67

Thank you to everyone who participated in Overhauling our community's closure reasons and guidance.

It appears that we have quite a few ideas about closure reasons we'd like to add as well as updating the wording for a few of the existing reasons. As mentioned in the previous post, we are currently using all 5 of our Community Specific Closure Reason slots.

In order to move forward with this process of revising our existing reasons and potentially add a new one, we first need to free up slots. I propose we retire our (2) specific off-topic closure reasons, specifically, Server Fault and Super User in favour of a more general one.

Please review some of the existing proposals:

There are more than a few different ideas about what the wording for this reason should be.

Reminder that there are 5 fields that need to be set for this new combined reason; each have a 500-character limit excluding the first which has a 100-character limit (from Catjia's answer to Should we update/clarify our help center with respect to other sites and teams?):

  1. Brief description (100 characters but should be just a few words) - this is the Bold part of the close reason that appears in the close vote UI when closers are voting to close the post.
  2. Usage guidance - this tells close voters when to use this close reason. It should clarify any edge cases and help voters feel certain they're choosing the correct reason.
  3. Post notice close description - visible to all users. This is a general note about why the question was closed. It can include links to resources that explain the site's policy. It should always start and end with the same thing "This question was closed because it is ... It is not currently accepting answers."
  4. Post owner guidance - this additional information appears in the post notice but only for the asker of the question. It should contain detailed information about how they can improve their post (if possible) and may also include links to help here on meta or in the help center.
  5. Public guidance - this additional information appears in the post notice for all other users. It is designed to help them know how to guide the asker in improving their question or inform them when the question should be reopened.

(#5 was changed in May to be shown to all users, instead of only users with the "cast close and reopen votes" privilege.)

You can review our current closure reasons with this SEDE query.

I would like to ask the community to propose options for complete guidance on our new closure reason. Then have the highest scoring answer converted into the new closure reason.

0

3 Answers 3

21

I've gone ahead and implemented this change.

The old close reasons specifically mentioning Super User and Server Fault have been deactivated, and this broader "Not about programming or software development" close reason has been added. I used the proposed guidance suggested in Henry Ecker's answer, with some very minor edits. (I'm glad I was able to help you phrase the usage guidance!)

I also moved the new close reason to the top of the list of community-specific close reasons, since that's where the previous two were. Hopefully this should ensure minimal disruption to people's workflows... :)

Please let me know if you encounter any technical issues caused by this change (or somehow find any typos in the text).


Now that this change has been implemented, y'all may also want to update the Question Close Reasons - Definitions and Guidance (proposed) guidance to account for these changes in SO's community-specific close reasons.

(The relevant answers: this one about the "general computing hardware and software" close reason that mentions Super User, and this one about the "server administration" close reason that mentions Server Fault. Whether y'all repurpose one of those existing answers or just add a new one, you may find it useful to draw on the information in those two answers in crafting the guidance for this new close reason.)

13
  • Freaking finally, why did this take so much time? AFAIK, moderators are be able to do this operation pretty easily, why couldn't them?
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 3, 2022 at 14:27
  • 2
    I don't remember off the top of my head whether mods can deactivate close reasons; I know they can "add" new close reasons, but a second person needs to approve the reason before it can go live. (I know mods can't edit existing close reasons that are active; editing a close reason also retroactively affects all posts it's currently used on, so CMs rarely do so in the case of any fundamental change to it.) In this case, SO was already at the limit of 5 active close reasons (before this change), so a new close reason couldn't be added without first deactivating the existing reasons.
    – V2Blast Staff
    Commented Aug 3, 2022 at 14:42
  • "I don't remember off the top of my head whether mods can deactivate close reasons", they can deactivate them. What they can't do is modifying them. Also, if they couldn't manage the close reasons, means that they are basically waiting around until a CM push a button? They already can doctor the post history to remove sensitive data, why couldn't they do this that has less stakes?
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 3, 2022 at 15:43
  • 3
    @Braiam This [discussion] was created much less that a year ago. Considering the age of many [feature-request]s on this site, why are you so shocked about the fact that this one (again, just a [discussion]) took ~2.5 months? Because it's so "easy" to do? Crikey, give 'em a break. Commented Aug 3, 2022 at 18:44
  • 4
    @HereticMonkey: In particular, the request was only escalated to the CMs on July 7, which is when a site mod added the [status-review] tag to do so.
    – V2Blast Staff
    Commented Aug 3, 2022 at 18:48
  • @HereticMonkey It seems that you all are missing some "context". Moderator team decides that instead of solving the problem now, since they can, they should wait for a CM. This discussion isn't new for SE, either since, and the question has plenty of examples ready. So, again, which was the blocker for this to take so long, and why CM's didn't tell the moderator team that they should do so themselves? What the heck happened!?
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 3, 2022 at 19:28
  • Is this a case of "trying to be perfect instead of good" kind of behavior? That's unattainable at the size of SO, and if the moderator team and CM's decides to have that as the default policy, we are in a world of trouble. Things need to move faster and the CM's team should encourage the moderator team to use their tooling often, instead of waiting for them.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 3, 2022 at 19:31
  • 8
    At least it happened. We've had these close reasons for years, some logistical delay because employees have to get involved happens, and is negligible in the grand scheme of things. Assume some good faith here. SE has an enormous amount of overhead, and while that's a problem, it's not something we can do anything about, it's not the CM's fault, and it's not worth badgering a CM for when we at least got something we wanted. Take the win and move on to whatever battle is next instead of dying on the hill of "we got it but it was 2 slow and could've been done faster" Commented Aug 3, 2022 at 20:34
  • @ZoestandswithUkraine "negligible in the grand scheme of things" something that has been asked since years ago, and you say it's negligible?? Maybe you need to touch grass and be nearer to the community that you are supposed to serve.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 1:42
  • 6
    @Braiam And how exactly is your approach of "CMs are bad for making a positive change because they were too slow by my personal standard" in any way constructive for the community? Things take time and that's unavoidable. The alternative is for CMs to do nothing, would you prefer that? I wouldn't, and I'm solidly of the position that it's better late than never. That said, saying years is a stretch. This proposal gained traction and got completed in a couple months. That's far better than average. We're still waiting for plagiarism tooling, for instance Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 6:42
  • 6
    But hey, if you feel your time is best spent fighting CMs over a change you wanted and that the CMs came through with rather than focusing on the next thing of significance (whatever that may be for you), be my guest. Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 6:43
  • @ZoestandswithUkraine I want to understand what happened so it doesn't happen again with the change I want. For me the objective and the process to achieve it is equally important. Also, this is not the change I want. What I wanted is better.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 16:34
  • 4
    This was a substantial enough change to the existing close reasons that it didn't make sense to retroactively overwrite all posts closed with either of those reasons with this text. At the mods' request, I did partly edit those close reasons to no longer directly recommend asking on SU/SF, but I don't think it would have made sense here to totally replace the previous wording with this wording on all posts previously closed with those two close reasons.
    – V2Blast Staff
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 16:45
106

Personally, as much as I appreciate the idea of giving as detailed feedback as possible, I think giving lists of options is not the correct approach as:

  • any list will eventually go out of date as new sites are added (or removed) from the network
  • we are limited to 500-characters and standard(ish) Markdown rules

For this reason, I'd prefer to have a general "not about programming or development" closure reason, and provide the general list of sites rather than trying to enumerate every possible location for every type of question. I've instead chosen to link to on-topic which already covers where to ask many types of questions. This practice is also consistent with our existing closure reasons and the closure reasons of many other communities network wide.

This is my proposal:

Field (Rendered) Markdown Markdown Length
Brief Description Not about programming or software development 45
Usage guidance Use this close reason if the question is not about a specific programming problem, a software algorithm, or software tools primarily used by programmers. Do not use this close reason for questions that are on-topic for $SiteName, even if it would also be on-topic on another Stack Exchange site. Questions about $SiteName itself should be migrated to Meta $SiteName instead. 449
Post notice close description Closed. This question is not about programming or software development. It is not currently accepting answers. 140
Post owner guidance This question does not appear to be about a specific programming problem, a software algorithm, or software tools primarily used by programmers. You can edit the question so it’s on-topic or see if it can be answered on another Stack Exchange site, but be sure to read the on-topic page for the site you choose before posting. 397
Public user guidance This question does not appear to be about a specific programming problem, a software algorithm, or software tools primarily used by programmers. If you believe the question is on-topic on another Stack Exchange site you can leave a comment to explain where the question may be able to be answered. 350

As I was working on this, I realised it was difficult for me to conceptualise what these reasons would feel like in situ, so I have created a mock closure dialogue and some mock close banners.

The close dialogue would look something like:
Close Dialogue with new closure reasons and no SF or SU close reasons

Post Owners would see the following message:
Post owner guidance

Privileged Users would see the following:
Privileged user guidance

Anonymous Users and users with less than 3000 reputation would see the following:
Every user guidance


This should be able to support the prior closure reasons as it represents the essence of why "general computing hardware and software" and "professional server or networking-related infrastructure administration" are off-topic.

It should also cover many of the custom close reasons currently being used. For Example:

Category Approx # of Variants1 Approx # of posts (last 30 days)1
ML/DL/AI theory and/or methodology ~8 ~230
Not about Programming as defined in [help] ~34 ~206
Webmasters ~4 ~47
Mathematics ~1 ~3
DataScience ~1 ~3

1 Values were aggregated with the highly accurate and extremely technical method of "by hand" from question close stats. Custom closure reasons are considered distinct unless they match spelling and punctuation exactly so finding all variants and their associated amounts is non-trivial.


I would like to acknowledge that these reasons are the derived from many users network wide. My hope was to create reasons with guidance and links that were consistent with our existing reasons, help center, and MSO. I also pulled the current community-specific closure reasons for every community on the Stack Exchange network to see how they handle off-topic questions on their relative sites. My hope is not that this guidance is revolutionary or groundbreaking, but rather something that is familiar and can be easily adopted by our community.

A special thanks to Oleg Valter and Ryan M for their assistance in getting this proposal into somewhat reasonable form, as well as everyone who participated in the initial close reasons and guidance project and in the Overhauling our community's closure reasons and guidance discussion.

49
  • 35
    I have some problems with the "commonly used by programmers", the old "primarily used by programmers" better covers it, because otherwise you get into those nice arguments like "as a developer, I commonly use a computer, so all computer questions are on-topic". Commented May 16, 2022 at 9:57
  • 2
    It wasn't a problem before if you consider that it's the combination of two statement
    – Braiam
    Commented May 16, 2022 at 13:55
  • 7
    One word isn't going to make a difference. We did this sort of word splitting for ages on Software Engineering; the only place where wording made a material difference in the quality of the questions asked was when the site changed its name from Programmers to Software Engineering. Commented May 16, 2022 at 17:54
  • 8
    A minor quibble, but I would limit the SE list to just technology sites. Unless you think Interpersonal Skills would be helpful in diagnosing if my HDD is dead
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented May 16, 2022 at 19:22
  • 8
    @Machavity limiting to just technology would exclude: Cross Validated, Mathematics, Computer Science, Artificial Intelligence, Theoretical Computer Science (Science) which we get a fair amount of questions for so much so that we have a migration path for Cross Validated. It would also exclude Law (Life & Arts) and Open Source (Professional) which while less common are also potential site targets.
    – Henry Ecker Mod
    Commented May 16, 2022 at 19:25
  • 8
    @HenryEcker Fair enough, but that raises a much larger issue. So, I've just asked my dead HDD question on SO and gotten closed. I'm plucky so I click into the list. How do I pick a better site to ask about it on? That list is full of vague names ("Super User" is clever but does not describe that the site is about hardware/OS questions). FWIW, the SU closure reason (flawed as it is) at least suggests where to start.
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented May 16, 2022 at 19:28
  • 3
    I certainly agree with that @Machavity The on-topic page is a much more informative than just the sites list. I was trying to limit the number of incorrect referrals, but I agree that this certainly provides much less direct feedback about where to ask. I don't know what would be better: too narrow that it excludes viable options or too broad that it's hard to determine where to post. Some sites link to specific meta posts. I couldn't find a canonical "Where to ask off-topic questions instead of Stack Overflow" on MSO as I did on some other sites.
    – Henry Ecker Mod
    Commented May 16, 2022 at 19:32
  • 11
    IMHO, really need to include that all-important "... and unique to software development" qualifier. Lots of tools are commonly used by programmers, but as @Braiam mentioned, it's the combination of those two statements that determines whether it is on-topic. Commented May 16, 2022 at 20:30
  • 6
    May I suggest linking to the FAQ on meta for which site to choose instead of some flavor of stackexchange.com/sites?
    – pppery
    Commented May 17, 2022 at 2:45
  • 4
    It's a community wiki post -- feel free to edit it to add anything you feel is missing.
    – pppery
    Commented May 17, 2022 at 2:53
  • 2
    I think those types of questions should be closed as "primarily opinion-based", @Karl, not as [the equivalent of] "blatantly off-topic". Ideally, close reasons will be as descriptive as possible to give actionable and educational advice.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 21, 2022 at 4:55
  • 2
    The "usage guidance" isn't usage guidance. This text should be clear instructions to readers regarding when to use the close reason - and when to not use it. Right now you're just creating a long-form version of the close reason name. Please use the guidance in the question for how to frame these. If there are any occasions when this close reason shouldn't be used, please mention them, too.
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Jun 2, 2022 at 13:17
  • 2
    Additionally, the "privileged user guidance" (which is technically now visible by everyone) should indicate how a reader can improve the question (e.g. "If you can improve the question such that it is on topic here, consider editing it.") You do this in the question owner section but not in the privileged user section.
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Jun 2, 2022 at 13:20
  • 2
    WRT the privileged user guidance section, it was felt in the initial drafts that most questions closed with this reason cannot be improved by other users than the author. If there is a programmatic aspect to a networking administration question, but this is not contained in the question already, an edit to make an off-topic question about programming would conflict with our current editing guidelines (as an example). For this reason editing was not included in the privileged guidance, and instead it encourages users to comment to help the author figure out where to ask instead.
    – Henry Ecker Mod
    Commented Jun 2, 2022 at 13:35
  • 2
    @HenryEcker That's fine - y'all are the experts here. I completely understand that some close reasons are used on questions that are generally never going to be in scope. Feel free to ping me if you want help with the usage guidance. :)
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Jun 2, 2022 at 13:42
-7

This is my proposal which is exactly the same as Henry except that it is less ambiguous, more sober and more dry cut, trying to do less things at once:

Field (Rendered) Markdown Markdown Length*
Brief Description Not a practical, answerable problem unique to software development 66
Usage guidance This question does not appear to be about a specific programming problem, a software algorithm, or software tools primarily used by programmers in a context unique to software development. 270
Post notice close description Closed. This question is not a practical, answerable problem unique to software development. It is not currently accepting answers. 161
Post owner guidance This question does not appear to be about a specific programming problem, a software algorithm, or software tools commonly used by programmers in a context unique to software development. You can edit the question so it’s on-topic. 270
Privileged user guidance This question does not appear to be about a specific programming problem, a software algorithm, or software tools primarly used by programmers in a context unique to software development. 206
25
  • Actually, yes, the removal of the "may be on topic..." parts have been workshoped yesterday and looked upon favourably. Henry? Not sure about the "context", though. Can you give an example of a tool used by programmers not in the prpgrammkng context?
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 17, 2022 at 18:36
  • 1
    @OlegValteriswithUkraine Computers? Drills? Coffee makers?
    – Braiam
    Commented May 17, 2022 at 18:37
  • I think Oleg's question is about "software tools" (as written) not used in a programming context @Braiam
    – Henry Ecker Mod
    Commented May 17, 2022 at 18:38
  • I object to any of those being "tools primarily used by programmers", @Braiam :) Unless that's a joke, that is.
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 17, 2022 at 18:38
  • @HenryEcker Word? <insert here favorite web browser>? Windows? Linux?
    – Braiam
    Commented May 17, 2022 at 18:39
  • And same for the list of software below - unless, again, this is a joke, I do not see how OS or browser is a "tool primarily used by programmers" (in fact, where have you seen a programmer using MS Word??).
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 17, 2022 at 18:40
  • 5
    @OlegValteriswithUkraine sadly, now programmers believe that anything they use is "primarily" used by them. So, lets make sure that it's actually when they are actively programming and those are commonly used by them. It's the same double conditional that we use when we say that you can ask an on-topic but unclear question. Now the topic is restricted by two conditions.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 17, 2022 at 18:41
  • 1
    @KevinB "in a context unique to software development"? Are you sure? It removes generic Word, Excel, Chrome questions while still allowing VBA's, JS/HTML/CSS questions.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 17, 2022 at 18:43
  • 2
    While I am aware that the /allsites list is overly broad, and I acknowledge I have not yet found a better option. I strongly disagree with only telling the post author to edit their question. Most of the questions closed with this reason will probably not be abled to be salvaged through editing.
    – Henry Ecker Mod
    Commented May 17, 2022 at 18:51
  • 5
    @OlegValteriswithUkraine "Can you give an example of a tool used by programmers not in the prpgrammkng context?" windows-subsystem-for-linux questions very often are not programming related. WSL is commonly used by programmers, but not exclusively, and questions about WSL networking, configuring colors, and many others are not on-topic. The same could be said for most any shell (PowerShell, Bash, etc.) -- There are script related (and other) questions that would be on-topic, but general usage questions would not be. Commented May 17, 2022 at 22:00
  • 2
    @OlegValteriswithUkraine I often put in a close-comment that says something like: "Keep in mind that questions on Stack Overflow should be about "specific coding, algorithm, or language problems" (i.e. "unique to software development"). Non-programming WSL questions are usually better suited for one of the sister sites here such as Super User, Unix & Linux, or (if the question is Ubuntu-specific) Ask Ubuntu. This one looks like a good target for Super User." (etc.) Commented May 17, 2022 at 22:03
  • 2
    @Braiam's proposed close text would go a long way towards explaining that on its own. Commented May 17, 2022 at 22:04
  • 1
    What do people actually object to in this proposal, to merit the downvotes? Commented May 28, 2022 at 1:53
  • 1
    @KarlKnechtel Downvotes on the meta site often mean that people like another post better. Commented May 29, 2022 at 1:33
  • 3
    @StephenOstermiller I understand that, but I would really like to hear the reasoning of those people! Even knowing that they aren't obligated, I'm extending the invitation. Commented Jun 1, 2022 at 2:47

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .