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Problem

There appear to be quite some not descriptive question titles that boil down to [program language]-noob here..., noob-question why does y do y? (See for yourself.)

The actual questions might be valid and quite some have answers to them, but the bad title always severely undercuts the question's quality.

Related: The section on "Degradation of Self or Others" in What should I keep out of my posts and titles?

Proposed solution

Blacklist the string 'noob' and its variants such as 'newb', 'newbie', 'newbee', 'n00b' from appearing in a question's title.

This kind of blacklisting has already been done with other strings.

The string 'beginner' might have proper use and would need separate discussion if to be considered at all.

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  • 24
    Newbie has 110k results, destroying noob, newb has 6k, newbee has 1k, n00b has 3k, beginner has 7k title matches: stackoverflow.com/search?q=title%3Abeginner and 170k uses including use outside titles: stackoverflow.com/search?q=beginner (where valid uses are far more frequent, but this is a title ban question, and not a post content ban, so those are generally irrelevant) Commented Jan 9, 2023 at 16:01
  • 35
    You just create this game of whack-a-mole that people will work around. That's why you see so many posts that start "I have a porblem..." Commented Jan 9, 2023 at 16:11
  • 95
    Ideally, it'd be more than just a blacklist, and instead a "Hey! It looks like your title isn't very descriptive. Titles should briefly inform readers of the problem being solved." rather than "These words are not allowed in titles: 'help'.. See [Writing Good Titles]." when we know the majority of users will not follow a link, especially when the message before the link tells you how to do away with the error.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jan 9, 2023 at 16:15
  • 4
    See meta.stackexchange.com/questions/112944/… Commented Jan 9, 2023 at 16:16
  • 28
    @Robert That doesn't mean the blacklist is futile; "People will work around it" isn't a good argument unless we actually end up with worse post titles overall because of it. If even some people take the hint and rewrite their title into something more useful as a result, it will have accomplished its goal. That said– I fully agree that blacklisting "problem" is and always has been dumb– but "newb" never belongs in a title, full stop.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Jan 9, 2023 at 16:18
  • 5
    The fact that I've seen people intentionally introduce typograhical errors into their title to get around errors like "A question with that title already exists" makes me think that this'll cause people to find more "dumb" ways to spell newbie; though hopefully, it'll deter more than those that decide to be "imaginative" with their spellings.
    – Thom A
    Commented Jan 9, 2023 at 16:24
  • 6
    The lack of research here is kind of hard to get over. Are we supposed to do the legwork to prove this is an issue? Your search doesn't even return posts with the word n3wb in the title, or n00b, or noob or whatever the goal was here. "There appears to be a problem" is simply not convincing. Research is as much appreciated on meta as it is on main.
    – Travis J
    Commented Jan 9, 2023 at 17:39
  • 39
    Keep in mind: github.com/raspberrypi/noobs
    – ggorlen
    Commented Jan 9, 2023 at 18:37
  • 1
    I could back a proposal like this. If you can force people to stop and think long enough about describing the problem, odds are good they'll find the solution and not have to ask the question. Commented Jan 9, 2023 at 19:21
  • 2
    I'm not against this as long as high-reputation users can still use it. Other words like "problem" have been banned before and it's caused problems (pun intended). There are probably fewer good reasons to use "noob" than to use "problem", but it's impossible to say in advance that there will never be any valid uses of the word. Also as an editor I hate it when I can't edit old posts because the title contains a word that's now banned. Commented Jan 9, 2023 at 19:32
  • 4
    @user3840170 There are far too many legitimate uses of some of those to ban them.
    – pigrammer
    Commented Jan 9, 2023 at 21:46
  • 3
    In my opinion you never ever have a reason to refer to one's developmental state (I.E. if you're a novice or not), whether it be your own or someone else's. The only reason people want to do that is because they want to use it as an excuse and/or a shield or you are genuinely not aware of the purpose of Stack Overflow. A question which does try to do it is almost certainly going to be a question which is not going to do well and should probably be posted on a different site altogether. So yeah, I would be in favour of blacklisting all such terms. On the main site only, of course.
    – Gimby
    Commented Jan 10, 2023 at 11:07
  • 2
    @Larnu "Creative" spellings like those are generally a good tell that a question is rubbish, so even if the asker manages to circumvent the filter, reviewers can quickly tell that they should probably close said question. At best we're preventing badly-titled questions from being posted, at worst we have the same amount of work as currently... doesn't seem like a problem to me. As I've said in the past, please let's not allow perfect to be the enemy of good enough.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Jan 10, 2023 at 12:45
  • 12
    @clockw0rk Stack Overflow is intended to be a high-quality repository of questions and answers. Superfluous slang like "n00b" is entirely contrary to high quality.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Jan 10, 2023 at 14:34
  • 3
    @edjm Proposals for [beginner] tags or similar level tags have been discussed to death and ultimately were declined. We want all questions (and answers) to be of similarly high quality, not striated with bands of crap-level questions, middling-level questions, and great questions. Commented Jan 12, 2023 at 15:22

7 Answers 7

64

I could agree with blacklisting it from titles if and only if an accompanying explanation as to why this isn't a good fit for a title followed it.

The challenge there is getting prose written that's simple enough to understand for someone in this mentality that makes it clear as to why this isn't advised.

A lot of people use it as a scapegoat without really realizing that the scapegoat isn't needed here, and there will (more than likely) be a kind of tug-of-war when it comes to the curation/moderation aspect, as one could believe that stating your obvious lacking skill in something would justify a bad question.

Whatever prose we come up with, we have to avoid that scenario.

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  • 5
    Some verbiage to pick and choose from: "Please do not try to categorize the difficulty of the material, or your own level of experience, in question titles. As Stack Overflow is not a discussion forum, this is not relevant information. Questions that meet standards will be answered at a level appropriate to the question, and answers will be edited for clarity if necessary. Each question may be simple or at an introductory level; but it must be specific, asked clearly and directly, on topic, and not a duplicate. Please see How to Ask and the tour for details." Commented Jan 12, 2023 at 5:55
  • Also consider that some users first language is not English.
    – MT1
    Commented Jan 12, 2023 at 16:30
  • 2
    @KarlKnechtel: I prefer, "Don't worry about your expertise level; all levels of developers are welcome here!" instead. Concise, to the point, and someone won't immediately scream "tl;dr" like I just did when reading the long prose.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 12, 2023 at 20:26
54

My opinion is that the current experience level of a developer or the perceived state of code never needs to be labelled while posting a minimal, clear, reproducible question or educational answer.

That said, I believe that targeting the keyword "noob" (and its spelling variations) is only calling out a fraction of a whole group of reasonably scrubbed content from posts.

Every post that I've ever encountered that includes self-deprecating terminology would have been just as clear without it.

We should play the long game here.

  1. Officially ask users to not include these superfluous remarks while posting content (questions, answers, and comments) via help text.
  2. Encourage reviewers and editors to remove irrelevant text.

Removing the noob name-calling from content just goes into the same routine as removing:

  • "Thanks in advance"
  • "Anyone can suggest a good approach"
  • "Hi Stack Overflow readers"
  • "I have been researching for days"
  • "This is my grandma's code"
  • "If I need to add more details, just tell me what you need"
  • "Sorry, I've only been a [language] programmer for 2 days"
  • ... and much, much more.

Whenever posting or editing, simply ask yourself if the text is just as potent with less text -- that should generally guide you to a better result.

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    Exactly as I was going to say. Phrases like these are noise that should be removed, even if there's a good question underneath. OP's search, with a bit of modification, gives a great starting point for editors looking for something to do. Commented Jan 9, 2023 at 23:42
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    Editing is certainly a much more productive path to go here, or even a warning as KevinB alludes to in the comments on this main post. Don't go editing out comments about grandma's code though, those are crucial, and indicate to readers that everything is just the way it should be. That code has been in the family for generations.
    – Travis J
    Commented Jan 10, 2023 at 3:48
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    and the ubiquitous "I have a doubt". Which isn't just superfluous, but very very bad English.
    – jwenting
    Commented Jan 10, 2023 at 7:38
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    @jwenting A lot of users here aren't native English speakers so I don't see the point in calling that out.
    – Soltius
    Commented Jan 10, 2023 at 8:43
  • @Soltius it's almost become a meme over the years for homework questions asked by lazy schoolkids.
    – jwenting
    Commented Jan 10, 2023 at 8:45
  • Oh OK. Could also stem from a literal translation from OP's original language (eg French).
    – Soltius
    Commented Jan 10, 2023 at 8:48
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    @jwenting - As far as I know in Indian English that is more or less synonymous with "I have a question" - so it is just a dialect thing (like "trunk" vs "boot"). See also english.stackexchange.com/a/294126/17611 Commented Jan 10, 2023 at 10:32
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    Regardless, we don't need askers to tell us that "they have a question/doubt". We can figure that out from the fact that they are posting a question. Commented Jan 10, 2023 at 11:26
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    @mickmackusa You would think that, and you would thus be doing more thinking than the users who generally post such questions.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Jan 10, 2023 at 12:47
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    I wonder if "noob question" really does belong in a list of superfluous phrases. I find myself increasingly adding little markers to indicate the scope of the question. Eg I sometimes write "this is not an XY question, I really want to know this"... and the opposite end of the spectrum I sometimes want to express "I don't really know what I'm doing here, feel free to re-engineer my solution". To me "noob question" says that so much more succinctly. Commented Jan 11, 2023 at 15:59
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    There is nothing wrong with inviting contributors to offer completely different approaches versus what you've attempted. You don't need to put yourself down with some slang term. Intelligently state your concerns and ultimate desired result; subject matter experts will sniff out XY problems. Commented Jan 11, 2023 at 19:55
  • I think that may by the trickiest problem of the term. I wouldn't even see it as [self] deprecating though I wouldn't use it to describe others in a public setting. I think it's a term that has wildly different emotional impact depending on the reader. Commented Jan 11, 2023 at 21:32
  • @IanKemp my thesis is that typical Internet denizens are addicted to discussion forums, and cannot see any site that hosts UGC as anything other than a discussion forum. It's not that they aren't thinking about the fact that "I have a question" is superfluous before asking a question; it's that they either don't care, or consider it proper etiquette to try to get someone's attention before beginning to speak. Commented Jan 12, 2023 at 5:58
  • @Soltius The point in calling that out is so that they improve. Simple as that.
    – dumbass
    Commented Jan 12, 2023 at 14:09
26

Banning words from titles will do little to change the underlying insecurity of the author.

English has many words, inflections and speech patterns which are used to alter the way in which the raw content will be perceived. A classic example is adding "Well, ..." to the beginning of an answer which, depending on inflection, may indicate either a patient and respectful response, or an impatient and exasperated retort, to the asker's question.

While these kinds of "interjections" are not desirable in our formal Q&A format, it's an uphill battle to fight back against the perfectly common human desire to couch or shroud our ignorance (which may feel very vulnerable) in protective word salads: preemptive apologizing ("Sorry, I should know this, but..."), submissive contextualizing ("I know this is a noob/student question...") and relationship building ("Hi and thanks for reading!"), just to name a few.

All that to say... banning "noob" will just cause authors to reach for other words or phrases to communicate their discomfort and attempt to shield themselves from group shaming. We already encourage new users to avoid this kind of "noise", and as they gain experience and confidence it will hopefully feel less necessary. In the meantime, it's not hard for higher rep users to edit this content out.

Given how little is gained and the annoyance some will feel when writing legitimate questions, I think it'd be best to avoid this particular feature request. For example: you would not have been able to write your question title as-is with such a filter in place. 😉

It's not hard to imagine fairly legit titles that would include such a common word:

  • How can I filter out words like "noob" from this list?
  • My console output doesn't match this "From Noob to Pro" tutorial
  • How can I replace politician's name with "noob" in this gag browser plugin?

Data suggests "noob" alone isn't currently a significant problem

The hard numbers would also suggest that, while it might be irritating to see in a title, the problem is really not that widespread.

As of January, 2023, there are about 350 questions with "noob" in the title with a score of 1 or higher, that aren't closed, dating back across the past 14 years. Assuming the score and close-state indicate a sufficiently-high quality question that required no other editing, then that means that this proposal would save us the effort of editing about 2 questions per month, on average.

There may have been many more that originally included "noob" but were subsequently edited. In that case: the system seems to be working just fine. Questions with zero or less score or that have been closed clearly had other issues already, where removing a single word from the title would not have saved them.

What's the justification for "noob" over "beginner", "student" or more controversial words?

In my opinion, banning this one non-offensive word is not going to save editors any time, and will lead to a bunch of other requests to ban similarly informal but innocuous words, which would naturally lead to the question: if we are banning words which are not controversial, what about all the controversial words we allow, like "blacklist"?

In summary:

  • If you ban "noob", then users will just say "student", "beginner", "newbie", etc, which hasn't saved anybody any work
  • I'd argue it's rare that a question with "noob" in the title will have no other issues that must be addressed. Banning this one word will, in my opinion, not reduce a significant amount of work for editors
  • "Noob" is an informal, silly word that can nevertheless be used appropriately in a question title. It is not inherently offensive to any group of users, unlike certain other words (like "blacklist")
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    Given how little is gained and the annoyance some will feel when writing legitimate questions, I think it'd be best to avoid this particular feature request. Unfortunately we as curators are placed in a position where we have to choose the lesser of two evils: preventing the asking of some questions that are perfectly on-topic for this site, or actually having enough capacity to curate the site enough to prevent it from turning into a completely useless cesspool. Sorry, but I'll take option two.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Jan 11, 2023 at 22:04
  • The example question titles you gave are pretty contrived and easily rephrased without the word.
    – dumbass
    Commented Jan 12, 2023 at 13:40
  • How to generate all the palindrome variations of "noob"?
    – Cœur
    Commented Jan 12, 2023 at 14:13
  • ‘How can I filter out a specific word from a list?’, ‘Having trouble with a tutorial for beginners on FrameworkJS’ and ‘How can I replace text on a webpage with something else in this gag browser plugin?’ would be much better titles, and I have a hard time believing someone would choose ‘noob’ of all things as an example in the first place. Banning ‘problem’ was much more, well, problematic, because that word constitutes a part of a number of terms of art (‘halting problem’, ‘three-body problem’), where it isn’t easily replaced by a synonym or omitted. This doesn’t remotely apply to ‘noob’.
    – dumbass
    Commented Jan 12, 2023 at 15:27
  • Actually, I take that back, ‘Having trouble with a tutorial for beginners on FrameworkJS’ is still an awful title, because it doesn’t explain what the trouble was.
    – dumbass
    Commented Jan 12, 2023 at 15:32
  • (i) Someone who has looked at their /etc/passwd closely might have even guessed what I meant without reading the full question. At least I didn’t title it ‘Mystery entries, what could they be for?!?!/1’. So I don’t know what kind of ‘gotcha’ it was supposed to be. (ii) Given that the ‘noob tutorial’ and ‘FrameworkJS’ don’t actually exist, this is just an unconvincing hypothetical, contrived to trigger a false positive. (iii) A good title would have mentioned at least a single specific symptom: blank page, errors in the console, whatever it may be. Spare me the ‘trouble’: it’s content-free.
    – dumbass
    Commented Jan 12, 2023 at 15:58
  • @user3840170 I think this conversation spun out of control a bit. Apologies for any offense. I take your criticism: I could have spent more time crafting better sample questions. I still stand by my points.
    – JDB
    Commented Jan 12, 2023 at 19:27
  • The fact that there are unclosed questions with any concerning attribute just indicates that they have not been edited/curated, not that the concerning attribute is by any means "ok". We see the same excuse being used for off-topic questions; "there's a tag for it tho". "this question from a decade ago isn't closed, why is mine?" 350 questions is barely a rounding error with the number of questions on SO. Commented Jan 13, 2023 at 19:27
  • @HereticMonkey - I'm confused by your comment. Are you echoing my point, or are you making a counter argument? I agree with everything you've said and I don't see how my post says anything otherwise.
    – JDB
    Commented Jan 13, 2023 at 20:33
  • I'm countering the assertion that "noob" isn't a problem because there are questions that have that content in them that aren't closed (basically the paragraph "Data suggests "noob" isn't currently a problem"). It's not a problem now, but how much of that is due to alert curators editing out the word? Are we trivializing a problem because of how much unseen work is being done? I agree that bans are a blunt instrument, but it's the tool we're given. Commented Jan 15, 2023 at 15:19
  • @HereticMonkey - I never said it isn't a problem. However, I'd argue it's a trivial problem. By my reckoning, over the past 14 years, there are only 350 questions using that word in the title that have survived rounds of editing, voting and/or closure. How many "noob" questions are perfectly fine except for that one word? I'd argue very few. Seems like a lot of work for very little reward. You could even argue that "noob" is an effective flag for a post in need of other edits. Regardless, seems like a bad precedent with no clear reason behind it. Why "noob" and not "beginner" or "student"?
    – JDB
    Commented Jan 16, 2023 at 2:45
  • Ok... actually, I kind of did say it isn't a problem... I could have said that differently.
    – JDB
    Commented Jan 16, 2023 at 2:52
  • "Banning words from titles will do little to change the underlying insecurity of the author." - very, very true, but it is a signal that they would otherwise not receive. People need to get triggers to know they're on the path of doing something ill-advised. Whether they choose to acknowledge them is not something that can be guaranteed, but at least it cannot be said that the site leaves you stumbling in the dark.
    – Gimby
    Commented Jan 17, 2023 at 14:48
  • @Gimby - I perfectly agree with that. If the proposal was something more like "show a warning" then I'd be in favor of it. That's feedback that the author can choose to use not just with their title, but the entire question content. However, outright banning a word is a bit too extreme in my opinion. Banning should be reserved for straight-up, clear-cut, widely-agreed-upon abusive language. Words that don't fall in that category should be allowed, even if it means that editing is occasionally needed.
    – JDB
    Commented Jan 17, 2023 at 15:29
23

I'm not entirely sure how the blocking mechanism works exactly, but I just wanted to add that we should be careful with "auto-blocking" noob, noobs and variations of it. In very rare cases it could actually be part of the question (e.g. involving New Out Of Box Software (noobs), noobaa, etc)

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    Because of this reason is why I would favour mickmackusa's answer. Encouraging people to edit out noise is something that needs to be done more Commented Jan 10, 2023 at 14:41
  • 1
    @WhatsThePoint Prevention is better than cure. The fewer noisy questions posted here, the fewer that need to be edited. As an asker it is ultimately your responsibility to ensure your question is as easily answerable as possible, not our responsibility as curators to panel-beat it into an answerable form.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Jan 10, 2023 at 14:50
  • 2
    @IanKemp but as NullDev as rightly pointed out, "noob" is an anacronym that shouldn't be prevented from being entered. Yes it is a fairly niche anacronym to use, but people using the anacronym correctly should not be punished Commented Jan 10, 2023 at 16:09
  • I think one way to improve titles blocking mechanism is to implement an advanced NLP ( natural language processing ) that provides a score of correctness, if you want to ban specific words, there will always be a way to get away with it, for example : noob can be altered to n0ob or nooob or noobie, also, i have a problem, which is irrelevant and can also be altered to other words like prob / problam ... ( I have actually seen these stuff around on SO ).
    – AYGTX
    Commented Jan 11, 2023 at 11:04
7

In favor. Stating that someone is a noob/beginner doesn't add anything valuable to a question. I almost always remove introductions like "I recently started..." and the likes too.

Also, someone experienced might ask a beginner question.

2
  • Otherwise, you could use the word "Beginner" itself
    – Rishon_JR
    Commented Jan 12, 2023 at 14:28
  • 1
    ‘Beginner’ is equally useless, especially in a title. Look at <stackoverflow.com/q/1687296>: it’s a pretty basic question, highly upvoted, and it contains none of that nonsense.
    – dumbass
    Commented Jan 12, 2023 at 14:53
-18

Add an AI NLP model which classifies title content as "self-deprecating", and other requirements as necessary. Notify the user via a popup:

  • "Using X does not add any extra value to the question content. You may want to consider rephrasing X or omitting X,Y."

I am surprised to see so much critique against AI/ML. FYI, it's implementable in weeks rather months and won't cost more than estimated $500/month for cloud GPU-accelerated instances deployed globally. Considering the write only traffic.

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    For now (and I hope never), Stack Overflow isn't going to be using OpenAPI. There's already regexes in place to detect this, and while they're not the greatest, I'd rather that over AI.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 11, 2023 at 18:18
  • 2
    @Makoto regex cant handle every case, thats when machine learning comes into picture. Commented Jan 11, 2023 at 18:28
  • 1
    I'd conjecture that "good enough" would be enough here. Besides, the fact that people add this is a social construct, not a technological one. I only weakly support the filter because I know that people have a need to maintain face and want to speak at liberty about their problem, knowing that to Some Expert Somewhere™ their problem is trivial or insignificant. How we block it is highly orthogonal to this discussion. That we block it is only part one of a many-part mindset shift for askers in this position.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 11, 2023 at 18:34
  • 2
    @Makoto LOL what's up with the hate towards AI? Commented Jan 12, 2023 at 10:59
  • 1
    @nikhilswami Eh, no. AI also has a certain error rate. Any automated system written today has errors. The major difference between regex and AI is that one is trivially computable, while the other would require a significant investment in AI-accelerator compute hardware to keep up with asking volumes. ML will not handle everything, and neither will regex. But one has a significantly lower resource requirement, while still being good enough or even on-par with regex. The major keyword here shouldn't be to deal with 100% of content. Even 90-95% is a significant reduction in manual labour Commented Jan 12, 2023 at 15:05
  • 1
    and that is generally the goal with automation. We're not at a point where machines can fully take the place of humans for gruntwork (unfortunately), but taking out as much as possible with as little cost as possible, and through that reducing the amount of gruntwork required by the far too few overworked and undertooled curators allows for far more efficient moderation of all content, even if the automation step doesn't actually cover everything Commented Jan 12, 2023 at 15:07
  • 2
    @WalterMonecke: Because there's no point to it in this case. It's not a broad tool to just be applied wherever; there is a suitable time and place to use it, and this is very much neither.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 12, 2023 at 16:27
  • @Makoto pretty sure any AI would perform than any regex. Commented Jan 16, 2023 at 14:45
  • @WalterMonecke: You're missing the forest for the trees. Blocking the text in the title is literally the beginning. How it's done is really not consequential. Regex is just fine for this. The second, harder part that this answerer is missing is that this social construct does have some high hurdles to it that I elaborate in an earlier comment. Don't just force AI through as a "solution" when you're not considering the actual problem.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 16, 2023 at 16:44
  • Ah sorry @Makoto I was speaking in general terms when comparing AI vs regex. I understand your point. Commented Jan 17, 2023 at 0:22
-21

I think the term 'noob' is pretty well understood as a cheery and slightly self deprecating way of admitting to be a beginner. I don't mind it.

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    noob doesn't usually belong in a title, since titles are usually reserved for info concerning the issue, not the person who has it. Commented Jan 12, 2023 at 1:55
  • 2
    On this site the information about the OP is irrelevant on questions. Whatever the OP want to share about themselves could included in their bio. Fun fact: There are a lot of users named "noob"
    – Wicket
    Commented Jan 12, 2023 at 2:23
  • 8
    Nobody searches the site for "hey guys I'm a noob how to convert a string to an integer thanks in advance", they search for "How to convert a string to an integer". The reason to not ban "noob" is that it sometimes appears in legitimate technical contexts. We don't need conversational noise in question titles. I'm afraid to look but there's probably a "thanks in advance" testing library for Ruby or something preventing us from banning that too...
    – ggorlen
    Commented Jan 12, 2023 at 6:07

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