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(Despite a title similar to Is the new Code of Conduct over the top?, this one's focus is different.)

I agree in principle with the addition of the Code and how it's linked to in the help as clarification: the previous short "be nice" as the complete policy has proven to be insufficient to get everyone on the same page.

However, its current wording seems to be takings things too far, thus making it prone to abuse in the other direction. These are the red flags it raised for me when reading through it:

  • The formulations are extremily repressive. "No X." "No Y." "No Z." "We do not tolerate..." Report early, report often. Be kind and friendly, or else!

    • With this repressive mindset expressed by the Code, SE -- intentionally or unknowingly -- is pressurizing moderators into being overzealous in its enforcement, so they will tend to shoot down anything flagged, on the assumption that there always exists some twisted interpretation and someone who will claim that it's somehow offensive to them. (After all, it's much better to quietly disappear something than risk having the wrath of SE upon your head for undermining their key campaign.)

      • True, moderators were generally shooting down anything flagged before, too. But there was an unspoken guarantee to use common sense when handling the flags, which made flaggers restrain themselves. But now, the CoC declares political correctness top priority over everything.
        • Which includes SO's purpose and core values because the Code says nothing about them whatsoever and how the campaign relates to them -- which means that the CoC writers never thought of it, so it doesn't as far as they are concerned, "friendly" language is all that they care about. (At least, that's what the result of their work effectively says, whether they meant it or not.)
        • Now, political correctness is an extremily flimsy and subjective grounds for accusations that anything whatsoever could be chalked up to. So, a mandate to enforce it above all else now prohibits using common sense and forces mods to take all flags at face value.
          • Which effectively gives a flagger an official guarantee that any their "unfriendliness" or "discrimination" accusations, however ridiculous, will most probably be acted upon, and makes anyone posting anything guilty by default.
    • As a consequence, people will flat-out ignore flawed posts out of fear that any comment that so much as allows a thought that it's less than ideal can be labelled "unkind".

      • Moderators don't even need to actually be overzealous for the effect to arise: it's enough if users think that they may. The Code's current attitude certainly gives the green light to such an interpretation.
  • It mandates adding lots of noise into messages. Look at the examples: each of them is using three lines of text for what could be expressed in one! (I'm not defending those "expressions", only saying that the suggested ones can be of a comparable length, too.)1

    • To show how this is a problem, first a little background:

      • World cultures can generally be classified into "polite" cultures and "direct" cultures. "Polite" cultures tend to insert obligatory niceties into everything and speak in code for relation honing; "direct" cultures tend to ditch redundancies and speak their mind to efficiently pass information.2
        • Americans appear to be one of the more "polite" cultures in the world,3 so the Code's authors may not even see anything unusual about the phrasing they chose!
      • Online cultures tend to be more direct than their offline counterparts. The Tact Filters article that the linked post refers to ascribes that to "nerdiness" of the hacker culture. But from experience, it rather looks like that it's because there's less "relation honing" going on and there's more communication to do than in live socializing -- so time is much more precious, and as a consequence, in online communities, you show respect by respecting others' time rather than by saying niceties. It's also because written media is less effective than live communication in bringing one's point across,4 necessitating making oneself more clear to compensate. For global communities, cultural differences contribute to this, too, not only because different cultures "even out", but because the unspoken codes used by "polite" cultures are very localized and wildly different, thus becoming unusable outside of their confines.
    • Now, the examples are at least twice as long as the text they are supposed to replace. So it can be said they force at least a 100% "niceness tax" on any communication. This is way too high for a global online community (and doubly so for an IT global online community) and thus would be seen by the average member as a millstone around their neck, again making them unwilling to participate.

      • E.g. how would you react if this post was 2 times as long while carrying the same amount of information?
        • (I would probably write it off as not showing enough effort at clarity ("too long, didn't read").)
      • And, as said in the note,1 this cannot simply be written off as just an exaggeration for clarity.
      • This even contradicts the core values of SE which say "get straight to the point, avoid any noise".

If the above reasoning is correct, the Code's language ought to be toned down to fix the above overkills while carrying the same general message. Unless the described consequences are the intention, of course.

  • Actually, fixing just the general language is enough as per note 1.

(I'm intentionally reserving any concrete fix suggetions for answers and/or another post and am asking for principal agreement for start.)

(Likewise, I ask you to leave aside the Code's message itself -- I know that there are disagreements about it, but adding them to the mix here will derail the discussion and undermine the current suggestion. With SE's fanatical stance on the venue, promoting any corrections is hard enough as it is.)


1The formulations' overshoot could be dismissed as merely an exaggeration for clarity, but the Code's harsh authoritarian tone suggests that any infractions are going to be dealt with with extreme prejudice, so it's risky to try to be smarter than the lawmakers here.

2Here's an article by the International Ombudsman Association outlining the pros and cons of both approaches and the problems that arise when they clash.

3Lately, they seem to be trying to take up a more direct style strictly in business settings to overcome its deficiencies.

4In live communication, you also have powerful things like tone, mimics, body language and the environment for the presentation at your disposal.

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  • 6
    The increased verbosity is one of the things I don't like about the new CoC. Commented Aug 10, 2018 at 14:30
  • 13
    Honestly, SO has said that the change to the CoC isn't a change to how mods are acting, it's just changing the wording of the document to reflect what mods were already doing, and from what I can see this is largely true. Mods have mostly been handling comment flags in this exact same way for years and years, they just haven't been vocal about it. But they've always been deleting comments like these, they just haven't been drawing attention to the fact that they've been doing it, and people just don't often notice when comments silently go away.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 10, 2018 at 14:40
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    The provided example are also twice as helpful as the text they're supposed to replace. Turns out that the old comments were just complaints that didn't do anything to help the post. IMO, the "word tax" you are pointing out is actually just an emphasis on pointing out specific problems instead of merely complaining.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Aug 10, 2018 at 14:49
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    @ryanyuyu Including a bunch of pleasantries that has nothing to do with the actual content of the post is not "pointing out specific problems". We also see lots of examples of mods deleting comments that are pointing out specific problems with a post, and that are entirely polite and professional.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 10, 2018 at 14:54
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    @S.L.Barth Yes, that's one of the effects of the mods being more vocal about telling people that they have been deleting useful, polite, and professional comments, if those comments contain a criticism or anything else someone might not want to be told, rather than only deleting comments that are abusive.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 10, 2018 at 14:55
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    @Servy I think this is problem with implementation not with the actual CoC. For some reason, people have been putting way too much emphasis on "pleasantries" instead of just treating people professionally. Pleasantries don't inherently make an unfriendly comment friendly. I agree that the 4th example is needlessly wordy, but the other 3 examples are simply informative.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Aug 10, 2018 at 14:58
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    @ryanyuyu The big problem with the CoC is the term "friendly". Because lots of comments are polite, professional, constructive, and useful, but they're all business, and get straight to the point, and so people consider that not "friendly". The examples of bad comments in the CoC aren't so much examples of good comments being deleted, it's the examples we see in other meta questions, SO's blog posts, etc.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 10, 2018 at 15:18
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    @ryanyuyu This is where we get back to this problem. The mods are going to be deleting comments that say things people don't want to hear, even if they're useful, professional, or helpful. They're now just telling people that that's how things work more vocally.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 10, 2018 at 15:26
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    @Servy yes there are going to be problems. I just don't think these problems are going to be a big deal. I also personally think that the upside vastly outweighs the inevitable mishandled outliers.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Aug 10, 2018 at 15:29
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    @Servy: I agree with your assertion that mods have been doing it this way for years, but disagree with your assertion that this results in large-scale deletion of comments that are helpful but terse. We don't expect helpful language couched in cloying friendliness; we're deleting snark, not brevity.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 10, 2018 at 17:20
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    @NicolBolas This is not the only evidence. This is a trend. From stackoverflow.blog/2018/04/26/…, to stackoverflow.blog/2018/06/21/…, to the CoC, SE spokespeople are getting ever more fanatical and disconnected from reality. Articles by Joe Friend are exactly like joelonsoftware.com/2008/05/01/architecture-astronauts-take-over . I think Joel just abstrained himself and now ppl who don't know the site or care about it and only do this for the money are at helm. Commented Aug 10, 2018 at 21:13
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    @ivan_pozdeev: I'm sorry, wanting people to not be jerks is "fanatical and disconnected from reality" now? Indeed, the "trend" you cite seems to be moving away from the "fanatical and disconnected from reality". The Welcoming blog post suggested a lot of concerning things, but the CoC and the new flags aren't moving in those directions. So what's the problem? Commented Aug 10, 2018 at 21:16
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    @Servy "Mods have mostly been handling comment flags in this exact same way for years and years" Yes, but the official standpoint was to only delete unconstructive things, which is something based on common sense, making both flaggers and mods restrain themselves. By proclaiming political correctness as the governing principle instead, the policy officially prohibited using common sense here because political correctness is a mass hysteria. Commented Aug 10, 2018 at 22:18
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    @ivan_pozdeev: "Are they addressing them? No" So, why are they working on a new Ask Question page intended to encourage people to ask better questions? "By proclaiming political correctness as the governing principle instead, the policy officially prohibited using common sense here because political correctness is a mass hysteria." Politeness is mass hysteria. War is Peace. Slavery is Freedom. I get it. Commented Aug 10, 2018 at 23:00
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    @NicolBolas I'm only talking about events relevant to the "friendliness" campaign. The current CoC is making politeness into a mass hysteria -- if you're okay with not being able to say that a lacking post is lacking, vote away. Just don't blame me later for not having had convinced you. Commented Aug 11, 2018 at 0:58

1 Answer 1

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Here's one early bird example of the Political Correctness Gone Mad trend that I've predicted in this question: https://stackoverflow.com/review/suggested-edits/20606504. My predictions are already coming true.

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    I was about to post an excessively sarcastic comment. Instead, I will ask why you are assuming that the new code of conduct is to blame for one (apparently anecdotal) case of an unnecessary edit.
    – E_net4
    Commented Aug 17, 2018 at 15:53
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    @E_net4 I've never seen any suggested edits justified by political correctness considerations before (since 2011), and nothing whatsoever with justification at this level of flimsiness. Before the CoC, an edit explanation like this would be laughable. That's enough proof of a connection. Commented Aug 17, 2018 at 16:07
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    "have the guts for that" would be a better replacement if they wanted to get rid of balls Commented Aug 31, 2018 at 19:57
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    @Jeremy the idea was to imply that setting up those tools is a very nontrivial task that most won't go for the trouble of. SO is not corporate talks and a little humor is usually tolerated from what I could see, so I saw nothing bad here. We can create a community poll to find out where the line (currently) is. Commented Aug 31, 2018 at 19:59

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