63

I feel there has been a recent rise in people closing questions they don't like using the "off topic" closure reason. I saw an example today where the closure reason was:

This question appears to be off-topic because this isn't a code-writing service (emphasis mine)

It received four other votes and the question is now closed. In my opinion, the question was on-topic. It merely irritated people because it asked for a solution with no evidence of prior effort. That deserves down-votes, but not closure (at least according to the current rules).

I'm increasingly seeing questions being closed in this manner. "This question appears to be off-topic because <insert pet hate here>". Brad has posted a link to a SEDE query that shows recent off-topic closure reasons. Here's some of the recent entries:

Am I alone in spotting this trend? I'm wondering if there is anything we can do to discourage this. Such questions are often worthy of closing, but we should be using normal (and polite) close reasons.

42
  • 19
    You are not alone in spotting this trend, I've seen it. Unfortunately, some people who have the privileges to vote to close use the other off-topic message for these snarky messages instead of using the standard close reason. I personally don't like these messages and if I see them, I'll delete them. Most of the time, these snarky messages could fit in a standard close reason.
    – Taryn Mod
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 12:53
  • 79
    @bluefeet Perhaps it's a sign that we are missing some closure reasons? Certainly the "lack of effort" issue is hotly contested - perhaps the "off topic" reason is where people vent those feelings. Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 12:56
  • 30
    Lack of effort = very easily could fit into the too broad category. Too broad meaning, we aren't going to code everything for ya!
    – Taryn Mod
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 12:57
  • 10
    "The question was on-topic" does not say much about it. Was it a good question? Would it have been useful to future visitors? If not, why do you care that it was closed? Most questions I see with such a close reason are far from useful, and I don't think I've ever seen a genuinely good question closed in this way.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 12:58
  • 11
    If the custom option is removed, people will use something else. I for one will VTC "plzsendthecodes" questions and homework dumps, as well as downvote them. Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 13:02
  • 64
    The rules and close reasons have changed so many times that people got confused and/or stopped caring. Combine that with low overall question quality, and you have a situation where people just vote to close for whatever reason, regeardless of if it fits by the letter or not. And "living by the rules" would be nice if the rules themselves were consistent. So long as Shog recommends using "unclear" as a catch-all for questions where IMO "unclear" certainly does not apply to the problem statement of OP, this is not the case and only creates more confusion.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 13:06
  • 21
    @bluefeet You're still in the stage of moderation where you have your feelings intact. My soul has been removed and replaced with a monkey that hits the decline button.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 13:30
  • 9
    @GeorgeStocker I guess I need to toughen up. But it's hard when you are a booby
    – Taryn Mod
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 13:33
  • 11
    Questions that are nothing but a problem description, or a set of inputs and expected outputs, are the very definition of "Too Broad", IMO. I get the feeling that people are done with trying to understand what questions get closed for which reasons though.
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 14:20
  • 26
    TPTB have repeatedly taken away close reasons that were more appropriate. As I recall there was once actually a close reason for "fails to demonstrate effort", or something like that, and another one that I paraphrased as "too stupid to live". And there were others. The close reasons keep getting emasculated, while the questions keep getting dumber.
    – Hot Licks
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 15:47
  • 9
    What's wrong with closing crappy questions with custom reasons? Last I checked, you could close almost anything as "unclear what you're asking" or "too broad." The custom reason here is telling the asker what's actually wrong with the question and how a simple rephrasing won't fix it.
    – tmyklebu
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 15:49
  • 4
    @HotLicks I think you mean "Lacks minimal understanding", and there's a feature-request to bring it back. It seems SE felt it was used too eagerly. Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 15:55
  • 10
    The problem is that TPTB want to avoid all possible hurt feelings by eliminating any "negative" connotation to the closing code. This simply isn't possible. You either have meaningful closing codes and cause a few people to (usually deservedly) run off with their tails between their legs, or you have anarchy and pure noise.
    – Hot Licks
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 17:20
  • 7
    I've said this over and over again, @Hot... but I'll say it again: by and large, people don't leave when you insult them; they double their resolve to annoy you further. The single best way to drive someone away is to ignore them, to give them no response whatsoever. Here's some reading for you...
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 19:32
  • 12
    Nevertheless I agree with @HotLicks to this extent: the reason we (the closers) give the reasons we do is that those are the reasons we have available to choose from. Someone took away our blue crayons so all our skies are green. I don't have a big problem with this but it does answer the OP's question.
    – matt
    Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 13:31

6 Answers 6

39

George wanted evidence, so I invite you to run this Data Explorer query (courtesy of Undo):

https://data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/200648/custom-close-comments

Take a read down that list. At a glance, I can see a number of very questionable "off topic" close reasons.

From personal experience, I can say that I've seen a lot of very rude and abusive uses of custom close reasons, and am getting a little tired of how certain people are using this to dismiss questions they don't like. I've had to remove a large number of these after they were flagged, and have had conversations with some of the worst offenders.

I am concerned that this is becoming a problem, and that close vote queue reviewers are just rubber-stamping these (thus the upvotes) rather than taking the time to think if they actually apply. Personally, I'd support removing the ability for close queue reviewers to approve such votes, and instead only allow standard close vote types or custom-written off topic votes from the close vote queue.

30
  • 1
    +1 Thank you for the link. I was painfully gathering suggestions from Google (which is challenging, since it insists on showing meta posts complaining about the process). Your last sentence doesn't quite make sense to me - are you missing a word or two there? Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 14:14
  • 11
    @Duncan - I guess what I was trying to say is that right now, people in the close vote queue can choose to approve any of the current close votes on the question, including custom off-topic ones. Since many reviewers tend to take the path of least resistance, they just approve one of the existing close reasons, even if it is inappropriate. I'd suggest removing custom off-topic reasons from the list of ones that can be approved directly from the queue, and force reviewers to type their own custom reason or to use one of the existing close reasons.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 14:17
  • 4
    @vba4all - No, this is about preventing abusive close reasons like "This question appears to be off-topic because it is about reading comprehension." or "This question appears to be off-topic because OP clearly has no clue how to handle/manipulate and array", as just two examples. I believe in stopping rudeness like this.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 14:27
  • 10
    but SE is moderated by the community. If the community is using custom close reasons to close questions because no other reason is suitable why take away that from the people who moderate this site? Soon there will be only 2 close reasons left SPAM and DUPLICATE...
    – user2140173
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 14:27
  • 2
    still, 5 people voted to close... taking that away is like cutting down the number of people who somehow still cared[gave their votes] by 5...Sorry I don't make a great babysitter
    – user2140173
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 14:30
  • 23
    @vba4all - It is never appropriate to treat someone impolitely here, even if they are asking terrible questions and wasting our time. There are real people on the other ends of those questions, and I believe that all people deserve to be treated with respect here. You don't believe something is of high quality, downvote. If the question is not appropriate, use a standard close vote reason. If it is an exceptional circumstance for something completely off topic, leave a polite and to the point custom off topic vote. Insults never help anyone.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 14:37
  • 5
    This question appears to be off-topic because it is about it being a Friday and the OP wants someone else to do their homework for them so they can go out partying. I like to party too you know. Would be more appropriate as 'Unclear what you're asking'?
    – Cape Code
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 14:59
  • 25
    @BradLarson - If you want to eliminate rude closing reasons then restore some of the deleted closing reasons for these causes.
    – Hot Licks
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 15:49
  • 6
    No, @HotLicks. Being rude is never ok, but if the choice is between the occasional rude closer and questions that are well-answered and useful to others being closed due to overly-broad close reasons... I would take the former any day. The real solution here is a third system, one that gets rid of questions that no one cares about without the insane overhead and unfortunate side-effects, which is long overdue and... something we're working on.
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 17:54
  • 8
    There should be a close reason that sounds: You can learn programming only by figuring out the most simplest errors on your own. Especially in your first years of getting a hacker you'll often encounter situations that seem unsolvable by you. But don't give up! that's **your** mission . This, I assume is what the most people think when closing such questions. They think this, because they learned programming that way, and this is the only way to become a hacker. (I did not say "the only way to become a senior programmer", unfortunately this is possible by asking such quests nowadays)
    – hek2mgl
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 18:51
  • 3
    That close reason exists, @hek2mgl - it's not phrased like that, because that's super patronizing and what's the point of canning up a message that is gonna put folks off when folks will cheerfully write them anyway?
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 19:28
  • 2
    @Shog9 Truly spoken, my concerns are more about the next generation of hackers than about the close reasons. I think SO has some significant sort of influence and responsibility on that as it is present in every office every day. (imo) Do we want Q/A copy and paste coders? Enforcing high quality on the page is important for that. The close reasons are just one part.
    – hek2mgl
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 19:55
  • 3
    Most of the close reasons in that data dump are just fine. Most are helpful, even! Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 18:55
  • 3
    Take a read down that list. At a glance, I can see zillions of good "off topic" close reasons. This feature seems to be working just perfectly... What, are you complaining about that small percentage which has problems? Guess what, everything in life can (and will) be abused for bad purposes. Get used to it. Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 13:18
  • 2
    The linked query does not find most of my custom off-topic comments as I usually change the canned comment text to "this question is off topic because [...]" - see this query for a list of those comments. The default is too defensively worded IMO; when I use a custom reason there is usually no doubt about the question being on-topic or not.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 16:51
36

Lets look at this query the further grouped query (by MSalters) a bit more with some tweaks. I'm not interested in the 'who said what', but rather 'how often are things said.

The following data is for all repeated custom off topic 10 and greater:

subs                                         
---------------------------------------- --- 
 it is about SEO                         300 
 it is not about programming             234 
 it is not about programming See [What   93  
 it is about a typo                      92  
 it belongs on http://codereviewstackex  68  
 it lacks sufficient information to diag 44  
 it is too localized                     42  
 it is about code review                 41  
 it is aimed at [webmasters](http://webm 40  
 it is about math                        37  
 it is about licensing                   36  
 it is not within the bounds of discussi 35  
 it is about a syntax error              29  
 it is not about programming Perhaps [S  25  
 it is not a programming question        25  
 it is about legal advice                24  
 it is about mathematics                 24  
 it belongs to http://codereviewstackex  22  
 it is about maths                       21  
 it is about the Appstore approval proce 20  
 it is not a question                    20  
 it is not about a specific programming  19  
 it shows no prior research nor minimal  19  
 it is about math, not programming       18  
 it has nothing to do with programming   17  
 it belongs on codereviewstackexchange   17  
 it is a code review request This is be  16  
 it is not related to programming        16  
 it is about software versions, administ 15  
 it is about something other than progra 15  
 it is too localised                     13  
 it is about SEO, not programming        12  
 this isn't a code-writing service       12  
 it is a typo                            11  
 it is about [codereviewse]              11  
 it belongs on [Code Review](http://code 11  
 it is about statistics                  11  
 it is about theoretical computer scienc 11  
 it is about mathematics, not programmin 11  
 it belongs on csstackexchangecom        10  
 it is a request for a code review       10  
 it is about statistics, not programming 10  
 it is not programming related           10  
 

Some of these should likely have been other off topic reasons. Typos, for example have their own dedicated off topic reason:

This question was caused by a problem that can no longer be reproduced or a simple typographical error. While similar questions may be on-topic here, this one was resolved in a manner unlikely to help future readers. This can often be avoided by identifying and closely inspecting the shortest program necessary to reproduce the problem before posting.

The unfortunate thing here is that they aren't given more guidance about what is needed for the issue of how to ask questions about typos (which either get fixed in the process of asking the question or clearly become not-typos when there is a problem).

Many of these off topic reasons are also attempts at guiding the person to the proper site in the absence of a way to migrate there with close votes. This is a repeatedly asked issue both here and on MSE about how to migrate. In my corner of the network (Programmers.SE) we will actively try to keep people from suggesting such and instead flagging for migration.

One of the features that custom off topic reasons have is that they leave a comment right now. Thus, writing "it is a typo" in the custom box is easier than selecting the proper off topic reason and leaving a comment.


This all then brings up the question of what is the proper use of the custom off topic reason? These custom off topic reasons offer the most information about what the community is saying it doesn't want and what it is fighting against.

There is a significant amount of questions about SEO that are apparently showing up in the custom off topic reasons. Homework is another issue. And then there's the not about programming. (side bit: 10k users - such queries might be good ones to look at to find things that are off topic and should be deleted... the hundreds of homework problems, app store approval questions, countless SEO and typos.)

Does the closing community need further guidance about how to address these questions that show up? or is it something that somehow needs to communicated better to the people asking the question?

Note that the people are doing this are the ones that are trying to keep the site to what they view the site should be. If the mods wish to, they are welcome to go through and audit these questions and reopen them. If the mods feel that this is too much of a task, please consider it also from the people trying to close the questions and that they are even more outnumbered than you are.

I will also point to the potential disgruntlement of the users. We've seen a number of rage-quits and there's those graphs of answer activity declining. Coming from Programmers.SE, we've seen the 'fun' of what happens when the mods/SE tries to redefine the scope of the site. It wasn't pretty, there is still fallout years later... and that was a narrowing of the scope. To have the mods say 'no, this is acceptable on this site' would likely have an impact on people who are disappointed at the quality of questions that SO is getting.

If one doesn't want SO to become a "do my homework for me" site, then closing a question because it is a copy and paste of homework is the right answer and does give guidance to the OP that the 'unclear' doesn't (I'm sure I can find people complaining about unclear being used as a proxy for "you haven't shown your work - what is your problem?").

Trying to redirect or restrict the tool that people have to fight questions that are beyond the defined off topic reasons is not likely a good solution. Providing people with better tools for addressing these questions which the community doesn't want is likely a better solution.

The other thing to point out... the 'bad' ones really aren't that prevalent. Sure, you see them and they stick out, but they are not that common as to cause issue with being something you see frequently.

11
  • 8
    Nice job. Showing once again that there is very little signal in the noise. Do keep in mind that the survival rate for the snarky ones isn't that good. Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 18:07
  • Nice job. On seeing Brad's query I really got the itch to make it actually somewhat useful, too. Only saw you did it (and wrote about it, at some length) afterwards. Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 19:56
  • 5
    Physics.SE actually has a "Not about physics" variant as one of their site-specific close reasons, emblazoned with the bolded caption: "Blatantly Off-Topic." I'm guessing Gnat helped them write that one.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 19:57
  • 3
    @RobertHarvey actually - thats what flaggers see rather than the ability to enter a custom reason.
    – user289086
    Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 20:02
  • Oh. I see that SE is now regularly exceeding my ability to keep up with their changes.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 20:04
  • 2
    Almost half of these seem like a way to say "Belongs on another SE site" in a less-definitive way. That doesn't seem to unreasonable. If I don't frequent CodeReview or SoftwareRecs or Math, I may suspect that something is possibly a Math question but not want to say so for sure or directly suggest a migration that might not be appropriate. Would changing the wording of that close reason (or even the text in the dialog) would eliminate a lot of these, making it easier to see the real problems (or lack thereof)?
    – abarnert
    Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 23:29
  • 2
    @abarnert unlikely. If people don't put it in the close reason, they put it in a comment and close it with some other reason. People don't appear to be familiar with the proper way to migrate (custom flag if not an ordained route). There are ideas for how to deal with this (can you tell this is a pet issue for me?) out there.
    – user289086
    Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 23:36
  • @abarnert the other bit is that sometimes, people just don't care and figure once its migrated (or suggested as part of a close reason) it isn't their problem anymore.
    – user289086
    Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 23:37
  • 1
    @abarnert Keep in mind that you can only vote for a migration to certain specific sites (currently meta, SU, tex.SE, dba.SE, and stats.SE). You can recommend other sites in a custom comment, but that's it.
    – user149341
    Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 4:42
  • 2
    Just a rhetoric question: Could we harvest some good off-topic reasons from these lists and merge it to the current list? E.g.: why are only specific sites listed for migration?..most of the times I need one which isn't on the list. Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 13:35
  • 1
    Grouped even further.
    – MSalters
    Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 13:42
21

I wish you so-called experts (just because you have degrees, and decades of experience across the software development industry, you think you are better than I am) would just leave my no-effort questions alone. If you do, or just downvote, some moron will usually pop up an answer that I can copy/paste into my assignments. I don't care about downvotes; I'll just open another account next week for my next slave command.

Are you too thick to understand? I don't want my questions closed. I don't want to improve them (I don't know how to anyway 'cos I don't understand them - understanding and work are for the little drones like you). I just want an unique, condensed answer so it doesn't match anyone else's subsmission and so, 'experts' (hah - you couldn't spot a scam if it fell on you), get going on Google and extract the info for me. Obviously, that's a waste of your so-called 'valuable time', but at least it's not my time, so who cares? If you're quick, you might even get an accept out of it, so get my work done by tomorrow before my 1200 deadline arrives. I guess I could have asked last week, but I couldn't be bothered until now.

Anyway, I'm off down to the bar.

Bye suckers!

[example: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/25990596/what-is-exploratory-testing-sanity-testing-component-testing]

9
  • 15
    I find it really annoying when I see statements like this assuming all "simple" questions are asked with this kind of attitude. I've frequently switched to new technologies and had to ask beginner questions before. Often I have no idea what it is I should be searching for, and just need a boost in the right direction. In fact, when I first started using the sites I had a really hard time even understanding there was a community behind them, or any kind of quality control. Sure some users may have this attitude, but not most users. Most users asking basic questions are uneducated, not malicious
    – Rachel
    Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 14:35
  • 6
    @Martin: This isn't soapbox.com. If you have a reasoned argument, rather than a rant, make one.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 15:02
  • 13
    I have no problem with 'simple' questions. Often, a misunderstanding of the available information, or unclear documentation or just lack of experience leads developers astray. I do, however, strongly object to being used, obviously or not, as a Google operator and homework writer. What other explanation could there be for 'I searched on the web but still didn't understand. Please explain', when a Google search on the exact wording of the title results in 'About 36,000,000 results', and the first page reveals several good resources with clear information? Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 18:24
  • 4
    @RobertHarvey It's to late, he's done climbed up there now. We keep hiding them, smashing them, even burning them, but he just buys more soap! For christ sake, I'm so soaped up I haven't seen a dirty in years!
    – thecoshman
    Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 18:32
  • 13
    Meta is a soapbox. The only reason it is there, get used to it already. And it absolutely fine when somebody uses it to show the opposite view. Not like meta isn't abused all the time to sharpen the sword repeatedly. Nice job Martin, you are a very level-headed SO contributor that keeps getting it right. Great job. Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 23:34
  • 3
    @RobertHarvey: He appears to be using irony to get a point across. What exactly is wrong with that?
    – tmyklebu
    Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 5:43
  • 13
    @RobertHarvey: To clarify, it almost seems like folks like Shog9 and OP here are actively trying to turn SO into a site specifically for people like the one being parodied here. Closing stuff for being a work order is a "misuse" and I should use "too broad" instead so I don't hurt someone's feelings? I should downvote worthless questions that clearly show a basic lack of research instead of voting to close? Because someone might polish the turd just enough that it'll be Useful To Someone Else? And no edits are "too minor" any longer and reviewers have to polish bad questions up?
    – tmyklebu
    Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 5:50
  • 7
    I'm sorry but I must side with @MartinJames here. The problem isn't with 'simple' questions. It's with question that are asked without any consideration for the people that answer them in the first place. And such questions can be simple or complicated, it doesn't matter. I've seen in the past few days a few questions in C++ that would be deemed very simple, but the OP showed effort, respect, and those were upvoted and answered by knowledgable users.
    – JBL
    Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 16:50
  • 7
    You're damn right, @tmyklebu - I don't want folks' feelings being hurt, not unless there's something good that'll come out of it. I have absolutely zero desire to engage the sort of person Martin is parodying here; if they aren't contributing anything useful, I want them to leave not stay and argue. If you want to help only "deserving" people, then go help your co-workers in private - regardless of whose question you answer here, the vast majority of people benefiting from that answer will have put no effort in beyond typing a query into Google.
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 19:37
14

Most of the close vote reasons in existence are just fine. Helpful, even!

Bluefeet said that she'd been removing the bad ones, so that's probably why. Barring those unknown abuses, which I've yet to see first-hand, the problem is not the reasons themselves but the fact that they are increasingly necessary. What you're seeing is frustration of regulars. Fix the cause. (And there are about 5 high-scoring Meta questions on that at the moment :P)

2

If a question is bad, and it has a bad custom close reason and several close voters voted for that reason, what happened?

Sometimes that will be because of robo-reviewers.

Another possibility is that the additional close voters agree that the question is bad, and should be dealt with in some way, and voting to close with the existing reason was the easiest thing to do.

Shog9 repeatedly suggests that questions that are bad should be down voted rather that voted to close. So the system eventually automatically deletes them.

Given that, I think it is crazy that is not possible to down vote questions when looking at them in the close queue. If we had a Poor Quality button, which translated to leave open plus a down vote, might we see less voting for bad custom close reasons?

3
  • Note that the roomba will only delete open questions if they don't have an answer. Closing prevents future answers making it both easier to fix the question (not trying to keep existing answers correct) and delete the question (if it isn't salvageable). Poor questions should be down voted. Off topic questions that are not clearly defined as off topic by the existing off topic reasons (note: questions about homework are listed in the off topic on the help center, but don't have a corresponding close reason... other than custom (math, App Store, seo, legal, etc...)).
    – user289086
    Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 23:20
  • @MichaelT There was talk of the roomba being changed to also delete questions with answers, but I'm confused about the current state of that. Homework questions are not off topic (to the digust of many; in most cases they are crap). The OP is objecting to people using bad custom close reasons, not to people using custom close reasons.
    – Raedwald
    Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 23:40
  • Would you care to look at item #3 on the help : on-topic? While homework questions are not off topic, homework dumps, without work or description of problem appear to be off topic. (I also love the roomba and look forward to future changes for it to be more aggressive).
    – user289086
    Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 23:48
0

With evidence in hand (Thanks Brad!):

You're right, people are misusing the close reasons.

They sometimes use 'too broad' where it's not warranted -- simply because a moderator expressed that they should use it in some instances.

That's the problem; users want so badly to close certain questions that they'll take specific, targeted advice and apply it to posts it shouldn't be applied to.

There are specific, enumerated reasons to close a post. The 'catch all' reason was to see if there were specific reasons a question is being closed that are not enumerated, to see if there should be other close reasons.

Of course there are those that want to close questions where the OP didn't demonstrate any research -- but if we did that, Stack Overflow probably wouldn't be where it is today.

There are nuances to closing; but for some, it's a bludgeon.

30
  • I was interested in broad thoughts, but for reference the question I discussed is here. I didn't want to include it in my question, as it may seem a little like user-bashing (since one person clearly started the close ball rolling). Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 13:09
  • 1
    "to see if there should be other close reasons" > So, deep in the bowels of Stack Exchange, are people looking through that list to see what is most commonly used? Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 13:12
  • 8
    Your thoughts on the question are a perfect example of why I think the mod opinion on closing is horribly inconsistent. A simple example that shows what OP wants is "unclear"? You can edit out all of OPs text and only keep the input and output data, and I would still be able to understand and answer the question. You are right that it's useless to other visitors, but mostly as it's too localized as the question is just a specific problem dump. If "unclear" should be used for these questions, the close reason text needs a massive overhaul - currently it's unclear how the reason applies here.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 13:26
  • 14
    @GeorgeStocker but as I said, the text of the "unclear" reason does not apply here. You're right that OP cannot clearly express his problem in text, but there's no need to do so because the example data is clear enough and actually clarifies what the text is supposed to express. I agree that the question should be closed, but the main problem is IMO that it's not a programming problem as OP never started programming anything. It's just a request dump; "please solve this for me" - and IMO we need a reason for these types of non-questions.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 13:42
  • 21
    Actually, I just want "minimal understanding" back, or at least something similar. I agree that there can be good questions that show no effort and are basically just a code request, but the huge majority of these questions is crap like the one discussed here. You even said yourself that it is simply not useful - which is sadly the case for most python questions nowadays. And when there is no official reason that fits those questions, people just write whatever. Only downvoting is a good idea in theory but close to useless in practice due to sympathy upvotes and people answering everything.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 15:08
  • 4
    Of course there's a reason to do so, @l4mpi: if he wants to attract someone interested in answering the question, it behooves him to describe it properly. By the same token, if the problem is well-described, other people with the same problem can also find it. "Unclear" means exactly what it says - if this lack of clarity doesn't stop someone from figuring out a potential solution, that means nothing; the close reason exists for questions where it's "hard to tell exactly what you're asking". Let's be honest: if the question had looked the way it looks now, it wouldn't have been closed.
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 15:48
  • 8
    @Shog9 there are no people with the same problem in 99% of those cases, because the problem is simply a combination of OPs specific task and extremely low level of understanding. I bet there are many half-duplicates of the question, as it's basically "how do I use dicts and lists in python" - the problem is none of these questions help anybody other than OP, as they're too narrow to be useful to other people who have no idea what they're doing. And crappy questions attract crappy answers, how could anybody learn anything from the two answers here? Not that it deserves any better...
    – l4mpi
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 16:22
  • 3
    @l4mpi: but don't you see? That is a fundamental lack of clarity! This may be the only person who will ever need to collate those specific lists, but it is extremely unlikely it is the only person who will need to collate lists in Python. By identifying the essence of the question, the question itself becomes valuable - and with it, any answers it might obtain. The essential question may not have changed, but its potential value to the community of programmers has increased immensely with nothing more than a title edit.
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 17:47
  • 6
    @Shog9 But how would you turn the question into "How to collate lists in python"? Even if you don't go that far and just edit it into something a little more general which could maybe be useful to a broader audience, that edit would be rather radical. And generally while you could spend some effort to make this question more acceptable, nobody wants to invest effort into questions like this - people just dump lazy/crappy answers for driveby upvotes. In general, many people on SO just want these questions closed and gone as fast as possible and not spend any effort on them; IMO rightfully so.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 18:10
  • 26
    The problem with minimal understanding was that it was abused to close all questions that didn't show effort. - This isn't a problem unless you make it one. One of the long-standing issues with StackOverflow is the junk that new users who don't show any effort keep filling it with, the type of question that drives away the experts the site is supposed to be for. That close reason was IMO the only real step made towards solving the problem.
    – Izkata
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 18:13
  • 2
    @Shog9 This has been probably asked before, but why do we need a close reason at all? Its obvious that they are widely misused, regardless of how you rephrase them. (over the years). If there is no need of commenting a down-vote (which is really confusing sometimes when missing, and would help to understand the problem with the answer if present) why do we need to choose a close reason? Mostly, because of being misused, this confuses the OP even more. Just a "the oracle of SO doesn't accept your question" might be enough? Then the OP will need to use his/her brain, and I'm sure will find out
    – hek2mgl
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 19:18
  • 6
    @Shog9: The question still kinda sucks, too---"I have a simple data processing task that I just haven't bothered trying to solve. No, I'm not going to tell you where I get stuck solving this data processing task." I don't see how to fix that without being in OP's skull. And it's hard for me to fathom what sort of answer could be given to this question that would be useful to anyone other than OP, so I don't have trouble seeing why the answers aren't great.
    – tmyklebu
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 19:19
  • 2
    Never the less, it identifies the problem being solved with a reasonable amount of specificity, @tmyklebu. If there is anyone else facing a problem that meets this description, they have a reasonable expectation of finding this question now - which is sufficient to make it not a waste of time to provide a good answer, should anyone care to do so. Folks often get stuck on simple operations - heck, textbooks are full of examples like this, as solving them provides a good exercise for folks when learning.
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 22, 2014 at 19:25
  • 6
    Many of those close reasons are fine. Instead of linking to all of them and then ranting, quote the ones you think are "questionable". Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 18:56
  • 2
    And also which percentage the bad apples represent. Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 23:33

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .