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This is not a duplicate of Why is Stack Overflow so negative of late (N.ed: since 2014). It's a constructive board for considering three banal constructive points, and eventually their positive effects on the related (linked) topic. Not about bashing site owners, moderators, privileged users, or new users.

Tl;Dr:

  • downgrade -1 to downvoters in order to reflect what we currently have for answers downvoters.
  • longer grace edit time (no-close) for new users questions
  • no sub-zero reputation (for fresh new users, at least)

I've been asked (already way too) many times by dear friends, colleagues: why Stack Overflow, the renown website where developers ask and get help, is on a bad reputation amongst the new-coming community? — without me relieving spirits with an objective conclusion. Realizing after a lengthy, saddening research how a good part of the Internet (articles, vlogs, you name it) do mention their concerns about the way the established senior (privileged / administrative) community handles new users

  • Stack Overflow is evil
  • (...) a place of downvote trigger-happy people who don't even take the time to understa(...)
  • Stack Overflow is a bunch of self-centric moderators (N.ed: vote privileged users) with self-esteem issu(...)
  • I'm afraid to ask questions there

and the list goes on.

and I know this is not true. Or at least I'd like to believe we (me) can do better.

I also know bad news are spoken about, whilst good are not much. But frankly I know it's not the real picture, since I witnessed (in my 13 years here) a really beautiful community; new users with good structured questions being upvoted, even praised for their efforts in asking, explaining their problem; but also seeing question being deleted in less than a couple of minutes (sometimes even after me writing a good bunch of code as an answer). So I'm not arguing about questions like: "Why-red-is-blue-but-XY-Problem?" which indeed might infuriate any living being, but for people who do actually ask in their best efforts or knowledge (or language barriers) — finding themselves suspended from asking any more questions for N days as a welcome.

My question to you here is:

Do you think if we give a -1 to question downvoters, would it trigger a more positive self-action-introspection on the downvoter part like the following?

  • "wait, let me really read this first"
  • "undo -1! Let me comment to this new user first"

If we gave a longer grace time (before close / delete) to a question, would it make the experience for new users more positive in general? -

  • "Ups, I messed up, I see. Let me rephrase my question, just give me some more time, I'm new to this"

Do not go below zero for new accounts

  • "My first day in the community and I got -2?! Am I really a bad developer?"

I know that throughout the years there was a thoughtful amount of time and actual improvements spent on the site's UI for people coming fresh ("XYUser is a new member! Mind your tone!" or like: "XYUser, please do read this"), but we all know by heart that sometimes in a hurry, to just ask and get a response — reading pages and pages of instructions might be overwhelming whilst we have a burning question about a topic on which we either already lost days or burnt already a good amount of sanity.
So again, can we do better?

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    "why Stack Overflow, the renown website where developers ask and get help, is on a bad reputation amongst the new-coming community?" Because newcomers have wrong expectations about the site and the company in charge is not doing enough to educate new users.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Mar 16, 2023 at 23:43
  • 11
    So you are focusing on this from the perspective of new users, but what about from the perspective of the site? What would the site gain from less downvotes on questions? Are these questions not bad quality? Do these questions not deserve downvotes? If that is so, I doubt punishing voters for this is the right option.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Mar 16, 2023 at 23:46
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    A question that needs closing should be closed as soon as possible. It should probably even start in a closed state. Maybe this would be more welcoming to new users. We also have the promise of Staging Ground which is in the works. It will do exactly what you are proposing. No post score, no public view for questions from new users and all questions start in a closed state (they can't get answers until published).
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Mar 16, 2023 at 23:49
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    If someone who writes a question thinks that they are a bad developer for writing bad question they are heavily mistaken. Imagine a cook that undertakes writing books. If their books don't sell, they have no basis for thinking that they are a bad cook.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Mar 16, 2023 at 23:51
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    Your whole meta post is one of the common misconceptions among newcomers to this site. They believe that votes on their posts are the reflection of them as a people. That's absurd. Votes are on content, not on people. Voting on people is forbidden and moderators will step in when someone does that.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Mar 16, 2023 at 23:53
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    Also, newcomers don't have to start by asking questions. They can start by answering questions. Remember that Stack Overflow is not a help desk. Questions askers are normal contributors who thought about an interesting question they wanted to share with the community. Question askers don't necessarily need to be new to programming. In fact, they may already know the best answer before posting the question.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Mar 16, 2023 at 23:56
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    Questions authors have an infinite amount of time to avoid their questions from being closed, the time to improve their questions, is before it’s asked. If I spend 3-4 hours asking my own question, making sure it expresses exactly what I want to ask, I expect others to do the same. Instead I see users submitting 3-4 (or more) questions in an hour. Commented Mar 16, 2023 at 23:58
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    Instead of changing the behaviour of the site, we should change the perception of the site for the people who are complaining about it.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Mar 17, 2023 at 0:11
  • 3
    There is no problem on SO, it's fine the way it is. The things that make new users happy will harm the goals of stackoverflow. Also, what does ...downgrade -1 to downvoters... mean exactly? Who gets the -1? Commented Mar 17, 2023 at 0:31
  • 5
    Please don't put "Edit:" in your question just like you would never put it in a question on the main site. The question should always represent its current state. There should be no "edit"s or "update"s. Edit the question if it's missing information, but don't state which parts were edited in..
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Mar 17, 2023 at 0:38
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    @PresidentJamesK.Polk OP means that a downvotes costs 1 point for the downvoter, like it does for downvoting answers.
    – Tom
    Commented Mar 17, 2023 at 1:42
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    -1 for all votes may get much better support... Why on Earth even this attempt at asking about improvements ignores bogus upvotes? :( Commented Mar 17, 2023 at 3:16
  • 4
    "no sub-zero reputation (for fresh new users, at least)" there has never been reputation less than 1. When a new user with rep of 1 receives a downvote on any of their posts their reputation stays at 1. And if they get an upvote after that, their reputation goes to 11, even though the post might be at +1 / -1.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Mar 17, 2023 at 6:04
  • 2
    this is probably related: What were the results of the A/B experiment where negative question scores were clamped to 0?
    – gnat
    Commented Mar 17, 2023 at 8:07
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    Apparently I am not a developer, because I search instead of asking and because I'm at least half-decent at doing that I haven't had to ask a question yet since Stack Overflow already has all the answers, or some other site does. Saves a lot of time, you don't have to wait for answers to appear, they're already there. I really thought I was doing the right thing too, but apparently this site is all about asking questions. Oh well.
    – Gimby
    Commented Mar 17, 2023 at 9:05

1 Answer 1

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why Stack Overflow, the renown website where developers ask and get help, is on a bad reputation amongst the new-coming community?

Note carefully: ask and get help.

Not: "ask to get help".

Like code, questions are read far more often than they are written. The OP is only one of countless people that a good question can serve - one in a sea of all the others who find it with a search engine.

If people with search engines find bad questions, that means the site is not working as intended.

Stack Overflow is not a discussion forum. Think of new questions as a bug report: they claim that a useful Q&A pair is missing from the Stack Overflow Q&A library, and start the process of restoring that Q&A, by providing the Q half. (Or both.)

How a good part of the internet (articles, vlogs, name it) do mention their concerns about

Yes. Many, many people expect Stack Overflow to work in a way that it fundamentally does not. I've seen several of these critiques myself.

There are two key reasons for this:

  1. We can't tell them up front, because we don't have enough control over the site software and because the system is not designed to guide them.

  2. People expect it to work like a discussion forum, because they strongly associate "user-generated content" with "discussion forum" a priori and because of the site UI affordances. That is to say: Stack Overflow looks a lot more like Reddit than it does like Wikipedia. It's constantly throwing a sorted list of posts at you, rather than constantly expecting you to look for a specific topic or follow links from a previous topic. It puts comments immediately underneath questions, before the actual answers, and doesn't hide or collapse them by default. The voting system, including raw numbers, is in plain view. The question is visually distinguished from answers; it strongly establishes the notion of an "OP".

But that doesn't change what we are.

but for people who do actually ask in their best efforts or knowledge (or language barriers) — finding themselves suspended from asking any more questions for N days as a welcome.

It's not about their level of understanding of the material. It's about their ability to post questions that meet standards. Trivial, beginner-level questions are perfectly okay. Unclear, rambling/multi-part, off-topic or duplicate questions are not. We want research effort insofar as, and because it helps with making the question precise, accurate and understandable, and insofar as it helps OP to find existing duplicates rather than making us have to close them.

That said, I agree that the question-ban algorithm comes across as arbitrary, capricious and often absurdly severe. To my understanding, that's partly because it's part of the same system that excludes spammers. It could still use a lot of work, but that's way beyond scope here.

do you think if we give a -1 to question downvoters

It would likely do nothing significant. Downvotes on questions don't come from people who care a lot about reputation. Those people instead answer inappropriate questions (mainly duplicates) in search of a quick +25 (upvote + accept) and upvote them (in a spirit of reciprocality). People like myself, who downvote questions (and answers) because they need to be downvoted, are practically looking for ways to give away excess reputation. I've put 250-point bounties on a few questions lately because they needed an answer I couldn't provide myself (good versions of commonly-asked questions that were missing some specific detail in the answers). That's more than a week of -1s at 30/day (system limit), all at once. Since I'm doing it to make the site better rather than to increase a number next to my name, you can't threaten me this way.

if we gave a longer grace time (before close / delete) to question

If it were up to me, questions would start closed.

Closure is not only reversible, it's generally hoped and intended that closures (aside from duplicates, typos, and irredeemably off-topic questions) will be reversed. The point of closing an unclear question is to prevent people from trying to answer it until it is clarified. We want OP to try to clarify the question, so that it can be opened and get answers. For unfocused questions, similarly, we want OP to try to work through the logical steps of the problem, figure out a specific sticking point, and edit the question to be specifically about that. For questions about code that doesn't work, we want OP to attempt debugging, locate a specific cause for the problem, and produce a MRE. When this process actually leaves OP still wondering about something, that question could end up being one of the best and most important on the site - although I personally define terms such that these questions are no longer "debugging questions".

Do not go below zero for new accounts

This would require considerable redesign to avoid undesirable second-order effects. I've thought about it before too. A lot. I agree that the psychological impact matters.

but we all know by hearth that sometimes in a hurry, to just ask and get a response

That's not what the site is for. There is no sense of urgency here, and the question is not just for you, the asker.

People who want to "just ask something and get a response" are people who want to use a discussion forum. This is not one.

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    Thank you for quoting my three main points, actually answering them, and even touching the technicalities of eventually adopting them. Really appreciated Karl. Commented Mar 17, 2023 at 0:48

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