no content, not even a title.
    – yivi
    Commented Nov 19 at 8:39
  • 7
    @DrewReese I even left a comment reminding the user that posting nonsense is not ok and asked them to delete it, which was ignored. I flagged it hours later. And the text of the question is not R/A, but the fact that users post nonsense and waste time and space is what I consider R/A. If someone throws garbage into your garden, it's not the garbage that is rude, but the behaviour of the person.
    – jps
    Commented Nov 19 at 8:46
  • 16
    @DrewReese For me, that makes sense only when a post was posted with good will. For complete gibberish or abuse (either of people of or the system), it's not a matter of wasting resources of any type, but simply of quickly deleting the post, so the other users can focus on questions that are posted attempting to get actual results.
    – yivi
    Commented Nov 19 at 8:46
  • 19
    @DrewReese Not sure why you find it "interesting", but yes, I think that garbage should be deleted quickly, no matter where. And that intentionally posting nonsense is rude towards other users attempting to use the site.
    – yivi
    Commented Nov 19 at 8:53
  • 6
    @DrewReese Wouldn't your logic apply equally to spam posts in SG? AFAIK, spam posts in SG are supposed to be red-flagged, but maybe that's not the case?
    – cigien
    Commented Nov 19 at 8:55
  • 8
    @DrewReese yes, that's how abusive posts are handled, I don't see why we would change that for the SG. Unless there is a difference on the SG a red flag only requires mod intervention if we don't reach a consensus (fast enough I guess). See also Is a post like 'assdddsssafffwq' spam?. I don't see how randomly copy pasting is any different to randomly smashing the keyboard in that regard.
    – cafce25
    Commented Nov 19 at 8:56
  • 2
    @cigien No, not really. Actual spam content should be flagged as spam and removed. The same for content that is actually rude and/or abusive by any normal definition of the words (it is not lost on me that SO might apply a different meaning entirely though). Pure gibberish is none of these though, it's just nonsense. You can flag nonsense like that as R/A I guess, but I'm not surprised it gets declined occasionally. Many times it seems to depend on the handler which way it goes.
    – Drew Reese
    Commented Nov 19 at 9:06
  • 3
    I mean you cast an R/A flag and it gets rejected for not being spam... that has all the hallmarks of a miss-click about it. No need to be confused, just a human error. Agreed that this was abuse, regardless of the fact that the site randomly decided it should go through the staging ground.
    – Gimby
    Commented Nov 19 at 9:19
  • 11
    Former moderator here. For what it's worth, if I reviewed a flag that caused me to take corrective action on a post, I always marked it helpful, regardless of the flag type that was used. Commented Nov 19 at 12:28
  • 5
    I wish the flag descriptions in the interface were self-explanatory. All this lore and custom surrounding them is nice, but shouldn't be mandatory to know in order to flag successfully. Flagging should not be a gamble or a minefield. My experience is that it is at least some of the time, which is why I flag a lot less than would be useful. Commented Nov 20 at 14:39
  • 3
    if that flag rejection truly was a slip of the mouse, this site needs to provide the one making the mistake an easy way to undo/fix it. I have never been a mod, I can't tell what it offers you. so far it sounds like the site's interface is terrible. if it isn't, then whoever rejected the flag did so on purpose... which would mean using R/A for gibberish isn't as uncontentious as some would make it out to be. eh, it's a tangent. and nobody here can fix this site. Commented Nov 20 at 21:00
  • 2
    @ChristophRackwitz I can still see it being a genuine mistake. Of course we expect the mods to be careful, and I'm sure they are, but they're still human and sometimes mess up. I've personally accidentally flagged R/A when I meant NAA and didn't notice until a mod asked me why.
    – starball
    Commented Nov 21 at 0:57

1 Answer 1

41

As Gimby said, it looks like whichever mod handled your flag misclicked.

The rest of this answer post is addressed to people who think the R/A flag should have been declined.

Preface: For those who don't know, because I'm realizing that some people here don't, gibberish is considered R/A. See this and this.


R/A is R/A. "major/minor changes" reviews are basically the close reasons that aren't those where that question will practically never be on topic. We don't close R/A questions, do we?

People posting gibberish aren't going to change their gibberish into a real question. Expecting that it'll happen and taking the route expecting that to happen doesn't make sense to me. R/A is the proper route to handle this.

