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The Help Center states under What topics can I ask about here?:

enter image description here

The Close Reasons states under Off-topic because...:

enter image description here

Notice different words are used. The first uses primarily used for programming, and the second uses commonly used by programmers. Primarily used for programming is a stronger criterion than commonly used by programmers.

As an example of the potential confusion, consider Emacs or Vi questions:

  • Under primarily…, many Emacs and Vi questions are off-topic. On-topic questions would include how to compile from sources, how to compile through the user interface, etc. The thrust of the question must be directly related to programming and development.

  • Under commonly…, nearly all Emacs and Vi questions are on-topic, including how to install through a package manager, how to copy/paste, how to save a file, how to search and replace, etc. That's because it's a common tool and many Unix and Linux programmers use it.

The disconnect causes a fair amount of confusion for users and bickering among site members. The user confusion detracts from the user experience. Stack Overflow members can be a tough crowd at times, and new users deserve good documentation to help avoid bad experiences.

I also realize there is not a 1-to-1 correspondence between Help Center on-topic and off-topic bullets and Close Reasons. However, I believe there is strong affinity for this particular case, and I would not be surprised if they are the same general case with wording that diverged over time.

Please pick one of them and use it consistently. That is, use the primarily used for programming wording on both pages, or use commonly used by programmers on both pages. Please don't mix and match them.

(I am purposefully avoiding the debate on which one should be used. I would like the site to pick one so policy is clearly established and I know which criteria to apply.)


Here's the one controlling document I can find related to site governance. It is part of The Tour and it establishes the purpose of the site:

enter image description here

Based on site governance, the site appears to only be authorized for questions directly related to programming and development.

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  • 5
    "Under primarily..." many Emacs and Vi questions are off-topic" - that doesn't seem true to me. I'd expect that 95% of Emacs and Vi usage is for programming.
    – Mark Amery
    Oct 5, 2017 at 23:21
  • 15
    Notwithstanding that Vi and Emacs are (IMO) poor examples, I agree that the "software tools commonly used by programmers" standard, interpreted literally, is patently silly, since it encompasses all popular software that exists regardless of relevance to programming. Under a literal interpretation of that standard, a question about how to install Steam or remove red eye in Photoshop would be on-topic here.
    – Mark Amery
    Oct 5, 2017 at 23:28
  • 19
    This is why the last constrain is important: it's not "primarily used for programming" or "commonly used by programmers", it's "commonly used by programmers" and "a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development". The close vote reason tried to encompass both statement into a single one, which is the reason for the stronger wording.
    – Braiam
    Oct 5, 2017 at 23:43
  • 4
    @Braiam - Don't get me started on parsing that... Is it intended to be parsed as (A || B || C) && D or A || B || (C && D), where a letter is a bullet point in the list. I've thought about asking about it in the past, but decided it was not worth the endless debates.
    – jww
    Oct 5, 2017 at 23:46
  • 5
    @jww I think it must be (A || B || C) && D given that A, B, and C are separated by commas whereas D is separated by a semi-colon. But yikes, that's horrible formatting; I completely missed there was an 'and' in there until Braiam pointed it out.
    – Mark Amery
    Oct 6, 2017 at 0:15
  • Indeed @Mark, it's intended to be parsed that way. It was meant to while encompassing most of the questions programmers have, yet not encompass all questions not inherent to programming.
    – Braiam
    Oct 6, 2017 at 0:18
  • 5
    @Braiam How appropriate, how very meta. A discussion on how to parse a statement about what Stack Overflow is for. :-) Oct 6, 2017 at 7:56
  • 2
    @Braiam You've argued in the past this makes something as fundamental as command line usage/scripting off topic here, which is completely against community norms. bash and PowerShell are important technologies for programmers, and it's nigh impossible to divide "non-programming" in these tools from programming. So it isn't even that simple.
    – jpmc26
    Oct 8, 2017 at 6:50
  • @jpmc26 you've argued that it;s "community norms" when it isn't. Do not conflate both. "Community norms" are as fluid as the people that enforce them. And if people that enforce them believe that any command line tool is not automagically on topic, I bless them.
    – Braiam
    Oct 8, 2017 at 12:57
  • 1
    @Braiam If it wasn't a community norm, these questions would be closed regularly. So yes, it is. Also, it's counterproductive when people try to turn on-topicness into a religion instead of realizing that programmers are a good set of people to have answer these questions.
    – jpmc26
    Oct 8, 2017 at 18:11
  • @jpmc26 "these questions would be closed regularly", what makes you think they are not? Actually, what makes you think that whatever you consider a "community norm" is actually enforced in all scenarios? Do you not know about the problem with the close queue and that we don't have enough users closing questions? Basically, the "community norm" that you perceive is just the users that has enough critical mass to be effective closing questions.
    – Braiam
    Oct 8, 2017 at 19:54
  • 2
    @Braiam Have some data: PowerShell, bash, and cmd questions closure, Total question closure. There's not a vast difference in closure rates with these tags vs. total questions. Also, glance through the first page of bash questions and tell me those aren't questions programmers are qualified to answer.
    – jpmc26
    Oct 8, 2017 at 20:44
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    @jpmc26 sigh, yeah, popularity wins every time, why do you think I'm so tired of this absurd "rules" everywhere? BTW, that's not the first page of bash question, this is the first page of bash questions and survivorship bias is a thing. At last, programmers can answer too how to tie a shoe, that doesn't mean that we should accept shoe tying questions. The constrain is "unique to software development", don't include some convenient argument!
    – Braiam
    Oct 8, 2017 at 21:19
  • 1
    @Braiam "Unique" has many definitions. That phrase is not a mathematical proposition; it's a vague generality (as evidenced by the usage of different phrases across the site). On your link, the first 5 questions (at the moment) include two questions about scripting an environment change, a question about a language's runtime process hanging, a question about looping and managing variables asychronously, a question about a syntax error. All sounds like programming to me. Some might be more in the scripting a build or deployment side of things, but that's definitely still software development.
    – jpmc26
    Oct 8, 2017 at 21:24
  • 1
    @Braiam Maybe you should try your own advice. There are 5 adjective definitions in the first entry there. Besides that, words are often used with an intended meaning that only loosely complies with the technical definition. Really recommend you stop trying to argue language technicalities. And I dunno why you think I'm switching topics. I've been discussing the issue of "on topic" vs. "off topic" this entire time. (Well, I've also been trying to dissuade you from interpreting site wording in a strict, wooden sense, but that's closely related, too.)
    – jpmc26
    Oct 8, 2017 at 22:05

3 Answers 3

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Slightly off-topic answer, but that help center text has always bothered me, and I can't express this in a comment. It might work better if the text was flipped on its back in my opinion:

but if your question generally covers a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development, such as:

  • a specific programming problem
  • a software algorithm
  • about software tools commonly used by programmers

then yada yada yada.

See it as a fail-fast type of change, you don't really even need to bother looking at the bullet list if your question doesn't pass the initial condition.

I'm not an expert writer of course, so I may be completely wrong. This just has a more natural flow to me personally.

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  • 6
    But you deleted the ", or" from each line - I read this as (A && (B && C && D)) now. Assuming we put those back (and add "about" after "is"?), I like this formulation though.
    – Blorgbeard
    Oct 6, 2017 at 20:26
  • 3
    How about changing this to "…but if your question generally covers a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development, and is at least one of the following: ● a specific programming problem, or ● a software algorithm, or ● about software tools commonly used by programmers, then …"
    – Makyen Mod
    Oct 7, 2017 at 4:37
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    The bullet points are really just examples of the types of questions that meet the guidelines in the first sentence. The initial condition is the only one that really matters. So, we could just say "for example:". Oct 7, 2017 at 12:08
  • 2
    @CodyGray: Or we could just drop the examples . . .
    – ruakh
    Oct 7, 2017 at 21:47
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    I think the examples are helpful, @ruakh. If they weren't there, people might miss the fact that software algorithms and programming software are on-topic. Heck, lots of people miss that even when they are there! Oct 8, 2017 at 5:24
  • 2
    Change "unique." That causes undue bickering, too.
    – jpmc26
    Oct 8, 2017 at 6:31
  • I would agree with this if we could keep the "yada yada".
    – Braiam
    Oct 8, 2017 at 19:55
  • 2
    change the "and is" to "such as" Oct 9, 2017 at 0:05
  • @SteveBennettㄹ that would actually make any "software tools commonly used by programmers" on topic. That's not what SO is. Browsers are software tools commonly used by programmers, but it's also commonly used by everyone. We want questions which only software developers would have in a very narrow software developing context. Basically, prevent that "programming on a boat" be on topic.
    – Braiam
    Oct 9, 2017 at 0:56
  • 1
    I don't think your "we" is representative of a very large group. I in fact do not want what you insist "we" want. I think many of your interpretations of how the site should and does work are rather outlandish.
    – user4639281
    Oct 9, 2017 at 1:18
  • @Braiam No, because it's already restricted under "...unique to software development". And change the bullet point examples if they're incorrect. Oct 9, 2017 at 1:22
  • @SteveBennettㄹ it would basically make the first constrain useless, since people would read that all "tools commonly used by programmers" also are "unique to software development". Language is not easy, it needs to be lawyered carefully to convey the exact meaning we want: simple set of constrains that prevent the worst while guiding towards the stuff that we want.
    – Braiam
    Oct 9, 2017 at 4:23
  • 1
    @Braiam "Language is not easy, it needs to be lawyered carefully to convey the exact meaning we want..." Lack of ambiguity is not compatible with simple and short, unless you're doing actual (non-statistics) math. SO's help docs are not legal documents. Trying to get them to that level of detail is counterproductive, as most users would just ignore them completely, resulting in even more off-topic posts. Most people would rather deal with some ambiguity than with the kind of unreadable crap our legislatures spit out (which still has ambiguities).
    – jpmc26
    Oct 9, 2017 at 4:47
  • @Blorgbeard I removed the or's because in this setup I deemed them superfluous, a bullet list to me is a list of individual options. In the old setup they were necessary because confusingly an "and" option was put in the list as well.
    – Gimby
    Oct 9, 2017 at 8:46
  • @SteveBennettㄹ "Change the and is to such as" - really good suggestion that.
    – Gimby
    Oct 9, 2017 at 8:52
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TL;DR: Language is hard. The inconsistent phrasing is a reflection of the fact these phrases were never intended to be strict absolutes; your lack of clarity is a feature, not a bug. The help will never be able to give you a deterministic algorithm for classifying questions as on-topic or not. Don't worry about it if you can't offer better phrasing. Be lenient when the topic is border line.


The real point here is that the question should be one software developers are qualified to answer and have a decent likelihood of encountering as a part of their software development efforts. Realizing this requires a little reading between the lines, but it's not that hard to conclude from the text we do have. That said, all of our current wording suffers from problems:

  • "Unique" wrongly suggests the question must be one only software developers can answer. This is simply not the case. A system admin might well be able to explain how to install a Python package, but so can a software developer (and this is a common task a software developer must perform). (I'd argue that the usage in the help is intended to be a different definition of "unique" than this bullet point suggests, but I can see how someone might get confused by it.)
  • "Primarily used for programming" leads into all sorts of stupid questions like whether bash and PowerShell are primarily used by programmers or someone else and what qualifies as "programming." Heck, one might argue Python and Perl are regularly used by non-programmers.
  • "commonly used by programmers" probably opens the door for questions that would be better asked elsewhere, like how to configure your computer to connect to the wireless network.

It's only once you start to consider what these phrases have in common and in what ways they differ that you start to get a picture of what's intended. The fundamental problem is in expressing the definition of what qualifies as "software development" and what doesn't, especially in some brief help text or close reason. Trying to categorize things this way is necessarily somewhat subjective and difficult to codify. You are never going to be able to specify an algorithm that gives you a guaranteed correct "true" or "false" result for every possible question. At some point, worrying about this phrasing just becomes a matter of bike-shedding (and for a few people, pedantry).

Knowledgeable software developers know what does and doesn't fall under the normal purview of "software development." Yes, this is somewhat circular. A person who doesn't have much knowledge about software development might be confused about what falls under it and what doesn't. However, notice that the help explicitly states the site is primarily for people who have some clue what in the heck software development is, not every random schmoe who has a question about what his friend's second cousin is working on: "Stack Overflow is for professional and enthusiast programmers." So the site is already setting up the expectation that you really shouldn't be coming in completely blind. (Yes, some users ask in spite of not falling into that category. Most of those questions end up being bad questions and get closed or downvoted.)

The usage of different phrases across the site actually provides one small benefit: it indicates that you should not take these phrases as precise wordings that allow for binary classifications. If you have a more clear alternative that also leaves this kind of wiggle room and can fit everywhere, share it, but as evidenced by the lack of a suggestion in the question, this isn't so easy to come up with. And that's fine. It's hard to come up with good wording here.

My advice is to understand the purpose of the site and evaluate your voting habits in light of that. Just be lenient if you think something is border line (e.g., a bash question about creating directories) when voting to close. I promise nothing bad will happen if there's a cross site duplicate on Super User. If you don't know enough about the technologies involved to make a distinction, leave the voting for those who do.

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  • 2
    "The real point here is that the question should be one software developers are qualified to answer" again, developers are qualified to answer many questions the same as any other human beings, that doesn't make them on topic. Only when you need a software developer to answer a question that can't be answered by anyone else, you have half of a question for SO. Why nobody notice that SO spawned 20 other sites with so many overlapping users?
    – Braiam
    Oct 8, 2017 at 21:58
  • 1
    @Braiam I explicitly countered your claims in the answer. Counter question: why haven't you realized that everyone has already noticed that and that many have deemed it unproblematic? Are you familiar with how much overlap there is between Science Fiction & Fantasy and Movies & TV?
    – jpmc26
    Oct 8, 2017 at 22:06
  • 1
    Actually, most people didn't notice that. You may have noticed, but not everyone that uses SE. If they did, then site-recommendation wouldn't exist, nor off topic close reasons (here using the common definition of off topic, not the SE one), nor migration.
    – Braiam
    Oct 9, 2017 at 0:54
1

I completely agree with this change - we should replace the word "commonly" with "primarily." This is especially the case given that the first three criteria in the list are "or" conditions, and the last one is an "and" condition, so this section of the document is vague and ambiguous. It's really tempting for even relatively experienced users to read this and think that any software package that programmers use a lot is on-topic here, which isn't true. For example, I recently read a Meta post, which I will not link to to avoid the Meta Meta effect, that made this exact error and argued that a post which was closed for being general computing was actually on-topic based on that sentence; the post in question even had a net score of 49 last time I checked (including 52 upvotes), so some other users may have felt the same way.

Ideally, the last sentence should be moved out of the list and made more prominent to indicate that that's true of all questions, and the word "commonly" should be changed to "primarily". Every question on Stack Overflow should be practical, answerable, and unique to software development.

Here's an example of how I think that the start of the on-topic guide should be phrased:

Stack Overflow is for professional and enthusiast programmers, or anyone who writes code because they love it. Questions on this site should be about a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development. The best Stack Overflow questions generally have a bit of source code in them, but if your question generally covers…

  • a specific programming problem, or
  • a software algorithm, or
  • software tools primarily used by programmers

…then you’re in the right place to ask your question!

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