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I came across this suggested edit on an answer in the review queue today...

edit diff changing "dude" to "person"

I actually paused for a second, because I've never seen anything like this...

I can see what the editor's intent is, but is it really a goal of Stack Overflow to "homogenize" older posts like this? My base instinct is to reject this edit as "No improvement whatsoever", but I don't want to appear "intolerant", for the lack of a better word...

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  • 49
    It actually fits: 'This edit does not make the post even a little bit easier to read, easier to find, more accurate or more accessible. Changes are either completely superfluous or actively harm readability.' perfectly.
    – Script47
    Commented Aug 30, 2018 at 16:04
  • 16
    I predicted these upon seeing the CoC and have seen one already: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/372368/… . Commented Aug 31, 2018 at 2:04
  • 14
    A hypothetical: I wonder if the editor would be as quick to edit if the variable name was girl.
    – user3458
    Commented Aug 1, 2019 at 15:43

9 Answers 9

105

No, that's not a legitimate change.

Why? It has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with the code. Simply put, you can not guarantee that the code change will have the effect you expect it to, and even if you could, you can not guarantee that you will not make a mistake!

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  • 26
    You should add that this nonsense also distracts from the real problems that SO is concerned of, and that's problems with any sort of code...
    – Robidu
    Commented Aug 30, 2018 at 22:29
  • 3
    Changing just the variable name, in this specific case, cannot possibly cause any issues.
    – APerson
    Commented Sep 2, 2018 at 5:46
  • 3
    @APerson it can if the variable name is inadvertently changed to a reserved word. Commented Sep 2, 2018 at 10:19
  • 6
    @RobertColumbia "in this specific case"
    – APerson
    Commented Sep 3, 2018 at 2:13
76

The edit was inappropriate for several reasons

The word "dude" is already gender-neutral

If the purpose of the edit was to avoid using a masculine name for a variable that refers to people who may not be masculine, it is misguided as "dude" refers to people of any sex (see https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/282694/is-dude-becoming-gender-neutral).

Changing the name of a variable can break existing code

The code that was posted is unlikely to be the only code that uses the variable named dude (the code doesn't even include a declaration of the variable). While a user should understand that the new code implies changing all occurrences of dude to person, that should at least be pointed out in the post.

person may not be a good choice for the variable name

I understand that it is possible to have a variable of type Person named person. Some programmers have no problem doing that and do so routinely, others prefer not to and go to lengths to name the variable something other than its type. The OP chose the second approach and I think we should respect that.

We have better things to do

There are plenty of old posts that really need to be edited. Even if you disagree with me and think this edit is appropriate, let's fix the larger problems first.

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    With regards to breaking existing code, this could be an answer where the question itself used dude, or perhaps a question where the OP used dude and then answers are using something else
    – Tas
    Commented Aug 30, 2018 at 22:39
  • 8
  • 4
    So they've grandfathered out 'dudette'?
    – user4039065
    Commented Aug 31, 2018 at 18:50
  • 3
    And in the "we have better things to do" category, edit reviewers have better things to do than to review this kind of nonsense. Such edit proposals should be rejected to discourage the editor from pushing more of them into the queue. Commented Aug 31, 2018 at 19:25
  • 8
    Suggestion: don't claim dude is gender neutral. It's pretty cut and dry: dude (male), dudette (female).
    – user2026256
    Commented Aug 31, 2018 at 20:11
  • 12
    @Physics-Compute I've never heard anyone use 'dudette' in a serious tone. Commented Aug 31, 2018 at 20:40
  • 3
    @Physics-Compute, I think "chick" is a more frequently used female equivalent of "dude". I agree "dude" is NOT gender neutral. ("guys" also gets mislabeled as gender neutral by many people, so I often use "gals" as gender neutral haha)
    – Reed
    Commented Jun 22, 2019 at 19:11
51

Further to the other posts pointing out that dude is already gender neutral, the post was 9 years old, and it's a general waste of a reviewers time, I'd like to add one more point;

Answers.

Most answers will reference the example made in the question. Now any answer on that question that referenced the dude variable has become unclear, confusing, and less relevant.

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    @heath3n - I'm just saying that the goal of this editor wasn't even valid, as they changed a gender neutral term to another one. I personally think it doesn't matter, especially in code.
    – Shadow
    Commented Aug 31, 2018 at 0:01
  • Actually this edit was proposed on an answer, not the question itself. Commented Aug 31, 2018 at 5:26
  • @AndréKool I did miss that detail. I think this advice is still valid, but not for the specific example given. (Assuming of course the question didn't mention this variable first anyway)
    – Shadow
    Commented Sep 2, 2018 at 14:22
45

May I interject and say, very possibly, that the suggested edit was possibly not made in good faith but was an overt political act of rebellion. Whether it was a liberal stance or an anti-liberal one, that is difficult to tell, but I can definitely imagine it to be the work of a dissident. Someone who wants to impose their political view point. The term "dude" is utterly inoffensive, it is a friendly American English term for a man, and nowadays for women also.

I would have rejected that edit if it had appeared on EL&U if only because it changed the author's intention, and that is not on.

The user is free to never use the term dude in their life but never have I heard anyone accusing the word "dude" of being sexist. This isn't about rejecting inclusivity, it's about respecting an author's or programmer's choice of expression. Unfortunately, the accompanying rejecting message was worded too harshly and was also totally inappropriate, there are better and kinder ways to reject a suggested edit. Selecting the following reason

spam or vandalism
This edit defaces the post in order to promote a product or service, or is deliberately destructive

was a mistake. A more accurate and kinder way to reject that suggested edit would have been to choose

  • no improvement whatsoever
    This edit does not make the post even a little bit easier to read, easier to find, more accurate or more accessible. Changes are either completely superfluous or actively harm readability.

OR

  • clearly conflicts with author's intent
    This edit deviates from the original intent of the post. Even edits that must make drastic changes should strive to preserve the goals of the post's owner.
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    @CharlieBrumbaugh I was right, it is political. The user is free to never use the term dude in their life but never have I heard anyone accusing the word "dude" of being sexist. This isn't about rejecting inclusivity, it's about respecting an author's or programmer's choice of expression. Although, the accompanying rejecting message was worded too harshly, there are better and kinder ways to reject a suggested edit.
    – Mari-Lou A
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 22:06
  • @mari-LouA does it matter? The two choices are: accept the edit and life goes on as normal for everyone involved, or reject the edit, and alienate a new contributor, cause an uproar, and have nothing to show for it but that we are insular and unwelcoming to new contributors. If your goal is a thriving and healthy community, you accept the edit, say thank you, and continue on about your day. If your goal is to be “right” and not care how that affects the larger community, then reject it.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 22:14
  • I've just realized that I've posted an answer to a question that was posted a year ago but the tweet in the link above is dated 30 July? What?
    – Mari-Lou A
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 22:14
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    MariLouA: The discussion will go on forever ;-) @GeorgeStocker I find it questionable how you turn the tables here. From my observation, "being right" is the primary goal of many (maybe not all) people who propose changes like this (and when they mobilize the twitter mob when things aren't going the way they want, this tells you a lot). The edit (and similar ones) do have zero technical (!) value. We could now debate their value on "inclusiveness", and I have a strong opinion here, but reviewers should be free to reject an edit that they consider unnecessary. That's what the review is for.
    – Marco13
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 22:18
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    The new answers to this question bumped it. This is likely why you saw it in the active tab. Tim's answer appears to be the new policy setter, in response to the tweet. Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 22:18
  • 13
    @GeorgeStocker thank you posting a comment and explaining your point of view but I formally disagree. An edit should improve the legibility of a post, it should fix typos, improve the formatting, make it easier to read and understand. If a post includes code, I imagine the error must be left alone, and users post their answers explaining where the error lies. If replacing "dude" with person makes the code better than that should have been said so in an answer, not in a suggested edit.
    – Mari-Lou A
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 22:19
  • 10
    @StoryTeller Not Twitter again? (throws her hands up in Bernie Sanders style)
    – Mari-Lou A
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 22:24
  • 3
    Yes, sadly, again. Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 22:26
  • @mari-loua you’re welcome. Ultimately we take our cue of what is acceptable from Stack Overflow the company. It’s always been that way. They own the property and set the vision. We are the ones who tend the farm land, but we don’t own the land.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 22:33
  • @GeorgeStocker I'm just curious but could you confirm, the person who tweeted their perplessity said that the accompanying message rejecting their edit staed deliberately destructive is that true? Was that the message? Was the term destructive actually used?
    – Mari-Lou A
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 22:39
  • 2
    Yes, @Mari-LouA - it's part of the default "spam or vandalism" rejection reason. Which, I hope we can agree, doesn't apply in this case.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 22:44
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    @Mari-LouA You can see for yourself, here's the suggested edit in question. Note that this twitter-highlighted edit was a different edit than the one that spawned this question originally.
    – Davy M
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 22:58
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    @Shog9 Still...you got to hand it to that user/twitterer, they probably knew asking about their rejected edit on meta would have got them nowhere but going on social media and tweeting about it would. And see just how quickly the team reacted. In reflection, the action Catija took was probably the right one but this is a dangerous route, SO is only inviting future trouble. Anyone using the trigger word inclusivity on social media will know they can affect real change in a company's policies.
    – Mari-Lou A
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 23:34
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    @Mari-LouA the real tragedy is that it deepens my feeling of being excluded from SO...
    – VLAZ
    Commented Aug 1, 2019 at 8:51
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    @GeorgeStocker "First they came for dudes, and I did nothing because I was not a dude". I agree that doing nothing is an easier option. It's also a long-term disastrous one. This is a slippery slope at the end of which lay severe warnings and user banning for using words like "master" or, yes, "dude". It will eventually get to you, no matter how full of goodwill you are or how careful you are.
    – user3458
    Commented Aug 1, 2019 at 15:57
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Whether using any gender-specific words whatsoever constitutes discrimination/abuse/you-name-it is a completely subjective opinion, and a highly politically-charged subject (at least, in the US where SE is headquartered AFAICS). As such, you can't be "right" here, you can only be conforming to some agenda.

So, stick to the letter.

The Code of Conduct does not mandate gender-neutral language everywhere including code (yet).

So, regardless of your, or the edit's author's, stance on this heated debate, that post doesn't violate anything as it is and the edit is thus unneeded.

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-33

I'd originally answered this by saying that one should remove offensive language from code blocks, but that changing variable names and things around was probably not the best use of the peer review system. I've changed my opinion on that, and this is why:

  • I originally thought "Well, variables? like .. $variableOne? and tried to imagine the most egregious extent that they might be gendered and reinforcing of a bad stereotype and I wasn't coming up with much. In reality, there are enough cases where many default to men instead of a broader sense of people when we make assumptions about who writes code.

  • I don't want to set policy that discourages editing posts to be more overtly welcoming. And I think that's a good enough reason to enter into an edit.

  • You will hear me talk about not wanting to gloss over history, but that's (as many pointed out) why we have revisions. In 100 years as people look back on us, it's all there if you dig.

So note, my primary concern is still make good use of reviewer's time. If you enter into an edit to make the language more overtly inclusive, great, but please try to fix everything else that might need shining up too.

Also, it's usually not a great idea to edit code in a question beyond fixing formatting, because that could obfuscate the actual cause of the problem.

And, well, don't get into edit wars.

Newer folks, the threshold at which we consider an edit a little too trivial to take time in the suggested edit queue is still rather hazy. That's because when we launched the feature, so many tiny but helpful corrections almost resulted in a system overload, and a backlog that took a huge amount of time to process. It's not that we don't want the content to improve, it's that we're working within the limitations of a collaborative system.

Hence, if your edit is declined and you really feel like it's necessary to keep parts of our content open for anyone to identify with, you can reach out to us or flag it for moderator attention (use the "other" flag and explain the need for the edit).

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    (No downvote, but) the comment that was made to your previous answer is still relevant, though: You are (and have been) talking about "offensive". If you examine some political movements closely, you will notice that basically everything is "offensive" to someone (or at least, some people are eagerly claiming to be offended by things). You used the word "folks", which currently seems to be on its way to become one of these "inappropriate, offensive" words. And while we're at it: Someone should go on and edit the "second worst n-word" out of wikilivres.org/wiki/I_Have_a_Dream ...
    – Marco13
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 17:43
  • 39
    There's a deeper issue here. There was this tweet about this edit, which is apparently no longer OK to decline. I would have picked "No Improvement" myself, but still declined it. Is this now SO policy that gendered code is not welcoming? Is declining edits that "fixes" genders also unwelcoming?
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 18:58
  • FWIW @Machavity Tim mentioned a need to review the policy on edits to cover that kind of perspective (accessibility and inclusivity edits) in a followup Tweet.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 19:08
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    I'm gonna say this here - it's not worth the edit war, and I too would've declined it if I were reviewing edits. If y'all want to overrule the opinion of other maintainers on this, then that's fine too. I suppose the main rub in the case that @Machavity highlighted (which I read this morning as well) was that this was a Twitter request, as opposed to any kind of discussion that could've been had here. The community approving or declining those reviews missed an opportunity to explain their position.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 19:55
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    I think it's also worth considering -- this is an answer on a Q&A site we're talking about. This isn't official copy, or a dev doc, or a language spec, where words/terminology would be more appropriately scrutinized to not be biased toward such things. If this were SO Documentation, for example, I would've approved this no doubt, but here on SO Q&A, I likely would have rejected the edit as I mentioned in a response to that tweet (though for different reasons, of course. It was clearly rejected using the wrong reasons which quite possibly led to the editor making the tweet in the first place).
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 20:02
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    So, someone makes an "inclusivity" edit, it gets rejected, then pings a Product Manager on twitter about it? I mean, I get that the edit may have value to some, but I also get why reviewers rejected it... But to take that to twitter, resulting in this meta question being revived again? Seems excessive. The editor should've just flagged the post the edit was submitted on. That's standard procedure for edits that were rejected while they (arguably) shouldn't have.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 20:59
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    @Cerbrus: Yes, that workflow is horribly broken. Someone should start a conversation about it.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 21:23
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    @Makoto Does "broken" refer to the intended workflow, or the one that can be observed in this example? Whether the edit was "appropriate" in any way ... that's beyond the scope of these comments. Regardless of that: Twitter is used as nothing more and nothing less than a political (and I'd even say ideological) weapon here. The rules for editing are stated at stackoverflow.com/help/privileges/edit . There is no need to respond to such a tweet in such an apologetic tone.
    – Marco13
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 21:57
  • 3
    @Marco13: I'm going to resist the temptation to call Twitter out of its name or its scope, but I suspect that this is a more innocent disconnect. A user makes an edit, isn't aware of (or isn't comfortable with) posting to Meta to discuss it, so they ping someone on Twitter to make the change instead. Ideally, we'd want to coax them into coming to Meta instead to have a conversation. The obvious risk that this runs is that the person doesn't get the outcome they want, but having the discussion here rather than there would be better in my mind.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 22:04
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    @Makoto: I'd prefer a mod flag over a meta discussion... Not every rejected edit needs a discussion.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 22:12
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    @Cerbrus: This has happened before. Not necessarily the edit workflow, but the fact that someone has held a conversation regarding a problem with something on a Stack Exchange site and has had it resolved via social media is a recurring pattern. That needs to be discussed.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 22:17
  • 4
    Yea, I know, and I agree.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 22:18
-34

I think this is a valid edit. As Ruby is a dynamically typed language, variables are often named as the lowercase version of their class. In this particular case, the answerer is instantiating a new instance of a Person class. To me, person is a much clearer name than dude. It's not obvious at first glance what type dude is. On the other hand, it is immediately clear what type person is.

The variable rename makes the code sample more idiomatic Ruby. If this happens to also make the answer more gender neutral, isn't that a good thing?

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    I know your answer is downvoted, but I appreciate some insight from a Ruby developer. This was something I pondered in this scenario.
    – dwirony
    Commented Sep 1, 2018 at 3:24
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    Good point, but in this case edit comment says : "Removed gender".
    – Traxo
    Commented Sep 3, 2018 at 6:25
-54

Edits that improve the post should be allowed. It doesn't matter if it's a small edit or a large edit.

You're sitting there, and you see someone cares enough to change the gender to a neutral gender. That's great, someone cares! Use that care and channel it; use it to make further improvements to the post.

Sometimes we get caught up in 'pointless' edits and forget that for the person making the edit, it matters to them. Instead of saying "No, but", say "Yes, and". Add your own improvement alongside theirs.

We do not have so many editors that we can afford to be picky about what we allow to be improved on a post. If someone takes the time to care about an issue enough to spend part of their day on it, then we should encourage that and help make sure they come back for future edits.

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    It's not worth an edit war - that much is for certain - but edits that change this facet of a question or answer still aren't that substantial. Good and lasting edits matter to us, too.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 19:50
  • @makato no doubt. Many hands make light work. We need more hands. Encourage them.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 19:52
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    I'd much rather encourage them to put the bucket of paint down and address the very large crack in the reactor, at this point.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 19:55
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    "Instead of saying "No, but", say "Yes, and"" That doesn't really fly if you fundamentally disagree, though.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 20:48
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    "We do not have so many <...> make sure they come back for future edits." One could argue that, if all they do is change gendered text in code, then there's nothing being improved. Edits that don't improve posts have historically been discouraged. This answer is based on the assertion that the edits improve the post. That's debatable.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 20:51
  • 11
    "cause an uproar" If every rejected edit would cause an uproar, this site wouldn't last long... We're not accepting edits just because it'd be unfriendly to reject them, are we? Edit should be accepted because they improve the post...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 21:50
  • 19
    While I agree with the edit being a very small improvement, I downvoted as I heavily disagree with "We do not have so many editors that we can afford to be picky about what we allow to be improved on a post". In my experience, we have a lot of editors, but most of them only create a lot of useless noise - at least when I still reviewed the suggested edits queue it was rare to see something worthwhile, but instead I saw tons of drivel, well-meant edits to off-topic posts, small spelling fixes which ignore other glaring issues with posts, etc. Encouraging more trivial edits isn't useful IMO.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Aug 1, 2019 at 9:02
-59

This is why there are so few women in coding. The fact that you need this many comments and answers to decide whether making the language welcoming to all readers is worth a few seconds is wasting even more valuable editing time.

The editor definitely felt these changes are worth it. No dudes are upset at being called people. But some people are obviously offended at being called dudes.

Just accept it and move on.

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    So now we have to try to word everything so no one is ever offended? Yeah, no.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Sep 4, 2018 at 15:57
  • No. Just let other people edit them if they feel the need to.
    – Adam B
    Commented Sep 4, 2018 at 16:13
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    I don't believe you're understanding why we don't edit code. It would help greatly if you didn't discount the core arguments, and instead reduce it to, "Just let others edit anything."
    – fbueckert
    Commented Sep 4, 2018 at 16:24
  • You can edit Words,but i don't think editing code is a good idea, natural gender in the code is not required,but maybe the words OUTSIDE code is.
    – okie
    Commented Oct 24, 2019 at 23:32

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