411
votes

Stack Exchange just tweeted this image following the Supreme Court of the United States ruling in favor of gay marriage:

#LoveWins
#LoveOverflows

Please can this be made the logo for a couple of days? I'm thinking Stack Overflow.


LoveOverflow chat room for the more... off topic discussions on a loosely on topic post.

85
  • 96
    Some issues are transcendent and deserve special notice.
    – Bob Horn
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:00
  • 39
    Because you show that you care for people's right ?
    – kiddouk
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:00
  • 51
    I'm all for it, relevance-be-damned.
    – Jeff C.
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:00
  • 75
    The SO community is international, so I'm not sure why it should be affected by a decision of an USA court. Maybe it would be more appropriate to do this the International Gay Pride Day?
    – Oriol
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:20
  • 74
    Anyone voting to close this as "This question does not appear to be about Stack Overflow" - umm, we're talking about changing the logo. Wait, does Stack Overflow have a logo?
    – user50049
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:56
  • 16
    I approve this message!!! I'd love to see it, and I'm a happily married straight guy! Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:01
  • 44
    ... rainboverflow?
    – canon
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:09
  • 16
    A monumental day indeed, celebrating tolerance. Too bad my highly voted comment was edited by somebody, an SE employee presumably, totally changing its meaning. Not so tolerant. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:12
  • 14
    I would also like to know what happened to @HansPassant's original comment? I'm all in favor of changing the logo, but removing comments that calmly debate the question seems heavy-handed. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:24
  • 49
    "Marry whomever you love. Even if they're not a developer".
    – Tim
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:28
  • 27
    If we allow gay marriage, what will come next? Developers getting married?
    – ssube
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:33
  • 19
    @ssube - developers marrying other developers. ~~shudder~~
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:33
  • 21
    @Oded so long as they write up the requirements before the wedding, that could be a happy and efficient union.
    – ssube
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:34
  • 10
    @HaveNoDisplayName It has... its the b&w version
    – Matt
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:36
  • 21
    Programming should stay out of politics.
    – ohmu
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:53

20 Answers 20

1571
votes

I am in favor of this.

We wouldn't be doing it to promote social causes, nor would we be doing it to hitch our brand-wagon onto a popular cause. We're just doing it to celebrate how fast the world is moving towards acceptance of gay people.

I'm the CEO, co-founder, and inventor of Stack Overflow. I'm gay, American, and married, and have taken a lot of crap over the years for all three of those things, so this is a big day for me.

When I was a kid, gay marriage was impossible to imagine. I remember reading a bestselling book about sex when I was a teenager that was in favor of all kinds of sexual practices but drew the line at gay marriage, which it presented as the most ridiculous kind of clownishness possible. A whole chapter on homosexuals was morbidly obsessed with how they were always showing up in the hospital with hilarious inappropriate things stuck in inappropriate places. After I read that I thought I would have to keep my preferences secret forever.

Thankfully, braver people than I realized that if enough people know somebody who is gay, they will understand that being gay is not some kind of freak-show threat to society -- it's perfectly normal and entirely harmless. So as more and more people came out of the closet, society became slowly more and more accepting of homosexuality.

I've been in a long committed relationship with the same man for a couple of decades now, and there have been many times where the next thing that relationship really needed was a formal, state-recognized commitment ceremony, but until recently, that was not a legal option.

One night I tuned into a cable tv channel and watched the incompetent, criminally corrupt, venal New York state legislature somehow manage to eke out a law allowing gay marriage and suddenly I was a real citizen for the first time. Despite my normal calm nature I couldn't help but cry tears of joy.

Today's Supreme Court decision is monumental. It reflects a distinct change in American society, from being nearly universally against allowing gay people to marry, to having a solid majority in favor. It's a great moment.

Very few people here would dispute this. Almost everyone arguing against changing the Stack Overflow logo to the rainbow logo for a day or two are just saying "this is not the place" or that somehow Stack Overflow should be seen as neutral on social issues, not taking a stand on what could be a controversial issue.

That's missing the point.

The point is that allowing EVERYONE to marry IS the neutral position.

On Stack Overflow we don't care if you're black, white, brown, or purple, as long as you know the answer to a programming question, you'll get the upvote. We don't care if you're straight, gay, bi, trans, queer, asexual, intersexual, questioning, poly, or a sandwich, we only care if you're right. That's a fundamental, core value of Stack Overflow. Whoever you are, you are equal in our eyes.

That's what the Supreme Court just ruled.

Couldn't be more relevant to Stack Overflow.

136
  • 92
    This is the real answer. I was waiting for you, Joel. <3 Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:47
  • 355
    "I'm the CEO, co-founder, and inventor of Stack Overflow, I'm gay, American, and married, and have taken a lot of crap over the years for all three of those things..." - which three have you taken crap for? :P
    – daveaglick
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:49
  • 173
    a) you yourself said "I wouldn't want" "all kinds of awareness ribbons of various colors"... guess you've changed your mind on that b) clearly this particular topic is not neutral, as it was very recently tightly contested in a high court c) any individual's position on any individual issue is not relevant to the topic of whether the site should be used to celebrate social causes d) it's right and proper that stackoverflow is agnostic to sexual orientation. it should celebrate agnosticism on nonprogramming issues by NOT changing the logo Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:50
  • 79
    Allowing all americans to marry, is, sadly not allowing everyone. Gays are hugely discriminated in Italy my home country. I'm happy that you are happy, do celebrate! But today I'm a bit sad because I'm not proud of Italy.
    – Sklivvz
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:55
  • 69
    Sandwiches still can't properly use the mouse or keyboard. This is discrimination at its finest and it must be changed.
    – Jamal
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:55
  • 101
    But, despite of all these upvotes, I can't agree with this.
    – nicael
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:57
  • 54
    Damn it, who's cutting all these onions in my office? Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:59
  • 40
    @Sklivvz I feel similarly about Russia as you do about Italy. Hopefully as more and more countries legalize marriage for all, others will follow.
    – Adam Lear StaffMod
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:59
  • 74
    If your argument against a logo change amounts to "Oh no, someone might think I'm gay and discriminate against me"... Welp. Welcome to my world. ;)
    – Adam Lear StaffMod
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:09
  • 84
    I do wonder why social causes need publicity on Q/A sites that are not about social causes? Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:11
  • 49
    Joel, is this cause directly threatening SO? Or could this be considered a 'slippery slope'? meta.stackexchange.com/a/114026/137116 Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:16
  • 122
    It's your company and site, but in 2011, you said that "there is a difference between promoting "all kinds of awareness ribbons of various colors" (which I wouldn't want) and opposing a law that threatens the very site itself.". You mentioned the slippery slope - isn't this going down it? This is a social and political issue in the US and doesn't affect Stack Exchange, Stack Overflow, or the majority of users and visitors come from outside the United States. Wouldn't the blog be more appropriate? If not, what has changed in the last 4 years or so? Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:21
  • 75
    To all the people quoting Joel's previous, 4-year-old answer, you're missing the end: "There are very, very few situations that are important enough to try to get your attention. I hope that we continue to make the right call as to what's really important and what's merely nice to have, but it's always a judgement call." A "judgement call". By the people who own and run this site, to whom it is obviously "really important"... Embrace diversity. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:31
  • 93
    To me, this post is nothing but spin and rationalization. Next it'll be some environmental thing and the logo will be a tree for a few days because nature is beautiful and beautiful code generally runs better and that's what we're all about. I get that many people are happy about this court decision (myself included), but the excuses aren't fooling me. SO is endorsing a political decision because the site owner likes it, plain and simple. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 22:43
  • 21
    This is just a propaganda move from the owner of this site to use its popularity to propagate his own controversial opinion. This act and making the SO community to look like a LGBT activist and political lobbyst disgusts me and is highly against to the fundaments of this community.
    – totymedli
    Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 0:42
537
votes

Absolutely disagree, for the same reason I outlined in this old meta question:

Please do not use Stack Overflow to promote social causes

Some issues are transcendent and deserve special notice.

Sing your hearts song wherever you want, but please not on the site where posting a Q or an A about it would be grounds for lock/close/deletion.

53
  • 73
    I think people need to relax. It hurts nothing to give the logo some color to in honor of social progress.
    – Bob Horn
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:18
  • 318
    @BobHorn all social issues are "progressive" to some subset of the global population and "regressive" to another subset of the global population. It's not right or proper that stackoverflow be the voice for just one of those people. It should be neutral. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:19
  • 134
    @BobHorn i'm sure there's a limitless supply of social issues you can take a principled stand on and you're welcome to do so... but NOT on StackOverflow, and certainty not via SO's logo Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:23
  • 17
    Stack Exchange bills itself as communities. This issue affects a big swath of the community. Including me. Your arguments about the SOPA announcment ignore the basic principal of SE/SO: The communities decide. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:24
  • 100
    @DanielEvans United States court decisions don't affect more people than they do affect, if you want to use that argument. Regardless, SO is a worldwide community... "for professional and enthusiast programmers". Not "for professional and enthusiast United States court discussers" Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:27
  • 12
    @FactorMystic What does it hurt to do this?
    – Bob Horn
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:27
  • 28
    @BobHorn please see my linked answer on the SOPA discussion for why this is a bad principle for site operation Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:28
  • 27
    It should be neutral. - Given the tweet, it's a little late for that.
    – BSMP
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:30
  • 11
    @BobHorn I linked it rather than simply copy/paste what I said before & additional discussion. The up/down vote count is in the 90's both way, so it was vigorously discussed. The situations are equivalent so the old argument still applies. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:43
  • 39
    @Two-BitAlchemist if you believe that I don't want to use SO to promote social causes because I don't believe in the social cause at hand, that is incorrect. My disagreement is purely on the principle of how the site should be run. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:14
  • 16
    "I am completely uninterested in being badgered about social causes... I am disgusted by the recent Internet trend... I hate that Stack Overflow is doing this now too." Sorry I missed your communitarian language the first time and misinterpreted this as a personal annoyance of yours. My question stands: if you are so concerned about the community, why do you seem mostly unfazed by resistance from that same community to not doing things your way? Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:17
  • 26
    @Two-BitAlchemist those words are in reference to the topic, which is that SO is being used to promote social causes. Those words are not in reference to any particular social cause, nor are they an opinion on SOPA or marriage equality Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:24
  • 39
    Let's assume there are no gay employees in SE(including the CEO), would they still do what they do now? I doubt. That wouldn't make the gay rights any less of an issue, would it? Then why care of some social issues and not others? This has nothing to with whether I agree/disagree with the decision or I care about any social issues; it's simply whether we should be using SO for social causes(to discuss, support, oppose or otherwise).
    – P.P
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:34
  • 66
    What contentious social issue next? Shall we change the logo to indicate StackOverflow's views of abortion, or guns, or Pacific trade, or whom the next U.S. President should be?
    – Ryan Lundy
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:49
  • 39
    got to agree with what you said, im straight and not american so this whole gay thing is none of my business and i believe in freedom and all, but if SO wants to decide promoting social causes, right now at this very moment, there are like 50 more important things, like today ISIS killed 150 civilian, perhaps some logo against that is better, so it should stay far away from all of this, cause if sometthing starts it will never ends. And perhaps some people are against same sex marriage and will be offended, so stay neutral
    – Lynob
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 23:32
327
votes

I disagree with the proposed temporary logo change. Why? Well it's simple, this website is all about programming, not about equality of people, equality of animals, the rights of whales, climate change, equality of religion, human rights, politics etc.

If you're happy about the options for gay couples to get married, well be happy about that. I don't dislike gays, I'm just totally not interested in the news. So I don't want this to get shoved down my throat. I would also expect a website focused on programming, to stay neutral when it comes to opinions about unrelated topics.

Besides this, where is the border? When should the logo be changed and when shouldn't it?

Let me give you a short example:

The Urgenda Foundation filed the "Climate Case" against the Dutch government. The Dutch government was defeated in this case. This never happened before, it's a revolutionary thing, major news in the Netherlands! Just like gay marriage is for the Americans. So why change the logo for the American news? And not for the Dutch news? I understand the fact that the SE office is in America. But I think, because this website is internationally used, the logo should not be changed (or only be changed for the Americans, but I would not encourage that).

http://www.urgenda.nl/en/climate-case/

Some things, to think about:

  • Should the logo also be changed if IS is defeated?
  • Should the logo be changed if the same happens in another country?
  • Should the logo be changed if Whale protection is finally be taken serious?
  • Should the logo be changed when many other endangered animals like tigers finally have "the right to speak"?
  • Pink ribbon (fight against breast cancer) logo?
  • Awareness for child abuse?
  • Progress in woman rights around the world?
  • Why wasn't to logo changed when "je suis charlie' or similar things where trending? (This one is especially about human rights)
  • Etc.

Well it feels like I'm wasting time, since everybody seems to be blinded by the news, and forgets that topics like these would normally be off-topic. What are we becoming? Some kind of social media discussion platform, based on opinions?

Back to programming...

26
  • 4
    It may of happened in america but it is worldwide news, a large government has just ruled in equality which can only open the doors for other countries. For the record, I am not gay, and I support your right to an opinion, as well as others just as equally
    – Sayse
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:28
  • 25
    @Sayse, the Dutch news is also worldwide, or at least for Europe. As it will affect the Climate Conference in Paris. And gives many opportunities for similar cases by foundations in many other countries in Europe.
    – Rolf ツ
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:33
  • 52
    What is it with the phrase "shoved down my throat"? It's a tiny 40x40 pixel logo. It has literally no impact on your ability to use the site, whatsoever. It doesn't change the sites behaviour or functionality in any way.
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:33
  • 53
    @Meagar, it may seem small, but as soon as I browsed to Stackoverflow I noticed it immediately (and I immediately knew what it was about). Then I started to search for the reason and found this topic.
    – Rolf ツ
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:34
  • 5
    "Should the logo be changed if the same happens in another country?" I'm sure by your answer you would think it would be a bad idea, but personally, I think it would be a brilliant show of international support if this was done for each country from now on that legalizes gay marriage. Especially considering the several international employees working for SE.
    – Kendra
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:36
  • 13
    @Kendra, the support for gay marriage is very very bad in Russia. Would the Russian Stackoverflow users approve?
    – Rolf ツ
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:37
  • 18
    @Rolfツ "I was able to notice that this exists because I looked closely, and went out of my way to follow up on it" is not even close to "this is being shoved down my throat".
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:38
  • 3
    @Sayse, I agree. But remember it's just an example.
    – Rolf ツ
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:40
  • 15
    Some people just wanna suck the joy out of everything. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 20:55
  • 32
    Some people think murica is the only country in the world Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 22:04
  • 34
    Not everyone will share the opinion that this is joyful news, its that simple. Personally I'd rather to stay neutral but it seems that certain ones feel its alright to force their opinions on others I'm just surprised at the source. Poor judgement call from SO.
    – user692942
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 22:05
  • 6
    Can't add this to Moosemans answer because its been locked (surprise surprise). @meagar That is not fair and by stating it you are clearly showing your bias. This is why these types of issues should be kept to social/political/religious forums not SO.
    – user692942
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 22:12
  • 2
    @Lankymart I deleted several answers when they strayed off-topic, both for and against. It had nothing to do with their content.
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 2:47
  • 11
    @meagar You also made quite a few derogatory comments of your own, with a strong bias towards a particular view. The fact you are doing this with a less then neutral view of the topic to me is both unfair and disappointing.
    – user692942
    Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 8:09
  • 7
    @Rolfツ The usual SO logo, the one that's been displayed every day for years, is rendered in orange and black. How much more support for the Dutch do you want?!
    – Caleb
    Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 16:00
283
votes

I am a straight non-American. Today's Supreme Court decision has nothing to do with me, you'd think. But it's still a huge thing for me because I believe that if I can enjoy both the comfort and the legal benefits of a happy marriage, it is a disgrace if another couple just as happily in love cannot, purely because they are gay.

As we Europeans do, I sometimes tend to have smug thoughts about how the USA is so backwards in one way or the other. Well, today they showed me, because unlike my American coworkers, I live in a country whose head of government is on record saying she is "uneasy" about the idea of marriage equality.

I hope that today's event triggers a change in the remaining strongholds of those antiquated attitudes, in Germany and in many other places. Very well knowing that there are many more problems to be solved, but still, this is a big step.

And that's why I believe that it's a global event that has a chance to impact, in the long run, each and every person in the world. And that includes all the programmers.

My vote is, "Hell yeah".

19
  • 2
    Hell Yeah! Me Too!
    – xrisk
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:03
  • 19
    Bravo @balpha, you speak for me too.
    – Sklivvz
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:08
  • 19
    The fact that people downvote such a positive answer like this is sad.
    – Bob Horn
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:10
  • 3
    This answer maxed out my vote count for the day. :) Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:16
  • 8
    @balpha for Bundeskanzler!
    – Max Staff
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:29
  • 2
    @BobHorn there unfortunately will always be intolerance.
    – Matt
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:45
  • 2
    @Matt Like when people have "...thoughts about how the USA is so backwards in one way or the other..."?
    – Lye Fish
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:51
  • 6
    A very polite and British "hell yeah" from me too. Here in the UK, marriage equality was brought in by a conservative Prime Minister, to only minor grumbles in his party.
    – halfer
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 20:48
  • 2
    Things can change quickly, just look at how far Ireland have come in a generation.
    – biziclop
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 20:54
  • 1
    @Tim, he might need to work on his discrimination against the poor, but hey, no-one's perfect :-).
    – halfer
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 21:42
  • 1
    @halfer Yes, fair point. I lack the... age and experience to see all these, especially with a more privileged upbringing. He seems to try though, with the minimum-wage-below-tax-threshold stuffs.
    – Tim
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 21:44
  • 3
    This answer is totally off-topic. I support gay marriage too. But if we should have a change in logo, then we should have a change in logo for other social issues too. Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 18:30
  • 1
    @dan-klasson I have answered the question and given my reasoning. You may disagree with it, but how does that make my answer "totally off-topic"?
    – balpha StaffMod
    Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 18:44
  • 4
    @BobHorn, I downvote not because it is positive or not, but because I disagree. In the years of SO, I have downvoted many positive, yet off-topic or misguided posts. It's not about positivity. Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 19:01
  • 4
    This small logo change is either an abuse or a green light for pushing environmental/social/political agendas through SO. Considering that SO community is mostly intentional and the current court decision only affects a minority of a minority of a minority then it will be highly hypocritical/unfair not to promote for e.g. environmental or internet freedom causes that effect everyone on the planet or on the internet.
    – S Bogdan
    Commented Jun 29, 2015 at 12:40
202
votes

Irrespective of the validity/significance/importance (or lack thereof) of any developments in the political/social arena, Stackoverflow has got nothing to do with it. Stackoverflow has a specific mission and getting involved with politics or good or evil in life isn't part of it.

22
  • 7
    Wrong. See my answer. This ruling directly affects SE. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:30
  • 67
    @Qix directly affects their payroll and HR perhaps, but it doesn't affect SE as a whole.
    – CubeJockey
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:32
  • 11
    You forget culture. Culture is a big thing. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:33
  • 38
    @Qix You say "...literally the last oppressed demographic of America...." Are you kidding me? What about atheists? What about minority rights, racism etc? Look at the list of people who are most unfavorably perceived and there are other groups of people who have it even worse. All I'm saying is that discrimnation doesn't just affect just one group but many and we need to stick to Stackoverflow's mission. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:34
  • 28
    @Qix whatever culture shift there may be has no bearing on how SE/SO operates. Business as usual for us trying to fix indentations and typos on someone's question.
    – CubeJockey
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:36
  • 5
    @Trobbins if you think that's all SE does, I don't think you have the bearings to be able to weigh in on such a discussion. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:37
  • 7
    @Qix I was being facetious, don't be quick to judge
    – CubeJockey
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:38
  • 7
    @Trobbins You know what else has no bearing on how SE/SO operates? The color of their logo. So let it change and move on. That doesn't prevent you from participating in the same way you always have.
    – Bob Horn
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:38
  • 18
    @BobHorn If it has no bearing then let's just move on and not change anything. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:38
  • 3
    @uhsarp I'm fine if it doesn't change and life goes on. I'm also fine with changing it and life goes on. How about we all be the same way and be fine with either approach? Let's not get all bent out of shape about it because the logo might change. It doesn't affect us either way. So if folks want to enjoy what happened, let them.
    – Bob Horn
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:42
  • 4
    @Bob I wasn't making a stand on the debate one way or another. I couldn't care less what SO/SE's logo was
    – CubeJockey
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:52
  • 4
    The right to marriage is not "politics". It has been politicised, but like marriage between anyone else it is simply a fundamental recognition in the eyes of a law that a couple is indeed a couple.
    – Gorbles
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 20:45
  • 8
    @Qix You obviously have a very clear agenda that doesn't mean though that anyone else's opinions are any less valid. That is the beauty of neutrality, today SO has crossed that line.
    – user692942
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 22:44
  • 9
    @Qix It clearly has. People should be free to accept same sex marriage as people should be free to reject it. That is after all what being neutral means. Placing logos or banners etc that advocates a particular socio-political agenda flies in the face of that. Plus the bias here to a particular agenda and shooting down those with a different view is frankly not what I expected from SO.
    – user692942
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 22:52
  • 5
    @Qix So your saying if you don't happen to share our beliefs /views you're not welcome on SO, nice message! This is why neutrality is so important, without it communities are divided. This is a terrible attitude to have extremely disappointed with the forcefulness of this agenda.
    – user692942
    Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 13:35
154
votes

Do not mix social issues with programming issues. There is no need for politics to be included on this website. IF you want politics, go to politics.stackexchange.com. Whether someone is a sandwich, gay, or has three penises, it shouldn't matter; the entire thing is a red herring.

EDIT: Because OP did not mention this in the original post, gay marriage is now legal nation-wide in my particular country. I did not know this.

27
  • 24
    This is not politics. This is about equality and people. Finally, it is no longer politics!
    – Tim
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:05
  • 138
    @Tim: This is a programming/coding website.
    – Don Larynx
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:07
  • 10
    For people. People who's lives have just changed? Why can't we celebrate the people here?
    – Tim
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:08
  • 12
    I invite you to read Joel's answer. "The point is that allowing EVERYONE to marry IS the neutral position."
    – hairboat Staff
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:08
  • 11
    Er, because I didn't realize that gay marriage is now legal nation-wide. Maybe OP should mention that in his OP. @abbyhairboat
    – Don Larynx
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:09
  • 5
    @Qix: I don't care for current events. I'm all for this, but OP needs to mention the context in the original post. P.S. I don't watch TV.
    – Don Larynx
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:10
  • 3
    @MoH. - At work?
    – BSMP
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:10
  • 3
    Also, some workplaces block social networks.
    – BSMP
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:14
  • 3
    If I like ponies and create a website for professional surgeons, should I change the logo to a pony at any time?
    – rr-
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:48
  • 4
    @rr-: If you want to, you can do. It's your website. You can set the logo to whatever you want.
    – Puppy
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:57
  • 20
    @Tim But what do marriages have to do with programming? I'd understand if the law concerned mostly programmers, but it applies to everyone so it's even less relevant to this specific site.
    – rr-
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:07
  • 8
    @Tim: It's literally not. I don't give a damn if the government sees two people as married or single. It's none of their business. Keep government out of the bedroom.
    – Lye Fish
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:57
  • 7
    @Tim: Because I don't think it's a good idea for StackOverflow to change its logo for the sake of something that's only relevant to some. Why are you trying to pit straight people against gays here? Your hostility is palpable.
    – Lye Fish
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 20:35
  • 5
    @Tim: Government marriage would be largely irrelevant to people if there were not certain benefits or rights attached. Anyone who feels they don't fit in to how government defines marriage (say like a polygamist, someone who wishes to remain single or someone who has a certain religious objection) has to forego those benefits. As long as marriage exists as a government institution, there will be parameters around it for inclusion, meaning there will be people excluded.
    – Lye Fish
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 21:02
  • 2
    @Tim: People of religion can be married without the government's "blessing". I think people just don't even think about it since it's such a long standing tradition for government to be involved. People who are religions can get married before their minister (or whatever religious leader). People who are not can make it entirely contractual if they wish. Other people can define whatever social structure they want. All of the above can be treated truly equally if government doesn't care about their personal lives.
    – Lye Fish
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 21:14
84
votes

By adding this logo and promoting it like a declaration sign, StackOverflow is taking the side of a social cause and a favor that many might agree or disagree (primarily opinion based), in America or around the world.

Based on the site's rules, if a question or answer is opinion-based, it is flagged for closing. Judging by its community rules, the nature of the site is to be opinion-neutral, no matter who has the opinion. Furthermore, StackOverflow should not express particular favors. It is a community-based coding Q&A Site and should express those who agree, along with those who disagree equally.

22
  • 15
    Vote to close as primarily opinion based.
    – Bart
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:41
  • 4
    Community based, yes. But the community does not own the site. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:44
  • 11
    There's a difference between taking a position and disrespecting. The flag does not disrespect anyone.
    – Sklivvz
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:45
  • 9
    @Bart With all the respect, I disagree. The answer is not opinion-based, but based on the site's rules. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:45
  • 1
    @Sklivvz the word "express" might make more sense here. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:46
  • 2
    This isn't user-submitted content to be voted on by the community. Stack Exchange is a company, and they own Stack Overflow, and they're based in the US. They are completely entitled to change their logo.
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:47
  • 10
    @NickL. No, it's driven by the people who own it, who are free to accept as much or as little community input as they want. They have historically accepted a lot, and continue to do so.
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:51
  • 2
    Just because I suggested it, and 300+ people agree doesn't mean they were forced into it.
    – Tim
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:54
  • 9
    The original logo was designed and selected by the community with the founders exercising just a little bit of editorial oversight, @NickL. I'd say that's probably a good model to follow for any major changes, and this isn't too much of a deviation. That said, I really hope we don't start doing this every week.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:56
  • 6
    My point is that the site should be neutral. This is not about my opinion or any others'. It is about a whole community. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 20:37
  • 2
    @NickL. it is neutral. It's neutral for equal rights.
    – Tim
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 21:10
  • 7
    @Tim with all the respect, it is not opinion-neutral. Someone might agree or disagree with it and still be members of the community. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 21:28
  • 9
    @Tim the topic is controversial. Those offended could also say they feel sorry for you, this is the point. Even by saying that it is rights-neutral can find people not agreeing. And SO is not a place for such controversial topics, it is a coding Q&A site. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 21:39
  • 2
    @Tim "dura lex sed lex " - the law is hard, but it is the law. The rules are specific and are decided from Humans. And, apart from that, you have Humans that do not agree with this for each one having his/her own reasons but being a part of the community at the same time. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 21:46
  • 3
    @meagar What nonsensical reasoning! The site is community driven without the community you have nothing. Accept input? Seriously?? They need input and for that reason should have more respect for all community members.
    – user692942
    Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 7:54
82
votes

I think this court decision is a huge step forward, but it's just that: a court decision. SO is not (was not) a platform for the endorsement of court decisions. From Google searches, it looks like American acceptance of gay marriage is at about 60%. Whatever you think of whether that number should get higher or lower as the years go by (I'd like to see it higher), it still means that 40% of Americans would see the endorsement of a court decision that they don't agree with if they go to SO (NB: the population who's actually likely to go to SO is probably skewed toward the 60%).

No matter what I think of any given political change, it's disconcerting to see a neutral programming Q&A site take a stance on a polarizing political issue. What will happen to the next big court decision that affects many people? If, e.g., abortion is ruled to be a fundamental human right, will the SO logo turn into a hospital with a car driving away from it? Or if fetuses are ruled to be legally protected from abortion, will the logo change to a healthy fetus in a rectangular womb? If the courts rule in favor of nationwide CCW reciprocity, will the overflowing stack be painted yellow to represent a chamber with a stream of brass flying out of it? What happens on SO if Ramadan is declared an official national holiday?

Will the responses to this question produce some meta-effect on the posts of people who voiced their disagreement with the logo change? What about the people who stayed quiet because they felt uncomfortable disagreeing with the majority? Unfortunately in this case, making some people feel more comfortable will mean making other people feel less comfortable, and I can't see the justification for that boiling down to anything but vengeance, selfishness, or schadenfreude. I thought SO wasn't about politics, but it looks like - today at least - SO is a place that will make those against gay marriage feel like they don't belong, even if they have programming questions or answers. And that, not this ruling on gay marriage, is what doesn't sit well with me.

18
  • 32
    "Is it truly inclusive if it excludes those against inclusiveness?" I wasn't prepared for this level of profoundness.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:59
  • I agree with this sentiment, but based on the voting on the question and moderator answers (which is how we judge feature-requests), there's no reason to not implement the "feature".
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:59
  • 17
    Couldn't agree more. I just wanted to program things but today I was like, "what". I'll make sure to make similar feature request on next GPL anniversary, it will be way more relevant and yet I bet it'll get turned down with a massive "slam".
    – rr-
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 20:04
  • Oops, will edit; thank you. :) Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 20:05
  • 1
    @Tim, you raise a good point - I'll edit my answer. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 20:37
  • Github also changed their logo. While not as strict, other programming sites have taken part in this movement. Not saying we have to do what everyone else does, but one day probably won't exclude too many programmers for long. Cheers Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 20:53
  • 2
    uhh.. christmas is a national holiday, in the US, where the SE is based
    – anon
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 21:10
  • I didn't know it was official. How disappointing. I'll change it to a different religious holiday. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 21:15
  • 6
    @BoltClock, is atheism a form of faith/religion? Is a blank whiteboard less neutral than one that contains messages encouraging neutrality? Is a null/nil/None reference more empty than a variable that hasn't been assigned? Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 22:28
  • 2
    @TigerhawkT3 This is an excellent, well thought out answer and I completely agree with the sentiment. I feel we may be in the minority though judging by the vote bashing aka The Meta Effect.
    – user692942
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 23:39
  • 1
    @Lankymart, my understanding is that the Meta effect refers to downvotes on a user's regular SO posts from Meta users seeking justice (which I think may have happened to me, but there were no clues such as "I'm downvoting this good answer because you said something dumb on Meta" comments, so it's probably mere paranoia). Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 23:51
  • @TigerhawkT3 It may not apply to meta content but the principle is the same. Also if votes on meta are just to show disagreement with an idea or view then why do highly voted down answers get greyed out and unable to be voted on?
    – user692942
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 23:55
  • @Lankymart I believe some got locked because of the volume of comments. Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 4:32
  • @justcool393 Possibly but I'm not being funny but what did they expect? It's extremely shortsighted.
    – user692942
    Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 7:48
  • 2
    You sir, are my hero, "If the courts rule in favor of nationwide CCW reciprocity, will the overflowing stack be painted yellow to represent a chamber with a stream of brass flying out of it?" Commented Jun 28, 2015 at 14:59
69
votes

I don't know what all this gay marriage stuff is; I just like rainbows.

Let's do it.


This is a huge day for an oppressed demographic in America. StackOverflow, being HQ'd in New York, is directly affected as now they can guarantee their widely diverse employee-base gross benefits that aren't catered to their non-fabulous (but equally awesome) coworkers.

Google is doing it. Twitter is doing it. Many, many sites are doing it.

So why should we, as a programming Q&A site, do it??

Because there is such a thing as a gay programmer. StackExchange was created by one.

In the words of Joel Spolsky, bye Felicia.


It is done. LoveOverflow

20
  • 19
    (full disclosure - gay American here, quite happy about it) Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:24
  • 61
    Not sure of "last oppressed demographic" but +1 on the rest.
    – David Fullerton Mod
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:30
  • 33
    Pretty sure several other demographic groups could consider themselves oppressed. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:31
  • 12
    +1 but definitely not the last oppressed demographic
    – Mo H.
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:31
  • Edited; obviously is arguable. But thank you :) Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:32
  • Thanks @KasraRahjerdi - just woke up, can't spell today. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:59
  • 11
    @Qix always have faith in the Stack Overflow community to have pedantic fixes ready to go :)
    – Kasra Rahjerdi Staff
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 17:59
  • 6
    @FactorMystic - PHP developers, for example. Maybe we can have a 'PHP Day' soon? Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:15
  • 20
    @MartinJames PHP devs are only oppressed by the language they're using. ;)
    – reirab
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:55
  • 14
    I don't know what all this gay marriage stuff is; I just like rainbows. Hell, add a unicorn and some pancakes and we could even keep it permanently. It fits SO pretty well in my opinion. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:33
  • 1
    @falsarella will do. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 20:23
  • 9
    "Google is doing it. Twitter is doing it. Many, many sites are doing it." ...and if we all follow the lemmings ...
    – IAbstract
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 21:41
  • 7
    "Google is doing it"... but only if you search for a very specific topic, that's different than just displaying it for any topic.
    – Rolf ツ
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 22:18
  • 2
    i'm not gay, gay marriage and america is none of my business, but I'm totally against marrying someone other than a developer :p no java or .net developers otherwise I'd rather stay single :p
    – Lynob
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 23:20
  • 2
    Strongly as I agree with the "Marry whomever you love" sentiment, Jessica Alba doesn't seem agreeable with the idea... Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 20:05
46
votes

Since it is past end of day EST, this answer is largely moot, but it seems apt.

I am perhaps reminded of when Steve Jobs died. And then Dennis Ritchie AND John McCarthy died in short order. There was an announcement for Steve Jobs, it was in the top banner. There was no eulogy for the other two. The conclusion that the SO team made was that this was a mistake.

My point is that events, no matter how momentous, do not belong in the icon any more than they belong in the notification.

0
41
votes

Millions of people seem to care what the daily Google Doodle is. In fact, actual news outlets report them as actual news! They aren't always controversial, but they are often about something I either never knew about, or never cared about. I can choose to learn more or not. I can choose to care - or not.

Same thing with this. We could stand to put out regular reminders that we're part of a bigger world - without needing to be the one standing on the soapbox. Individuals can embrace the opportunity to learn, and sometimes celebrate - or not.


For the record, I'm a North-American male, hetero and in a 3-decade long committed Christian relationship. For me, none of that has a bearing on what others should be allowed to do. I love many friends and family who do not share my beliefs, choices, or orientation. I hurt for anyone marginalized for theirs.

The US court's decision has come 10 years after Canada's - and I'm glad that it did finally come. I hope it will continue to build support for gender-ish equality - and that we don't all sit back and think it's done.

In her speech at my son's High School commencement ceremony yesterday, a prominent local official recalled their production of The Laramie Project as her highlight of the graduates' years in their school. "As a person who has faced discrimination and challenges for my own sexual orientation", I'm paraphrasing, "I'm proud of the community in this school that not only allowed and supported a dramatic investigation into bigotry and hatred against gays, but which actively promotes dialog and inclusion."

For me, that statement was as impactful as the milestone of having a successful graduate. I grew up surrounded by mistrust and prejudice, and although I was straight, was the target of "Anti-Faggot" verbal and physical abuse. There is no room for that in any enlightened society.

When my son and his friends learned and performed that play - reflecting the whole range of genders & orientations in their school - it built stronger relationships, and personal pride for everyone involved. I think that matters. But that's beside the point.

In the end, whether we have a rainbow logo for a while celebrating support for a judgment we may or may not personally embrace, a yellow one in support of soldiers fighting wars we may or may not agree with, a pink one in support of fighting cancers many of us will never have - is it really so disruptive to be worth the angst?

11
  • 1
    And speaking of Google: they don't have a doodle for this (yet), but they did put "YouTube and Google are proud to celebrate marriage equality. #ProudtoLove" under the search box. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:55
  • @ThisSuitIsBlackNot Yet you will notice a lack of change of icon on Facebook. Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 1:58
  • 1
    @cwallenpoole Who said anything about Facebook? Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 2:53
  • 1
    @ThisSuitIsBlackNot Facebook is another major digital company, but it has not changed its icon. Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 13:38
  • @cwallenpoole Nobody said they did. This answer talked about the Google Doodle, and so did I. I think you're reading too much into my comment. Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 13:46
  • @ThisSuitIsBlackNot The Doodle didn't change. It is more subtle. Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 13:47
  • 1
    @cwallenpoole I know the Doodle didn't change. That's why I said "they don't have a doodle for this." Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 13:53
  • @ThisSuitIsBlackNot How I read this: your point, "look at this company which has changed! That is important." My point, "But this other company did not. Is is telling, too." Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 13:58
  • 4
    Rathole. The point of my mention of the doodle was that while some people can and do pay attention to it, others can ignore it yet still use the offered service. People can choose to ignore a modified SO logo, and still use SO for it's intended purpose.
    – Mogsdad
    Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 13:59
  • 1
    @cwallenpoole: facebook.com/celebratepride
    – Ry- Mod
    Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 18:45
  • 5
    Hey - you've unwittingly provided the solution which will make everyone happy! Just change the StackOverflow logo every day ala Google. Call it the Soodle. Then no-one has to continue arguing about "why only this one time?"
    – Fletch
    Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 22:37
38
votes

Joel - I get it, it's your site and this is a big event - but this is a slippery slope. I'm all for the Supreme Court decision, but now what? Are you going to change the logo for something affecting women's rights outside of America? Are you going to change the logo for victims of a global catastrophe? Are you going to change the logo when another event happens? How far will it go? I agree with the decision and I think it's awesome - but I think you've set a bad precedent with this for a global community. If SO endorses one issue, it must start to endorse all of them or risk questions like "why this event, but not this one?".

Luckily, the change wasn't intrusive, but just be careful not to muddy the waters. You own Stack Overflow, but it's bigger than you or me now - it's grown to transcend culture, creed, location, everything. I think that Stack Overflow endorsements have the potential to reverse that, even if it's in good spirit.

16
  • 3
    Have you even read his answer?
    – Tim
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 22:11
  • 3
    Google does this kind of thing all the time. What's the harm? Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 22:12
  • 4
    @Tim I read the answer, yes.
    – user677526
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 22:12
  • 17
    @200_success Google does this type of thing all the time. SO doesn't. My opinion - either you do it all the time, for everything, as Google does, or you can't really do it at all. I don't mind SO swinging one way or the other, but I'd rather not see SO cherry-pick occasionally, if that makes sense; I think it has the potential to undermine what SO has become. (The community content here is a good example.)
    – user677526
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 22:15
  • 16
    Who said it has to be "all or nothing"? Five year old kids ask "Why did he get a cookie but not me? It's unfair!" Life is unfair, nothing new there. It does not have to be all or nothing. No one is preventing you from creating a meta question whenever you want the logo changed. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 23:12
  • 6
    If SO endorses one issue, it must start to endorse all of them This is a false dilemma. or risk questions like Look, there is someone on Meta asking us to require people to comment when down-voting every other day. All you have to do the 2+ times it gets asked is to mark it as a duplicate and move on.
    – BSMP
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 23:26
  • 1
    @200_success Google can be and is wrong in many cases and that's OK. People work there and people make mistakes but inferring that something is correct just because Google did it is a fallacy or more clearly argument from authority which contradicts the very foundations on which SO was built.
    – matcheek
    Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 7:30
  • 1
    @matcheek How's this for an argument from authority: It's their site, and they can make their logo look however they want it to. Deal with it or leave. Don't let the door hit 'ya. Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 16:54
  • 1
    @ChrisBaker Let's forget for a moment that in no way you are responding to my argument -objectiveness, not authority laid the foundations of SO, and focus on what you wrote.The power of SO comes from the joint efforts of professionals around the globe, not from the owners of SO - they merely let it happen. This single act set the precedence in the software-focused community to support a particular social cause what inadvertently resulted in strong divide. From now on people will be bringing their social causes to the table and SO will have to act on them or admit its bias and intolerance
    – matcheek
    Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 17:55
  • 2
    Or, do what they want because it is their site. I think you're over-estimating the number of people that care either way. Apathy is powerful -- it's the reason most of our problems exist. A majority of the users won't notice the logo, understand the context, or participate in the inevitable complaining. Those apathetic users, combined with contributors like me who rightly suppose SE can do what they want, comprise a vast majority of the community. I'm not saying you can't complain, but if there's any division, it's because you're complaining, not because there's a real problem Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 20:23
  • @SimonAndréForsberg : "Life is unfair, nothing new there." ... So the bottom line of your comment is "Don't stand up to / comment on things you don't think are appropriate but just ignore them because life is unfair anyway"? In my opinion life should be fair and anyone should be free and encouraged to point out if he/she thinks that something is unfair. The logo change says "we're in favour of equal opportunities for all couples" but it also says "we don't treat social / political issues equally". The logo change is to celebrate equalization by the discrimination of other topics. Commented Jun 28, 2015 at 10:10
  • 1
    @Pixelchemist a) It's funny you bring up the fairness again, because as you said, this logo change is all about fairness and equality. b) As I said, no one is preventing you from creating a meta post for whatever issue you want. I believe this logo change got through because of the many upvotes vs. the many downvotes. If you can accomplish the same thing another time, I think it's possible that there will be more such logo changes. Commented Jun 28, 2015 at 12:00
  • Totally agree.. IMO Joel is just looking at what happens in US and supports it(or sometimes maybe not), while the majority of the users coming to this site are from outside US. Commented Jun 29, 2015 at 5:03
  • @SimonAndréForsberg a) That is my point: Celebrate fairness by potential unfairness is not quite THE idea. b) Even if every logo change request that had an equal (or higher) upvotes vs downvotes ratio or number on meta would be shown on the main site (I doubt it, actually), I don't think you'd end up treating issues equally. The site blog is a place for things affecting SE itself (and for the current topic as well since one can argue that SE is affected). Commented Jun 29, 2015 at 8:49
  • 4
    This is the old relative privation argument. How can we focus on X when Y is happening? If you talk about Z, then you have to talk about Q because that's bad/unfair/wrong too. It's a logical fallacy, and an enormous waste of time and energy. Commented Jun 29, 2015 at 14:27
32
votes

I am no longer active on this site I thought where a Q&A site about programming. IMO this site/company has made an abusive move flagging (literally) its sociopolitical agenda.

I am absolutely not accepting being used as part of or associated with any political or social agenda without consent.

[...] Couldn't be more relevant to Stack Overflow.
- Joel Spolsky

In that case the site has been dishonest at best. This "relevance" should have been stated clearly before users signed up to what seems to be a technical programming oriented site, so they can choose to not being used as part of this or any other agenda (which it must be if it "couldn't be more relevant"...).

(And now, lets see tolerance in practice...!)

45
  • 39
    "I am absolutely not accepting ... (And now, lets see tolerance in practice...!)"
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:54
  • 15
    Okay then. Bye byes for the weekend. How are we forcing you to do anything?
    – Tim
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:54
  • 19
    If you absolutely can't stand that small little speck of rainbow in your corner, just "boycott" the site until it's gone. No one's making you stay and contribute. If it bothers you that badly that the owners and maintainers of the site wish to express their joy about something that directly affects them in a small and non-in-your-face way, then walk away from the site. As I said in a comment on an answer below, how is this is any way speaking for you if you have no control over the changes made by the team?
    – Kendra
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:56
  • 4
    The relevance is a corollary of SO's openness to all people and indifference to their nonprogramming features, as explained in Joel's post.
    – Frank
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:56
  • 7
    I don't see your name on the company roster there bud. Stack doesn't need your consent for anything. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:57
  • 27
    I'm not sure what your last sentence is about: Downvotes are not a show of intolerance, they're a show of disagreement. People are still allowed to disagree with each other.
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:06
  • 4
    @Oded if you don't know the difference between accepting and tolerance then I feel sorry for you.
    – user1693593
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:12
  • 11
    @Oded wrong! I am not accepting being used for a political purpose. That doesn't mean I cannot tolerate the agenda. Tolerance in the last sentence is more about you who cry loud about tolerance, is able to tolerate opinions that against you own
    – user1693593
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:15
  • 9
    @K3N As a 55k user you should know that downvotes on meta mean disagreement...
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:15
  • 4
    No one is using you. No one.
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:15
  • 8
    @Oded when the site/company flag a sosiopolitcal cause giving the impression that "everbody" (ie. users) are on-board, that is abusing its position (regardless if users are on-board or not).
    – user1693593
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:17
  • 9
    @SterlingArcher without the users contribution this company would be nothing
    – user1693593
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:17
  • 35
    @K3N Youtube changed it's logo. Google changed its logo. Twitter changed its logo. These are platforms that are used to tout every possible political philosophy imaginable. Nobody thinks that "everybody" who uses these services are in it for the politics, or that they support one particular political view. This is just an insane conversation to be having. Toronto flies a pride flag every year. Nobody, anywhere, ever, could possibly think that that means only one political opinion exists in a city of 10 million people because they fly a flag for a day or a week. Please, drop it.
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:20
  • 12
    Lets see: "leave", "walk away", "too much negativity", "drop it", "Stack doesn't need your consent for anything". I am glad too so many self-thinking individual who knows exactly what they are talking about, This is just sad..
    – user1693593
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:31
  • 34
    I'm sorry, but these "love it or leave it" comments are pretty unhelpful. It's a weekend logo change; you can still use the site just as you were yesterday. This may affect a lot of Stack Overflow users' personal lives, but is pretty unlikely to actually change how the site works - if you're ok with that, you're safe just ignoring this.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 20:06
29
votes

Rephrasing one of the standout comments:

The SO community is international, so I'm not sure why it should be affected by a decision of an USA court. Maybe it would be more appropriate to do this the International Gay Pride Day?


My words: From The day I started using this platform,I never had a thought that its a company in USA or wherever.From the day I started using this,i thought that It made all of us flourish, and had Not divided us by these harsh worldly topics. I am not gona leave or run away from anything, But the touch of partiality(words like nationality etc.) was something that was not expected from this platform atleast


Point is: We need to keep these social issues as much away as we can from this community, We all are aware of the past; discussing these type of things had brought bitter results, because these may be completely opinion based.

15
  • 14
    An entire country just gave its citizens freedom of marriage. I'd say that's cause for celebration. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:21
  • 24
    SO community is international
    – nobalG
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:22
  • 5
    Calm your bold down, I would put a lot of money betting that international gay people are still happy over this win. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:22
  • 2
    The community may be international, but the company is not. It is an American company.
    – Kendra
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:23
  • It's also on the front page of BBC News (as of now at least). You can celebrate something that doesn't directly affect you.
    – Geobits
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:24
  • 2
    oops, But from the day i started using this platform,I never had a thought that its a company in USA or wherever.From the daya I started using this, It made all of us flourish, and had Not divided us by these harsh worldly topics. @Kendra
    – nobalG
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:26
  • 5
    @SterlingArcher: To play devil's advocate there, Ireland did the same a few weeks ago, but SO didn't change the logo.
    – jscs
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:27
  • 1
    SO is based in the US. SO is not based in Ireland.
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:29
  • 2
    So, the international community can't celebrate???
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:29
  • 1
    I have given an answer to this.
    – balpha StaffMod
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:29
  • 5
    Living in Switzerland I went "Yeah, one down, many more to go" ... so it affects me even though I'm not there. With all the horrible global news we hear on a daily basis, this has brightened my day to an extent where I think we should be able to handle a rainbow coloured logo.
    – Bart
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:32
  • 2
    So you got a peek behind the proverbial curtain and found out that Stack Overflow was a thing in a place run by people? Oh and by the way, that chrome extension that was going around that turned every instance of the word 'cloud' on a page to 'butt'? Totes gay agenda. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 21:00
  • 2
    Another social issue to rage against meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/270032/…
    – random
    Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 21:26
  • 1
    What about those in the USA who do not celebrate over this decision? Who might be saddened over it?
    – SAHM
    Commented Jun 28, 2015 at 1:24
  • 1
    As someone who has received down votes for programming questions that are not very good, and has been working harder to make sure my questions are relevant, I am very confused by this. I am constantly reminded on the right bar as I am asking a question, "Is this about programming?" Is this about programming?
    – SAHM
    Commented Jun 28, 2015 at 1:32
22
votes

Joel is gay. A number of the SE employees are gay. This platform is the direct result of their years of blood, sweat, and endless nights. Of course the stupid icon should give a nod to their struggle which is soon coming to an end.

If you have a visceral reaction to a rainbow icon, you should try meeting some of the people that work there :)

7
  • 11
    There was probably very little blood involved, though.
    – user1596138
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:09
  • 1
    @Jhawins have you met @Zypher?
    – MDMarra
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:10
  • 3
    No, but he probably doesn't bleed over servers very often.
    – user1596138
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:13
  • 17
    @Jhawins These are the words of a person who never had to assemble a computer in a micro ATX case :)
    – biziclop
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 20:57
  • 1
    only to start a new struggle...namely, being married, that is! Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 0:16
  • @MDMarra many SE employees in Ireland are gay too. Did it change the logo when Irish people voted in a referendum (not a 5-4 court ruling) for equal rights? Commented Jun 28, 2015 at 21:59
  • Nop but I would have been OK with that too
    – MDMarra
    Commented Jun 28, 2015 at 22:01
8
votes

I'm going to go out on a limb and try to express my opinions over the Internet. As a straight Asian-American with no close friends or family members who are gay (though I do know gay people, I define "close" as being sufficiently comfortable and open with someone to be able to regularly discuss sensitive issues like this), I arguably have nothing to add to this conversation. I haven't suffered discrimination for my sexual orientation, and I can barely scratch the legal technicalities of the issue.

And yet, I support gay rights. I say "yet" because I don't think I have any personal evidence or even anecdotal experience to justify my stance (unlike many questions on this site, which can be answered with logical and objective reasoning). To answer the question (for the lurking mods and downvoters), I support the colored logo, but not without reservations. The first major obstacle is the "primarily opinion-based" reason for closure of a question. The issue of gay rights will inevitably spark opinions, which can and will spill forth in a never-ending deluge (remember, friends, that free speech only protects you from the government arresting you for your words, and doesn't protect you from offending others).

This brings up the first paradox (and point of contention): Stack Overflow is structured so that users reward other users' objective correctness (as demonstrated by the "primarily opinion-based" reason for closing a question), yet this issue is inherently divisive: objective correctness (which I believe exists on the side of gay rights) can't and won't be uncovered by users who are entrenched in absolutely opposite positions. In other words, we are using a medium that is designed for exactly the opposite of what is going on right now. If you want a medium that is designed for this discussion, try an in-person conversation where participants try to demonstrate some level of empathy (it's tough). Snips aside, you won't communicate well over the internet, and especially not on this site (oh the irony, I know).

"But Alex, didn't you say you supported gay rights?"

I did say that, but that doesn't mean I automatically disagree with anyone who even smells like they think differently than me. Disparaging, discounting, and mocking others for their opinions is dangerously close to (read: exactly the same as) discrimination. I would love to say that same-sex marriage is an unquestionable right or a fact, but the fact is that this society holds itself up by standards that we have collectively agreed to, and things that are "facts" now may disgust people ten or twenty years from now. Sometimes these standards are cruel, exploitative, and disgusting, and we never know so until significant damage has been done.

In that way, American democracy always seems to fall behind: as the gap widens between a majority and minority, the status quo (which favors the majority, which is why it's the status quo in the first place) is perpetuated until a breaking point is reached; even those who benefit from the status quo see its harm. Then the status quo is reevaluated and shifted. But regardless of where it lies, the status quo cannot continuously shift (it's like a discrete function). The disadvantaged will become more disadvantaged; to everyone who has, even more will be given. But the important thing is that we maintain awareness of the status quo and its effects on not just ourselves but on those around us.

It's funny because I was struggling to finish the paragraph above this one while trying to deal with the second point of contention: that SO is a programming/coding website and isn't meant to or supposed to promote social causes. But there's a little number on my profile that I recently discovered after my hiatus from SO: Impact. The whole site isn't just about getting points; it's about helping people. That's why we close questions, have moderators, and collectively work together to reward thoughtful, informative, thorough, and clear solutions. This is a very liberal view of the purpose of SO, I concede. But if you've ever stumbled upon a perfectly crafted answer or provided one for someone else on this site, you know how it feels to help others. Actually, that's an unfair assumption. You might not know, in which case, here's a quick crash course: helping others feels awesome. And protip #2: there are more ways to help others than helping them fix a bug or understand a programming concept. SO is about people. The colored logo acknowledges the discrimination that a group of people have endured, fought against, and finally defeated.

(When you find that anything written above is misguided, feel free to downvote, flag, comment, ban, or whatever. Though, disclaimer round 2, I'm no expert on this topic and likely will be exposed as a complete idiot if you do so. But I'd rather listen and learn from others than shut them out, no matter which side of the issue they're on.)

3
votes

I'm in full support of this notion, as a heterosexual, non-religious male. I normally don't butt into these types of politics etc, but a couple of these answers are just disgusting. Calling it hate speech, or throat shoving.

All humans have basic rights, rights that existed long before the foundations of any religion.

"Judge not lest ye be judged yourself."

Gay marriage is legal now on a federal scale. Federal. Separation of church and state. If a little rainbow logo in support of basic freedom of love is too much, kindly downvote, but don't call it hate speech, or idealistic throat shoving.

Support your fellow humans, people, otherwise, what is humanity worth?

Edit: unintended irony: Even Sterling Malory Archer would be ok with this (see, avatar)

7
  • 7
    "What is humanity worth" only what its code is worth, of course!
    – rr-
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:10
  • "If a little rainbow logo in support of basic freedom of love is too much, kindly downvote" yes very true. That's what we do for every other feature-request.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:17
  • 3
    For those for it, this simple, tiny sign of support is huge. For those against, well, tomorrow it'll be gone and you can forget it ever happened.
    – Jongware
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:17
  • 13
    "Judge not lest ye be judged yourself." - don't forget that "judging" here refers to judging people, not their actions. Judging actions and avoiding or refraining from or pleading/encouraging others against sinful actions is normal and expected of Christians.
    – Vesper
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:56
  • 1
    Gay marriage is legal now on a federal scale. Federal. Good for you, but we are not from the same country. Look at the map into Active Users tab. I have nothing against that particular law (if it's good for people, be so), just, it doesn't affect me anyhow, I don't care. I just don't like how narrowed is this celebration.
    – TLama
    Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 10:06
  • 1
    This judgment relates specifically to the USA. SO/SE is much, much bigger than that.
    – ClickRick
    Commented Jun 27, 2015 at 21:22
  • 1
    @Vesper Fighting for same-sex marriage rights and getting married to a same-sex partner is a thoroughly deliberate set of actions. It's absurd to claim that judging those actions is not a judgement of the person who poured their soul into them. Commented Jun 29, 2015 at 17:17
-11
votes

This may be a place for programming Q&A, but it is also a place of people; people are from everywhere, and things happen to them. Sometimes, those things are important enough to change their world and, by definition, our world.

A part of StackExchange has just witnessed something monumental. And it is precisely because it happened to us that we should recognize it. Changing the logo temporarily sounds like a great way of showing the world that we are not ignorant about the things happening to and around our members, and of reminding ourselves that we are more than just a forum: we are a community.

3
  • 16
    A "community" comes together to agree on issues...This "community" has agreed a long time ago that issues discussed within it be 100% programming based. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 20:37
  • @ojonugwaochalifu yeah, although not on meta. meta is for questions about the site...
    – Tim
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 20:44
  • 5
    @ojonugwaochalifu Here is a quote taken directly from the 'What is Meta' page: "Meta Stack Overflow is the part of the site where users discuss the workings and policies of Stack Overflow rather than discussing programming itself." Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 20:45
-27
votes

Yes, because one of the goals of SO is to demonstrate its users' political correctness. And given how this goal is relevant to the other goals of this site (some programming related stuffs). I think SO should change the logo everyday to reflect our support on feminism, anti-racism, LGBT rights and all the other stances US supreme court holds.

5
  • 15
    ......... what?
    – enderland
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 21:14
  • 2
    This must be the end of civilization.
    – TLama
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 21:20
  • @TLama That hasn't happened yet? :P
    – Tim
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 21:32
  • 2
    Uhh, yeah do support feminism etc. But tbh I think this is a major step for the world. Keep the sarcastic tones down.
    – Tim
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 21:33
  • @enderland It's a sarcastic answer.
    – DBedrenko
    Commented Jun 29, 2015 at 15:32
-71
votes

Being a Christian, I must oppose. The primary point is that Stack Overflow does not care whether there are gays in the outer world, they care for programming, helping, general goodness. Someone being gay is plainly irrelevant to the community reaction to his actions, questions, answers or comments. Therefore positioning SO as "gay friendly" adds nothing to attitude of SO community to actual homosexual people, but has a serious potential to distract outside community into believing that SO promotes gay movement by bearing the six-striped rainbow flag.

tl;dr Please don't.

On a side note: Asking a question at SO is a privilege, it's granted by SO to those that satisfy several constraints, these are written in the TOS. I have to remind that marriage is also a privilege awarded to those who desire to live happily ever after until Death do them part, and not a right. Not everyone are entitled to be married, as not everyone is entitled to post a question at SO and not get scoffed at due to their question being destructive to the community. So, while I understand the CEO's alignment to show his joy to the latest decision of the Supreme Court, this borders speaking for everyone and thus is destructive.

64
  • 44
    What does it matter if you are Christian? I get that we are a neutral community but this is still a huge event
    – Matt
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:18
  • 24
    The rights granted by government and the status granted by religion are different things. Don't confuse the two.
    – Cypher
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:19
  • 29
    I'm Christian. 21 Century dude.
    – Tim
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:19
  • 55
    As an "actual homosexual person", I have to say that positioning SO/SE as gay friendly has meant everything to me. I have felt welcome here and distinctly unwelcome in many other spaces.
    – hairboat Staff
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:19
  • 13
    Is the inverse true? Does the lack of rainbow colored flag indicate that we are against the gay movement? Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:19
  • 20
    Of all the arguments against this, comparing marriage rights to the ability to vote on a Q&A web site has got to be the most nonsensical.
    – BSMP
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:19
  • 12
    I too consider myself a Christian, but I think it's equally as irrelevant to the conversation as Joel stating that he's gay. I think the conversation is about whether or not the SE network should get behind social causes (be it this one or something else) by publicly waving the banner of the cause. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:21
  • 20
    Being another devote Christian, I see absolutely zero wrong with the owners and maintainers of the site deciding they wish to change one small part of the design for a day or two to show their support for a cause that directly affects them. "...marriage is also a privilege... and not a right." In America, we are supposed to be guaranteed the right to, and I quote, "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." The pursuit of happiness includes marriage, therefore it is a right to get married. "this borders speaking for everyone and thus is destructive." Can everyone change the icon?
    – Kendra
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:22
  • 12
    As both a Christian and a bi lady, I can see room for celebrating the awesome step towards a lot more people being able to have a little more happiness in their lives in a public way. Knowing SE doesn't care who I love or who I am, just the cool knowledge I can bring to the sites makes me all the happier to hang out and be a part of the awesome.
    – user1080786
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:28
  • 8
    "This proposed action is IMO destructive" How is this action destructive? How is painting an image on a website that takes up next to no space on your screen destructive? I could see that argument, or your "speaking for everyone" argument if anyone could go in and change that logo, but only those who run this site can. They are speaking for them, not for everyone.
    – Kendra
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:30
  • 27
    Please don't compare Stack Overflow's standards of quality to the government telling consenting adults what they can and cannot do. This is the kind of ridiculous thinking that leads people to scream "but my freedom of speech! I thought this was America" when they get asked to keep their voices down in a movie theatre. A private corporation telling you how to use their website or property is not the same as the government imposing restrictions on freedom.
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:32
  • 57
    "Being a Christian, I must oppose" - I strongly disagree with the implication that being a Christian mandates one's position on this subject. Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:43
  • 11
    "Not everyone are entitled to be married" this is why we can't have nice things Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 18:51
  • 14
    @Vesper Stack Overflow community elects the mods. We don't pick them.
    – Adam Lear StaffMod
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:42
  • 14
    @Vesper What do you mean by "who stays and who doesn't"? Folks resign sometimes, but beyond that, they serve indefinitely. Our policies (including activity) are out in the open on meta and in the election descriptions. (And moderators don't get paid.)
    – Adam Lear StaffMod
    Commented Jun 26, 2015 at 19:46

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