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Over the last year, we have been chipping away at the problem of Outdated Answers, highly upvoted answers that may no longer be the best solution to a problem. I wanted to let you know what we're working on and what you can expect in the coming weeks. 

TL;DR — we are making small changes to the answer-sorting menu in preparation for creating a new Trending sort, while we continue to work on the version-label functionality we previewed on Meta a few months ago.

Sorting menu changes

One of the solution ideas we are working on is a new sorting option called “Trending” that will decay votes over time. In other words, an upvote cast today will count more than a vote cast two years ago. Our hope is that this new way of sorting will surface newer, better answers that have no chance of catching up to the incumbent in terms of overall score (upvotes minus downvotes).

Behind the scenes, we have been working on potential Trending algorithms, and we will create a separate post in the near future with a lot more detail when we are closer to settling on our approach.

In the meantime, we are making some incremental changes to the answer sorting menu in preparation for launching the Trending sort. We are moving the sort menu into a dropdown, introducing ascending and descending sorts for all of the options, and changing the names of sort options to have clearer descriptions. Check out our Meta Stack Exchange post for details and screenshots.

Version label idea

We reached out on Meta a few months ago to get your initial thoughts about adding labels to answers that indicate which version(s) the answer applies to (e.g., "Python 3.6 and earlier"). See our original post for details and screenshots. Thank you so much for all of your thoughtful feedback, especially as it relates to the administrative challenges of managing versions over time.

Since we posted on Meta, we have conducted additional research, including user interviews, to further refine our ideas.

Adding version labels is a pretty sizable project, and we want to make sure that we get it right. We are still in the early stages of defining what features are must-have for a Minimum Viable Product and how we might build the functionality out over time. Stay tuned — we'll post in more detail and ask for lots of input in the near future.

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    I'm already excited to see details on the trending algorithm! Commented Jan 31, 2022 at 17:04
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    This sounds like a great idea. I'm sure the algorithm will have to be adjusted many times, but it's definitely a step in the right direction
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jan 31, 2022 at 18:00
  • 12
    No...? Eh? What about sites where answers do not become obsolete within three years? Answers posted on Skeptics, History, English Language, and Politics to name but a few have highly upvoted answers posted in 2010-2014 whose value have not diminished over time. If this initiative is exclusive to SO then that's fine. I'm sure SO users will be relieved to finally see obsolete answers fade in popularity but please leave out the smaller sites.
    – Mari-Lou A
    Commented Jan 31, 2022 at 21:08
  • 38
    @Mari-LouA This is SO-only for the foreseeable future
    – Anita Taylor StaffMod
    Commented Jan 31, 2022 at 22:27
  • 2
    Please also provide an option to sort it by score. Commented Feb 1, 2022 at 8:56
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    @AyxanHaqverdili: They're not saying they're removing existing sort options.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 1, 2022 at 9:16
  • 3
    Call me cynical, but I see a lot of sock puppets coming out of the ether to make one-off votes. ( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)
    – user692942
    Commented Feb 1, 2022 at 10:07
  • 3
    @Mari-LouA without knowing the precise details of the trending algorithm I guess the idea is that older still-useful answers on Skeptics etc. will continue to receive upvotes, and therefore will stay on top of the trending sort, while outdated answers on SO will not receive (many) new upvotes and will go down in the sort order. Or maybe on SO the outdated answers will still receive new upvotes and nothing will change on any site :)
    – Marijn
    Commented Feb 1, 2022 at 11:48
  • 1
    Nice feature. I always wanted to have it. Btw. what will be the default sort order? Also, because this question has "outdated answers" in the title: is there anything more in the pipeline about outdated answers like identifying them directly and improving one way or another? Commented Feb 1, 2022 at 14:13
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    It could be nice to give newer answers a small bit of weight in this trending sort as well, so that they could, for example, jump ahead of all the other really-low-voted answers in a highly active question. The other answers had a change to get some upvotes, failed, and now we ought to give the newer answers a bit of the spotlight, at least for a small period of time. Commented Feb 1, 2022 at 16:35
  • 2
    Will the trending score be made more prominent than the raw score? Will the trending score also decrease the penalty incurred by very old downvotes?
    – jxh
    Commented Feb 2, 2022 at 6:27
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    That sounds really promising. Thank you! I foresee a possible challenge in preventing lots of new answers that are basically the same answer. Same questions attract these already, and incentivizing new answers may make this problem worse. But I do like the fact that the accepted answer isn't pinned to the top any more, and I like giving newer better answers more visibility over an old out-of-date answer that has had time to accumulate a lot of upvotes.
    – Flimm
    Commented Feb 2, 2022 at 9:57
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    Is this posted on Stack Overflow Meta because you are planning it as a Stack-Overflow-only feature? I'd love to see trending sort network-wide. Other Stack Exchange sites have this same problem. Commented Feb 4, 2022 at 11:30
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    @StephenOstermiller We are designing and building it specifically for Stack Overflow. As we get closer to implementation, we will ask mods which sites (if any) want to implement it. But we don't have plans to design and optimize the algorithm for specific SE sites other than SO.
    – Anita Taylor StaffMod
    Commented Feb 4, 2022 at 15:26
  • 2
    @lineage Already planned. See this post
    – Anita Taylor StaffMod
    Commented Feb 9, 2022 at 17:12

5 Answers 5

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I welcome this change but I am not confident that it will actually work in all cases since upvotes beget upvotes. That is, already highly voted answers tend to garner new votes, even if they are outdated/wrong, because some people reflexively upvote already upvoted answers (they often tend to look correct even if they aren’t).

In fact, at least for some kinds of questions the previous change to address outdated answers made this worse: there are some topics with common misconceptions (I know of specific examples in the tag), and consequently wrong/misleading answers tend to be highly upvoted. Previously, these wrong answers were at least tucked away below the accepted answer but in the current situation they often sit above that (since the accepted answer often came later and cleared up the misconceptions).

Unfortunately I have no good solution for this issue besides appointing “domain experts” who can pin answers to the top (maybe tag gold badge holders?). And admittedly this is somewhat adjacent to the issue of outdated answers. I only bring it up here since, as mentioned, the recent change to address outdated answers made this problem worse.

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    "besides appointing “domain experts” who can pin answers to the top" Oh lord no. I've seen plenty of "domain experts" submit horrible answers. Besides, how would we determine who's an expert? Reputation?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 1, 2022 at 10:28
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    @Cerbrus Like I said: “I have no good solution”. I’m just spitballing here. That said, and to answer your question, we already have ways of appointing domain experts, e.g. via the aforementioned gold badges (which currently confers duplicate close voting privileges). — Anyway, the point of my answer isn’t to present a solution, it’s to highlight the problem. But even so, having people with privileges to pin answer, while problematic, might still be better than the current situation, which is really bad. Commented Feb 1, 2022 at 10:37
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    Is a gold badge really a indication of someone being a domain expert? Or is it just an indication someone put a significant amount of time into answering on a certain tag? I guess I'm a domain expert on discussion :D
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 1, 2022 at 10:38
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    @Cerbrus That’s a valid question. At the very least it requires a substantial time investment and positive track record in a particular tag. It certainly isn’t nothing. For the tags I have a gold badge in I would certainly consider myself a domain expert but I also almost have a java gold badge and while I’ve done Java development professionally for some time I wouldn’t consider myself an expert, except in a fairly small niche. Commented Feb 1, 2022 at 10:39
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    I'm still baffled that instead of updating the obsolete answer so that is no longer obsolete, we prefer trying to algorithmically tell whenever is obsolete.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 1, 2022 at 11:27
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    @Braiam stack overflow is big. Doing stuff algorithmically is the only way to get stuff done at all (with any consistency). Commented Feb 1, 2022 at 14:04
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    @EkadhSingh-ReinstateMonica Braiam is right. This proposed change here is good and useful, but will hardly help with outdated answers much. It came up during the initial discusssion but has hardly the capability to tackle outdated content. Basically outdated content is still an unsolved problem. Commented Feb 1, 2022 at 14:12
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    @Cerbrus reminds me of the old MSDN forums where serial posters would go through and accept (pin??? been a long time since I used it so not sure of the terminology) their own answers after a day if the asker didn't do it for them. A depressing share of those were only gun in the west replies that didn't really understand the actual problem. Commented Feb 1, 2022 at 15:23
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    It's worth pointing out, I think, that this is not a Stack Overflow problem. It's a human problem. If SO could sort out how to identify proper experts and then make their correct facts (and not their incorrect opinions) bubble up above the cacophony of wrong or misleading information, in a way that all non-experts would then recognize as true and acceptable... well, that would solve a lot of problems in the world, wouldn't it? (Just have to crack that pesky engineering problem: "what is truth?")
    – JDB
    Commented Feb 1, 2022 at 17:03
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    How does modified Wilson score fare?
    – dumbass
    Commented Feb 2, 2022 at 9:26
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    @user3840170 It might be worth putting this as its own answer. I had forgotten about Wilson scoring and, it seems, so has Stack Overflow. Or maybe they have good reasons for not considering it (after all, it’s a well-researched, established statistical score, so the fact that Stack Overflow still uses a completely naïve and objectively unsuitable alternative is, on the face of it, surprising). Commented Feb 2, 2022 at 9:30
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    We haven't forgotten about Wilson score, we just haven't prioritized it. For now, we are specifically trying to solve for the problem of getting more visibility to newer answers over entrenched incumbents, and Wilson won't do that. It will still heavily favor incumbents.
    – Anita Taylor StaffMod
    Commented Feb 4, 2022 at 15:30
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    @AnitaTaylor Do you know that Wilson scoring won’t do that (because you have looked at actual data from this site) or are you just assuming that? Without actually having tried it myself I find it likely that it would (if not outright solve, then at least substantially) alleviate the issue: outdated answers do get downvoted, and new answers get upvoted. It just doesn’t happen enough to budge answers in the current naïve sorting, but it might be sufficient with a more sophisticated scoring. Commented Feb 4, 2022 at 15:55
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    @AnitaTaylor … and just to clarify: I’m not expecting you to explain your decisions to me, obviously — contrary to how my previous comment might come across. I just wanted to caution against making assumptions without having looked at data in this regard. Commented Feb 4, 2022 at 16:13
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    @Braiam, "obsolete" answers are not so obsolete for those who support legacy applications
    – ASh
    Commented Feb 5, 2022 at 21:31
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Just a few questions:

we are working on is a new sorting option called “Trending” that will decay votes over time

  • Will trending sort be the new default sort order (for new users) or will the traditional score sorting remain the default sort order?
  • Will there be some kind of trending score or will the traditional score (upvotes - downvotes) be displayed also for trending sort order?

And

the problem of Outdated Answers, highly upvoted answers that may no longer be the best solution to a problem

  • Is there anything planned to identify outdated answers directly and maybe update them? I guess the answer version label is the only thing there. What if only the practice has been superseded and the outdatedness is not directly related to a version? How will answer version labels interact with question version tags?
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    Score will remain the default sort order, as Trending won't be applicable to all questions (e.g., a question with two answers with zero votes can't trend because there are no votes to decay).
    – Anita Taylor StaffMod
    Commented Feb 4, 2022 at 15:19
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    We are in the process of conducting research (we just completed user interviews and are analyzing the results) where we presented users with two potential designs: one with version labels and one with a banner stating that the answer was outdated (which, if implemented, would necessitate us coming up with a path to update the outdated answers). We haven't come to any conclusions yet re: if we will go in that direction.
    – Anita Taylor StaffMod
    Commented Feb 4, 2022 at 15:23
  • @AnitaTaylor Many thanks. For two answers that trend equally (for example by not having any votes at all) you can do the same as is done for score sorting with equal score, just sort randomly first, then according to score (there must be some sort of internal trending score being calculated, for example 0 if there are no votes to decay). An outdated answer with a banner might link to other answers (which aren't marked as outdated) and might require another review queue, where the outdatedness is checked after each edit (unless it's a minor edit). But keep up the work. Sounds promising. Commented Feb 4, 2022 at 15:31
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I know there is not much detail about the trending answers sort right now, but here are some possible suggestions (that may or may not have already been considered)

  • I'm just going to assume that trending is going to include downvotes in its calculations, but it may also be worthwhile to consider flags.
  • Either change the name to something different or include some kind of minimum barrier to entry. If there is a question with one answer that hasn't had anything happen to it in the past 7 years (no votes, no edits, no comments, no anything), and it shows up under the trending sort order, that's a bit misleading.
  • If an answer was posted so recently that it has no votes, I don't feel like it should be behind an answer that got 1 vote 2 years ago in the trending sort order, so maybe (for the purposes of calculating the trending sort order, nothing else) count answers posted within the last x minutes as having some half (or some other percentage) of a vote given to them at their time of posting, until they get their first vote (whether it be up or down).
  • Maybe rename the interesting or hot question list on the homepage to trending if they function similarly, so that new users will have less names to remember. I don't use the homepage, so I don't know if that's true or not.

Also, this isn't about the new trending sort order, but it may be worth considering adding a help center article about the sort order (assuming that I just haven't been blind and completely missed it).

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    Regarding your second point, having answer posts disappear because of how they're sorted would also be confusing. There would need to be something explaining that it's also a filter.
    – BSMP
    Commented Jan 31, 2022 at 19:15
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    It was my understanding that Trending was going to be an Answer sort, not something added to the homepage. Could be wrong, but that would solve the second and last bullet points. Commented Jan 31, 2022 at 20:00
  • @HereticMonkey I don't understand how that would resolve the second bullet point, but I can see how the last bullet point is unclear, so I'll edit to clarify Commented Jan 31, 2022 at 21:08
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    Well, if Trending is only a sort order shown for answers under questions, it wouldn't apply to "a question with one answer ..." I would think that all answers would show up under any sort order (as a sort of follow up to @BSMP's comment). Commented Jan 31, 2022 at 22:50
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    Point 2: A answer that hasn't had activity in 7 years is maybe "least trending", but it certainly shouldn't be hidden. It just gets moved to the bottom of the list. Keep in mind that these are sort orders, not filters. Less activity -> lower "trending-ness" ranking.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 1, 2022 at 8:47
  • @Cerbrus but if there is only one answer, than that answer is at the top of the list. (Note: I understand that hiding answers is probably a bad idea, but I'm just explaining my original thinking, not my current one). Commented Feb 1, 2022 at 14:06
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    @EkadhSingh-ReinstateMonica so? It's the "most trending" out of all the (1) answers on there... That's how sorting works.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 1, 2022 at 14:20
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    @EkadhSingh-ReinstateMonica Stay tuned for the upcoming post that will describe in more detail how trending works and the algorithms we plan to user test.
    – Anita Taylor StaffMod
    Commented Feb 4, 2022 at 15:31
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I'm not sure that "trending" is a good policy. It leads to instability: the "going viral" effect. A post that's interesting to three times as many people should reach three times as many people, not 1000 times as many. The "Hot Network Questions" already suffer from this effect.

Having said that, ageing of votes seems reasonable. But perhaps even better would be "structured voting" where upvotes and downvotes have to give a reason, e.g. downvoting explicitly because the answer is no longer the best way of doing things.

Any mechanism for treating answers as "it was a good answer once, but is no longer the best answer" needs to take into account that there are an awful lot of users using (and wanting help with) old technology. It's particularly extreme for those of us in the XML community, where the mainstream technology offered by Microsoft and Oracle (and indeed the browser vendors) is ancient, which means many people are stuck using it 20 years after the standards have moved on.

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    "where upvotes and downvotes have to give a reason" No, just... No.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 3, 2022 at 9:49
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    I also think "trending" is trying to solve the exact problem you're trying to solve with ageing votes... But it's kinda pointless to speculate about that without any information on how it'd work.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 3, 2022 at 9:51
  • I don’t see how “going viral” would be an issue in this regard. Likewise, I don’t think this would be an issue with old but still used technologies such as the examples you’ve cited. Within the context of a question these answers would remain valid. — As for mandating comments on downvotes I completely agree with you but it’s clear that we’re in a tiny minority and this is a lost fight. Commented Feb 3, 2022 at 11:05
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    I'm afraid you're right about downvotes. They go on and on about being nice to new users, and they fail to see that downvoting without explanation is one of the nastiest things you can do. Commented Feb 3, 2022 at 18:07
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    One of the nastiest things a new user can do is just skip the tour, and dump a low quality question on SO without any prior research... "Nasty" is a two-way street.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 4, 2022 at 9:13
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    @Cerbrus No that's not nasty, it's just human nature. No-one who needs to get urgently from A to B wants to read the terms and conditions for using the SatNav before they start. While telling them they've done something wrong without telling them what is just mean: they desperately want to know why they've been rejected by the community and what they need to do to become accepted. Commented Feb 4, 2022 at 10:01
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    If they desperately want to know that, they just have to read all the banners and help they're getting when asking their question. But people don't read... They're not interested in the rules, they just want a quick answer to their question. Notice how I mentioned "prior research". That's a core skill of any developer, knowing how to search for answers. If a dev comes onto SO asking how to split a string, he's already skipped 3 steps.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 4, 2022 at 10:06
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    Ok, here's my mandatory reason: I downvoted your answer because you didn't do enough research. Good comment, right? Very helpful, right? That's what you would get en masse if you made downvote comments mandatory. If you want to coddle people who dump their homework assignment verbatim without even adding a single sentence of their own, feel free to write exhaustive comments for them, but the average expert who sees hundreds of these questions a week would at best copypaste a canned message such as "please read the help center" and at worst just type some obscenities or gibberish.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Feb 4, 2022 at 11:27
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    @14mpi A user who sees an anonymous downvote feels a lack of confidence because they don't understand why they're being criticised. A user who sees a downvote accompanied by incoherent obscenities or gibberish knows that it comes from a jerk who can safely be ignored. Commented Feb 4, 2022 at 12:53
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    @MichaelKay: and a user who sees a constructive comment explaining why their question is off-topic more often than not starts complaining about SO, insulting the author of said comment, blatantly denies the question being off-topic, etc. A user who sees a comment explaining why their question is of low quality more often than not feels insulted, or starts arguing why they're entitled to an answer.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 4, 2022 at 12:59
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    @MichaelKay what Cerberus said - a user who is being criticised will IMO almost always become defensive, even if the criticism is absolutely justified (e.g. I've seen many questions which only link to images of code with a comment from another user along the lines of "please don't post code as images" and OP either didn't understand why that's a problem, didn't respond at all, or even responded aggressively because someone else found their typo in the meantime and posted an answer). Oh, and try to @ the correct username next time, you can tab-complete those if you're unaware.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Feb 4, 2022 at 13:51
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    @MichaelKay also, you ignored my main point, which is that even non-offensive comments are not even useful most of the time. "Not enought research" and "not useful" are both generic reasons for which it's totally fine to downvote questions or answers, but a comment along the lines of "your question does not show any research" or "your question is duplicated 73851 times already" is basically noise and would probably only serve to enrage the poster. Same for answers, "The code in your answer is bad practice" would fit probably half of the answers in some tags, but is useless without detail.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Feb 4, 2022 at 13:56
  • I've been in a few intelligent/constructive discussions about requiring comments with downvotes. Eventually I crystallized my philosophy (feature request) as: Do not require anyone to leave a comment when they downvote; BUT 1. a downvote on an answer with no comment/flag should cost -2 rep, and 2. a downvote on a question with no comment/flag/vote-to-close should cost -2 rep. Furthermore, if a comment gets deleted, the flag invalidated/aged-away, or the closed page gets reopened, the rep loss is applied (bringing the downvoter's attention back to the post). Now the DVer can make a new decision Commented Feb 5, 2022 at 5:13
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    @MichaelKay that sounds like you think they person would only get one of these comments, but what if they get 5 down votes and then have 5 comments that is noise, that could easily bury actual helpful advise. if you excuse the laziness of the poster not taking the tour for human nature than you have to do the same for people just downvoting and walking away, it is a simple you get what you give.
    – Nifim
    Commented Feb 7, 2022 at 21:31
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    I've never believed in anonymity. I've always believed that if you criticise someone, you should be accountable and able to defend your criticism. Commented Feb 9, 2022 at 6:46
-6

I don't understand why outdated answers are such a big problem. In my experience, outdated answers typically have some upvoted comment pointing out why it is no longer good and what to do instead, typically with a link to the more recent answer or some wiki page. People read more than the top answer. I probably would have read any answer that has garnered enough upvotes to be picked up by this new algorithm.

I don't like the idea of algorithms meddling with my evaluation of answers on SO and potentially promoting their agenda, so please at least don't consider removing "sort by score".

I would like to see the resources spent on some actual problems, like maybe paying some of the volunteers you profit off of?

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    "I don't like the idea of algorithms meddling with my evaluation of answers on SO and potentially promoting their agenda, so please at least don't consider removing "sort by score"." I haven't read anything about removing a "sort by score" so as long as this doesn't happen, everything should be fine -- you would simply stick with the previous available sort orders. Commented Feb 2, 2022 at 9:40
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    "answers typically have some upvoted comment pointing out why it is no longer good and what to do instead" which is still not ideal. The ideal solution is that every question top answer is up-to-date. Instead of the comment saying that, an edit is preferable.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 2, 2022 at 11:16
  • 9
    Sometimes I have to wade through half a dozen answers before I find one that's up-to-date. The reality is that older answers have had more time and more opportunity to accumulate upvotes compared to newer answers, and newer better answers haven't received as many upvotes as needed to make comparing answers by upvotes a fair comparison.
    – Flimm
    Commented Feb 2, 2022 at 11:25
  • @Trilarion that's what I am hoping too Commented Feb 2, 2022 at 11:53
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    @Braiam If you put in the effort of writing an up-to-date answer, you might as well put in the effort of writing one comment explaining why it is better. It also has the added benefit of not dying out as the hype dies and the algorithm no longer favors that particular answer. Commented Feb 2, 2022 at 11:55
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    @Flimm that reality won't change. You still have to read all highly upvoted answers to see if you're missing something. If you were going to grab the first answer that appears to work, you have bigger problems already. Commented Feb 2, 2022 at 11:58
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    @AyxanHaqverdili I don't want to write an up-to-date answer, I want that the answer is up-to-date. Having several answers with varying degrees of freshness is what put us in this pickle. The site isn't designed for that (see help center "Editing is important for keeping questions and answers clear, relevant, and up-to-date"). Like wikipedia, all answers should reflect the current status of the issue. No amount of fudging with algorithms will achieve that. Editing on the other hand would do that immediately.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 2, 2022 at 12:03
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    I meant "you" as in the person writing the up-to-date answer which this algorithm is supposed to promote. I don't see this algorithm improving anything. I am willing to change my mind if you can convince me about the contrary, of course. (you as in someone, anyone). Commented Feb 2, 2022 at 12:07
  • @Braiam "Like wikipedia, all answers should reflect the current status of the issue..." Unfortunately we have rep (Wikipedia doesn't) and you only get rep for a new answer and nothing for editing. It seems the help center promoting edits is simply not enough. Commented Feb 2, 2022 at 12:44
  • @Trilarion on the contrary, you also don't lose rep for bad edits, so it's a moot point. Commented Feb 2, 2022 at 12:54
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    @AyxanHaqverdili It's not a moot point. With many times more upvotes than downvotes on the whole network you always on average gain more rep than you lose by posting a new answer than editing an existing one. There is not enough incentive to edit other contributions. SO is not Wikipedia, for the better or the worse (sometimes I think for the worse). Commented Feb 2, 2022 at 13:34
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    @AyxanHaqverdili I get notified if you edit my answer and if I do not agree with it, I will undo the edit. But that hardly ever happens anyway. Commented Feb 2, 2022 at 15:16
  • 3
    "People read more than the top answer."—citation needed
    – khelwood
    Commented Feb 3, 2022 at 10:47
  • 1
    @khelwood well, you did find this particular answer :) Commented Feb 3, 2022 at 11:24
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    Meta users are rarely the most common bunch of users. In fact, we may well be the most vocal, obnoxious rounding error. (nee SE ignoring meta feedback on many issues)
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 4, 2022 at 11:46

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