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I know this question has been asked before, but I think it needs to be asked again since it is an ongoing effort to have a changing community finding the right balance.

Today a new user on Stack Overflow asked a question containing an expected output, a piece of code and actual output. In other words, a legitimate question which more or less complies with the Stack Overflow guidelines, but with an answer that is probably too simple and specific to be usable for anyone but the OP.

This new user got at the time of writing 9 downvotes without a single one bothering to leave a comment explaining the reason for the downvote. This is an efficient method to scare off new users.

Clearly, one can imagine cases where users are spamming the site with nonsense and they need to be told that in unambiguous terms, but I think it happens far too often that such hard ammunition is aimed at users with good intentions who are more in need of kind advice.

In my opinion, the current culture on Stack Overflow is too excluding and occasionally arrogant in general and particularly towards new users.

So the question is: Am I right in this opinion and if so, where, and how could we change this culture?

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  • 2
    Does this answer your question? What about the community is "toxic" to new users?
    – gparyani
    Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 10:26
  • 33
    The user didn't get downvotes, the post did.
    – rene
    Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 10:32
  • 20
    If people's expectations of "being nice" is to help every new user out with their personal problems regardless of how the question is phrased, then it's those expectations that need to be readjusted.
    – E_net4
    Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 10:36
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    That comment in the linked question was also unwarranted, especially the part "It would be nice if downvoters explained the reason, but I suppose sometimes people are just in a bad mood". Leaving any feedback alongside a downvote is not mandatory (don't shame those who do it either), and you should not be giving the idea that downvotes are just made out of spite.
    – E_net4
    Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 10:40
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    I believe this to be a duplicate of What really amounts to "be nice to new contributors"?
    – E_net4
    Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 10:42
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    That post, that you've linked to, looks like something treating Stack Overflow like it's a free coding service; I'm not surprised it got so many downvotes. SO is not a free coding service. Code Dumping, and effectively "Fix my code", is not a helpful question; it's not even a question.
    – Thom A
    Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 10:42
  • this is a somple debug it yourself question. and should be closed as such
    – nbk
    Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 11:10
  • There's a warning in comment box "...is a new contributor. Be nice". But I think it was most because the question was poorly formatted (someone added it later) without any explanation of the problem.
    – suriyel
    Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 11:47
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    You say that the question "more or less complies with the StackOverflow guidelines" but the very article you link says that the problem has to be explained. We have some program, some wrong output and some expected output. No explanation what the program should do. We're expected to reverse-engineer it based on the expected output (and who knows if that is even possible - I've seen impossible expectations). There is an entire headline called Introduce the problem before you post any code and I don't see that in the post. The title is a perfect match for the Bad example of titles.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 11:50
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    @suriyel And that is a fair point to make and perhaps cast a downvote, but I would say that if I bother to cast a downvote I should also write a comment saying that the question is poorly formatted. Otherwise, I should just ignore it. The downvote by itself is not constructive.
    – nielsen
    Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 11:51
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    @neilsen it is very constructive - it stops other people from opening a question that their time is not well spent on
    – Clive
    Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 11:55
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    The downvote by itself is relevant. It's a signal of quality on a post. A question or answer with a score of -1 is definitely perceived differently from one with a score of 0. It may not give much to the author of the post, but that is not the main purpose of the vote anyway. So no, ignoring a post is no better than downvoting it if merited. This isn't the first this is brought up. Please read the faq on mandatory feedback alongside votes and this FAQ proposal on why downvoting is important to the site.
    – E_net4
    Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 11:56
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    Oh..THAT question. I noticed it earlier. It had a vague, near-useless title and two blocks of char dumps with no immediate clue as to why they existed, why they were different or how they were related to the code supplied. I VTC as 'Needs details'. I did not bother to downvote it - after VTC, I had wasted enough time on it already. Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 11:57
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  • 1
    "In other words, a legitimate question which more or less complies with the StackOverflow guidelines, but with an answer that is probably too simple and specific to be usable for anyone but the OP.", in essence, the user asked a valid, legitimate question... that isn't useful. What are downvotes for?
    – Kevin B
    Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 18:49

1 Answer 1

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Do we need to be nicer to new users?

No, new users could be a bit more thoughtful towards us.

Today a new user on StackOverflow asked a question containing an expected output, a piece of code and actual output. In other words, a legitimate question which more or less complies with the StackOverflow guidelines,

No, it did not comply with guidelines. Where is the error? Where is the description of what currently happens? Where is the debug attempt / results?

This new user got at the time of writing 9 downvotes without a single one bothering to leave a comment explaining the reason for the downvote.

The post got downvotes, not the user. Please stop with the argument that downvotes are aimed at the user. You don't use the same argument for upvotes, right?

That question got all kind of comments pointing out the trivial mistake. So now it is not only enough to leave a helpful comment but you have to be explicit why you downvoted a post?

This is an efficient method to scare off new users.

That might be so but I see it as an efficient way to scare of posts that won't be useful for future readers. Yes, that means this user might get trapped in the quality algorithm sooner or later but having less low-quality posts is so much more valuable then having a relentless stream of sub-par content.

Am I right in this opinion and if so, where and how could we change this culture?

Yes, you're right with your opinion. I suggest we start changing the culture at the start / on-boarding of new users to make explicit that asking here and getting an answer is not a human right. If we can change the culture of new users so they make it their habit to contribute the same high quality content that lead them to this site in the first place, we wouldn't have so much contention between the existing experts that share their knowledge for free and the visitors that want to benefit from it.

If you're not yet at the quality level required by Stack Overflow, practice at Quora, Reddit or other traditional forums.

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    It is a fair answer. Not the one I hoped for, but there is no point in asking a question if one does not want to hear the answer. Not surprisingly I disagree in most of your points. It is a bit difficult to argue in the comment format, but this sentence "Please stop with the argument that downvotes are aimed at the user" summarizes what I think is wrong. Why should I stop the argument? It is my opinion. Am I not allowed to express it just because you disagree? Should the site be cleansed of opinions not shared by the majority? In any case, thank you for the answer, I respect your opinion.
    – nielsen
    Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 11:12
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    @nielsen why do you think downvotes are aimed at users? So long as one side says they aren't and one side says they are, we aren't getting anywhere. At least the side of downvotes on content can point to to documentation and policy on the intended use. Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 11:21
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    Annacdotal evidence, but at least personally, the usercard is the UI element I look at least. How can I be voting on the user rather than content if I haven't read who the user is until after voting? Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 11:26
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    @nielsen Providing a suggestion to the user that the votes were based on "bad moods" (as you did) and not about the poor content quality is totally counterproductive to trying to help that user though. Same goes for your comment to the user that there is nothing wrong with their question when it clearly does not meet site guidelines which is what prompted the votes in the first place
    – charlietfl
    Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 11:33
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    @nielsen Not all users are new. There are some with 1 reputation who don't participate, but rather comment on posts. Now, checking out a user's profile to see if they're new or not is a complete waste of time. Reading the rules and asking good quality questions is, IMO, a better option for new users.
    – Justin
    Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 11:34
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    "No, new users could be a bit more thoughtful towards us." I'd say "yes". We can always be nicer. But the rest of the sentence remains relevant. Courtesy is not a one-way street.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 11:38
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    We need more and better management of bad questions, not less. It would help if more users got effectively involved with curation - some users have an up/down vote ratio of infinity, and that is not good for site quality:( Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 11:39
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    @nielsen what I don't understand is this. If a user read through stackoverflow.com/help/how-to-ask why are they surprised downvotes are cast on their question? That page is linked from the /ask "wizard". So it is totally fine to skip all that and then wait for someone to spoon-feed guidance that they should have consumed themselves 6 to 8 hours earlier. We have created idownvotedbecau.se which we can't fully leverage because new users are offended by that as well. We can't do one-on-one mentoring. We tried, it didn't scale.
    – rene
    Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 11:42
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    I'm not a mob! Stop insulting me and my fellow curators.
    – rene
    Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 11:43
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    @VLAZ yes or no, enough is enough. There seems to be no limit on how courteous I need to be.
    – rene
    Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 11:45
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    Is it time for another pagefull of rude/abusive questions from new use....accounts? Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 11:48
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    "Why should I stop the argument? It is my opinion." It's not an opinion, your understanding, @nielsen , is wrong. Me stating "Grass is Purple" isn't an opinion; is simply wrong. Votes have never been about the user, you can see that simply by hovering over said vote options with your cursor. "This question shows" not "This User". If votes were about users, they would be on the User profile page, not the question.
    – Thom A
    Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 15:39
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    @suriyel I'm not sure if the experts you need will go to such site. That is not a unique idea. That has been proposed more then once in the past. meta.stackexchange.com/questions/50409/… and direct links: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/linked/50409?lq=1
    – rene
    Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 17:03
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    @rene Some see the knee-taking grovelling subservience as 'courteous', others as 'look how stupid the naive nerds are, doing all that obvious homework for the street-wise con artists! I'll get them to do my work too, since I'm way smarter than they are!' (Yes, you know this, but I had to say it:) Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 17:19
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    @nielsen I would not go near such a site. Just one problem with so-called 'learners' is that some are totally incompetent and have designed/written/built/tested/debugged nothing. When you ask them to print out some value as a debug aid, they don't know how to do it because they are clueless scammers, taking money to get assignments done and merely reposting to SO. Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 17:43

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