1217
votes

I've been using Stack Overflow for a few years, and initially most questions you asked got a positive reception: happy comments and answers, people that tried to help you out regardless of the way you worded it. Of late the tendency is to simply close or put on hold most questions, or downvote them, or make fun of the writing or the style.

I use GameDev SE too, and I find it much more positively minded. As a simple metric, compare my questions on GameDev vs my questions on Stack Overflow. See the multitude of closed questions and/or downvotes on Stack Overflow, while on GameDev every question was well received and has at least one answer.

Now I don't have files of hard facts to prove anything apart from a growing feeling that Stack Overflow is becoming very negative of late. Pretty much every intelligent question I've tried to ask of late gets downvotes, while silly technical issues get well received.

Firstly, why is this? Is it that moderators are getting egoistic about their powers and like to close or "put on hold" questions as a kind of power display? Is it growing frustration with "noobs" who ask "silly questions" that "should be deleted"? Or is it just that programming is a tough job and makes once happy people into irritable people because they're facing horrid technical issues day in, day out?

Secondly, whatever the case, whatever the cause, what can be done to improve the attitude (positivity) of the Stack Overflow users/moderators such that you don't feel scared to ask a question?

I'm not trying to criticize anybody or make a statement, I'm actually asking this out of desperation. The most useful, incredible programming community on the web is turning sour, and I really don't know what I should change (even in myself) to help make it work.

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54 Answers 54

315
votes

Thank you for this discussion!

As a clear noob, I have a few suggestions which would be very helpful for me (as a noob) to understand how not to annoy people so much.

  1. HIGH-REP PEOPLE: I came here to get better at something very difficult. I look up to you and think you are awesome. I am not trying to annoy you. Don't make the mistake of treating me like a child by simply anonymously downvoting something I ask that you don't like. Tell me, please. I don't care - say something MEAN if you have to: "too long", "already asked" "google search this", "obvious homework problem". I would rather be embarrassed five times in a row and finally GET IT than annoying everyone forever.

    Which brings me to my concrete requests …

  2. A mandatory voting dropdown menu should be required for ALL DOWNVOTING. This should not affect overall rep points, but if people simply cannot be bothered to say why a question/answer is bad, offenders will NEVER get better. The menu should be simple; again, it would just be helpful to know "too long", "already asked", "too general", "too short", "not clear", "bad grammar", "other" …anything is better than nothing. Please consider this! It does not need to be anything fancy, but if someone can click once to downvote, they can click twice to select an option from a dropdown.

  3. A ranking feature, in addition, or in place of or in addition to the voting. Simple ranks maybe - beginner, moderate, and expert. That way, if I am a noob, I can easily find all the noob questions to answer. When I become moderate I can look at those. Then, for all you experts out there complaining of repeated questions - you won't have to be BORED! If you answer noob ranked questions, you will know what you are signing up for.

    I would not mind getting downvotes so much if they could actually be USEFUL. I have other noob friends on this site and sometimes it feels like people downvote solely because of rep point bias. I don't care as much about "negative" or "grumpy" attitudes as I do that this site and community ADAPTS and PROGRESSES with the changing circumstances.

    If the only presence that a noob can have on here is a burden then this site and community has already failed and you are going to be responsible for that, not the noobs.

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551
votes

Why is Stack Overflow so negative of late?

I hate to pile on, but I couldn't resist summarizing the problem. And I apologize ahead of time for any potentially offensive language that I might use.

Basically there are 4 camps of users on Stack Overflow:

  1. The "caretakers" who want to keep the site clean and with good content.
  2. The "help vampires" who flood the site with bad/duplicate questions who only want their question answered and care nothing for the site.
  3. The "repwhores" who answer everything they can (or can't).
  4. The ones who no longer give a shit.

These camps are not mutually exclusive. Personally, I started as a 3. Now, I'm half-way between 1 and 4.

But for the most part:

  • 2 and 3 love each other. They should get married.
  • 1 hates 2 because they're flooding the site making good questions impossible to find.
  • 1 hates 3 because they're encouraging 2 to keep going.
  • 2 hates 1 because 1 constantly downvotes/closes/deletes/flames 2.
  • 3 hates 1 because they keep closing/deleting the questions that 3 likes to answer.
  • 1 and 3 have all the moderation powers, but only 1 cares to use them.
  • 4 is sitting on the sideline shaking their heads...
  • 1 hates 4 because 4 isn't helping the situation.

With so much hate, there's going to be conflict.


Artist's impression added with permission (dot source)


Image credit to sehe.

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  • 209
    I think you are missing a camp: 5. Those users who visit the site to solve their problems, and who like to help others. Like 1 they want to have nice content, but their number one criterion is "is it helpful (and civil)"? They don't care much about "is it a good match for SE/constructive" and are frustrated by the deletionism of 1. They dont't care much about 2, answer the questions if it is not much effort, otherwise ignore them. They don't care about 3 either, and find the grudge of 1 against 3 silly. Let them have the rep they can get, if they're having fun and contributing useful content.
    – jdm
    Commented Apr 26, 2014 at 9:42
  • 61
    this may be the best answer ever posted on MSO Commented Apr 27, 2014 at 7:05
454
votes

I interacted with https://stackoverflow.com/questions/23229058/sql-select-lowest-20-record yesterday.

  • The OP had done so little research that it was answered correctly, without enough information to answer it correctly, in 49 seconds
  • A 70k and a 30k user interacted without voting to close
  • It got 3 answers, 2 incorrect (one of these because the OP didn't provide enough information)
  • The question got 5 upvotes
  • Both incorrect answers got an upvote

This is extremely depressing. Acutely depressing. To the point of "I quit".

This site was meant to provide a canonical resource for programmers to find answers to their questions. It's becoming a place where people who should never have been employed as a programmer, and who can't even be bothered to read the documentation, post mind-numbingly awful questions asking the community to debug their code. Here's my code dump, fix it for me.

That's not to say that these people can't be rescued. I think I may have rescued someone yesterday - they responded well in the comments and now have a chance of creating decent questions. However, it took me probably 15 minutes over the course of a few hours to maybe rescue one person. There simply isn't the resources to do this with everyone - especially as most don't seem to want to be rescued.

Add into this mix the race to get reputation, which leads people to answer everything, however crap. Everyone's done this on occasion, myself included, but it's depressing to see moderators continually answering duplicates. Because even the high-rep users do this, and they're normally better at answering questions, and doing so quickly, the lower rep users have a smaller chance of gaining reputation. So, they emulate their supposed betters and type something in the hope of eking out that little bit of reputation.

Hence, rudeness.

There are maybe at most 30,000 users trying to stem the tide of unbelievably poor questions and answers crafted by hundreds of thousands in a vain effort to keep this site the way it was originally imagined to be and the way they'd like it to remain. They're failing and slowly giving up.

I really care about this, about this site being a good community; somewhere where people can come and get answers to their questions. I've learnt so much from here and helped so many other people that I'm proud of this place. The perceived negativity is just an attempt to keep it that way.

Or I might be being overly dramatic.

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  • 46
    please.. allow me to say that depression often lead to strong sentence. When you believe that "people who should never have been employed as a programmer" should be not allowed to write (for example), you are making a really, really strong assumption. We should agree that this could lead to problems and try to find a right, non drastic, working solution. Nothing should never justify drastic solutions. Because human make errors. Always
    – Revious
    Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 12:13
  • 165
    I'm well known for being grumpy, but I have to agree with Ben. To the extent that the ability to express thoughts in a clear manner is a requirement for being a programer, then there are a lot of people on Stack Overflow who should not be programmers. I blame the Internet copy-paste-from-an-example culture for this. More copying, less reading, less intelligence. How much intelligence does it take to copy and paste? Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 12:18
249
votes

In two words: because crap.

Now to be serious, keep in mind that there is a limited set of "regulars" who actually answer all the questions. They make the core of Stack Overflow and they see hundreds and thousands of questions, then they answer what they can.

Once upon a time, there were not many questions being asked, so it was easy to pick the good questions, give proper answer and continue happily ever after.

But as Stack Overflow becomes more and more popular, more and more questions are being asked and naturally, major part of them are, plainly put, crap. Too trivial, shows no efforts whatsoever, unclear, pick your choice. Finding the good questions that can actually be answered becomes harder every day.

So those regular users do their best to preserve quality by attacking the bad posts and trying to educate the users, sometimes being harsh while doing so.

I fear it's an endless loop and honestly can't see any improvement in the future, so those who want real help and do ask proper questions will have to grow thick skin to pass the initial sting and all will be good.

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  • 57
    "So those regular users do their best to preserve quality by attacking the bad posts and trying to educate the users, sometimes being harsh while doing so." - I don't quite agree on this part. The problem, as I see it, is that the vast majority of these "regulars" don't appear to care about quality of posts / this site at all. If they did, these questions won't often get answers and we'd likely weed them out quite quickly. Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 9:04
  • 67
    Don't forget that sometimes its hard to decide which of the 20 duplicates to use in the duplicate-close-vote
    – PlasmaHH
    Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 10:21
  • 47
    I have to agree with both @Liam and Shadow here. If I have to ask a question on SO, I've not done my research - because almost everything these days has been asked before). It would be nice for low rep users (<= 500?) to be rewarded for finding duplicates so that their first questions aren't crap. Once they get to grips with asking (> 500 rep) then hopefully they'd ask better questions. Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 10:57
158
votes

Of late the tendency is to simply close or put on hold most questions, or downvote them

Yes, that's what we are supposed to do with poor questions.

or make fun of the writing or the style.

No, that's what the community used to do, back before the "Summer of Love" campaign started to outlaw the practice. I see no evidence myself that this is coming back. It is a self-protection mechanism of any community, meant to make newcomers feel unwelcome.

Outlawing the practice certainly has been quite effective, SO has changed a great deal since then with a glut of help-desk questions being asked every day. Especially noticeable, to me anyway, in the past 6 months. I spend an excessive amount of time as of late trying to find a question that interests me enough to do the research to answer it. And the number of downvotes I have in my profile caught up with the number of upvotes, all on poor questions.

I don't think it is just me that's noticing this. I also see other experts leaving. This is a death-knell for any community that relies on such users to answer the hard technical questions and their unusual productivity. This sobering trend is visible in SEDE data I collected for 12 high rep users that are still active, plotting the number of answers they posted by month:

enter image description here

I eliminated the vacation months and the last month with incomplete data (March 2014). Clearly this is not a problem caused by a lack of questions, I posit that it is caused by the kind of questions we allow to enter the system.

There are other side-effects as well, SO has experienced geometric growth since its inception. That has stopped in fall of last year, something you can see from the quantcast.com statistics.

Sobering stuff, I see no good ways to turn this around and still stay in line with the goals set by the StackExchange owners and enforced by the moderators. Hopefully they are aware of it.

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  • 79
    I am not in your league or the top 12 people you mention, but I do post a fair amount of answers. The problem I encounter is this, I spend an excessive amount of time as of late trying to find a question that interests me enough to do the research to answer it. I would really like to answer, dissect, and work through complex well researched issues but they are a diamond in the rough. I was unaware that this was a larger problem because I thought "must be the wrong time of day", or "everyone must have already gone home", or something along the lines of a third-party not being involved.
    – Travis J
    Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 15:17
  • 38
    A longitudinal plot of just 12 users doesn't seem very credible. Any number of personal reasons could explain decline of individual usage. More useful would be a survey of top users, to which you have contributed your input here.
    – A. Webb
    Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 15:47
151
votes

A summary of what's been said so far

Have you ever met someone who used to believe in Utopia? Someone who bought into the inherent goodness of human nature, the potential of humanity to create their own heaven on earth, in the inevitable triumph of peace, love and all that other hippie crap... Only to have it burned out of them by repeated exposure to the reality of human nature?

Good lord, ain't they bitter!

So we have folks who expect to be greeted with open arms, their contributions lauded and all their needs met. And they're disappointed, because not every question gets an answer, and not every answer gets immediate recognition.

And we have folks who expect every post to be useful and informative, the folks asking questions to have done their research and those posting answers to elaborate on how they arrived at the solution. And they're disappointed, because this isn't the case either.

Some of them leave, searching for greener pastures. Others stick around, making sure everyone learns just how disappointed they are that things aren't the way they used to be and never were.

And some accept that there's value in what we're doing, even if it's done by and for a bunch of selfish, bigoted, short-sighted jackasses.

None of this is going to change. The conversion of wide-eyed idealists into bitter, angry militants is as inevitable as it is pointless. But there are things we can change...

Solvable problems

There are two huge problems facing Stack Overflow right now, and they are not unrelated:

  • Information is poorly organized. Yes, I'm talking about duplicates. No one in their right mind should be asking about "headers already sent" (though of course, they still are), but there are thousands of more obscure topics that are duplicated without being marked as such, and useful information is obscured as a result.

    Solution: divorce duplicate-marking from closing, provide rewards for solving someone's problem by pointing to an existing question.

  • Too many low-quality questions. By which I mean, questions that are useful to no one else. This isn't about effort, or even research (although lack of effort can lead to this, and lack of research clearly exacerbates #1) - in many cases, it's a fundamental misunderstanding of what these sites are for, a tragedy of the commons leading to "personal advice" questions whose answers will never be found or used by anyone else.

    Solution: Treat question-creation as a shared resource, limit access to those who do not make good use of it. Existing limits attempt to strike a balance between generous enough for those contributing constructively and those behaving abusively; new, more strict limits should be enacted and loosened for those who actually demonstrate constructive behavior.

Will these changes make Stack Overflow less "negative"? Absolutely not; people are awful, and there are a lot of people on Stack Overflow. But if successful, they will make the site more accommodating for those willing to take a positive attitude in spite of that.

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  • 15
    This was a pretty depressing discussion but your suggestions bring some much needed light. Rewarding finding duplicates sounds like a step in the right direction and I would like to hear more details about your second bullet. Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 22:05
114
votes

I think one thing that adds significantly to the negative trend is the flood of homework questions. Homework questions tend to be of a poor quality and have many problems: no research or effort made by the poster, the poster is unwilling to actually learn anything, outright code begging with copy/paste of homework assignment, "what's wrong with this huge blob of code" etc etc.

SO used to have a homework tag, which you were supposed to tag your homework questions with, thereby allowing people who were deadly tired of them to ignore that tag. But the tag was removed in some policy change and deemed irrelevant.

Then there was another strange, sneaky update recently that changed the available close reasons. The close reason saying that the poster must demonstrate minimum knowledge about the topic was removed. It was replaced with "there is not enough details to answer the question", which for some reason needs to co-exist with the the already present close reason "unclear what you are asking".

Generally, the trend of the site seems to be to expect less out of new users. We are supposed to manually educate everyone and their mother about how to use the site, instead of expecting them to put some minimum effort of their own into it, such as reading the fundamental "about" page.

A veteran user who spends many hours on the site is supposed to spend even more time in "educating" some kid who just posts a copy/paste of his homework, completely ignorant to site policies and completely unwilling to learn anything, or even stay on the site once his homework is done. Chances are, it's a hopeless case and the new user adds nothing of value to the community, so why waste time on them? The sensible thing to do would be just to delete the crap question and move on.

People come to the site to learn/teach about programming, not to teach people how to interact with other human beings. That's what schools and parents are for.

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82
votes

It all started with the Summer of Love

Every community starts out needing to recruit members, so they tend to be very friendly to newcomers.

After a few years, an insider group of old-timers forms. They get to know each other. They know the rules. They know the history and the legends of the community. And it’s only natural to get little bit irritated when newbies show up who don’t know the rules.

Newbies will show up, make a newbie mistake, like wearing shoes indoors or forgetting to close the toilet lid, and the old-timers will look at each other, roll their eyes, and snort, “Typical!”

At this point, if it’s a normal human community, it will start to feel a little bit unfriendly to outsiders. Insular.

And the newbies will say, “well, gosh, that’s not a very friendly place.”

So we were nice. We were welcoming. We flagged the snarky old-timers into submission and we welcomed the first-timers with hugs and quick bug fixes. We were so nice that we forgot the core values of the site:

Stack Overflow is a question and answer site for professional and enthusiast programmers.

The site became a place where anyone was welcome, regardless of skill level or desire to learn. And the user base grew.

I went to the Summer of Love and all I got was this nasty itch

Predictably, the fundamental character of the site changed. It is no longer a place for professional or enthusiast programmers. Some of them are still around, but they are being drowned in a sea of unenthusiastic, rather-be-using-Excel users who ask dull, uninformed questions over and over again. Their dullness has transformed the community from a vibrant interesting place to one where the experts are either bored, angry, or absent.

We need a Winter of Death

If this site is to become vibrant and useful again, it must return to its core values. We must reject the non-enthusiasts and kill their questions. We must wound their spirits and make them stop posting drivel. We must disabuse them of the notion that SO is a free help desk designed to solve their particular problems. By doing so, we will help to ensure that the enthusiasts get the attention they deserve and their good questions will re-energize the professionals. The site will be saved.

We will help them even as we reject their input

The stated goal of the site is to publish useful question and answer pairs. Those pairings, if done right, will answer the casual Googlers' questions before they even create a StackExchange account. We will stem the tide of duplicate and half-closed questions that crowd out the good questions and answers. To make it work, we need intelligent askers and informed answerers working together. Everyone else should simply enjoy the show.

You have the power to solve the problem

Gamification is a big part of this site. We reward people when we:

  • answer their questions
  • upvote their questions, answers, and posts
  • view their questions (the view counter increments)

We express our disapproval when we:

  • downvote
  • comment to explain why they were wrong

Closing is useful too, but that is mostly for us and future site visitors and often takes a long time to have an effect. If you want to send a message to the ones who are causing the problem, actively downvote their bad posts. This includes:

  • Uninformed questions. If they could get the answer by searching our site or Google, downvote. The question isn't useful and shows no research effort.
  • Uninformed answers. If the answer is wrong or incomplete, it isn't useful.
  • Correct answers to uninformed questions. This one is controversial, but stick with me for a minute: When we answer bad questions, we reward the bad askers. Most of the site regulars know not to answer bad questions, but we should help inform other users of the site by downvoting their answers, too even when they are technically correct. The downvote tab says "This answer is not useful." If the answer encourages bad behavior, it is definitely not useful.

Forget the love. This site is special and unique. When the non-enthusiasts post their drivel, smack their little hands and express your disapproval; remind them that they are allowed to look and admire, but they may not handle it lest they break it.

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52
votes

My take: (largely speaking from experience ... unfortunately)

  • Too many very low quality posts and too many people encouraging it (with answers and/or upvotes), leading to an overall more negative outlook by those who view the posts as very low quality (i.e. more downvoting / close voting or flagging for those who don't really deserve it, and more negative comments).

  • People downvote instead of voting / flagging to close because:

    • They think that's 'nicer' (... ?).

    • They think the question should be closed but either can't find the correct close reason (due to the somewhat recent changes to the close reasons) and / or the question needs a custom close reason, which they're unable to provide (short of using a custom moderator flag) as they have < 3k reputation ... or they're feeling lazy.

  • People comment to indicate what's wrong with posts rather than or in addition to downvoting / voting or flagging to close (ironically generally making very little impact to the overall quality of posts). And trying to lead the endless masses onto the right path in vain (because most people just don't seem to want to improve) can make one negative.

    These people might eventually give up and just resort to downvoting / voting or flagging to close (without the comment), perhaps more generously than one should.

1
  • 39
    how can anyone improve their questions now or in the future if nobody comments on downvotes? If someone downvotes me, tell me why so i can learn and improve. Isn't that what Stack Overflow is all about? Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 10:35
52
votes

Why is Stack Overflow so negative of late?

You are generalizing. This is certainly not true of some sub-communities in less popular tags.

Why is Stack Overflow popular tag X sub-community so negative of late?

The Stack Overflow model with fixed parameters for privileges does not always scale well.

  1. No threshold to ask questions: Asking questions is the most important privilege, but Stack Overflow requires nothing to ask a question. Therefore, there is very little vested interest in asking a good question, which includes not asking duplicates. As long as it costs them nothing but the time it takes type/copy the question, there will always be bad questions from new users. The popular languages/technologies attract a lot of new users. The followers of related tags are overrun by bad questions.

  2. Fixed thresholds for other privileges: Take close votes for example. No matter how popular the tag is, it takes the same 5 votes and the same rep threshold to cast a vote. This means it takes relatively few votes from relatively low rep users in popular tags as compared to less popular tags to close a question. This help does balance #1, but not in an ideal manner. In a popular tag, you will always have many users that misuse privileges.

What might be done?

  1. Require some cost to ask questions to encourage more vested interest. A minimal cost would be the effort to register. A minimal cost would be clicking through the two-minute tour. Give some rep points for these activities and require minimal rep to ask a question. You registered or took the tour? Now you have the rep to ask a question. You got downvoted and lost that privilege? Take the tour if registered or visa versa to gain it back. Or answer a little quiz about the FAQ and gain it back one time. Right now we have no cost to the new user to ask but an investment of the community to weed out or educate bad new users. These costs need to be reversed.

  2. Consider assigning some privileges on a per tag basis, first tag prevailing, with different thresholds so that (a) sub-communities are protected (b) large communities scale.

    • Example of (a): New users ask a Clojure question that relates to Java interop. Woe unto thee, new user, that tags ! For you have brought down all of the Java followers upon yourself with all their close votes that may find your question dealing with Clojure specifics unclear. So, perhaps the Java users should be given the privilege to edit out the Java tag if it does not pertain, but not close the question unless they also have some experience/rep with Clojure?

What can I do?

Answer more questions, and/or eventually perform more moderation duties yourself. If you have a large ratio of questions to answers, you may find yourself with different opinions if you were to try to even out that ratio. You can also get a little perspective on why an answerer might need a timeout if you spend some time in the review queues and can help weed out some of the frustrating questions.

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  • 2
    In fact, registration is required to post a question (on Stack Overflow, not other SE sites). And there is a badge for looking through the FAQ.
    – jscs
    Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 21:21
  • 11
    Good. Now make the question ban transparent by tying it to rep. Most new users aren't even aware such a thing exists and therefore don't know the stakes of asking bad questions. For example, set the rep floor to -15 and require -10 to ask a question. Give clear warnings, "Your reputation is low. At least -10 reputation is required to post questions. Read the FAQ for help writing better questions and other ways to gain reputation. As a bonus, we'll give you +10 reputation for taking a short quiz at the end."
    – A. Webb
    Commented Apr 24, 2014 at 0:02
  • 2
    +1 for This is certainly not true of some sub-communities in less popular tags
    – dirkk
    Commented Apr 24, 2014 at 9:29
  • @A.Webb Put that comment in the post! Commented Apr 26, 2014 at 5:49
  • No, you are wrong. It should be Why are popular tags [list all tags] sub-communities [add "all"] so negative of late?
    – Jamie
    Commented Apr 27, 2014 at 8:18
  • The negative trend is certainly there for all the main tags, such as the mainstream programming language tags.
    – Lundin
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 11:38
  • Nice potential solution. Guarantee new users have read the FAQ by making it the only way to gain enough rep to ask a question. Simple and (I'd think) effective.
    – RubberDuck
    Commented May 3, 2014 at 13:13
52
votes

It's not the moderators to blame [for this].

It's because the initial [wrong] decision to choose an ochlocracy as a ruling force for this site.

On Stack Overflow we have a mob rule at its best:

Apparently, experienced users are outnumbered by noobs. Either because experts are scarce in general and because they don't have time to hang around all day long. As a result we have a site filled with uneducated "enthusiasts", and thus we can see all that mess:

  • Uneducated folks tend to flood the site with pointless questions, making rare good questions sink so fast that only a bounty, manually attached to the latter, can give it a chance.
  • Uneducated folks tend to answer mostly simple and repetitive questions
  • Uneducated folks tend to vote on mostly obvious answers
  • Uneducated folks tend to give a kick to a question they don't understand - your case.

The problem is: this site is attracting them in great numbers. With all these shiny badges and rep points that never attract a mature person but always make a teenager inspired.

If you take another example of extremely popular collaborative-edited site - Wikipedia - you will see that there is not a trace of ochlocracy! There is a community of trusted editors who keeps an eye on the quality. This is how things have to be done.

Yet I bear no illusion towards Stack Overflow. It will keep the same way. Live with it or leave it (or get thrown out by the mods will watch silently at your struggle with ignorant folks, never giving a hand, but who never lose an opportunity if you lose your temper at last).

0
35
votes

I'm a somewhat high-rep user (approaching 90k now) who long ago posted many answers (thousands) but now hardly posts any.

From my perspective, the simple fact is that pretty much all of the well-written well-asked generic questions have already been answered. This leads to only two kinds of questions: the kind where the asker didn't do their due diligence, cause if they did they'd have found the duplicate, and the kind where they didn't find an answer because it's too specific. There are a few more questions running through the cracks between these two but hardly any.

In addition, the high popularity of the site means it attracts all comers- even the ones we don't want, the ones who treat it like Google or a book or something.

Therefore, I believe the only effective solutions will either offer a kind of Code Google, where you put in some code and you get back existing questions/answers that are similar, or offer proper discussion functionality- for example, have a button to ask a question in a tag-specific chatroom. (Please, dear God, keep the C++ room and the Lounge separate) or a forum or both.

Edit: There's always the broken window of how chat never, ever gets any new features or bugfixes. It's a big reminder of how nobody gives a shit every time you log in and you see the same old broken flag system and stuff.

3
  • "This leads to only two kinds of questions: the kind where the asker didn't do their due diligence, cause if they did they'd have found the duplicate, and the kind where they didn't find an answer because it's too specific." I am guilty of making those two kinds of questions. :(
    – Kim Stacks
    Commented Apr 27, 2014 at 3:39
  • I agree with the second paragraph somewhat. We will never return to when the most basic and fundamental questions are available to be answered. Maybe we could remove all questions from the site so that there is plenty of rep to go around again :) Or maybe just do it for one day and we advertise in advance so people can get rep ... Just kidding. But, this topic reduced environment does create more effort needed to gain reputation and helps to urge on both rep whores and those who would like to be trusted users to go after less quality questions.
    – demongolem
    Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 19:41
  • A third type of question that adds to the negativity: Questions that ask how to break accepted SO conventions. As a new user, my best and favorite question got a number of downvotes because too many experienced users thought "don't do that" was an acceptable and complete answer. But you're otherwise right-- I either research and answer my own questions, or they're 0 vote 0 answer minutiae.
    – stevesliva
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 17:17
27
votes

Here is perspective of a relatively new programmer.

One of the hardest part about learning how to program is figuring out how to ask the right question.

Many times what I ask and what I need are not the same thing. Nothing is more frustrating then sifting through hundreds of pages of documentation looking for solution that sounds right. In short, asking good questions requires having proper context which is very, very difficult.

So, yes. Having a guide that says, "Hey, you are asking the wrong question. I'm closing this question for now, but come back after you read this" is extremely valuable feedback to the user and it helps the community. First, the link to the reference will help the original poster and other new users. Second, follow-up questions will be more focused and contextually relevant.

My modest proposal is that the community should assume the better nature of the poster. Instead of implying they are lazy, assume they lack context to ask good questions. That attitude shift alone would help a lot.

And for the 1% of you making English competency an issue.... 90% of programming literature is written in English. Imagine having to learn a spoken language before you could even begin to address your technical issues. Then, when you finally do ask a question your technical issues get dismissed because you used the wrong verb tense in your sentences. Is it too much to help the poor guy out? Edit their questions and point them to the right resource so they know what to get translated. The amount of gratitude felt by the poster for your small gesture is impossible for Westerners to comprehend. The conditions I have observed Indians and Asians learning how to code would surprise you. In many cases they are literally coding their way out of poverty.

0
25
votes

This is not the first time this has been discussed. "Why so mean?"

The answer always turns out to be the same: The influx of crap is too high. We know the answer to this question.

Now, let's rather discuss how to build tools to manage the "crap stream" more efficiently. We will not find a perfect solution but we'll be able to mitigate the problem partially.

Here are some ideas:

  1. Reduce the vote-to-close count from 5 to 3. In my experience, almost all questions reaching 3 votes also reach 5 eventually. Reduce the burden and close faster.
  2. Detect questions likely to be closed using Bayes machine learning and reduce the close barrier further to just 2 close votes.
  3. A/B test multiple text messages for educating askers before they ask. Determine which one is best.
  4. Reinstate the close reason "lack of minimal understanding". It might not be pristine but it addresses the bigger problem: Closing off crap.
  5. Make closing as duplicate less time consuming. At the moment I personally never bother to find a duplicate although it must clearly exist.

With these ideas I just want to show that it is possible to mitigate the crap problem partially. I do not endorse any specific idea from this list. That's not the point.

0
19
votes

I think part of it is resource exhaustion, analogous to mining for natural resources. Think of unanswered topics as oil, and rep as money that you can get by drilling for the oil (asking/answering).

When SO first started, it had the last forty years or so of software development to mine for useful questions and turn them in to rep by answering them. The community has done a great job covering all these topics, and those big reserves of unanswered topics are rather well exploited at this point. Truly new topics are only going to pop up at the rate of technological change or novel applications of our existing software tech. So potential rep is more scarce than it used to be.

At the same time our user population is growing. Like with natural commodities, more people competing over scarce resources could make things turn nasty, especially in the face of highly visible "wealth" inequality. To a new user, SO might look like a post-mining-boom economy, with the incumbents sitting on a bunch of rep wealth that they made back during the initial boom time when those reserves were there for the taking. And because the territory is pretty well staked out and exhausted now, there's not much way for them to catch up.

1
  • @MichaelT, Andrew meant separating them into two different sites. "The 'toilet' which no one wants to go"? You'd be surprised when this 'toilet' get more views and users than the main site. And that's not a problem, A small site where "nub" questions are disallowed can perfectly co-exist with a big toilet site where they are allowed. The problem is Stackoverflow wants to be both, directly violating 'do one thing and do it well'. And that's a problem we can't fix, because management (jo *cough * el) has priority on SO becoming big and famous and all.
    – Pacerier
    Commented May 6, 2014 at 0:18
17
votes

I do not know for sure if things are getting more negative(that is pretty subjective obviously) - but I will admit that I am having a lot harder time answering/understanding questions in the past year or so.

I remember when I started answering questions in the Excel tag it was actually a lot of fun. I learned a lot - from people like Siddharth Rout, brettdj, barry houdini and Tim Williams. I gained reputation very easily. I figured if I spent a couple years on here I would be well over 10,000 rep points. (I don't care about rep but that was just my prediction at the time).

But recently, the questions seem (to me) to have become lower and lower in quality. By "lower and lower in quality" I mean a few different things:

  1. the question is poorly written/explained - often showing very poor English grammar skills.

  2. the question (or a very similar one) has already been answered an innumerable number of times - which could have been found out with a simple web search

  3. the question shows such little knowledge of basic Excel functionality that I often feel it is more useful to the question asker to suggest that they should "learn excel" before they try to do anything else with it. (in reality I don't say this because it would be dickish - but that is what I am thinking)

The Excel tag is somewhat unique compared to other tags - there are many people who don't consider Excel a proper programming subject. I do certainly. But I do feel it is being overwhelmed by people who would be better off going on superuser because their questions are not computer science by any standard. You could probably move a good percentage of the questions to superuser.

I do notice the same trend in the VBA and Excel VBA tags - so it might not be unique to just the Excel tag.

Another problem that is related but somewhat separate from just being "stupid" are the people who basically want you to do their work for them. These people are not "stupid" - they are often quite intelligent - which makes their exploitation of the system all the more "criminal".

I honestly don't care about reputation as much as I care about improving/learning new things - and that has somewhat declined on stack overflow - I find I learn much more from the Mr. Excel forums.

I think people like myself could do more good for stack overflow as moderators than by answering questions - but frankly I started using stack overflow for selfish reasons(to learn more) and being a mod is not a task/job that I envy or would ever be willing to do. Especially not for free.

I am glad this question has gotten up voted so much. It seems many people are starting to feel the same way.

2
  • Reputation is the culprit. I wonder why it's been 7 years but no one has suggested removing the reputation system on SO. Want to destroy Wikipedia? Give editors/posters reputation and I guarantee you its quality will half every year. It's as powerful as Moore's law, except this time, inversed.
    – Pacerier
    Commented May 6, 2014 at 0:32
  • Reputation can be a good thing but it needs to be managed. This entire thread says: "HEY MODS! Something is very broken and we need to fix it!" ie the problem is the result of an unbalanced system; one that is currently rewarding bad questions and bad answers.
    – AndrewS
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 16:50
16
votes

I can only offer some additional statistics illustrating the voting behaviour change over time.

The first vote on StackOverflow questions and answers was usually "up" in 95% of cases between Aug-2008 and Apr-2011 but has been steadily declining since then.

The first vote on answers has always been up in roughly 95% of cases.

https://data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/revision/185792/239997/initial-quality-timeseries

enter image description here

Of course this doesn't explain why the behaviour has changed.

The OP compared SO to GameDev so here is the same graph for that site:

enter image description here

P.S. "all" includes non-question, non-answer post types too.

4
  • 8
    2011-05-12: Question downvotes are "free" to the downvoter and will not be subject to a -1 rep penalty. Downvotes to answers are unaffected and still "cost" 1 reputation to cast. (SE features changelog)
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 25, 2014 at 13:44
  • 1
    @gnat so that presumably explains the initial deviation down from 95% around May-2011. I guess we would expect a trend downwards as more people get used to down voting questions for free. But what about the large change in 2014? Commented Apr 25, 2014 at 13:47
  • 2
    this is likely combined effect of burning down CV queue and LQ review queue changes. Note that question closed with VLQ flag, automatically gets downvote from a system
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 25, 2014 at 13:54
  • 1
    It might also be useful to understand the volume of questions being asked over time.
    – user456814
    Commented Apr 27, 2014 at 8:48
16
votes

Sorry, going meta here, because apparently there is nothing new under the sun.

This is typical of the way that online communities evolve.

Experienced users get fed up with new users because they're not experienced, and make the same mistakes because they don't know they're mistakes yet. Participating becomes less and less fun, and more and more like Work. G*d Forbid. And the newbies feel unfairly excluded because they're not part of The Club.

It was true in the days of Wild West Usenet, and it happens even now. It's a "FAQ entry" you will have internalized if you've ever participated in online communities before.

I've been involved in several over the decades, and they have without exception trended in this direction. Everything I've read in this discussion has had its analogue in the events of those others.

A humorous take on this can be found at http://everything2.com/title/E2+is+unfriendly+to+New+Order

0
13
votes

If the problem is poor questions by new users, then maybe new users need a more guided approach to asking a question. Some kind of wizard, perhaps, with more boxes to fill in

  • This is my problem
  • This is the relevant code
  • This is my desired result
  • This is what I have tried
  • It applies to [these tags]

Then, when the user has a certain reputation, then they can opt to use the standard single box question?

(Perhaps this is a question for https://ux.stackexchange.com/ ...?)

1
  • This has indeed been proposed a handful of times, e.g. A question "wizard"
    – jscs
    Commented Apr 25, 2014 at 18:39
12
votes

Subjective comment warning!

I can appreciate your view. I remember when I first joined SE it seemed there were far more questions which prompted more thought, were more subjective etc, the community felt 'more engaged'- it certainly 'felt' like there was more discussion and willingness to help. Is is a bad thing this feels less the case now? I'd argue no; I'd go so far to say it is actually better now.

As already noted here, SE has changed heavily in terms of the sheer number of questions, answers, traffic and...active users. Not only that, the network has expanded considerably so there are often more appropriate sites for some types of question to be asked.

There are clearly defined rules for asking questions (the oft quoted 'off topic' section for example) and the position and purpose of SE has been clarified and focussed in order to mean dealing with the increased traffic has stayed possible.

What this means is that it may feel a little more 'abrupt', but that more users can be served better, more concise answers, faster. Not only that, but the content of the site is kept relatively 'clean' in terms of its principles.

Although in the glory old days (!) through my rose tinted spectacles I feel there were many more interesting questions, there probably weren't as many as I think. I am actively engaged in SE, and review every question coming in for a few of the tags.... and you wouldn't believe how many are poorly asked- imagine trying to solve a coding question off the back of only having a screenshot of the output? I don't joke, this happens many times a day.

As such, I empathise with your feelings but I have to say I think it creates an environment better suited to higher quality QA. Albeit one which continues to need to grow and learn (and has done thus far).

One thing I would say though- is I do tend to avoid getting into discussion on SE as sometimes it does turn sour, but this is simply a function of the vastly increased number of people and personalities involved (have you got on well with every person you have ever met in life?). The whole point is SE has recognised the need for division of purpose in order to maintain its strengths, which is why not only do we now have more network sites, but SE specifically for Q/A, chat for, well....chat and Meta for more interesting discussion..

0
11
votes

I'm surprised that nobody mentioned that Stack Overflow rules have changed over the years. The broad but interesting questions (those closed for "historical significance") that are now instantly downvoted were what made me so addicted to this website.

The rules as they are today almost induces low quality questions and answers. Why is it rare to see a good question nowadays? I would say because there are almost no good questions that fits the rules.

People will downvote and tell you to avoid broad questions, search more before asking, debug properly, or narrow down the issue, but if you do that then you don't have to ask the question because you will probably find the issue by yourself, which is great, but if everyone did that then SO would be almost dead. There are very few tough questions that you can't solve without searching or debugging.

Each time I see a user who knows how Stack Overflow works, what questions should be asked, and look at his profile, I see that he hasn't even asked 10 questions even though he's been there for two years.

I know, Stack Exchange is a vast network and there are now other places to ask these questions. But these restrictive rules have IMO reduced the overall quality of Stack Overflow.

I read GameDev from time to time and noticed that the rules aren't as restrictive. The most upvoted question is How can I effectively manage a hobby game project?. Ask the same question on Stack Overflow, and it will get downvoted to hell in five minutes. But these are the kind of questions that anyone likes to read.

My thought is that creating specialized sites like "Super User" or "Server Fault" were great, but it wasn't a good idea to create other Stack Exchange sites for opinion-based or broad programming questions.

Let me explain it a bit better. The problem is that even if we successfully teached all Stack Overflow users how to write good questions, 100 bad questions will not become 100 good questions but rather one good question. When going through the process of writing a good question you have to try different solutions, do some research, and so on. So most of them will find the solution by themselves and will not need to ask the question anymore.

So what would be left? Stack Overflow with 50-100 times less questions would become less active than other Stack Exchange sites, which is why I say that the rules are too restrictive.

I also think that experts enjoy reading, asking or answering broad and opinion-based questions, which may be why they are leaving as these questions are now considered bad.

So my suggestion would be to merge "Programmers" with Stack Overflow, or whatever site that will allow these questions closed for "historical significance" to become on-topic again. I know it's a big change, but my opinion is that small changes will not be enough to stop the process that is going on.

5
  • Personally, I like the 10K tools for seeing what folks actually like on Stack Overflow - and what they hate. What's on the right side that you wish was better-received - and what's on the left that you wish was less common?
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 27, 2014 at 20:58
  • I'm an example of your 3rd paragraph. The truth is, those of us who are capable of answering a broad range of questions are typically the same people who are capable of researching and solving a problem on our own in a shorter amount of time/effort than it would take to formulate a good question. I don't ask questions because i don't have questions to ask, not because it's difficult to ask a good question.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 1, 2014 at 20:08
  • 1
    @KevinB But anyone who knows how to ask good questions will say that he has almost no questions to ask because he solves most of his problems on his own. I have edited my answer to explain it better.
    – Dalmas
    Commented May 3, 2014 at 11:10
  • 2
    "100 bad questions will not become 100 good questions but rather 1 good question" - WIN! And 99 people will have a better understanding of how the stuff they're doing works. And will gradually take less and less time to solve their problems. And in time, will be capable of answering that one hard question left.
    – Mat
    Commented May 3, 2014 at 11:20
  • 1
    @Shog9 I think the questions I'm talking about are more questions that aren't asked at all because they don't fit the rules anymore. The bad ones are still there, but the users who would be able to write good ones don't ask anything or they go to another StackExchange sites. The ones in the 10K tools that I wouldn't close/downvote are questions that are kind of duplicates but not exactly. I often see questions getting closed as a duplicate even though I know the answer to one but not the other.
    – Dalmas
    Commented May 3, 2014 at 11:20
8
votes

First I'd like to say that I really like that question. I sometime have the same feeling but I must also admit that I don't hesitate to downvote a question and a bit more to downvote an answer.

Here are my 2 cents on that topic:

Downvoting/closing questions

IMHO most negative feelings on downvotes seem to come from the fact that some people just downvote or vote to close without caring to provide a reason.

It's true that there are some questions which have obvious flaws (just code being pasted, a single sentence with no obvious effort put into it, assignments being pasted etc.) and closing those really helps reduce the clutter in between the good questions. In most cases the close reason is simple enough to provide feedback on why a question has been closed.

In other cases the reasons are less obvious especially if the confusion comes from the fact that some users are new or less proficient in their writing or use of the English language. In those cases it would be really helpful to at least provide a short comment on why the question is closed or downvoted.

To sum it up, I tend to downvote/close-vote questions which display a real lack of effort. If questions suffer from lack of skill I try to help the OP first and only downvote or vote to close if the OP doesn't display any will to improve.

Downvoting answers

Downvoting answers is a slightly different story IMHO. Those who write an answer put at least some effort into it and thus don't deserve downvotes for the same reasons. A downvote would be justified if an answer is plainly wrong but in every but the most obvious cases (answers that don't even match the question) the downvoters should give a comment on the reasons. Only that way one can improve on their answers.

Btw, it should be obvious that if an answer is improved the downvotes should be reconsidered.

In any case the primary goal of voting on answers should be to promote good and helpful answers that others can find easily. In some cases there are several good answers which cover different aspects of the problem, but unfortunately you can accept only one.

A secondary goal would be to reward people who are positive and really want to help the community, especially if they put effort into their answers.

"Making fun of questions"

... make fun of the writing or the style

Well, that's a hard and controversal topic. Without going too much into detail I'd say that some of us try to be positive and when they stumble over a funny formulation they tend to give a comment that is not meant to make fun of the OP but to maintain a positive spirit.

GameDev SE vs. SO

IMHO a main reason for the difference in attitude comes from the fact that GameDev SE is more specialized, i.e. you have less questions in general, less non-effort questions and more specialized topics in general. People who hang out there and answer questions often have more in common with those who ask questions (e.g. some interest in game development) than is the case at SO.

SO has such a huge and diverse user base that it's more probable to find questions that lot of people can't relate to and thus you'll get more seemingly negative response here.

1
  • I disagree that an effort was put in answers. There are so many answers that just copypasta from other answers or internet resources, sometimes not even understanding the original question.
    – Léo Natan
    Commented Apr 26, 2014 at 11:53
7
votes

I don't think that stack overflow is more negative of late, I think that it has always been negative. It might just be that my personal experience of SO has been bad but I think that a lot of users have similar experiences and eventually take on a 'don't care' attitude, use SO as a last resort, and simply don't want to contribute to a 'community' with such a negative air.

Gaming the System

It feels like many high rep SO users are gaming the reputation system to one extent or another. It's not bad on SO but it gets quite obvious on other sites. I'm not going to name names but I'm sure everyone has seen an instance or two and to occasional and low rep users it looks like the system is less about Q&A and more about rep gaming. Hiding rep from each other would alleviate this a lot.

Moaning

There's an awful lot of moaning about how dreadful most users are, including this thread. None of it helps and it actively discourages many people. While new and low rep users are allowed to participate many of them are driven off because they think that their contributions will be dismissed and destroyed.

Downvoting

Every single downvote is a hurtful action. When you have plenty of rep it's a pinprick but when you have a little it's much worse. Users also use downvotes as petty revenge - someone made a snide comment? Downvote them on another question! Removing downvoting entirely would stop the negativity dead.

Upvoting

Most users don't upvote nearly enough and for the right reasons, especially when new and low rep users ask questions. If a question is good enough to answer why isn't it worth an upvote? SO shouldn't be a popularity contest but it almost always is. A maximum rep cap on questions and answers would really help.

High Rep Privilege

It feels as if many high rep users both act as if they are infallible and are treated as unable to get something wrong. Like a well paid movie star they should only be as good as their latest effort. Rep is not right.

I realise that to anyone on meta this list is going to be highly unpopular and downvoted into oblivion but the view from the bottom is not pretty. SO users appear obsessed with reputation, any suggestions that might entail the slightest curtailment or reduction (gasp!) of rep are roundly rejected. Until the community can put aside it's obsession the system cannot be changed.

1
  • 1
    I agree with the opening paragraph of this, and parts of the rest. I think you're missing the purpose of rep privilege though: it's important that folks with influence over the direction of the site have a vested interest in not screwing that up - rep is a proxy for that.
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 21:08
7
votes

I'm sad that the top answers to this question all seem to be some variation of "Well then people should stop asking stupid questions if they don't want us to be negative."

The problem we're talking about is the trend of overzealous downvoting and closing, not deserved downvoting or closing. It's beginning to be difficult to ask any question on SO without someone downvoting or voting to close it. Often if they explain their reasoning, you realize they didn't even take the time to understand the question before trying to kick it off the site.

I'm beginning to think the attitude of "they're all stupid questions" might actually be a key part of what is causing this problem.

EDIT: I thought I'd clarify: the answer "because crap" doesn't answer the OP's question. I never anywhere said there wasn't a lot of crap. Instead, I tried to redirect back to the OP's original question of why is there negativity towards good questions?

My suggestion was that perhaps answerers are so used to looking through the vast amounts of crap, that they gain a general negative attitude that permeates some of their answers or attitude toward other questions. As a result, they are much more eager to downvote and close as a general attitude.

2
  • 1
    This is relevant: Rubber Duck Problem Solving.
    – user456814
    Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 22:57
  • 8
    @dallin questions are hard to ask by design. Stack Overflow forces you to do your best to do your own research and to try to solve your own problem first. I've actually been in situations where I'm in the middle of writing a question, and by the time I'm done, the process of writing the question has already helped me to find my own answer, so that I never even needed to post a question in the first place.
    – user456814
    Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 23:56
7
votes

I am a relatively newb user of this site(I like to think only in account age). Only recently have I begun to take notice and care about the health and how this site works (after I had admittedly commited the rep-whoring everybody is guilty of). I too have already become rather disgruntled at the utter lack of "care" that some users of this site show, both new and old.

It seems that the other newbie, ma-at, is one of the only answers that actually suggest possible solutions to the problem we have at hand. Perhaps we want to better define the actual problem first and then brainstorm solutions?

I don't think the problem is as simple as a because crap, or poor programmers, or homework questions, or even laziness*. These merely skirt around the problem. From my brief stay here, it is clear that these are merely side effects of the problem that this site seems to be experiencing.

It seems to me that the extreme low quality questions that seem to comprise a great majority of the currently asked questions are asked by people that show absolutely no care for the charter of this site or its rules to the point where they do not even display the capability to learn. This, to me, is the initial problem that serves as a catalyst driving certain people to respond to such low quality questions in hopes for easy reps, and the related chain of hate that awesome diagram shows. Even though I might not be the most active on this site, I still see that there are obviously more questions that seem to fail to actually diagnose a problem such that answerers can actually answer them. This conceivably causes experienced users, or heck, even newbie users such as me that actually RTFM to become frustrated with the community.

So this lack of care is spreading, people are becoming lazy. Good questions are sometimes burned because people either a) don't spend the time to read them, assuming that they are just a repeat of "how i debug this" or "give me the codes" or b) actually lack the understanding, but may carry high rep and the possibly associated high ego.

Now, I have actually experienced this first hand in kind. I asked this question once before the currently linked question, but it merely lacked the preface telling our fellow downvoters to not downvote my question because it's actually a good question and not a pasted "how do I debug my homework" question. That question was downvoted to oblivion and recieved TWO close votes. Having been literally the 4th question I asked, I almost lost it there and then and wanted to rant on and on. Even though this is just one example of the negativity that I have been seeing and sometimes am guilty of exhibiting, just this one example happening, to me, is completely unacceptable. We cannot be so lazy as to shoo away newer users that ask good questions. Perhaps lazy is the wrong word here, a more fitting word would be that it seems that the community lacks confidence in newer users' ability to ask coherent questions

How do we solve this? Well, I have one possible solution. Instead of attempting to address the problem that exists with the CURRENT active userbase, how about being slightly more selective as to who is allowed to participate on this site? A short and sweet 10-20 min "Introduction to StackOverflow" course that EVERY new (and existing user that is under some calculated cutoff) must take before they have the privilege of asking questions on the site? This course could have a quiz in the end, with questions that test the understanding of the charter of this site, and how to ask questions. I do not believe this is too much to ask from new users, because frankly, as a new user (unless you have been browsing SO for a long time, in which case you probably don't really even need to read the manual at all) you are NOT capable of asking a coherent question that follows this site's rules UNLESS you read the manual. If certain new users are not even willing to do that, then do they REALLY deserve to even belong in our great community? Conversely, if they DID care, then EVEN if they did ask trivial and stupid questions, they would respond well to feedback(however harsh that feedback is) and learn, slowly. Slowly and steadily, the general sense of a real community of programmers asking questions and giving answers to programming questions will return to the masses. Running with this idea, the moderating/review community could be given greater powers to maybe infract/warn new users that are STILL not exhibiting the bare-minimum qualities of a SO user, with a system that resembles that of many forums.

Regarding *****: and this laziness would not be exhibited in such great frequency if the new users were FORCED to be educated in the ways of SO.

Update:

Just an interesting piece from my absolutely riveting question (not really). I am astounded. In case it is deleted

This is just the type of thing that makes you ask : "are you kidding me, SO community member?"

0
6
votes

Why?

I try not to be negative on this site but I easily could be on poorly researched and poorly communicated questions. Based on reading in this topic, this seems to be one of the common issues.

How to improve the situation?

The most effective first step I can think of is to bake much more guidance into the question asking process. When I want to point new users to guidance on asking good questions, I always wonder why it isn't just built into the process. So here is one potential way to do that:

Example: Non-binding, Scored Checklist

When asking a question, we add a very visible and clickable check-list + score. The checklist covers the fundamentals of asking a good question. As they check off steps, the score increases. The question can be submitted without the checklist, but it will encourage people in a constructive way to submit excellent questions.

Please remember what it is like to be a beginner or new to a community.

If SO is your first programming community, you probably aren't aware of the expectations or impact of your (lack of) forethought when asking a question. I like to think that many people will work harder to do what is needed when the expectations are more obvious. By non-intrusively guiding askers through some fundamentals, I think we can raise the quality of questions, reduce the number of duplicates, increase happiness of answering users, etc.

4
  • I think that is one answer, but I think it should be paired with a second answer: better methods for dealing with poor questions that teach people to ask better questions and allow them to fix existing questions. The CLOSED stamp seems pretty final and offensive for most users. Most of them become defensive and don't learn from it as a result.
    – dallin
    Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 23:15
  • @dallin That's an excellent point about encouraging improvement instead of punishing when a post doesn't meet standards. Maybe On-hold with the points that need to be improved? I think these two ideas would go well together to make SO more welcoming and maintain quality at the same time.
    – KobeJohn
    Commented Apr 24, 2014 at 1:02
  • I love On-hold. Perfect way to express it. I think there is already a hold option of some sort but its rarely used. In addition, I never see people, nor have I personally tried to, resurrect their questions. Maybe the problem is poor communication of features and methods to users? I think in general the process is rather harsh and confusing, which doesn't lead to helping people ask better questions.
    – dallin
    Commented Apr 24, 2014 at 1:09
  • It's already called "on hold" for the first five days, @dallin, and reasons and links to relevant documentation are provided in the close banner.
    – jscs
    Commented Apr 24, 2014 at 1:15
6
votes

I'm a newbie myself and I've asked some stupid questions myself. I haven't been on SO for long enough to see this trend, however, I write this because I think my own experience may help explain this trend a bit.

Programming is becoming more and more mainstream and so is Stack Overflow. When I opened one of my very first programming books, which was completely for newbies, I read that Stack Overflow was the main Q&A-site for programming (which is true) and that I could go there and ask questions. So I did. The problem then is: being an absolute newbie, I often didn't even really know what I actually was asking about. There was just this problem in my code and I asked here for a solution. I couldn't really do research because I didn't know what to research about.

I think that today many many more absolute newbies who don´t really have an understanding of some of the concepts in programming ask questions on Stack Overflow than a while ago. That, as I tried to explain above, leads inevitably to questions that appear stupid to experienced programmers who know what search term to use for this and see the question as a duplicate. That, very understandably, annoys those experts who spend their time on Stack Overflow.

I don´t know how to improve it, I see it as sort of an natural side-effect of Stack Overflow, and programming in generally, becoming so popular.

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I think it would be helpful (for increasing quality) if the speed of Question->Comment->Comment->..Answer->Comment.. would be decreased by the process itself.

Now it is not uncommon that a question gets answered within seconds or minutes, just because it pops up somewhere. Stack Overflow users probably know this. They can get a good answer very quickly for free.

At the times of mail chess both parties had to think about their next move. The same was true with snail mail. Both parties had a time to think (days) before the next move. Some letters from that time went into the history.

It is the same with customer support (or helpdesk) service. Customer files in a ticket. Helpdesk has few hours to give first feedback, negotiate the problem and then a timeline is agreed, like - this is a low priority bug (no big damage) we will get you the fix within a month. Within that time the customer can add some more details, put some pressure, request temporary workaround, etc.

I'm new to the community. I did not ask any questions myself, and I'm used to solve problems on my own by research, etc. Just my first feelings.

Slow down. Force both parties (Question/Comment/Answer) to take breath and think instead of tweeting.

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    I've sometimes posted a question, hoping there might be an answer within 24hrs. When the correct answer comes back within 5 minutes it feels like I've just got a hug from a stranger while looking at a rainbow :-) Commented Apr 24, 2014 at 8:56
  • @Darren nice, but the transcendent collective mind that composes the stranger is getting nervous and negative due to too many kids rushing around. Saying "hush get calm" might cool the mind down and make everyone more happy. Usually there is no need to hurry up and get answer in 5 minutes. The SO mind does not have enough brain cells and sufficient telepathy capabilities to stand this stampede on and on. That seems to be the reason why is SO so negative and the "take breath and think" might help (IMHO)
    – xmojmr
    Commented Apr 24, 2014 at 9:59
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This is what I have seen from this site and from my own experience. If you at least show you put in some research effort, you are less likely to be down voted to an oblivion. If you are going to post a question asking about code, make sure to post code examples of what you are referring to. Also vague questions and placing things in the wrong area will get you negative attention as well.

Now my feedback on the things mentioned above:

Research goes hand and hand with programming. I have throughout my career had to be on a project where I hadn't used a specific language before or had to integrate with 3rd party software I never had training on before or used before. I had to learn as I went with books and/or online resources and if I got stuck, kept going and trying to figure out the best solution or technique through, at times, trial and error. All this with while working extra time to not only keep the project on task but also to give myself more time for the learning curve. I think these sites tend to be used to quickly as a quick "crutch" to be used instead of doing the grunt work ourselves. I believe that is why some get down voted and causes the frustrated reactions.

For the vague questions and placing things in the wrong place. That seems to have gotten better where someone will just move the question yourself. I think a little more tolerance needs to be given for these types of questions, especially newcomers. I could see how it could get frustrating to the higher end user base (those with more reputation) because they deal with it more often. Though someone should not be drilled for other questions that aggravated them before. I have had someone mention "this was not a programming question" but was something related to programming. That was all they mentioned and I got down voted. That is not really helpful at all for anyone else who may have had a similar question I asked. A simple, this area would be better suited would work. As I mentioned earlier, I have seen this has gotten better throughout the site at least in my experience. Also, just down voting without any feedback isn't really helpful for the poster either. That speaks more of just a "I want to make this negative" without posting any constructive criticism to help the posts get better.

That is my 2 cents.

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My opinion - my very humble, first-day newbie opinion - is that this progression towards negativity is pretty much the norm for an internet forum of growing popularity and functionality.

I was not among the pioneers or even the early users of SO, so I cannot speak from experience, but from my observation this community started as a smallish group of dedicated, interested, programmers who genuinely enjoyed using their knowledge to help out their peers and getting some advice in return when needed. Slowly, the small community grew and attracted more of these educated, experienced people as well as new programmers looking for help. Now, all of these people were more than likely very familiar with computers and the internet - after all, that kind of knowledge generally goes hand-in-hand with programming know-how. It wasn't very hard to keep the community high-quality, because people who didn't care about it weren't invested in it.

But then, gradually, computer use became more and more widespread, and the internet became a staple for daily living. As the popularity of computers increased, so did the computer-related jobs, and so did the educational field of computer science. Now, programming is huge, both in the job market and in education, and millions of people have some sort of stake in it.

I'm kind of feeling like I'm starting to stray from the point a bit here, so I'm going to get right to it. The problem, as I see it, is that this is The Internet we're dealing with. No longer is it just that first group of heavily invested, educated computer scientists, or even the later group of knowledge-seekers. The Internet is the land of trolls, spam, scams, hacks, and general dickheadedness, and even a focused-topic forum like SO will be affected by that to a degree.

Nowadays, who can use a computer? Pretty much anyone. And who can go to community college and take some CS courses? Pretty much anyone. Whereas the programming community was once small but invested and experienced, now it is massive, relatively inexperienced, and only invested as far as passing the class goes. (Please note that I'm not trying to put down the members of the community who are dedicated, educated, and heavily invested. I'm simply attempting to describe the more recent influx of "programmers".)

Anyways, as I stated in the beginning, this kind of thing basically happened to the entire Internet. More access led to less-educated (or just lazier) people frequenting the web, which led to overall lower-quality content. We'll call it my Theory of General Negativity. :P

And that is pretty much all I've got on that as of now. I could be entirely wrong about a lot of things here, but I did not see this in any of the previous answers, and I thought I'd put in my two cents. Thanks for reading this little spiel, and I hope to continue to be a productive part of the SO community. Ciao!

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