Drew makes an argument that R/A will go to the mod queue, and it's a waste of the mods' time when stale items in "major changes" fall out of the review queue. There are reviewers who look at stuff with the "major changes" status (I'm one of them). What about their time? It likely takes both those types of individuals approximately the same amount of time to action the post (arguably, mods can go faster because the problem is already categorized for them instead of wider pattern-recognition needing to be more active), but in the mod queue case, a mod can cast a binding vote, instead of three or however many flaggers are otherwise needed. Also, gibberish in SG probably doesn't happen often enough that it's no longer an "exceptional case" (within mod duties).

And in the end, this is also a matter of categorization. Gibberish is R/A. If someday the company magically, miraculously gets smart enough to build better system-level pattern matching to feed things like the triage queue, this categorization is what's going to feed the parameters of whatever's doing the matching.

12
  • 3
    Yeah, the company could "magically, miraculously get smart enough to build [...]" whatever, or they could skip all of that and simply add a "this post is nonsense and should be deleted immediately" button. But I'm not holding my breath for either option.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Nov 19 at 9:18
  • 14
    @l4mpi... the R/A flag is that button...
    – starball
    Commented Nov 19 at 9:19
  • 2
    It may be currently used in this way by SG reviewers, but I'm pretty sure it is not intended to be this button by the company. Same as they would not want you to flag trash questions on main as R/A unless they contain abusive language. Also, if R/A in SG does require a mod to handle, this would simply be inefficient.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Nov 19 at 9:29
  • 8
    @l4mpi I wrote it already in other comments, but again: It's not necessarily about abusive language, but about the behaviour of the OP. The word "love" itself is not rude or abusive, but if someone makes a post just pasting the word "love" dozens of times, it's still R/A behaviour. And regarding the intentions of the company: meta.stackexchange.com/a/234035/997587 (Shog9 was SO staff at that time). And if SE has an opinion about that, they can of course write an answer and let us know what their intentions are, so we don't have of speculate about that.
    – jps
    Commented Nov 19 at 9:42
  • 8
    @l4mpi What would you like the better "nuke this" button to do? Already, a handful of red flags from users result in the post being nuked. I'm struggling to imagine how the "nuking" can be made more powerful, without simply reducing the number of red flags needed (and I'm not personally comfortable with letting just 1 or 2 regular users unilaterally nuke a post).
    – cigien
    Commented Nov 19 at 10:24
  • 4
    Just my 2 cents here: I understand l4mpi's comments in the way, that they agree that the post should still be nuked, but R/A may be a flag with too many different interpretations and is an overloaded, umbrella flag. I could see a new flag that does exactly the same thing as R/A, but is just called "gibberish". That way there is no interpretation, and one doesn't need a history degree for the past 15 years of meta, to exactly know what is all considered R/A. I'm not saying that the current system doesn't work. But as always, it could be made better and more intuitive.
    – Lino
    Commented Nov 19 at 10:57
  • 1
    @cigien what Lino said re interpretation and meta history degree. Also, the better "nuke this" button should not involve mods, similar to a delete vote on main, as there are better uses for mod time than deleting nonsense posts in SG.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Nov 19 at 11:51
  • 3
    "in the mod queue case, a mod can cast a binding vote" - and also penalize the user, or make a note for future potential penalty. Commented Nov 19 at 17:17
  • 1
    @starball there's an inconsistency in help then: stackoverflow.com/help/review-low-quality says questions or answers that are very short, in the wrong language or gibberish should be flagged as VLQ, which is why I declined it. I used a standard pre-canned decline message, which I admit I should have edited to remove the "spam" reference. I interpret R/A as actually abusive (disparaging, hate, etc). I didn't consider "abuse to the site" as an interpretation of R/A, which I'm OK with accepting.
    – Bohemian Mod
    Commented Dec 5 at 19:18
  • @Bohemian that's interesting. I actually didn't know that about the VLQ help center page. maybe worth starting some community discussion on how VLQ and R/A flags should be handled for gibberish.
    – starball
    Commented Dec 5 at 23:12
  • @Bohemian This is my interpretation and understanding of the "Rude and Abusive" flag as well, which is why I said I didn't see the specific post the OP asking about as R/A and suggested they mark post as "requires major changes" or "off-topic".
    – Drew Reese
    Commented Dec 6 at 17:01
  • 2
    @Bohemian just a heads up the VLQ flag isn't available on SG questions so even if one wanted to raise that flag they wouldn't have been able to. Commented Dec 6 at 17:22

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .